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Dodge/undodgeable changes

Cold91
Cold91
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With the changes to certain skills making them dodgeable such as Whip, cliff racer, soul harvest, etc. it comes to mind that some serious changes to the dodge mechanic also need to be applied.
For a long time players have been able to crutch on passive dodge/miss chance skills or gear. I say crutch because 100% mitigation is absolutely the best defensive mechanic in game, and being able to passively dodge damage with little to no skill is crutching. It is primarily due to the angry qq of players crutching on passive dodge chance that so many skills have been nerfed to be dodgeable.
In order to return balance any/all passive dodge and miss chance should be removed from the game. All dodging should be from dodge rolling. Players who wish to build a "dodge defense" taking advantage of the only 100% mitigation mechanic in the game, should be by actively making the decision to dodge via roll dodge. It makes no sense to have passive dodge and miss mechanics in a game with an active mechanic to dodge, it should be one or another.

TL;DR
Remove all dodge and miss chance skills, gear sets, etc from game. Dodge rolling should be the only way to dodge in game.
Edited by Cold91 on January 31, 2018 9:17PM
  • Surak73
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    I wouldn't recomend to remove all dodge chances: dodge is a fundamental mitigation mechanics, and should stay. However, the problem of chances must be addressed, cause a - let's say - 15% dodge chance should mean that you read something like "Hit! Hit! Dodge! Hit! Hit! Hit! Hit!", and not - as it is now - something like "Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Hit! Dodge"...

    I would say that roll dodge should allow to avoid only 1 hit (aka: learn to roll and decide wisely when it's time to roll), and major evasion should give a REAL 15% chance. Maybe even a 20% chance, but real, not fictional...
  • Alaztor91
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    I could be wrong but IIRC the problem was(or still is idk) that shuffle would give you the 15% dodge chance, but whenever that dodge chance ''procced'' it would proc a dodge frame that would dodge all dodgeable stuff in that time frame, instead of just dodging one attack.

    Is that the problem that people usually complain about or is it something else lol?
  • vyndral13preub18_ESO
    vyndral13preub18_ESO
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    I have never liked proc mechanics in pvp. I guess I got burned by windfury to many times in WoW. They seem like a fun and interesting thing until you sit down and think about it. A random number generator just decided who wins this match.

    The way dodge has been designed in this game is just not good. But that is something else altogether.
  • Wreuntzylla
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    Alaztor91 wrote: »
    I could be wrong but IIRC the problem was(or still is idk) that shuffle would give you the 15% dodge chance, but whenever that dodge chance ''procced'' it would proc a dodge frame that would dodge all dodgeable stuff in that time frame, instead of just dodging one attack.

    Is that the problem that people usually complain about or is it something else lol?

    I think it's the same issue as the first round, resurrected.

    A little background.

    In the beginning... 100% dodge was only possible with the crusader set. There is a 0.3 sec CD between dodge rolls in which a target can be hit, and the difference with and without Crusader was huge.

    Then suddenly perma dodge became a thing without Crusader. I think I posted a screenshot on here of my being unable to hit a particular player for some 30sec. I was in a group of three and this player not only dodged all of my attacks, he dodged all attacks for about a minute. It was so absurd that I eventually decided to just spam cripple and log the fight.

    To cut off any side tracks, my addons show Blessed armor as "miss" and not "dodge," so it was not that. In any case, the Blessed proc is a debuff with a cooldown such that it can only apply to one person at a time.

    There was a rumor the 100% dodge chance had to do with animation cancelling while dodging or some such. In any event, one day it just stopped. A few weeks later is inexplicably resumed. Not only resumed, but suddenly people on horseback were dodging 3 attacks in a row (all the attacks you can get in when perfectly placed as a sniper).

    ZoS eventually lowered the dodge chance. That nerf did absolutely nothing. If anything, the pool of people able to reach 100% dodge for extended periods of time has grown.

    It would seem to be a triggered event. At one time I thought maybe the dodge chance was scaling with CP like primary resource pools do. However, you can fight different people with identical builds and playstyles, even dodge rolling at the same frequency, and one always takes some damage, and the other doesn't.

    My biggest beef is that dodged attacks cost stam. If ZoS is going to permit 100% dodge, this should be changed.
  • Kalante
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    Remove shuffle, nerf bol, and make shields critible. Problem solved.
    Edited by Kalante on January 31, 2018 10:56PM
  • akredon_ESO
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    I think they should look into making Hard cast skills undodgeable. I feel like in PVP there is to much avoidance
  • Leandor
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    Surak73 wrote: »
    I wouldn't recomend to remove all dodge chances: dodge is a fundamental mitigation mechanics, and should stay. However, the problem of chances must be addressed, cause a - let's say - 15% dodge chance should mean that you read something like "Hit! Hit! Dodge! Hit! Hit! Hit! Hit!", and not - as it is now - something like "Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Hit! Dodge"...

    I would say that roll dodge should allow to avoid only 1 hit (aka: learn to roll and decide wisely when it's time to roll), and major evasion should give a REAL 15% chance. Maybe even a 20% chance, but real, not fictional...

    "Well, we looked at the logs and serverwide, dodge chance from evade comes out to 14.92%, counting all players irrespective of having evade up or not. So our metrics show that the drop chance of impenetrable monster helmets dodge chance is correctly calculated."
  • PlagueSD
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    Leave my Hist Bark set alone!!!!
  • LMar
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    There's various new mechanics being introduced on what can can be dodged and what can be blocked. I suggest people go and read it in the PTS forums. Eg aoes and "explosions"
    "If a stick of fish is a fish stick, it will stick like other fish sticks stick"
    "Taller races now sit in chairs correctly"
  • spencer2361
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    Put dodge chance in a cp tree and have it max at 8%
  • xeNNNNN
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    Surak73 wrote: »
    I wouldn't recomend to remove all dodge chances: dodge is a fundamental mitigation mechanics, and should stay. However, the problem of chances must be addressed, cause a - let's say - 15% dodge chance should mean that you read something like "Hit! Hit! Dodge! Hit! Hit! Hit! Hit!", and not - as it is now - something like "Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Hit! Dodge"...

    I would say that roll dodge should allow to avoid only 1 hit (aka: learn to roll and decide wisely when it's time to roll), and major evasion should give a REAL 15% chance. Maybe even a 20% chance, but real, not fictional...

    This ^

    I find it totally ridiculous that there are builds out there specifically "dodgeplars" and "dodgeblades" that will take absolutely no damage due too a less optimal amount of dodge chance which makes no sense as most of the time as Surak has said even with a small amount of dodge chance you seemingly dodge nearly everything thrown at you.

    I know this actually happens as I have my own stamblade for pvp. Its disgustingly easy to avoid damage consistently by rolling and I dont even have a ton of dodge chance hell half the time I dont even need to roll because of shuffle. Its dumb. There should be a trade off for it AND it MUST actually be relevant to the amount of dodge chance you have.

    hell id be up for that actually being a base stat of the game, like crit or something.
    Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.
  • Ankael07
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    Just change passive dodge chance into passive negating of the dodge cost. Adjust the percentage accordingly
    If you want me to reply to your comment type @Ankael07 in it.
  • xenowarrior92eb17_ESO
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    @Kalante Nightblades say hello (Mirage)
  • Wreuntzylla
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    Leandor wrote: »
    Surak73 wrote: »
    I wouldn't recomend to remove all dodge chances: dodge is a fundamental mitigation mechanics, and should stay. However, the problem of chances must be addressed, cause a - let's say - 15% dodge chance should mean that you read something like "Hit! Hit! Dodge! Hit! Hit! Hit! Hit!", and not - as it is now - something like "Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Dodge! Hit! Dodge"...

    I would say that roll dodge should allow to avoid only 1 hit (aka: learn to roll and decide wisely when it's time to roll), and major evasion should give a REAL 15% chance. Maybe even a 20% chance, but real, not fictional...

    "Well, we looked at the logs and serverwide, dodge chance from evade comes out to 14.92%, counting all players irrespective of having evade up or not. So our metrics show that the drop chance of impenetrable monster helmets dodge chance is correctly calculated."

    Is that even a partially real quote?

    Who cares about server wide. I just want them to take a look at the outliers...
  • Drakkdjinn
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    Remove CP from PvP, sorted.
  • Vizier
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    Maybe there needs to be an attack speed CP star that reduces an enemy's dodge chance much like Spell and Physical Penetration.
  • Vapirko
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    Shuffle is one of the only things medium armor has going for it. You’re idea would ruin a lot of things. ZOS is making these changes because right now medium armor is the worst armor type, it’s actually balancing combat out. Stop crutching off of undodgebale skills.
    Edited by Vapirko on February 3, 2018 12:32PM
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