Was the Storm Atronach Ninja nerfed ?

Feanor · January 2018

I concede the Atro is great on a target dummy now. In the real game? Still trash.

Morvane · February 2018

1) Need physical damage for stamina sorcerer (phys cp also)
2) need to make it movable)

SirMewser · February 2018

Erraln wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ninja nerf status: oh yes.
It has been nerfed and CP only make up for it. We have come to the conclusion, that the damage nerf might come from the way the Atronach scales now, rather than being an actually set up nerf. Which is more CP and stat friendly than before. But without them, significantly weaker than before and being even weaker, is the last thing the Atronach needs.

I do not play non CP, or at least rarely. So I could just ignore all of this and be happy about a slight buff.
However, non CP pvp is very popular and battle grounds are popular as well. So why destroy this ult even more for such a big part of the player base ? Obviously you think that's cool or fair, wrong.

I don't care whether it's fair or unfair, though I admit to not being upset about a performance drop in a game mode I don't play. Your thread is selling the idea that the skill is now weak and not worth using, that the patchnotes implying it could be better to pure specs than before were misinformation, and that isn't the case.

It IS stronger now, and not by a little. 30% buffs are the stuff new builds are made of.

Do you even read?
What you said only applies to players with >300CP in PVE, dueling, and some AvA instances.
What part did you not understand about; new players, vet trials, battlegrounds, non-CP campaigns?

Stop making everything about you.

Other people play this game too.

That statement is the point being made, too bad it had to be blatantly said when it already was obvious.

Erraln · February 2018

SirMewser wrote: »

Do you even read?
What you said only applies to players with >300CP in PVE, dueling, and some AvA instances.
What part did you not understand about; new players, vet trials, battlegrounds, non-CP campaigns?

Stop making everything about you.

Other people play this game too.

That statement is the point being made, too bad it had to be blatantly said when it already was obvious.

A nerf is where the entire curve of an ability's usefulness is changed to be below the previous level. That is not the case here.
A ninja nerf is where this happens without information being given on the subject. That is not the case here.

The OP's premise is false and the screenshots used were misleading; it displays, without divulging full CP/ gearing, a non-critical damage tick comparison. The ultimate now responds to spellcrit damage modifiers (Elfborn, Shadow, Force buffs) when it did not before. That fact accounts for much of its newfound potential. The OP also only displayed a 10% increase in base strength at what is implied to be an endgame gearing/ CP, which misrepresents the new math the ability uses. This quote is partially accurate:

Dracane wrote: »

The best I was able to achieve, was an increase of 10-20%

My own testing only showed a 21% increase of power, base noncrit tick to base noncrit tick, in the Necropotence + Prey setup. However, in Live the crits are locked to 150% base power. PTS crit ticks can be realistically buffed past 180% in common situations (Just Elfborn + Warhorn) and to not mention that difference makes me wonder if the true point of this thread was to get Zenimax to mistakenly buff the skill even further. If it were given even another 15% base strength, to make up for the No-CP to No-CP comparison difference at endgame mage stats, the fully buffed skill on its current PTS curve would be scary. It wouldn't be balanced in the slightest in any CP-enabled situation. It'd be the sort of thing that people would have fun wrecking face with for two weeks, before it gets nerfed into the ground until 2021 when classes are removed.

I'd like to be able to get some use out of the skill this year, and in its current form I will. It doesn't need a buff.... Maybe the curve could be looked at though? If it had a higher strength gain at low stat totals which then petered off approaching endgame, I think more people would be satisfied with the changes.

Feanor · February 2018

There is a reason you see the Atro so seldom and Elemental Rage so often. Whether it was “ninja-nerfed” or not is just semantics. The major downsides of the skill remain even if it is a 20% damage increase in a best case scenario.

Ultimate_Overlord · February 2018

And worst case scenario is a dmg decrease. Nerfing atro for no cp is really strange- was it overperforming there? Can we get an explanation?

Erraln · February 2018

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason you see the Atro so seldom and Elemental Rage so often. Whether it was “ninja-nerfed” or not is just semantics. The major downsides of the skill remain even if it is a 20% damage increase in a best case scenario.

This is the true truth.

Dracane · February 2018

Erraln wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Do you even read?
What you said only applies to players with >300CP in PVE, dueling, and some AvA instances.
What part did you not understand about; new players, vet trials, battlegrounds, non-CP campaigns?

Stop making everything about you.

Other people play this game too.

That statement is the point being made, too bad it had to be blatantly said when it already was obvious.

A nerf is where the entire curve of an ability's usefulness is changed to be below the previous level. That is not the case here.
A ninja nerf is where this happens without information being given on the subject. That is not the case here.

The OP's premise is false and the screenshots used were misleading; it displays, without divulging full CP/ gearing, a non-critical damage tick comparison. The ultimate now responds to spellcrit damage modifiers (Elfborn, Shadow, Force buffs) when it did not before. That fact accounts for much of its newfound potential. The OP also only displayed a 10% increase in base strength at what is implied to be an endgame gearing/ CP, which misrepresents the new math the ability uses. This quote is partially accurate:

Dracane wrote: »

The best I was able to achieve, was an increase of 10-20%

My own testing only showed a 21% increase of power, base noncrit tick to base noncrit tick, in the Necropotence + Prey setup. However, in Live the crits are locked to 150% base power. PTS crit ticks can be realistically buffed past 180% in common situations (Just Elfborn + Warhorn) and to not mention that difference makes me wonder if the true point of this thread was to get Zenimax to mistakenly buff the skill even further. If it were given even another 15% base strength, to make up for the No-CP to No-CP comparison difference at endgame mage stats, the fully buffed skill on its current PTS curve would be scary. It wouldn't be balanced in the slightest in any CP-enabled situation. It'd be the sort of thing that people would have fun wrecking face with for two weeks, before it gets nerfed into the ground until 2021 when classes are removed.

I'd like to be able to get some use out of the skill this year, and in its current form I will. It doesn't need a buff.... Maybe the curve could be looked at though? If it had a higher strength gain at low stat totals which then petered off approaching endgame, I think more people would be satisfied with the changes.

And still you continue being selfish and continue speaking about veteran trials, where your mates buff you. How can you claim, that this represents anything ? Few people will tap into these scenarios.
How can you keep on twisting the truth like this ? It's a stealth nerf, because it has been made significantly weaker for a big part of the player base (WITHOUT being mentioned= Steath nerf) Just after days of pushing, we received an official statement and even that didn't really mention, that the Atronach will be much weaker for everyone who is not perfectly optimized or carried by mates like you. But surely you will keep on denying.

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER · February 2018

any update on this? will it get fixed before the new patch gets live or isnt it considered a bug that the damage is now lower than on the live servers??

most people dont use atro anyways, thats a pretty big sad thing for people like me that love the atro ulti and keep using it over destro ulti

Erraln · February 2018

Dracane wrote: »

Erraln wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Do you even read?
What you said only applies to players with >300CP in PVE, dueling, and some AvA instances.
What part did you not understand about; new players, vet trials, battlegrounds, non-CP campaigns?

Stop making everything about you.

Other people play this game too.

That statement is the point being made, too bad it had to be blatantly said when it already was obvious.

A nerf is where the entire curve of an ability's usefulness is changed to be below the previous level. That is not the case here.
A ninja nerf is where this happens without information being given on the subject. That is not the case here.

The OP's premise is false and the screenshots used were misleading; it displays, without divulging full CP/ gearing, a non-critical damage tick comparison. The ultimate now responds to spellcrit damage modifiers (Elfborn, Shadow, Force buffs) when it did not before. That fact accounts for much of its newfound potential. The OP also only displayed a 10% increase in base strength at what is implied to be an endgame gearing/ CP, which misrepresents the new math the ability uses. This quote is partially accurate:

Dracane wrote: »

The best I was able to achieve, was an increase of 10-20%

My own testing only showed a 21% increase of power, base noncrit tick to base noncrit tick, in the Necropotence + Prey setup. However, in Live the crits are locked to 150% base power. PTS crit ticks can be realistically buffed past 180% in common situations (Just Elfborn + Warhorn) and to not mention that difference makes me wonder if the true point of this thread was to get Zenimax to mistakenly buff the skill even further. If it were given even another 15% base strength, to make up for the No-CP to No-CP comparison difference at endgame mage stats, the fully buffed skill on its current PTS curve would be scary. It wouldn't be balanced in the slightest in any CP-enabled situation. It'd be the sort of thing that people would have fun wrecking face with for two weeks, before it gets nerfed into the ground until 2021 when classes are removed.

I'd like to be able to get some use out of the skill this year, and in its current form I will. It doesn't need a buff.... Maybe the curve could be looked at though? If it had a higher strength gain at low stat totals which then petered off approaching endgame, I think more people would be satisfied with the changes.

And still you continue being selfish and continue speaking about veteran trials, where your mates buff you. How can you claim, that this represents anything ? Few people will tap into these scenarios.
How can you keep on twisting the truth like this ? It's a stealth nerf, because it has been made significantly weaker for a big part of the player base (WITHOUT being mentioned= Steath nerf) Just after days of pushing, we received an official statement and even that didn't really mention, that the Atronach will be much weaker for everyone who is not perfectly optimized or carried by mates like you. But surely you will keep on denying.

Look, it's this simple. They said they changed it, so it's not stealth. It's not weaker in all modes, so it's not a nerf. It's not a stealth nerf.

You seem to think I WANT it to be worse for you and the sub 300 crowd, and I don't. I just don't use the mode it'll be worse in, so I don't care all that much if they manage to tweak the curve. You use it, so you care. That's fine. That doesn't make the topic title accurate.

If they can tweak it to be stronger for everyone (except hybrids? that was the goal, right?) I'd be pleasantly surprised.

Remember, nerf invokes turning bullets into styrofoam, not blunting a knife slightly.

Now, what are you using the skill for that the loss of 15% beam damage on targets in Non-CP is so terrible? I was under the impression it was mostly used as a moderate form of area denial or distraction against players, do you have some sort of max-damage summoner spec which loses all utility as a result of this? Why seven pages of misdirection?

Subversus · February 2018

So, can someone give me a quick TL;DR? Like does atro get buffed? Which morph will be better? What actually changed? Or do we still have no clue yet?

Ollowaiin2 · February 2018

Hi, ok we need magicka/magick dmg and the same gear (after that please blue cp used), to see if they nerfed the tooltip damage. Please some1 post that and the atro damage pts+Life game. We can wait for weeks, or calculate for a few minutes. Sorry for the poor English, I have no time right now.
Cheers please some1 post usefull screenshots

Erraln · February 2018

Subversus wrote: »

So, can someone give me a quick TL;DR? Like does atro get buffed? Which morph will be better? What actually changed? Or do we still have no clue yet?

TLDR, they made it scale better with CP and player stats, but lowered the base damage too. It's now weaker in nonvet and low CP, equal to live strength at c250-300, better at 300+. It still uses spellcrit damage modifiers for its damage checks, so it's not the best for Stamina setups. It still has all the old casting problems from live, like being killable, avoidable, etc. The Synergy wasn't improved but should be easier to activate now. Jorvuld's Guidance does NOT buff the Major Berserk timer unless the Synergizer is wearing the set, not the Atro caster. That's consistent with other synergy effects, though lame.

In a situation where it'll stay alive and shoot the target the whole time, the Greater Atro morph is now clearly the best single-target ulti an endgame magsorc can cast. Even more so than on Live currently. You need to be smart about using it when the moment is right, though. Casting a Destro ulti remains an easier and more broadly effective option.

Zer0oo · February 2018

Tooltip for attro:

In 5 necro+2ilambris+4moondancer+apprentice+witch || 2902(on pts 2960)spd+48399mag

live:11646
pts:12077

In 5 jul+2ilambris+4moondancer+apprentice+witch || 3303(on pts 3388)spd+40779mag
live:11167
pts:11603

For some reason the spell damage on pts is higher than on live (cp on live and on pts is not the same)

Minalan · February 2018

Subversus wrote: »

So, can someone give me a quick TL;DR? Like does atro get buffed? Which morph will be better? What actually changed? Or do we still have no clue yet?

Basically, it’ll do less damage in battlegrounds (which will be no CP), where a buffed version might have been useful to drop on top of a capture point crawling with enemies or something.

I know some of you don’t NO-CP PVP or queue for BG’s. But for those of us who do, it’s a nerf. A nasty one. And really unnecessary.

PS: BG’s are fun, I’d recommend them to anyone.

Subversus · February 2018

Erraln wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

So, can someone give me a quick TL;DR? Like does atro get buffed? Which morph will be better? What actually changed? Or do we still have no clue yet?

TLDR, they made it scale better with CP and player stats, but lowered the base damage too. It's now weaker in nonvet and low CP, equal to live strength at c250-300, better at 300+. It still uses spellcrit damage modifiers for its damage checks, so it's not the best for Stamina setups. It still has all the old casting problems from live, like being killable, avoidable, etc. The Synergy wasn't improved but should be easier to activate now. Jorvuld's Guidance does NOT buff the Major Berserk timer unless the Synergizer is wearing the set, not the Atro caster. That's consistent with other synergy effects, though lame.

In a situation where it'll stay alive and shoot the target the whole time, the Greater Atro morph is now clearly the best single-target ulti an endgame magsorc can cast. Even more so than on Live currently. You need to be smart about using it when the moment is right, though. Casting a Destro ulti remains an easier and more broadly effective option.

Minalan wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

So, can someone give me a quick TL;DR? Like does atro get buffed? Which morph will be better? What actually changed? Or do we still have no clue yet?

Basically, it’ll do less damage in battlegrounds (which will be no CP), where a buffed version might have been useful to drop on top of a capture point crawling with enemies or something.

I know some of you don’t NO-CP PVP or queue for BG’s. But for those of us who do, it’s a nerf. A nasty one. And really unnecessary.

PS: BG’s are fun, I’d recommend them to anyone.

Very helpful info, thanks a bunch!

Speaking of noCP BGs, the hype is real B O Y S

pieratsos · February 2018

Erraln wrote: »

Now, what are you using the skill for that the loss of 15% beam damage on targets in Non-CP is so terrible? I was under the impression it was mostly used as a moderate form of area denial or distraction against players, do you have some sort of max-damage summoner spec which loses all utility as a result of this? Why seven pages of misdirection?

Your impression is wrong. You are talking about things you have no idea about. Its an ult that costs 200. It should do more than just distract and give you some area of denial.

And for it to actually provide area of denial, it has to pose a threat to ur opponent. If it hits like a wet noodle and you can just ignore it, then obviously it doesnt really do anything.

There is no misdirection. The patch notes are the misdirection. Like you said the goal was to be buffed for everyone but hybrid builds. This is clearly not the case so you can cut the crap.

SirMewser · February 2018

Erraln wrote: »

A nerf is where the entire curve of an ability's usefulness is changed to be below the previous level.

Thank you so much for the definition,

what are you responding to by the way?

I don't recall asking for a definition, so please do read again.

Erraln wrote: »

That is not the case here.

Okay, so what is it?

Erraln wrote: »

A ninja nerf is where this happens without information being given on the subject.

That is a definition, you're implying I am confused.

Erraln wrote: »

That is not the case here.

...Yes, you've said that.

Erraln wrote: »

The OP's premise is false and the screenshots used were misleading; it displays, without divulging full CP/ gearing, a non-critical damage tick comparison.

Okay, now you are giving me a reason, however, there is nothing backing up that statement nor anyone whom "agree" (as of this time) to your case. Telling me the OP is a false positive is not a reason.

Screenshots are misleading?

Output better results to counter claim with said variables, otherwise, there is nothing to work with here and quite frankly while being on the PTS, there is a fair bit on concurring with the OP.

Again, what does this have to do with my post when you could have responded with this unconstructive "truth" you have found that no one else can apparently figure out?

Erraln wrote: »

The ultimate now responds to spellcrit damage modifiers (Elfborn, Shadow, Force buffs) when it did not before.

So this is what we aren't understanding?
Assumptions on one's understanding is (delusional and) not a valid reason to hold an argument, this is idiotic.

(Put yourself together.)

Erraln wrote: »

That fact accounts for much of its newfound potential. The OP also only displayed a 10% increase in base strength at what is implied to be an endgame gearing/ CP, which misrepresents the new math the ability uses. This quote is partially accurate:

That however, was not a fact.
Anyone who has been following this discussion knows of the "potential" difference.

Do you know why there is an issue with the player base in this discussion?

The change only applies positively to players with >300CP in PVE, dueling, and some AvA instances.

There is a decremented base value that affects the whole; battleground population, non-CP campaigns, new players, and of those who even considered using this in vet trials.

I am sorry it sucks to hear that the game is not all about you, but that is the reality.

Other people play this game, get over it.

[Edit]: Here is a question for you.
How just would it be to increase the "potential" and decrease the base than to just increase the potential and leave the base?
Just kidding, your answer is inconsequential.
Any sane person knows the latter is at least genuine.

Having said that, clearly better scaling is being accounted, regardless, there was no patch note documenting that the base value was changed therefor.