PvE Tanks vs Multiple Incoming Heavy Attacks

victoriana-blue · January 2018

Non-perma block tanks, how do you deal with encounters where enemies send you a stream of heavy attacks?

It's easy to say "Just don't block" because a good healer can help you eat the damage, but if you get stunned/knocked down you have to spend 3-4k stamina to break free and hope taunt doesn't run out while you're incapacitated.

victoriana-blue · January 2018

(Putting this in another comment because I want to see what people can suggest to the OP, not just help me with my particular problem. Context: nightblade hybrid tank, 1H&S front bar and frost staff back bar, Atronach mundus, tri-food or witchmother's. Numbers are estimates because I'm not in the game while I write this.)

I have problems with resource management in pulls with three or more heavy-hitters. I can't trust the attack telegraphs to match the timing of the incoming damage, so I need to put up block as soon as I see the telegraph just in case it's a desync'd attack. Between damage animation desyncs, latency, and my own reaction time I usually can't fit a light attack+block cancel between the incoming heavies, let alone a heavy attack of my own. (This is why I find siphoning attacks almost useless when I'm dealing with 3+ heavy hitters at a time, and the 3k net stamina return every 20 seconds might give me two more seconds of block in aoe situations in v3.3.) I'm "managing" by cutting back on my skill casts but that's less than ideal.

The heavy armor Immovable skill looks good on paper, but it seems like a waste to me: immunity to CC would give me a window to heavy attack myself, but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities. The 4k stamina cost takes two heavy attacks to return and the immovable effect only lasts 5 seconds, while heavy attacks take ~2 seconds apiece; if I took the Unstoppable morph and wore 7 heavy I'd get a max duration on the immovable skill effect of 6.75 seconds and could fit in maybe one more heavy, but I'd be foregoing 5/1/1 or 5/2 setups.

Has anyone tried immovable potions? I've never seen a PvE tank build recommend immovable potions* over tripots, but they'd be an option. As of PTS v3.3.2, the immovable potion effect will max at 8 seconds, or 10.4 with Medicinal Use; that's enough time for 4 heavies, restoring ~8k stamina or magicka from the heavy and 7.5k from the potion (plus 4k from siphoning attacks and up to 1.8-3.2k over time, ~22k total), but that assumes I don't have to deal with a mechanic like Ozara's pins. Tripots on the other hand restore ~7.5k each stamina and magicka plus major endurance and intellect (15k instant + 1.8k stamina or 3.2k magicka, ~18k total), regardless of whether I'm blocking, attacking, or dealing with a mechanic, and without putting pressure on my healer; with frost staff backbarred and v3.3 equalizing the block cost with 1H&S, I could choose what resource to get back while holding block.

And while I like the Shield Wall/Spell Wall ult, that only helps in 4-person - it feels too selfish to run in trials.

*I can make (Immovable + restore health + restore stamina) or (immovable + restore health + restore magicka), feel free to tell me if I'm missing a super-effective formula. ;p

RavenSworn · January 2018

Potions? Orbs? Shards?

For nbs, cast Mirage. Or for magicka tanks switch to frost staff for alternate resource blocking?

You can also have a healer run Bone Shield that gives you 116% health shield. That can be from 30-40k shield depending on your build.

Marginis · January 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.

What class abilities do you use? As a NB tank myself I use Immovable Brute and Mirage, but I'm always looking at different ways to get buffs.

As for dealing with lots of rapid heavy attacks, I just have crazy good magicka and stamina regen, plus my connection never seems to have an issue with desyncing like many other players, at least not to a noticeable extent. Otherwise, I do have dire-circumstance backup plans, but I will not recommend them because they will make your group hate you.

SmellyUnlimited · January 2018

Marginis wrote: »

victoriana-blue wrote: »

but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.

What class abilities do you use? As a NB tank myself I use Immovable Brute and Mirage, but I'm always looking at different ways to get buffs.

As for dealing with lots of rapid heavy attacks, I just have crazy good magicka and stamina regen, plus my connection never seems to have an issue with desyncing like many other players, at least not to a noticeable extent. Otherwise, I do have dire-circumstance backup plans, but I will not recommend them because they will make your group hate you.

Perhaps instead of slotting Immovable, you can just safe some immovable pots for when you're likely to encounter those situations. Granted, they dont work for everything, but most regular enemies they do.

As the other poster said, Mirage is amazing. 15% dodge, and the minor buffs. Only class now that can make use of Tava's for that very reason (and the 25sec time on Mirage is another boost). If you find you're having problems resource managing because you're getting hit so many times, another option is to prep for those particular fights. Tanks should be changing their gear to fit certain fights, instead of just the "Ebon/Alkosh" answer. Some fights you need to be selfish on. So attack heavy fights that drain your resources, perhaps Desert Rose would work well (jewels / SnB). I know when I tank axes in VAA, I'll throw Hist Bark and maybe Plague or Footman. Or if you're getting overwhelmed, can always toss Bolstering Darkness on your backbar. In trials I'll usually have War Horn main bar, but if people start going down (healers especially), I'll try and pull adds away and likely pop Magma Shield as my "oh sh!t!." Even if you can't get the hits in from Leeching Strikes, just activating it costs less than the lump sum of stamina you'll get back at the end, so still viable. NB's only really lack a self-shield to help mitigate while they regain some stamina. Since there are so many ways to get back Magicka, def want some block cost reduction's. And if you're in a fight that is that heavy hitting, you should have someone dropping some shards/synergies for you. No one certainly expects you to self-sustain indefinitely; eventually, you just run outta gas!

Spell Wall is especially nice because it' so cheap. Just remember, an alive tank >> dead tank (and no one will question how 'selfish' you were, just that it was a wipe).

aeowulf · January 2018

NB have no 'I need stamina' button, only DK, wardens, sorc and magplar get this. It is a real luxury to be able to look at your resource and think "I need more of that so i'll cast x."

Stamplar has issues too, not only do they also need to wait for a corpse, but it's consumed so it cannot be shared with another stamplar.

NB used to have a skill that gave us a chance to get stamina back when we cast a spell but this was removed leaving only roughly what we see as siphoning/leeching strikes now. This is compounded by the NB class passive designed to go off only when you damage a mob within two seconds of it dieing. The other thing that doesn't help is i'm 99% sure it's broken, I just haven't worked out how yet. Running some tests tonight, I *think* if you accidently kill the mob with an assassination ability, you won't get the resource return and you literally have to just damage it without killing it... but it's fairly moot as resources at the end of a fight are fairly useless anyway

I'd like to see that class passive reviewed, and ideally to go off when you dodge. This would help tanks immensely and if it is actually broken like I think it is, it shows exactly how useful it has been to NB DPS. DPS NB have a good rotation with leeching/siphoning. They are a lot more reactive. Good luck with NB tanking, I hope you succeed. I have not seen a single NB tank a vet dungeon in over 6 months & I honestly have no clue how they could ever do vBF in their current state

I was forced to swap to DPS or lose my trial spot, but my heart is in tanking.

A well forgotten set (and about the only one for pure stamina regen) is hunt, but the shields/swords ONLY drop from the last chest in Maelstrom, & with each run being solo & 1-2 hours, its a long farm. I have never seen a single staff of the hunt drop, either resto or destro, and I have 2 swords and a shield now... I fear you should not plan to back bar an ice staff

victoriana-blue · February 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

NB have no 'I need stamina' button, only DK, wardens, sorc and magplar get this. It is a real luxury to be able to look at your resource and think "I need more of that so i'll cast x."

Stamplar has issues too, not only do they also need to wait for a corpse, but it's consumed so it cannot be shared with another stamplar.

NB used to have a skill that gave us a chance to get stamina back when we cast a spell but this was removed leaving only roughly what we see as siphoning/leeching strikes now. This is compounded by the NB class passive designed to go off only when you damage a mob within two seconds of it dieing. The other thing that doesn't help is i'm 99% sure it's broken, I just haven't worked out how yet. Running some tests tonight, I *think* if you accidently kill the mob with an assassination ability, you won't get the resource return and you literally have to just damage it without killing it... but it's fairly moot as resources at the end of a fight are fairly useless anyway

I'd like to see that class passive reviewed, and ideally to go off when you dodge. This would help tanks immensely and if it is actually broken like I think it is, it shows exactly how useful it has been to NB DPS. DPS NB have a good rotation with leeching/siphoning. They are a lot more reactive. Good luck with NB tanking, I hope you succeed. I have not seen a single NB tank a vet dungeon in over 6 months & I honestly have no clue how they could ever do vBF in their current state I was forced to swap to DPS or lose my trial spot, but my heart is in tanking.

A well forgotten set (and about the only one for pure stamina regen) is hunt, but the shields/swords ONLY drop from the last chest in Maelstrom, & with each run being solo & 1-2 hours, its a long farm. I have never seen a single staff of the hunt drop, either resto or destro, and I have 2 swords and a shield now... I fear you should not plan to back bar an ice staff

And for sorcs, deal can be interrupted so it's not an "I win at resources" button either.

The lack of NB tanks in the group finder probably has at least a bit to do with the *** who trash talk NB tanks and call us fake tanks/try to vote kick before the first pull. >> That said, I'm sorry to hear you had to bench yours. All the other nb tanks I knew in my guilds have either stopped tanking or rolled a dk, but I dislike levelling and I'm stubborn. I've said it elsewhere (maybe to you?), but the biggest things I miss about the old siphoning attacks are the dual resource return and that it procced off of ability use. Homestead was the most fun I've had in dungeons or trials, and that's despite retiring my stamblade from normal trials because it was Elder Staffs Online. (And before any lurkers speak up, yes I think the skill needed to be nerfed on top of the CP changes, but it was nerfed too far for tanking situations where we can't weave.)

I'll keep an eye out for your test results, that sounds like a huge problem for that passive and might explain why my stamblade doesn't need siphoning strikes.

I hadn't considered Hunt Leader, ty! It would synergize nicely with using shades for maim. It looks like the medium/stamina equivalent of Bloodthorn, which iirc Gilliam suggested for sustain in his most recent iteration of the NB Bloodletter tank, and UESP says they restore the same total blocking resources on the same cooldown (Bloodthorn doesn't return health, though). And it drops from normal! \o/ I'll look into it and jewellery, it could work 5/1/1 instead of my current 5 heavy/2 light.

- - -

How often are we supposed to be heavy attacking anyway, by design? The 15% dodge chance on blur is good for reducing incoming damage, but we can't count on it wrt making openings for attacks. Having the resource return on dodge instead of mob death would scale really well relative to the size of the pull - it wouldn't be a big help in single boss fights, where we can already use siphoning & heavies to manage resources, but for these kinds of multi-heavy fights it could be great. It'd give NBs an opportunity to make a niche as ult-gen tanks instead of being templar heal-tanks' poor cousins. Though it would probably go against the whole point of the "stop permablocking!" nerfs. >>

Thinking aloud here, but blur specifically having a "dodge 5 heavy attacks in 15 seconds, get 3 seconds immovable, occur every 25 seconds/once per cast" kind of effect would enhance the "slippery" feeling Wrobel has said he wants for nbs, but balancing use in PvE tanking against abuse in PvP would be a nightmare. An all-class passive for "block 5 heavies in 12 seconds, get 3 seconds immovable " would give everyone an opportunity to drop block for a heavy attack with 0.75 of a second's grace (so getting back, what, 2-3 seconds worth of blocking if you're in aoe?), but again it'd be bad for PvP. idek anymore. ~.~

SquareSausage · February 2018

Just block them, block them all.

Block cost reduction jewelry enchants? Surely?

I guess block at the start and as the enemies are wittled down you can drop block and see easier whos doing what attacks.

victoriana-blue · February 2018

Marginis wrote: »

victoriana-blue wrote: »

but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.

What class abilities do you use? As a NB tank myself I use Immovable Brute and Mirage, but I'm always looking at different ways to get buffs.

As for dealing with lots of rapid heavy attacks, I just have crazy good magicka and stamina regen, plus my connection never seems to have an issue with desyncing like many other players, at least not to a noticeable extent. Otherwise, I do have dire-circumstance backup plans, but I will not recommend them because they will make your group hate you.

Woo, more nightblade tanks! \o/

Nightblades have a passive on the shadow line to grant major ward & resolve every time we use a shadow ability, and it lasts longer when you wear more pieces of heavy armor. I use refreshing path every 12 seconds as an off-heal (and to help keep trash mobs on me without taunting), and that pretty much matches the duration of ward & resolve; dark shades would need to be recast early if it was only shadow ability on your bars. The buff duration got extended I think in HOTR, when Wrobel explained the team wants to shift class abilities to give each class a dps, tanking, and healing line; the agony changes were part of making siphoning into healing, while shadow is shifting to tanking.

Do those plans involve equilibrium and/or kiting away? Drastic times call for drastic measures, I guess. XD

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

victoriana-blue wrote: »

but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.

What class abilities do you use? As a NB tank myself I use Immovable Brute and Mirage, but I'm always looking at different ways to get buffs.

As for dealing with lots of rapid heavy attacks, I just have crazy good magicka and stamina regen, plus my connection never seems to have an issue with desyncing like many other players, at least not to a noticeable extent. Otherwise, I do have dire-circumstance backup plans, but I will not recommend them because they will make your group hate you.

Perhaps instead of slotting Immovable, you can just safe some immovable pots for when you're likely to encounter those situations. Granted, they dont work for everything, but most regular enemies they do.

As the other poster said, Mirage is amazing. 15% dodge, and the minor buffs. Only class now that can make use of Tava's for that very reason (and the 25sec time on Mirage is another boost). If you find you're having problems resource managing because you're getting hit so many times, another option is to prep for those particular fights. Tanks should be changing their gear to fit certain fights, instead of just the "Ebon/Alkosh" answer. Some fights you need to be selfish on. So attack heavy fights that drain your resources, perhaps Desert Rose would work well (jewels / SnB). I know when I tank axes in VAA, I'll throw Hist Bark and maybe Plague or Footman. Or if you're getting overwhelmed, can always toss Bolstering Darkness on your backbar. In trials I'll usually have War Horn main bar, but if people start going down (healers especially), I'll try and pull adds away and likely pop Magma Shield as my "oh sh!t!." Even if you can't get the hits in from Leeching Strikes, just activating it costs less than the lump sum of stamina you'll get back at the end, so still viable. NB's only really lack a self-shield to help mitigate while they regain some stamina. Since there are so many ways to get back Magicka, def want some block cost reduction's. And if you're in a fight that is that heavy hitting, you should have someone dropping some shards/synergies for you. No one certainly expects you to self-sustain indefinitely; eventually, you just run outta gas!

Spell Wall is especially nice because it' so cheap. Just remember, an alive tank >> dead tank (and no one will question how 'selfish' you were, just that it was a wipe).

Thank you for the suggestions! "Just remember, an alive tank >> dead tank" I might have to tack this next to my computer.

I agree that everyone should have gear for different situations, especially but not only tanks. I love Swarm Mother for add control, but it's not much use on single target fights or when the enemies are too big to be dragged in; etc etc. The challenge then becomes slowing down a group long enough to change gear or skills.

As of now I'm running 4 sturdy/2 infused/2 divines with 3 shieldplay enchants at the moment, infused & divines for the resources, but I can go 7-8 sturdy with enough transmute crystals. I keep Bahraha's Curse up for the cc and heals; Swarm Mother or Sentinel depending on the dungeon; and Leeching Plate for cc or Resiliant Yokeda for the resists + heals, though I've been looking at replacements anyway because my Leeching heals are tiny. I mostly stick to 4-person these days because I've had trouble with the big trial pulls since Morrowind, so I don't have to worry about the never-ending "To Alkosh or Not" arguments. \o/

I have a few pieces of Desert Rose kicking around from before the nerf, so I'll give that another look. I already wear 5 heavy/2 light for the sake of CC & heals from Bahraha's Curse (and I can switch in some spare heavy BC or shoulders), so I might not need to track down the obnoxiously expensive weapons & shields if I try Desert Rose out. Excellent. Hist Bark is great if you don't have blur, for sure, and I've never tried Footman. Do you know if it stacks with Defensive Posture?

I really like mirage, it's nice to have a buff I only need to cast every ~26 seconds and the minors are useful, and I miss having access to harness magicka. Refreshing path is underrated imo, giving ~12 seconds of major ward & resolve while off-healing players when the boss is small enough. I usually have a couple ground dots going for soft cc on the adds; giving them up for these fights feels like I'm failing my group wrt add control so I try to avoid it, but yeah. Alive tank vs dead tank.

victoriana-blue · February 2018

SquareSausage wrote: »

Just block them, block them all.

Block cost reduction jewelry enchants? Surely?

I guess block at the start and as the enemies are wittled down you can drop block and see easier whos doing what attacks.

There should be another way than holding block for 30+ seconds or only tanking for leaderboard-level dps. ZOS has said over and over that they want us to "block strategically." They've been increasing the cost of block for a year to try and stop the permablockers, so they must think we have a tool/skill/gear set to deal with these fights without permablocking.

If the end goal is to force dps players to take on some of group buff & utility duties then someone at ZOS should just say that, instead of watching tanks scramble to do what their groups expect of them with less resources every three months.

SmellyUnlimited · February 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

NB have no 'I need stamina' button, only DK, wardens, sorc and magplar get this. It is a real luxury to be able to look at your resource and think "I need more of that so i'll cast x."

Stamplar has issues too, not only do they also need to wait for a corpse, but it's consumed so it cannot be shared with another stamplar.

NB used to have a skill that gave us a chance to get stamina back when we cast a spell but this was removed leaving only roughly what we see as siphoning/leeching strikes now. This is compounded by the NB class passive designed to go off only when you damage a mob within two seconds of it dieing. The other thing that doesn't help is i'm 99% sure it's broken, I just haven't worked out how yet. Running some tests tonight, I *think* if you accidently kill the mob with an assassination ability, you won't get the resource return and you literally have to just damage it without killing it... but it's fairly moot as resources at the end of a fight are fairly useless anyway

I'd like to see that class passive reviewed, and ideally to go off when you dodge. This would help tanks immensely and if it is actually broken like I think it is, it shows exactly how useful it has been to NB DPS. DPS NB have a good rotation with leeching/siphoning. They are a lot more reactive. Good luck with NB tanking, I hope you succeed. I have not seen a single NB tank a vet dungeon in over 6 months & I honestly have no clue how they could ever do vBF in their current state I was forced to swap to DPS or lose my trial spot, but my heart is in tanking.

A well forgotten set (and about the only one for pure stamina regen) is hunt, but the shields/swords ONLY drop from the last chest in Maelstrom, & with each run being solo & 1-2 hours, its a long farm. I have never seen a single staff of the hunt drop, either resto or destro, and I have 2 swords and a shield now... I fear you should not plan to back bar an ice staff

And for sorcs, deal can be interrupted so it's not an "I win at resources" button either.

The lack of NB tanks in the group finder probably has at least a bit to do with the *** who trash talk NB tanks and call us fake tanks/try to vote kick before the first pull. >> That said, I'm sorry to hear you had to bench yours. All the other nb tanks I knew in my guilds have either stopped tanking or rolled a dk, but I dislike levelling and I'm stubborn. I've said it elsewhere (maybe to you?), but the biggest things I miss about the old siphoning attacks are the dual resource return and that it procced off of ability use. Homestead was the most fun I've had in dungeons or trials, and that's despite retiring my stamblade from normal trials because it was Elder Staffs Online. (And before any lurkers speak up, yes I think the skill needed to be nerfed on top of the CP changes, but it was nerfed too far for tanking situations where we can't weave.)

I'll keep an eye out for your test results, that sounds like a huge problem for that passive and might explain why my stamblade doesn't need siphoning strikes.

I hadn't considered Hunt Leader, ty! It would synergize nicely with using shades for maim. It looks like the medium/stamina equivalent of Bloodthorn, which iirc Gilliam suggested for sustain in his most recent iteration of the NB Bloodletter tank, and UESP says they restore the same total blocking resources on the same cooldown (Bloodthorn doesn't return health, though). And it drops from normal! \o/ I'll look into it and jewellery, it could work 5/1/1 instead of my current 5 heavy/2 light.

- - -

How often are we supposed to be heavy attacking anyway, by design? The 15% dodge chance on blur is good for reducing incoming damage, but we can't count on it wrt making openings for attacks. Having the resource return on dodge instead of mob death would scale really well relative to the size of the pull - it wouldn't be a big help in single boss fights, where we can already use siphoning & heavies to manage resources, but for these kinds of multi-heavy fights it could be great. It'd give NBs an opportunity to make a niche as ult-gen tanks instead of being templar heal-tanks' poor cousins. Though it would probably go against the whole point of the "stop permablocking!" nerfs. >>

Thinking aloud here, but blur specifically having a "dodge 5 heavy attacks in 15 seconds, get 3 seconds immovable, occur every 25 seconds/once per cast" kind of effect would enhance the "slippery" feeling Wrobel has said he wants for nbs, but balancing use in PvE tanking against abuse in PvP would be a nightmare. An all-class passive for "block 5 heavies in 12 seconds, get 3 seconds immovable " would give everyone an opportunity to drop block for a heavy attack with 0.75 of a second's grace (so getting back, what, 2-3 seconds worth of blocking if you're in aoe?), but again it'd be bad for PvP. idek anymore. ~.~[/quote

Outside of farming that set, you could also try and just increase your overall Stamina pool. Fairly easy using Draugr Hulk SnB/jewels (or can do 2 body w/ jewels). Adding an additional 8000 stamina to your build may give you the extra buffer you need to get past those harder fights. Otherwise, I’m sure you’ve done this already, but sturdy trait makes a big difference, shadow ward cp, and even tumbling. Can create distance or get you out of CC or heavy ground AoE’s. That’s pretty much it, though. Outside of using Engine Guardian Helm, there isn’t much else to do to make blocking less costly. I know Gilliam prefers infused on every piece for a Sap tank, but remember, he explicitly states that since Morrowind the Sap tank is a shade of what it once used to be (and the infused is with the intent of tossing gold tri-glyph’s on all those pieces). Not incredibly viable in trials, as the damage and healing the Sap can add aren’t necessary in that setting. I’d be very interested to hear what dungeons are giving you the most problems for blocking.

Or hey! If you have a decent mana pool, you can always just backbar a frost staff to put that mana to work. Through The Balance skill, you can get a ton of Magicka back and then use it to heal back up, or for blocking and let your healer take care of you.

aeowulf · February 2018

re hunt leader - rings only drop in blue too. If you want gold, you need to get on the leaderboards and keep your fingers crossed. (can also be any 'weight' too - same chance to get magicka) There are not many sets left in the game that drop in random weights anymore.

Found this thread in the bug forum re executioner passive:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/379179/bug-executioner-passive

Seems this guy actually figured out when it did/didn't work. No comment about how long it took to notice... As mentioned before NB DPS can rely on leeching/siphoning rotations, tanks can't. Is probably why it's gone under the radar.

Sorcs just need to time their deal, and it gives about 4k stamina back, hats the equivalent of 5 helping hands. The tanks also get a massive 'self' heal from their clanfear that ignores spell symmentry (15k+ no crit for a tank). They also get a magicka class ward which could be used to lessen the chance of being interupted quite considerably.

ccfeeling · February 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

re hunt leader - rings only drop in blue too. If you want gold, you need to get on the leaderboards and keep your fingers crossed. (can also be any 'weight' too - same chance to get magicka) There are not many sets left in the game that drop in random weights anymore.

Found this thread in the bug forum re executioner passive:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/379179/bug-executioner-passive

Seems this guy actually figured out when it did/didn't work. No comment about how long it took to notice... As mentioned before NB DPS can rely on leeching/siphoning rotations, tanks can't. Is probably why it's gone under the radar.

Sorcs just need to time their deal, and it gives about 4k stamina back, hats the equivalent of 5 helping hands. The tanks also get a massive 'self' heal from their clanfear that ignores spell symmentry (15k+ no crit for a tank). They also get a magicka class ward which could be used to lessen the chance of being interupted quite considerably.

Like you said exactly .
And I have both tanks above .

I'm testing light armor NB tank build currently , I think stamina regen was not that well for this class and role

At the same time I play my Sorc tank for fun , ward , deal , ward , deal ...

Not much hard time~

aeowulf · February 2018

don't forget spell symmentry followed immediately by the clanfear for a 20k heal

Magdalina · February 2018

If you're really in danger you could also use shield ulti. It's cheap, it's stamina-free block and you can even heavy attack during it to restore stamina while still getting the benefit of block. Oh and one of the morphs reflects projectiles which actually does come in handy for non DK tanks on, say, Chudan. That does mean missing out on Warhorn though. On my Templar tank I usually do slot it(along with Warhorn) just in case I run into one of those OH %^&* situations where staying alive takes priority over buffing the group.

On that character I also do sometimes use immovable potions against certain bosses, Velidreth to name one. Depends on group, luck, etc. My Templar tank only has 12k stamina but she rarely blocks due to high health pool and Blazing shield, and spends quite a lot of time heavy attacking to restore stamina. NBs don't have a class shield though and Bone shield currently costs stamina iirc so that's probably not an option for you.

...DK tanking is just silly easy mode in comparison lol

Good luck!

aeowulf · February 2018

I want to see ZoS take an NB tank to vBF with a DK healer, and come back and say these class/role combinations are working as intended ^^

or maybe there is something we as a community have not figured out yet.

Asardes · February 2018

Heavy attacks mean usually one shot to a non-blocking tank in any sort of serious content, even with capped resistance and plenty of skill points put in Hardy, Elemental Defender, Spell Shield and Ironclad. Those attack usually pack 100K+ base damage, which is only cut in half by those mitigations so you still end up with 50K+. If they are not one shot by their own, they usually knock down or disorient, meaning the next attack will be most likely one-shot. No good healer can save you from not blocking vRoM Chudan spit or Stone Shapers shield slam, vCoS Dranos Velador "steel tornado" and Velidreth's corpulence attack, vFH & vBF minotaur slams, Earthgore Amalgam punches, Dominahus flame attack, vHRC Ra Kotu's sword stike, the Warrior's "death by a hundred cuts", vAA axes, Manticora axe hit, Ozara scream cleave, Rakkat spell attack etc. The good tactic is to fill up your stamina when you can, then block all those attacks. If your stamina pool is low, then 1H+S ultimate is one of the best ways to get a window for filling those resources even in the middle of a heavy attack sequence. If you plan on blocking most of the times I suggest getting your block cost to under 500: 4 Sturdy, 3 shield play enchants and 48 CP in Shadow Ward is about ~450 on PTS.

If you want to save stamina on your Minor/Major mitigation I recommend not using the Heavy Armor skill, but instead gain those using your class skill. For example on my Stamina NB tank I use Refreshing Path for Shadow Barrier passive - Major Ward and Resolve with duration increased by worn heavy armor pieces - and Mirage for the minor buffs and evasion. Those give a really good mitigation together, 6.6K physical and spell resistance, accounting for ~10% mitigation. Also Mirage procs Tava's for fast ultimate recovery, so I can cast Bolstering Drakness fast, to get even more mitigation. I've managed to tank vCoS and vRoM HM without any sustain issues.

rafaelcsmaia · February 2018

IMO the existence of perma block is what makes people harrass non dk tanks. If blocking had a fatigue system like roll dodge, other classes would be more eligible for tanking

aeowulf · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy attacks mean usually one shot to a non-blocking tank in any sort of serious content, even with capped resistance and plenty of skill points put in Hardy, Elemental Defender, Spell Shield and Ironclad. Those attack usually pack 100K+ base damage, which is only cut in half by those mitigations so you still end up with 50K+. If they are not one shot by their own, they usually knock down or disorient, meaning the next attack will be most likely one-shot. No good healer can save you from not blocking vRoM Chudan spit or Stone Shapers shield slam, vCoS Dranos Velador "steel tornado" and Velidreth's corpulence attack, vFH & vBF minotaur slams, Earthgore Amalgam punches, Dominahus flame attack, vHRC Ra Kotu's sword stike, the Warrior's "death by a hundred cuts", vAA axes, Manticora axe hit, Ozara scream cleave, Rakkat spell attack etc. The good tactic is to fill up your stamina when you can, then block all those attacks. If your stamina pool is low, then 1H+S ultimate is one of the best ways to get a window for filling those resources even in the middle of a heavy attack sequence. If you plan on blocking most of the times I suggest getting your block cost to under 500: 4 Sturdy, 3 shield play enchants and 48 CP in Shadow Ward is about ~450 on PTS.

If you want to save stamina on your Minor/Major mitigation I recommend not using the Heavy Armor skill, but instead gain those using your class skill. For example on my Stamina NB tank I use Refreshing Path for Shadow Barrier passive - Major Ward and Resolve with duration increased by worn heavy armor pieces - and Mirage for the minor buffs and evasion. Those give a really good mitigation together, 6.6K physical and spell resistance, accounting for ~10% mitigation. Also Mirage procs Tava's for fast ultimate recovery, so I can cast Bolstering Drakness fast, to get even more mitigation. I've managed to tank vCoS and vRoM HM without any sustain issues.

Good to see there is still someone running a stamina NB tank, these were uncommon even in the days of sap tanks, let alone these days. Which sets are you generally running? A sustain presumably?

Asardes · February 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy attacks mean usually one shot to a non-blocking tank in any sort of serious content, even with capped resistance and plenty of skill points put in Hardy, Elemental Defender, Spell Shield and Ironclad. Those attack usually pack 100K+ base damage, which is only cut in half by those mitigations so you still end up with 50K+. If they are not one shot by their own, they usually knock down or disorient, meaning the next attack will be most likely one-shot. No good healer can save you from not blocking vRoM Chudan spit or Stone Shapers shield slam, vCoS Dranos Velador "steel tornado" and Velidreth's corpulence attack, vFH & vBF minotaur slams, Earthgore Amalgam punches, Dominahus flame attack, vHRC Ra Kotu's sword stike, the Warrior's "death by a hundred cuts", vAA axes, Manticora axe hit, Ozara scream cleave, Rakkat spell attack etc. The good tactic is to fill up your stamina when you can, then block all those attacks. If your stamina pool is low, then 1H+S ultimate is one of the best ways to get a window for filling those resources even in the middle of a heavy attack sequence. If you plan on blocking most of the times I suggest getting your block cost to under 500: 4 Sturdy, 3 shield play enchants and 48 CP in Shadow Ward is about ~450 on PTS.

If you want to save stamina on your Minor/Major mitigation I recommend not using the Heavy Armor skill, but instead gain those using your class skill. For example on my Stamina NB tank I use Refreshing Path for Shadow Barrier passive - Major Ward and Resolve with duration increased by worn heavy armor pieces - and Mirage for the minor buffs and evasion. Those give a really good mitigation together, 6.6K physical and spell resistance, accounting for ~10% mitigation. Also Mirage procs Tava's for fast ultimate recovery, so I can cast Bolstering Drakness fast, to get even more mitigation. I've managed to tank vCoS and vRoM HM without any sustain issues.

Good to see there is still someone running a stamina NB tank, these were uncommon even in the days of sap tanks, let alone these days. Which sets are you generally running? A sustain presumably?

It's not a completely optimized build, but something I made for maximizing the number of undaunted keys I can get per day when I have the time, since people usually search tank for pledges. Tava's is re-purposed from my DK that used it for a few months before HotR when Torug's was buffed and the rest of the gear was sitting around in my storage characters' inventory.

Race, attributes, CP, Mundus, consumables
Race: Khajiit - really not optimized for tanking, but this character is mainly DD, Argonian would probably be better
Attributes: 64 Stamina, for the same reasons
CP: typical DD distribution, just be sure to have at least 48 in Shadow Ward
Mundus: I usually don't bother changing from Warrior (boosts Vigor heals), but Lord would be better for a margin of safety
Consumable: blue health+stamina food, dropped stamina potions

Gear
2 Swarm Mother (heavy infused head, heavy sturdy shoulder, prismatic defense glyphs)
5 Tava's Favor (heavy infused chest, infused shields, sturdy medium hands, sturdy light waist, prismatic defense glyphs, infused swords with crusher enchant on front bar, weakening enchant back bar)
5 Brands of Imperium (heavy infused legs, heavy sturdy feet, prismatic defense glyphs, 3 healthy jewels, shield play glyphs)

Skills
Front bar: Pierce Armor | Heroic Slash | Absorb Magic | Swallow Soul* | Spiked Bone Shield || Replenishing Barrier**
Back bar: Inner Rage | Razor Caltrops*** | Resolving Vigor | Mirage | Refreshing Path || Aggressive Warhorn

*Swallow Soul is really for the Minor Vitality passive, since on a stamina build the other morph doesn't heal much anyway, I replace with Prolonged Suffering when I need a ranged interrupt and I don't want to wait for a Swarm Mother proc
**or Spell Wall if I need to reflect some ranged attacks and/or block for long periods, or Bolstering Darkness when taking heavy damage even when blocking
***or Ring of Preservation in static fights where I need more mitigation

aeowulf · February 2018

I was suprised to see brands as the second set, rings were on the golden vendor last weekend I think and I contemplated them at the time but couldn't see me using it in the near future. I didn't realise that set was particularly used due to the shield length

RavenSworn · February 2018

I think nbs more than any other tanks require equipment swaps for particular fights. They are more 'selfish' in terms of group support but that's where gear and builds play a part.

Again at the end of the day, alive tank >> dead tank.

Asardes · February 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

I was suprised to see brands as the second set, rings were on the golden vendor last weekend I think and I contemplated them at the time but couldn't see me using it in the near future. I didn't realise that set was particularly used due to the shield length

I didn't say it's optimal. Just that I had it in storage and grabbed it since it offered 2 x HP bonuses, and I wanted to be just above 32K for more safety. I wouldn't buy gold jewelry since there's very little difference from purple. Yes, the up time is not great, being theoretically limited at 40% but it does proc quite often in dungeons; in fact I'd say that's much better than the other similar set, Lunar Bastion. Paired with Bone Shield it emulates Ingenous Shield from DK, just like Swarm Mother emulates Unrelenting Grip or Frozen Gate. Other sets I looked at were Green Pact, Plague Doctor, Leeching Plate, Livewire and Akaviri Dragonguard. If you want really high ultimate uptime and some more magicka recovery I would suggest the latter.

Marginis · February 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

victoriana-blue wrote: »

but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.

What class abilities do you use? As a NB tank myself I use Immovable Brute and Mirage, but I'm always looking at different ways to get buffs.

Woo, more nightblade tanks! \o/

Nightblades have a passive on the shadow line to grant major ward & resolve every time we use a shadow ability, and it lasts longer when you wear more pieces of heavy armor. I use refreshing path every 12 seconds as an off-heal (and to help keep trash mobs on me without taunting), and that pretty much matches the duration of ward & resolve; dark shades would need to be recast early if it was only shadow ability on your bars. The buff duration got extended I think in HOTR, when Wrobel explained the team wants to shift class abilities to give each class a dps, tanking, and healing line; the agony changes were part of making siphoning into healing, while shadow is shifting to tanking.

Do those plans involve equilibrium and/or kiting away? Drastic times call for drastic measures, I guess. XD

Thanks for the reply - I'm currently looking at how to swap around my abilities to gain a bit of extra utility without losing anything. My question is, how does the shorter Major Resolve and Ward duration affect your rotation, having to cast more often? Big effect, little effect, something you have to work around, or something that's effectively no different from Immovable? Second question, is the AOE worth losing Immovable Brute's other effects? So far I've been running other AOEs that proc other buffs, so if I kept those is the benefit of something like Refreshing Path lost because I already have an AOE?

Because if it's better to take Immovable out of my build, I'll want something to cover that CC immunity in order to weave in heavy attacks properly.

SmellyUnlimited · February 2018

ccfeeling wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

re hunt leader - rings only drop in blue too. If you want gold, you need to get on the leaderboards and keep your fingers crossed. (can also be any 'weight' too - same chance to get magicka) There are not many sets left in the game that drop in random weights anymore.

Found this thread in the bug forum re executioner passive:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/379179/bug-executioner-passive

Seems this guy actually figured out when it did/didn't work. No comment about how long it took to notice... As mentioned before NB DPS can rely on leeching/siphoning rotations, tanks can't. Is probably why it's gone under the radar.

Sorcs just need to time their deal, and it gives about 4k stamina back, hats the equivalent of 5 helping hands. The tanks also get a massive 'self' heal from their clanfear that ignores spell symmentry (15k+ no crit for a tank). They also get a magicka class ward which could be used to lessen the chance of being interupted quite considerably.

Like you said exactly .
And I have both tanks above .

I'm testing light armor NB tank build currently , I think stamina regen was not that well for this class and role
At the same time I play my Sorc tank for fun , ward , deal , ward , deal ...
Not much hard time~

I've seen some Sap tanks run light-armor sturdy Fortified Brass. But! You lose out on the big health passive from Heavy Armor, and the shadow heavy armor passive bonus. Though maybe the Magicka regen will easily off-set all of that (especially since you're casting so frequently to heal group/self).

Pairing the light-armor Fortified Brass with a resource set, like Plague Doctor, might be a strong contender. Or as someone said, Akaviri a good option. I would actually stick with selfish-sets since NB's have a totally different style of play; your abilities in themselves are non-selfish (healing others etc.) so your gear should aim to help facilitate that.

My rec's - LA Fortified Brass / Plague Doctor / Troll King
*you can be vampire to take advantage of extra regen/undeath passive. Troll King will still give the full health recovery value even as a vampire. 1400 extra health regen is very noticeable.