victoriana-blue wrote: »but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.
victoriana-blue wrote: »but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.
What class abilities do you use? As a NB tank myself I use Immovable Brute and Mirage, but I'm always looking at different ways to get buffs.
As for dealing with lots of rapid heavy attacks, I just have crazy good magicka and stamina regen, plus my connection never seems to have an issue with desyncing like many other players, at least not to a noticeable extent. Otherwise, I do have dire-circumstance backup plans, but I will not recommend them because they will make your group hate you.
And for sorcs, deal can be interrupted so it's not an "I win at resources" button either.NB have no 'I need stamina' button, only DK, wardens, sorc and magplar get this. It is a real luxury to be able to look at your resource and think "I need more of that so i'll cast x."
Stamplar has issues too, not only do they also need to wait for a corpse, but it's consumed so it cannot be shared with another stamplar.
NB used to have a skill that gave us a chance to get stamina back when we cast a spell but this was removed leaving only roughly what we see as siphoning/leeching strikes now. This is compounded by the NB class passive designed to go off only when you damage a mob within two seconds of it dieing. The other thing that doesn't help is i'm 99% sure it's broken, I just haven't worked out how yet. Running some tests tonight, I *think* if you accidently kill the mob with an assassination ability, you won't get the resource return and you literally have to just damage it without killing it... but it's fairly moot as resources at the end of a fight are fairly useless anyway
I'd like to see that class passive reviewed, and ideally to go off when you dodge. This would help tanks immensely and if it is actually broken like I think it is, it shows exactly how useful it has been to NB DPS. DPS NB have a good rotation with leeching/siphoning. They are a lot more reactive. Good luck with NB tanking, I hope you succeed. I have not seen a single NB tank a vet dungeon in over 6 months & I honestly have no clue how they could ever do vBF in their current state I was forced to swap to DPS or lose my trial spot, but my heart is in tanking.
A well forgotten set (and about the only one for pure stamina regen) is hunt, but the shields/swords ONLY drop from the last chest in Maelstrom, & with each run being solo & 1-2 hours, its a long farm. I have never seen a single staff of the hunt drop, either resto or destro, and I have 2 swords and a shield now... I fear you should not plan to back bar an ice staff
Woo, more nightblade tanks! \o/victoriana-blue wrote: »but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.
What class abilities do you use? As a NB tank myself I use Immovable Brute and Mirage, but I'm always looking at different ways to get buffs.
As for dealing with lots of rapid heavy attacks, I just have crazy good magicka and stamina regen, plus my connection never seems to have an issue with desyncing like many other players, at least not to a noticeable extent. Otherwise, I do have dire-circumstance backup plans, but I will not recommend them because they will make your group hate you.
Thank you for the suggestions! "Just remember, an alive tank >> dead tank" I might have to tack this next to my computer.SmellyUnlimited wrote: »victoriana-blue wrote: »but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.
What class abilities do you use? As a NB tank myself I use Immovable Brute and Mirage, but I'm always looking at different ways to get buffs.
As for dealing with lots of rapid heavy attacks, I just have crazy good magicka and stamina regen, plus my connection never seems to have an issue with desyncing like many other players, at least not to a noticeable extent. Otherwise, I do have dire-circumstance backup plans, but I will not recommend them because they will make your group hate you.
Perhaps instead of slotting Immovable, you can just safe some immovable pots for when you're likely to encounter those situations. Granted, they dont work for everything, but most regular enemies they do.
As the other poster said, Mirage is amazing. 15% dodge, and the minor buffs. Only class now that can make use of Tava's for that very reason (and the 25sec time on Mirage is another boost). If you find you're having problems resource managing because you're getting hit so many times, another option is to prep for those particular fights. Tanks should be changing their gear to fit certain fights, instead of just the "Ebon/Alkosh" answer. Some fights you need to be selfish on. So attack heavy fights that drain your resources, perhaps Desert Rose would work well (jewels / SnB). I know when I tank axes in VAA, I'll throw Hist Bark and maybe Plague or Footman. Or if you're getting overwhelmed, can always toss Bolstering Darkness on your backbar. In trials I'll usually have War Horn main bar, but if people start going down (healers especially), I'll try and pull adds away and likely pop Magma Shield as my "oh sh!t!." Even if you can't get the hits in from Leeching Strikes, just activating it costs less than the lump sum of stamina you'll get back at the end, so still viable. NB's only really lack a self-shield to help mitigate while they regain some stamina. Since there are so many ways to get back Magicka, def want some block cost reduction's. And if you're in a fight that is that heavy hitting, you should have someone dropping some shards/synergies for you. No one certainly expects you to self-sustain indefinitely; eventually, you just run outta gas!
Spell Wall is especially nice because it' so cheap. Just remember, an alive tank >> dead tank (and no one will question how 'selfish' you were, just that it was a wipe).
There should be another way than holding block for 30+ seconds or only tanking for leaderboard-level dps. ZOS has said over and over that they want us to "block strategically." They've been increasing the cost of block for a year to try and stop the permablockers, so they must think we have a tool/skill/gear set to deal with these fights without permablocking.SquareSausage wrote: »Just block them, block them all.
Block cost reduction jewelry enchants? Surely?
I guess block at the start and as the enemies are wittled down you can drop block and see easier whos doing what attacks.
victoriana-blue wrote: »And for sorcs, deal can be interrupted so it's not an "I win at resources" button either.NB have no 'I need stamina' button, only DK, wardens, sorc and magplar get this. It is a real luxury to be able to look at your resource and think "I need more of that so i'll cast x."
Stamplar has issues too, not only do they also need to wait for a corpse, but it's consumed so it cannot be shared with another stamplar.
NB used to have a skill that gave us a chance to get stamina back when we cast a spell but this was removed leaving only roughly what we see as siphoning/leeching strikes now. This is compounded by the NB class passive designed to go off only when you damage a mob within two seconds of it dieing. The other thing that doesn't help is i'm 99% sure it's broken, I just haven't worked out how yet. Running some tests tonight, I *think* if you accidently kill the mob with an assassination ability, you won't get the resource return and you literally have to just damage it without killing it... but it's fairly moot as resources at the end of a fight are fairly useless anyway
I'd like to see that class passive reviewed, and ideally to go off when you dodge. This would help tanks immensely and if it is actually broken like I think it is, it shows exactly how useful it has been to NB DPS. DPS NB have a good rotation with leeching/siphoning. They are a lot more reactive. Good luck with NB tanking, I hope you succeed. I have not seen a single NB tank a vet dungeon in over 6 months & I honestly have no clue how they could ever do vBF in their current state I was forced to swap to DPS or lose my trial spot, but my heart is in tanking.
A well forgotten set (and about the only one for pure stamina regen) is hunt, but the shields/swords ONLY drop from the last chest in Maelstrom, & with each run being solo & 1-2 hours, its a long farm. I have never seen a single staff of the hunt drop, either resto or destro, and I have 2 swords and a shield now... I fear you should not plan to back bar an ice staff
The lack of NB tanks in the group finder probably has at least a bit to do with the *** who trash talk NB tanks and call us fake tanks/try to vote kick before the first pull. >> That said, I'm sorry to hear you had to bench yours. All the other nb tanks I knew in my guilds have either stopped tanking or rolled a dk, but I dislike levelling and I'm stubborn. I've said it elsewhere (maybe to you?), but the biggest things I miss about the old siphoning attacks are the dual resource return and that it procced off of ability use. Homestead was the most fun I've had in dungeons or trials, and that's despite retiring my stamblade from normal trials because it was Elder Staffs Online. (And before any lurkers speak up, yes I think the skill needed to be nerfed on top of the CP changes, but it was nerfed too far for tanking situations where we can't weave.)
I'll keep an eye out for your test results, that sounds like a huge problem for that passive and might explain why my stamblade doesn't need siphoning strikes.
I hadn't considered Hunt Leader, ty! It would synergize nicely with using shades for maim. It looks like the medium/stamina equivalent of Bloodthorn, which iirc Gilliam suggested for sustain in his most recent iteration of the NB Bloodletter tank, and UESP says they restore the same total blocking resources on the same cooldown (Bloodthorn doesn't return health, though). And it drops from normal! \o/ I'll look into it and jewellery, it could work 5/1/1 instead of my current 5 heavy/2 light.
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How often are we supposed to be heavy attacking anyway, by design? The 15% dodge chance on blur is good for reducing incoming damage, but we can't count on it wrt making openings for attacks. Having the resource return on dodge instead of mob death would scale really well relative to the size of the pull - it wouldn't be a big help in single boss fights, where we can already use siphoning & heavies to manage resources, but for these kinds of multi-heavy fights it could be great. It'd give NBs an opportunity to make a niche as ult-gen tanks instead of being templar heal-tanks' poor cousins. Though it would probably go against the whole point of the "stop permablocking!" nerfs. >>
Thinking aloud here, but blur specifically having a "dodge 5 heavy attacks in 15 seconds, get 3 seconds immovable, occur every 25 seconds/once per cast" kind of effect would enhance the "slippery" feeling Wrobel has said he wants for nbs, but balancing use in PvE tanking against abuse in PvP would be a nightmare. An all-class passive for "block 5 heavies in 12 seconds, get 3 seconds immovable " would give everyone an opportunity to drop block for a heavy attack with 0.75 of a second's grace (so getting back, what, 2-3 seconds worth of blocking if you're in aoe?), but again it'd be bad for PvP. idek anymore. ~.~[/quote
Outside of farming that set, you could also try and just increase your overall Stamina pool. Fairly easy using Draugr Hulk SnB/jewels (or can do 2 body w/ jewels). Adding an additional 8000 stamina to your build may give you the extra buffer you need to get past those harder fights. Otherwise, I’m sure you’ve done this already, but sturdy trait makes a big difference, shadow ward cp, and even tumbling. Can create distance or get you out of CC or heavy ground AoE’s. That’s pretty much it, though. Outside of using Engine Guardian Helm, there isn’t much else to do to make blocking less costly. I know Gilliam prefers infused on every piece for a Sap tank, but remember, he explicitly states that since Morrowind the Sap tank is a shade of what it once used to be (and the infused is with the intent of tossing gold tri-glyph’s on all those pieces). Not incredibly viable in trials, as the damage and healing the Sap can add aren’t necessary in that setting. I’d be very interested to hear what dungeons are giving you the most problems for blocking.
Or hey! If you have a decent mana pool, you can always just backbar a frost staff to put that mana to work. Through The Balance skill, you can get a ton of Magicka back and then use it to heal back up, or for blocking and let your healer take care of you.
re hunt leader - rings only drop in blue too. If you want gold, you need to get on the leaderboards and keep your fingers crossed. (can also be any 'weight' too - same chance to get magicka) There are not many sets left in the game that drop in random weights anymore.
Found this thread in the bug forum re executioner passive:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/379179/bug-executioner-passive
Seems this guy actually figured out when it did/didn't work. No comment about how long it took to notice... As mentioned before NB DPS can rely on leeching/siphoning rotations, tanks can't. Is probably why it's gone under the radar.
Sorcs just need to time their deal, and it gives about 4k stamina back, hats the equivalent of 5 helping hands. The tanks also get a massive 'self' heal from their clanfear that ignores spell symmentry (15k+ no crit for a tank). They also get a magicka class ward which could be used to lessen the chance of being interupted quite considerably.
Heavy attacks mean usually one shot to a non-blocking tank in any sort of serious content, even with capped resistance and plenty of skill points put in Hardy, Elemental Defender, Spell Shield and Ironclad. Those attack usually pack 100K+ base damage, which is only cut in half by those mitigations so you still end up with 50K+. If they are not one shot by their own, they usually knock down or disorient, meaning the next attack will be most likely one-shot. No good healer can save you from not blocking vRoM Chudan spit or Stone Shapers shield slam, vCoS Dranos Velador "steel tornado" and Velidreth's corpulence attack, vFH & vBF minotaur slams, Earthgore Amalgam punches, Dominahus flame attack, vHRC Ra Kotu's sword stike, the Warrior's "death by a hundred cuts", vAA axes, Manticora axe hit, Ozara scream cleave, Rakkat spell attack etc. The good tactic is to fill up your stamina when you can, then block all those attacks. If your stamina pool is low, then 1H+S ultimate is one of the best ways to get a window for filling those resources even in the middle of a heavy attack sequence. If you plan on blocking most of the times I suggest getting your block cost to under 500: 4 Sturdy, 3 shield play enchants and 48 CP in Shadow Ward is about ~450 on PTS.
If you want to save stamina on your Minor/Major mitigation I recommend not using the Heavy Armor skill, but instead gain those using your class skill. For example on my Stamina NB tank I use Refreshing Path for Shadow Barrier passive - Major Ward and Resolve with duration increased by worn heavy armor pieces - and Mirage for the minor buffs and evasion. Those give a really good mitigation together, 6.6K physical and spell resistance, accounting for ~10% mitigation. Also Mirage procs Tava's for fast ultimate recovery, so I can cast Bolstering Drakness fast, to get even more mitigation. I've managed to tank vCoS and vRoM HM without any sustain issues.
Heavy attacks mean usually one shot to a non-blocking tank in any sort of serious content, even with capped resistance and plenty of skill points put in Hardy, Elemental Defender, Spell Shield and Ironclad. Those attack usually pack 100K+ base damage, which is only cut in half by those mitigations so you still end up with 50K+. If they are not one shot by their own, they usually knock down or disorient, meaning the next attack will be most likely one-shot. No good healer can save you from not blocking vRoM Chudan spit or Stone Shapers shield slam, vCoS Dranos Velador "steel tornado" and Velidreth's corpulence attack, vFH & vBF minotaur slams, Earthgore Amalgam punches, Dominahus flame attack, vHRC Ra Kotu's sword stike, the Warrior's "death by a hundred cuts", vAA axes, Manticora axe hit, Ozara scream cleave, Rakkat spell attack etc. The good tactic is to fill up your stamina when you can, then block all those attacks. If your stamina pool is low, then 1H+S ultimate is one of the best ways to get a window for filling those resources even in the middle of a heavy attack sequence. If you plan on blocking most of the times I suggest getting your block cost to under 500: 4 Sturdy, 3 shield play enchants and 48 CP in Shadow Ward is about ~450 on PTS.
If you want to save stamina on your Minor/Major mitigation I recommend not using the Heavy Armor skill, but instead gain those using your class skill. For example on my Stamina NB tank I use Refreshing Path for Shadow Barrier passive - Major Ward and Resolve with duration increased by worn heavy armor pieces - and Mirage for the minor buffs and evasion. Those give a really good mitigation together, 6.6K physical and spell resistance, accounting for ~10% mitigation. Also Mirage procs Tava's for fast ultimate recovery, so I can cast Bolstering Drakness fast, to get even more mitigation. I've managed to tank vCoS and vRoM HM without any sustain issues.
Good to see there is still someone running a stamina NB tank, these were uncommon even in the days of sap tanks, let alone these days. Which sets are you generally running? A sustain presumably?
I was suprised to see brands as the second set, rings were on the golden vendor last weekend I think and I contemplated them at the time but couldn't see me using it in the near future. I didn't realise that set was particularly used due to the shield length
victoriana-blue wrote: »Woo, more nightblade tanks! \o/victoriana-blue wrote: »but I already have major ward & resolve from class abilities.
What class abilities do you use? As a NB tank myself I use Immovable Brute and Mirage, but I'm always looking at different ways to get buffs.
Nightblades have a passive on the shadow line to grant major ward & resolve every time we use a shadow ability, and it lasts longer when you wear more pieces of heavy armor. I use refreshing path every 12 seconds as an off-heal (and to help keep trash mobs on me without taunting), and that pretty much matches the duration of ward & resolve; dark shades would need to be recast early if it was only shadow ability on your bars. The buff duration got extended I think in HOTR, when Wrobel explained the team wants to shift class abilities to give each class a dps, tanking, and healing line; the agony changes were part of making siphoning into healing, while shadow is shifting to tanking.
Do those plans involve equilibrium and/or kiting away? Drastic times call for drastic measures, I guess. XD
re hunt leader - rings only drop in blue too. If you want gold, you need to get on the leaderboards and keep your fingers crossed. (can also be any 'weight' too - same chance to get magicka) There are not many sets left in the game that drop in random weights anymore.
Found this thread in the bug forum re executioner passive:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/379179/bug-executioner-passive
Seems this guy actually figured out when it did/didn't work. No comment about how long it took to notice... As mentioned before NB DPS can rely on leeching/siphoning rotations, tanks can't. Is probably why it's gone under the radar.
Sorcs just need to time their deal, and it gives about 4k stamina back, hats the equivalent of 5 helping hands. The tanks also get a massive 'self' heal from their clanfear that ignores spell symmentry (15k+ no crit for a tank). They also get a magicka class ward which could be used to lessen the chance of being interupted quite considerably.
Like you said exactly .
And I have both tanks above .
I'm testing light armor NB tank build currently , I think stamina regen was not that well for this class and role
At the same time I play my Sorc tank for fun , ward , deal , ward , deal ...
Not much hard time~