[PvP] mDK changes in 3.3.2

DDuke · January 2018

Quantum_V wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Besides, even if I had played the class for only 3 weeks and managed to create one of the strongest open world builds in the current meta while other mDKs who had played since the beta cry about "lack of mobility" and whatnot, I'd be worried.

Are you claiming you made one of the strongest openworld builds in the current meta? If your video is composed of the best clips you got with that build, I'm kinda worried about your defenition of 'one of the strongest open world build in the current meta'.

Not saying it means anything, but as you have to bring this up... /played 82 days on my DC magDK, that's not adding up my EP magDK.

I wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't.

For me the most important part is that a build never feels weak, no matter which builds/classes you're fighting. You always need to be able to either beat your opponents, or escape if there's a build you cannot beat.

My mDK does not have builds it cannot beat in open world (in duels heavy armor Clown King builds & pet sorcs sure - but those aren't a thing in open world) & it rarely has to (try to) escape anything, basically just situations where there's 4+ opponents and no LOS or way to quickly kill some of them.

That's why I think it's one of the strongest builds out there at the moment (of course I'm biased, it's my build after all...).

I think there are some builds that perform stronger, (e.g. TK heavy stam wardens), but not many.

If you've got a mDK video from this patch that 1vXs, duels or does Grp vs Grp just outright better than my build in your opinion, I'd be very interested to see that - just to get some perspective. Much more constructive than just calling someone's build [snip], don't you think?

NyassaV · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

KaiserKnight wrote: »

@DDuke

You are missing the point of all this.

The point is that NB's as @Lord_Hev are upset about mag DK's but it all comes down to how nb's build. If they are built as glass cannons and get killed or do not have the "skill" to avoid damage that's on them. I do not know about EU but NA has plenty of talented medium/heavy armor NBs who can kill great mag dks.

Just as your claim mag DK's can counter medium armor stam classes, they are capable of countering mag dks just as easily. All it takes is a few bleeds, snares, defile, cc, and tactics which is something "some" nightblades have. Once defile is on them their heals will greatly suffer.

Please don't give me the non-sense of the build editor, just about every "good" player uses it and knows what they are dealing with. But be honest with us you didn't do "math" to learn how to survive on your dk, you just spam resto ulti. It's an EZ way to survive and you aren't fooling us with your statement.

And as I have said before:

1) Make Powerlash Undodgeable (It is not a BUG, it was a feature that allowed skilled players to line up burst)
** Remember unlike most classes we do not have an execute **

2) Put the powerlash cooldown on targets/enemy players (NOT ON THE USER OF THE SKILL)
** This is to prevent you from having it on endless cooldown if other players who are set off balance dodge**

^
"EZ" Nothing is unfixable

It was a bug, therefore your entire post will be largely disregarded by many

Actually, I think we’ll disregard you instead.

You’re just another Nightblade who thinks it’s okay to stay within melee range of a naturally high-CC melee ranged class (Dragonknight) and also complain about how difficult of a time you’re having because you use Medium armor (which is your choice, not the Dragonknight’s).

Maybe Medium armor is underperforming which is also debatable, but that isn’t the fault of Power Lash (Flame Lash, which Power Lash procs from, could ALREADY BE DODGED AND PREVENT POWER LASH FROM PROCCING IF THE MEDIUM USER ISN'T A POTATO), it’s the fault of Medium armor being a glass cannon armor type which focuses almost purely on damage output and dodging, sneaking, or sprinting to evade damage which is not a good armor type to use against a melee class like Dragonknight which is built upon PUNISHING attackers that come within their range.

The entire Dragonknight class is MEANT to do its absolute best damage when someone is brave or stupid enough to wander into their immediate melee range. That’s how it has been since launch and that’s how it should stay.

Keep Power Lash undodgeable since FLAME LASH IS ALREADY DODGEABLE.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

It is literally a bug... Not my fault ZoS is stupid. Bugs sorta become features but it's still a bug. Even soul Harvest being dodgable is a bug. Do you know how many dodge bugs are in this game that ZoS doesn't fix? Steel Tornado, blade cloak, both of these are AoE but for some odd reason can be dodged... BTW I don't really play a stamblade

I play magic more often than not, more flavor

DDuke · January 2018

Hollery wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

KaiserKnight wrote: »

@DDuke

You are missing the point of all this.

The point is that NB's as @Lord_Hev are upset about mag DK's but it all comes down to how nb's build. If they are built as glass cannons and get killed or do not have the "skill" to avoid damage that's on them. I do not know about EU but NA has plenty of talented medium/heavy armor NBs who can kill great mag dks.

Just as your claim mag DK's can counter medium armor stam classes, they are capable of countering mag dks just as easily. All it takes is a few bleeds, snares, defile, cc, and tactics which is something "some" nightblades have. Once defile is on them their heals will greatly suffer.

Please don't give me the non-sense of the build editor, just about every "good" player uses it and knows what they are dealing with. But be honest with us you didn't do "math" to learn how to survive on your dk, you just spam resto ulti. It's an EZ way to survive and you aren't fooling us with your statement.

And as I have said before:

1) Make Powerlash Undodgeable (It is not a BUG, it was a feature that allowed skilled players to line up burst)
** Remember unlike most classes we do not have an execute **

2) Put the powerlash cooldown on targets/enemy players (NOT ON THE USER OF THE SKILL)
** This is to prevent you from having it on endless cooldown if other players who are set off balance dodge**

^
"EZ" Nothing is unfixable

It was a bug, therefore your entire post will be largely disregarded by many

Actually, I think we’ll disregard you instead.

You’re just another Nightblade who thinks it’s okay to stay within melee range of a naturally high-CC melee ranged class (Dragonknight) and also complain about how difficult of a time you’re having because you use Medium armor (which is your choice, not the Dragonknight’s).

Maybe Medium armor is underperforming which is also debatable, but that isn’t the fault of Power Lash (Flame Lash, which Power Lash procs from, could ALREADY BE DODGED AND PREVENT POWER LASH FROM PROCCING IF THE MEDIUM USER ISN'T A POTATO), it’s the fault of Medium armor being a glass cannon armor type which focuses almost purely on damage output and dodging, sneaking, or sprinting to evade damage which is not a good armor type to use against a melee class like Dragonknight which is built upon PUNISHING attackers that come within their range.

The entire Dragonknight class is MEANT to do its absolute best damage when someone is brave or stupid enough to wander into their immediate melee range. That’s how it has been since launch and that’s how it should stay.

Keep Power Lash undodgeable since FLAME LASH IS ALREADY DODGEABLE.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

It is literally a bug... Not my fault ZoS is stupid. Bugs sorta become features but it's still a bug. Even soul Harvest being dodgable is a bug. Do you know how many dodge bugs are in this game that ZoS doesn't fix? Steel Tornado, blade cloak, both of these are AoE but for some odd reason can be dodged... BTW I don't really play a stamblade I play magic more often than not, more flavor

Speaking of magblades... thanks for being more mature than the mDK community.

You didn't raise nearly this much noise when Soul Harvest (the only undodgeable mNB burst ability, bugged since the beta like Power Lash) became dodgeable (without any simultaneous buffs or anything like Power Lash is getting).

Savos_Saren · January 2018

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing. Being in the middle of a 10+ enemy group, trying to use CCs- you'll be using Talons- not Fossilize. So, you'll need to get heals and high damage off on multiple targets within quick succession. (I usually pop Talons, Inhale, and then start hitting my surrounding targets with Flame Lash.)

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

DDuke · January 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

Jjitsuboy98 · January 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing. Being in the middle of a 10+ enemy group, trying to use CCs- you'll be using Talons- not Fossilize. So, you'll need to get heals and high damage off on multiple targets within quick succession. (I usually pop Talons, Inhale, and then start hitting my surrounding targets with Flame Lash.)

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

If u have ten people on you that means death no matter what class you are playing. My Stam warden can run around rocks for days and try to burst down some that I separate but more than likely u are dead. Even watching kodis stream a lot he dies all the time on the so called most powerful class. My Stam dk can hold block against five guys if there is no night blade and if they suck. But I do not understand people when they say this destro resto spec is bad open world.

FlamingBeard · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

Good luck getting that 4 second heal from anyone that knows how to survive and avoid MagDK burst (which might as well be considered effortless next patch with Power Lash being dodgeable).

There’s simply no way around it: Power Lash itself needs to remain undodgeable.

If you dodge the first Flame Lash, congratulations, you’ve prevented Power Lash from activating altogether! THAT is all the counterplay necessary for that skill, and saying otherwise is simply pandering to Medium glass armor builds who want to do twice the damage of a MagDK in half the time AND be able to dodge all of MagDK’s effective burst.

usmcjdking · January 2018

KaiserKnight wrote: »

@DDuke

Actually, I've been playing the game for well over a year now.

I only recently activated my forum account. For good reason as you can see, someone has to have an opposing voice to forum trolls advocating for nerfs of our beloved balanced class.

You are a 3 Year Veteran of Stamina Nightblade as you can see in this photo:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/285519184446750722/405760813173964810/unknown.png

Go ahead and start a forum about medium armor and stamina nightblades instead.

I'm sure everyone would love to read your feedback. But three weeks of playing a class, I don't think you fully understand what you are talking about. But I understand, it takes a while to get a good understanding of a class.

lol.

This is why we can't have nice things. This post is stupid beyond all reasonable levels of comprehension.

CaliMade · January 2018

You know there is a champion passive i use on all my stam builds, its called unchained and i use and abuse this. When im taloned and fossilized i break free block and use my Shuffle.

As someone who has well over 90 days played on medium armor stam builds, 75+ on a stamblade. I have NEVER had an issue with powerlashes if anything a dk has ruins me its meteor>fossilize and even thats iffy, only truly being sucessful near laggy keeps.

As someone who has alot of time on both med armor builds and magdks alike power lash not that hard hitting, if you lose near half your health to a power lash thats your bad for being soft. Also if you are complaining about having to block on a stam build. Realise blocking flame lash power lash combo only takes 4k stamina, thats only a little more than what a roll cost. And if your truly huring for stam you can eat the flame lash and block the power lash for less stamina than a dodge roll

Can someone please pull up the threads of people complaining that powerlash is broken or overperforming? I dont ever recall powerlash being an issue before ZOS made it one with this pts.

KaiserKnight · January 2018

The problem is the "meta" heavy builds you describe is what the majority of players run in PvP.

DDuke · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

Good luck getting that 4 second heal from anyone that knows how to survive and avoid MagDK burst (which might as well be considered effortless next patch with Power Lash being dodgeable).

There’s simply no way around it: Power Lash itself needs to remain undodgeable.

I'm getting the 4s heal all the time on PTS against heavy armor block builds & dmg shield builds that can't afford dodging. I'm also landing them frequently on medium builds just by swapping my rotations and being unpredictable (the only part of mDK burst you can actually avoid is that Power Lash).

FlamingBeard wrote: »

If you dodge the first Flame Lash, congratulations, you’ve prevented Power Lash from activating altogether! THAT is all the counterplay necessary for that skill, and saying otherwise is simply pandering to Medium glass armor builds who want to do twice the damage of a MagDK in half the time AND be able to dodge all of MagDK’s effective burst.

You can't avoid the first Flame Lash because it comes straight after Fossilize (CC), which is cast on target every 6 seconds if you're any good at this game.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos · January 2018

The struggles of DDuke lol

FlamingBeard · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

Good luck getting that 4 second heal from anyone that knows how to survive and avoid MagDK burst (which might as well be considered effortless next patch with Power Lash being dodgeable).

There’s simply no way around it: Power Lash itself needs to remain undodgeable.

I'm getting the 4s heal all the time on PTS against heavy armor block builds & dmg shield builds that can't afford dodging. I'm also landing them frequently on medium builds just by swapping my rotations and being unpredictable (the only part of mDK burst you can actually avoid is that Power Lash).

FlamingBeard wrote: »

If you dodge the first Flame Lash, congratulations, you’ve prevented Power Lash from activating altogether! THAT is all the counterplay necessary for that skill, and saying otherwise is simply pandering to Medium glass armor builds who want to do twice the damage of a MagDK in half the time AND be able to dodge all of MagDK’s effective burst.

You can't avoid the first Flame Lash because it comes straight after Fossilize (CC), which is cast on target every 6 seconds if you're any good at this game.

How can you stun someone every 6 seconds?

Did you somehow break through the 7 second CC immunity after breaking CC?

Keep in mind that with immovable potions, you can avoid many Power Lash procs already on Live, and even with the immovable potion nerf next update, the new Power Lash cooldown and dodgeability together will give the opponent a much bigger window to recover than on Live.

KaiserKnight · January 2018

FlamingBeard · January 2018

KaiserKnight wrote: »

@DDuke

You are aren't here to help, you are here to boast about your meme mara build that you can spam resto ulti with. If you manage to pull off that build in solo open world without spamming resto ulti I would actually be impressed. You claim you haven't been PvPing with the build because this patch is "boring". You spend all day on PTS dueling and in the build editor crunching numbers, when you should be testing things in open world combat. Playing the class for 3 weeks and taking it to open world once to kill a few CP 200's and 300's isn't a good measure build/class performance.

What has been made clear is you want these nerfs to occur because you main a stamina nightblade, it is why you are fighting everyone in this forum because you fear that Zenimax will actually listen to it's veteran magicka dragonknight playerbase.

As shown you are a 3 Year Veteran of Stamina Nightblade:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/285519184446750722/405760813173964810/unknown.png
We know that you do not have good intentions for magicka dragonknights and you have a clear bias.

Now you claim your build is "meta" but I am sure if you ask other experienced solo PvPers that would laugh at the fact that you would suggest such a thing. I think your build could be strong for duels, but in open world its nothing more than a joke. So please stop memeing so hard in this forum, and lets get back to reality.

Plays Nightblade for 3 years straight

“Obviously I play Nightblade to gimp myself! /s”

DKsUnite · January 2018

Chori wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

At this point, I'd be willing to pay to see Duke and the DKs in this thread duel to settle their arguments on the battlefield.

problem is dueling is not representative of open world which is basically the whole argument of this entire thread....

In outnumbered situations, I need to be able to power lash multiple people consecutively and have it guaranteed because i need the HoT to survive.

I need the dmg to be undodgable simply because the rolly polly builds are stam who hit hard as *** and i need to pressure them while i fend off 4 others. A power lash is the difference between a stam char having to disengage and heal and continuing their assault. That is a huge difference when fighting outnumbered.

More specifically, while I would love to be able to stack my SD to 4k and wear skoria and kill players with a 15k whip tooltip as they come in 1 by 1, I cant because this isn't what open world cyro is. This is what duels and BGs (to an extent) are. Open world solo cyro is players coming in groups of 4+, bombarding you with debuffs and roots and snares. How long do you think a 10k ward would last in a situation like this? Not long. How long do you think me blocking and healing would last in a situation like this? Probably alot longer.

So my only option is to spec into block reduction at the expense of my damage in hopes to survive this and get my combo off when they make mistakes yet my combo (and heals to an extent) literally ride on power lash being undodgable. This change takes away too much of a mDK's power.

This game isn't and should never be changed/balanced based upon 1vX scenarios.

I don't have to be solo to also have those things happen. I can be with 3 others and a group of 10 pops out of no where, am I supposed to just let go of my mouse and let them kill me because 10 > 4?

Why do you think DKs are asking for mobility. So I can run away from a duel? Why do you think the top tier in cyrodiil are all classes with high mobility?

Savos_Saren · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

@DDuke

I don't take it as flaming, bud. But I definitely know that, on live, I haven't been able to apply Burning Embers to some player targets. As for the medium armor scrubs comment: C'mon man. You can't say that there aren't formidable builds that trade burst for susceptibility. There's plenty of medium armor builds that can pop off combos that will kill you before you can react.
(i.e.: Incap, Fear [which is broken atm], Surprise Attack, Killer's Blade... all before you can even break free)
(i.e.: Dawnbreaker of Smiting, Shalks, Executioner... within the blink of an eye)

Also, Light/Medium armor builds always have the option to wear Fortified Brass/Armor Master to buff their survivability... but most of us want the best damage combination possible. Hell, I run medium Armor Master with Powerful Assault on my StamWarden for group play. You get to keep the 12% weapon damage passive and have very high resistances.

These medium armor builds have very, very powerful burst with survivable aspects like Shuffle, perma-rolls, Vigor, and Rally. So, if an mDK manages to CC them- they can out heal our Burning Embers and dodge our Lashes. We do not have the burst or executes to compete with other classes. We need undodgable attack aspects to our class.

As for the new mDK heal... they're probably doing that to make up for the three second cooldown? I'm completely fine with a 2 second heal and a 2 second cooldown.

Look- I'm all about trying to make a fair, balanced game. Well... as close as we can get since ZoS combines PVE/PVP.

usmcjdking · January 2018

@KaiserKnight

When you are suggesting buffs/nerfs IRT specific classes and races the only important thing is how those buffs/nerfs stack up against other classes in order to preserve general balance. The best way to do this is to have a good understanding of how each class stacks up against each class through experience and shared information.

I've got like 12 days played on my MDK and am an average MDK player at best. But quite of the few posters here and tremendous PVPers are very eager to ask my advice/opinion on builds, gear sets, combinations, rotations and general playstyle adaptations.

But I only have 12 days played so I must be the equivalent of a baby MDK right?

The amount of playtime required to gain a basic level of knowledge on how a class operates is significantly less than 12 days. Sometimes it takes absolutely 0 actual experience for those who have big strong brains. The merit of DDukes posts should be based on the content of his posts, not by his days played. I personally think his build is braindead because there are significantly better ways to achieve better performance out of a concept like that, but I feel no need to comment on his opinion on MDK.

TL;DR stop this nonsense. Either directly attack the subject of his posts or get lost.

KaiserKnight · January 2018

@FlamingBeard

He is just here to disrupt the forum so that progress can't be made. His bias clearly comes from playing medium armor nightblade, and in all honesty I can see why he is complaining because his most recent build is a double bow build on his YT channel.

KaiserKnight · January 2018

@usmcjdking

You make a good point, and I agree with you about his build. I am just trying make the point to @DDuke that telling players who are extremely experienced at playing the class that they have no idea what they are talking about and that they are childish to suggest balance changes that resemble LIVE is completely absurd.

Lord_Hev · January 2018

@Ragnaroek93

The only clown here is you. Screaming the world on fire that sorcs were going to become meta with 50k easy magic. Yet, that has yet to ever happen. It works both ways, I don't take you seriously either. Your playstyle gets everything on a silver platter yet some high damage DK was able to wreck you in a 1v1. Props to that DK, you deserved that wake-up call lol.

DDuke · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

Good luck getting that 4 second heal from anyone that knows how to survive and avoid MagDK burst (which might as well be considered effortless next patch with Power Lash being dodgeable).

There’s simply no way around it: Power Lash itself needs to remain undodgeable.

I'm getting the 4s heal all the time on PTS against heavy armor block builds & dmg shield builds that can't afford dodging. I'm also landing them frequently on medium builds just by swapping my rotations and being unpredictable (the only part of mDK burst you can actually avoid is that Power Lash).

FlamingBeard wrote: »

If you dodge the first Flame Lash, congratulations, you’ve prevented Power Lash from activating altogether! THAT is all the counterplay necessary for that skill, and saying otherwise is simply pandering to Medium glass armor builds who want to do twice the damage of a MagDK in half the time AND be able to dodge all of MagDK’s effective burst.

You can't avoid the first Flame Lash because it comes straight after Fossilize (CC), which is cast on target every 6 seconds if you're any good at this game.

How can you stun someone every 6 seconds?

Did you somehow break through the 7 second CC immunity after breaking CC?

Keep in mind that with immovable potions, you can avoid many Power Lash procs already on Live, and even with the immovable potion nerf next update, the new Power Lash cooldown and dodgeability together will give the opponent a much bigger window to recover than on Live.

CC immunity is 6 seconds. Another misconception to correct I suppose.

And yes, you can get to live an extra few seconds with immov pots on Live too, though you'd probably preferably use those for the heal after a mDK has chains+empower leap'd you for most of your health pool

As I said, even with dodgeable Power Lash, mDK is still destroying dodge rollers (though it's sliiightly more manageable for them now).

DDuke · January 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

@DDuke

I don't take it as flaming, bud. But I definitely know that, on live, I haven't been able to apply Burning Embers to some player targets. As for the medium armor scrubs comment: C'mon man. You can't say that there aren't formidable builds that trade burst for susceptibility. There's plenty of medium armor builds that can pop off combos that will kill you before you can react.
(i.e.: Incap, Fear [which is broken atm], Surprise Attack, Killer's Blade... all before you can even break free)
(i.e.: Dawnbreaker of Smiting, Shalks, Executioner... within the blink of an eye)

Also, Light/Medium armor builds always have the option to wear Fortified Brass/Armor Master to buff their survivability... but most of us want the best damage combination possible. Hell, I run medium Armor Master with Powerful Assault on my StamWarden for group play. You get to keep the 12% weapon damage passive and have very high resistances.

These medium armor builds have very, very powerful burst with survivable aspects like Shuffle, perma-rolls, Vigor, and Rally. So, if an mDK manages to CC them- they can out heal our Burning Embers and dodge our Lashes. We do not have the burst or executes to compete with other classes. We need undodgable attack aspects to our class.

As for the new mDK heal... they're probably doing that to make up for the three second cooldown? I'm completely fine with a 2 second heal and a 2 second cooldown.

Look- I'm all about trying to make a fair, balanced game. Well... as close as we can get since ZoS combines PVE/PVP.

If you die to burst damage, your build is ill-optimized. It's as simple as that. No offense.

In the end, it's just numbers, math.

All you have to do to survive burst is calculate the worst, most nightmarish gank builds (ESO Build Editor helps), apply Battle Spirit, modifiers etc, combine tooltips & see how much people can hit you for.

Then you reduce your mitigation (https://jscalc.io/calc/fiasVNPSGsOdmsF6) from that number and add the (opponents crit modifier%-your crit mitigation%) to the total burst.

Now you know exactly how much health you need to survive opponent burst, and how low you can fall during a fight and not get killed by it.

Thanks to this, I never ever die to those combos - if you want to kill my DK you fight the long fight (with TK+Heavy Armor) or you bring friends.

And no, Fortified Brass, Armor Master etc don't help you survive.

Even a heavy armor Legion+Blood Spawn dueling meta build struggles to survive longer than 20s vs a high dmg mDK.

You need either Troll King+S&B or Troll King+Legion (or similar heavy armor) to survive.

I'm also all about fair, balanced game. There is currently absolutely nothing balanced about Power Lash vs dodge roll builds.

So far I haven't dueled anyone in medium who'd survive 20s+, even on PTS.

Note: I speak from the perspective of an extremely high dmg destro/resto mDK, not a S&B permablocker who might have issues dealing enough damage to stamina builds. All I can say to that is: you can't have it all (be tanky & deal lots of dmg), not unless you happen to play a stamina build & slot something meta like Legion+Troll King...

FlamingBeard · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

Good luck getting that 4 second heal from anyone that knows how to survive and avoid MagDK burst (which might as well be considered effortless next patch with Power Lash being dodgeable).

There’s simply no way around it: Power Lash itself needs to remain undodgeable.

I'm getting the 4s heal all the time on PTS against heavy armor block builds & dmg shield builds that can't afford dodging. I'm also landing them frequently on medium builds just by swapping my rotations and being unpredictable (the only part of mDK burst you can actually avoid is that Power Lash).

FlamingBeard wrote: »

If you dodge the first Flame Lash, congratulations, you’ve prevented Power Lash from activating altogether! THAT is all the counterplay necessary for that skill, and saying otherwise is simply pandering to Medium glass armor builds who want to do twice the damage of a MagDK in half the time AND be able to dodge all of MagDK’s effective burst.

You can't avoid the first Flame Lash because it comes straight after Fossilize (CC), which is cast on target every 6 seconds if you're any good at this game.

How can you stun someone every 6 seconds?

Did you somehow break through the 7 second CC immunity after breaking CC?

Keep in mind that with immovable potions, you can avoid many Power Lash procs already on Live, and even with the immovable potion nerf next update, the new Power Lash cooldown and dodgeability together will give the opponent a much bigger window to recover than on Live.

CC immunity is 6 seconds. Another misconception to correct I suppose.

And yes, you can get to live an extra few seconds with immov pots on Live too, though you'd probably preferably use those for the heal after a mDK has chains+empower leap'd you for most of your health pool

As I said, even with dodgeable Power Lash, mDK is still destroying dodge rollers (though it's sliiightly more manageable for them now).

Woah there buddy LOL

I play magicka Templar and I've had the pleasure of dealing with plenty of terrible and below-average MagDKs.

One of the very few magDKs that can dent my health is @KaiserKnight because he's good enough of a player to work around Templar's cleansing effects.

Most magDKs are lucky to get in 2 or three dots on my health bar let alone stun, immobilize, Flame Lash, and then Power Lash me. lol

Medium armor builds are not MEANT to have many counters to magDKs because magDKs are partial counters to THEM if they dare to stay close to the magDK for whatever reason. Get better at ganking or bursting if you want to kill magDKs as a medium Stamblade, or get out. lol

Like I've said before, the counters to magDK have always been range, mobility, or Templars.

And one of the counters to a Templar's burst is, guess what, magDK!

They complement each others' weaknesses and strengths when playing together, and they nearly completely checkmate one another when playing against one another.

So you keep spreading your whiny "b- b- but I can't dodge this melee ranged damage that I walked right into!!!" and we'll continue shaking our heads.

DDuke · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

Good luck getting that 4 second heal from anyone that knows how to survive and avoid MagDK burst (which might as well be considered effortless next patch with Power Lash being dodgeable).

There’s simply no way around it: Power Lash itself needs to remain undodgeable.

I'm getting the 4s heal all the time on PTS against heavy armor block builds & dmg shield builds that can't afford dodging. I'm also landing them frequently on medium builds just by swapping my rotations and being unpredictable (the only part of mDK burst you can actually avoid is that Power Lash).

FlamingBeard wrote: »

If you dodge the first Flame Lash, congratulations, you’ve prevented Power Lash from activating altogether! THAT is all the counterplay necessary for that skill, and saying otherwise is simply pandering to Medium glass armor builds who want to do twice the damage of a MagDK in half the time AND be able to dodge all of MagDK’s effective burst.

You can't avoid the first Flame Lash because it comes straight after Fossilize (CC), which is cast on target every 6 seconds if you're any good at this game.

How can you stun someone every 6 seconds?

Did you somehow break through the 7 second CC immunity after breaking CC?

Keep in mind that with immovable potions, you can avoid many Power Lash procs already on Live, and even with the immovable potion nerf next update, the new Power Lash cooldown and dodgeability together will give the opponent a much bigger window to recover than on Live.

CC immunity is 6 seconds. Another misconception to correct I suppose.

And yes, you can get to live an extra few seconds with immov pots on Live too, though you'd probably preferably use those for the heal after a mDK has chains+empower leap'd you for most of your health pool

As I said, even with dodgeable Power Lash, mDK is still destroying dodge rollers (though it's sliiightly more manageable for them now).

Woah there buddy LOL

I play magicka Templar and I've had the pleasure of dealing with plenty of terrible and below-average MagDKs.

One of the very few magDKs that can dent my health is @KaiserKnight because he's good enough of a player to work around Templar's cleansing effects.

Most magDKs are lucky to get in 2 or three dots on my health bar let alone stun, immobilize, Flame Lash, and then Power Lash me. lol

Medium armor builds are not MEANT to have many counters to magDKs because magDKs are partial counters to THEM.

Like I've said before, the counters to magDK have always been range, mobility, or Templars.

And one of the counters to a Templar's burst is, guess what, magDK!

They complement each others' weaknesses and strengths when playing together, and they nearly completely checkmate one another when playing against one another.

So you keep spreading your whiny "b- b- but I can't dodge this melee ranged damage that I walked right into!!!" and we'll continue shaking our heads.

I was 4th I believe in a big EU dueling tournament. The last qualifying round before I lost to a pet sorc was against a player who is considered one of best magplars (if not the best magplar) in EU.

I find magplars a slightly favoured match up for my build (the only unfavoured ones are TK Heavy Armor stam builds & pet sorcs).

With destro staff you're constantly debuffing them with Burning status effect, BSW proc, Embers, Minor Vulnerability procs etc and they can't keep up with cleanses, not without risking losing to burst or running out of magicka.

One of the biggest reasons I'm playing a destro/resto build is being able to burst down pug healers before they ruin your day. S&B builds cannot (usually) do this.

I'm sorry you're not finding success with your mDK and refuse to listen to people who do (especially on PTS). I can't help with that so I'm done with this circular conversation where mDK being overpowered against dodge roll builds is justified by "they're supposed to be".

FlamingBeard · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'll weigh in my two cents worth:

I've used mDK in PVE and PVP (to include dueling, AvA, and BGs). You have to utilize different skills/setups for BGs and AvA. While I actually think that @DDuke has a great dueling/BGs setup- I don't think it would work for all out AvA fights. Yes, it'll definitely work against a couple of opponents who are separated from the zerg. I've battled people like @Thogard and his buddies in BGs and you have to be very decisive on your combat and timing.

It works in AvA, but it doesn't tank zergs like S&B builds - you pick your targets more carefully but kill them twice as fast as a S&B build would. Just requires a different playstyle that most mDKs that have gotten used to S&B tanking aren't used to.

I have a video full of AvA fights with this build (from 1v2s to 1v5+ fights) & I've no cause to complain about its AvA performance.

Duels on the other hand... let's just say I'm not very fond of the combination of Troll King+heavy armor/S&B (but then again, apart from pet sorcs who is?).

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I do not like the niche build of using a lightning staff for perma-spamming Flame Lash, either. I would absolutely hate it if a Warden/Sorc/Templar could spam me with Shalks/Frags/Dark Flare with no slight delay in between.

I think the best compromise of the flame lash ability for PVE, AvA, BG, and dueling would be:

-Keep flame lash as dodgable- but have powerlash as undodgable. Remember: mDKs do not have an execute. We've got to put some sort of unpurgable pressure on an opponent.

-Make Powerlash on a 2 second cooldown. It'll pair well with the 2 second heal from Powerlash. Also, only having a two second cool down will allow you to move to multiple targets (while using talons) to proc it on surrounding enemies. It'll also discourage DKs from proccing multiple Powerlashes on a single enemy.

So you'd have it exactly as it is on Live (where most dodge roll builds don't live past the first Fossilize, and none live more than 20 seconds), except that mDKs would be able to Power Lash 2,5x more often and it would no longer remove Off Balance?

And you honestly think that wouldn't make the remaining medium armor scrubs quit the game?

Look, I get it... we all want to be super op, survive everything, kill everyone, only buffs no nerfs yadda yadda.

That's not how things work. You look at the big picture and see what's good for the game in general, not just what's good for mDKs.

Also, Power Lash has a 4 second heal now (with 2x stronger tooltip) now btw.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Side Note: Why do people keep saying that Burning Embers isn't dodgable? I can confirm that during fights I've been unable to tag people with Burning Embers. Usually the enemy is running Shuffle on their bar. My mDK will make a half-assed swat movement and not apply Burning Embers to them. Also- the tooltip doesn't say "This ability cannot be dodged."

Well, just tested it again (on a stamblade with Major Evasion active), not dodgeable with normal dodge roll & not dodgeable with Major Evasion (spammed Embers around 40 times for a good sample size).

Don't take this as flaming, it's just that many people have some misconceptions (like that Embers thing above) on how mDK functions in PvP & I'm here to correct them.

Good luck getting that 4 second heal from anyone that knows how to survive and avoid MagDK burst (which might as well be considered effortless next patch with Power Lash being dodgeable).

There’s simply no way around it: Power Lash itself needs to remain undodgeable.

I'm getting the 4s heal all the time on PTS against heavy armor block builds & dmg shield builds that can't afford dodging. I'm also landing them frequently on medium builds just by swapping my rotations and being unpredictable (the only part of mDK burst you can actually avoid is that Power Lash).

FlamingBeard wrote: »

If you dodge the first Flame Lash, congratulations, you’ve prevented Power Lash from activating altogether! THAT is all the counterplay necessary for that skill, and saying otherwise is simply pandering to Medium glass armor builds who want to do twice the damage of a MagDK in half the time AND be able to dodge all of MagDK’s effective burst.

You can't avoid the first Flame Lash because it comes straight after Fossilize (CC), which is cast on target every 6 seconds if you're any good at this game.

How can you stun someone every 6 seconds?

Did you somehow break through the 7 second CC immunity after breaking CC?

Keep in mind that with immovable potions, you can avoid many Power Lash procs already on Live, and even with the immovable potion nerf next update, the new Power Lash cooldown and dodgeability together will give the opponent a much bigger window to recover than on Live.

CC immunity is 6 seconds. Another misconception to correct I suppose.

And yes, you can get to live an extra few seconds with immov pots on Live too, though you'd probably preferably use those for the heal after a mDK has chains+empower leap'd you for most of your health pool

As I said, even with dodgeable Power Lash, mDK is still destroying dodge rollers (though it's sliiightly more manageable for them now).

Woah there buddy LOL

I play magicka Templar and I've had the pleasure of dealing with plenty of terrible and below-average MagDKs.

One of the very few magDKs that can dent my health is @KaiserKnight because he's good enough of a player to work around Templar's cleansing effects.

Most magDKs are lucky to get in 2 or three dots on my health bar let alone stun, immobilize, Flame Lash, and then Power Lash me. lol

Medium armor builds are not MEANT to have many counters to magDKs because magDKs are partial counters to THEM.

Like I've said before, the counters to magDK have always been range, mobility, or Templars.

And one of the counters to a Templar's burst is, guess what, magDK!

They complement each others' weaknesses and strengths when playing together, and they nearly completely checkmate one another when playing against one another.

So you keep spreading your whiny "b- b- but I can't dodge this melee ranged damage that I walked right into!!!" and we'll continue shaking our heads.

I was 4th I believe in a big EU dueling tournament. The last qualifying round before I lost to a pet sorc was against a player who is considered one of best magplars (if not the best magplar) in EU.

I find magplars a slightly favoured match up for my build (the only unfavoured ones are TK Heavy Armor stam builds & pet sorcs).

With destro staff you're constantly debuffing them with Burning status effect, BSW proc, Embers, Minor Vulnerability procs etc and they can't keep up with cleanses, not without risking losing to burst or running out of magicka.

One of the biggest reasons I'm playing a destro/resto build is being able to burst down pug healers before they ruin your day. S&B builds cannot (usually) do this.

I'm sorry you're not finding success with your mDK and refuse to listen to people who do (especially on PTS). I can't help with that so I'm done with this circular conversation where mDK being overpowered against dodge roll builds is justified by "they're supposed to be".

You have your extremely questionable opinion on how magDK should be balanced, but the majority here has a rather consistent one which deems that Power Lash needs more revision before it can go to Live.

I'll agree with the magDKs who have been playing for years, some since the game launched, before I listen to a Nightblade main who went for a test drive on a magDK for a couple days.

Savos_Saren · January 2018

@DDuke

I think I just figured out why the Power Lash heal reads 4 seconds. It's an error. If you log into PTS under a new character- select the flame lash ability. Read the tooltip. It will say "2 seconds". Then, go to the passives and put two points into the "Searing Heat" passive. It'll add two seconds to your Power Lash heal. This is not intended. Searing Heat is not supposed to increase the duration of that ability by 2 seconds. It's supposed to increase the duration of Firey Breath, Searing Strike, and DK Standard. It's a bug.

As for this comment: "If you die to burst damage, your build is ill-optimized. It's as simple as that. No offense." The same can be said of a medium armor build.

DDuke · January 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@DDuke

I think I just figured out why the Power Lash heal reads 4 seconds. It's an error. If you log into PTS under a new character- select the flame lash ability. Read the tooltip. It will say "2 seconds". Then, go to the passives and put two points into the "Searing Heat" passive. It'll add two seconds to your Power Lash heal. This is not intended. Searing Heat is not supposed to increase the duration of that ability by 2 seconds. It's supposed to increase the duration of Firey Breath, Searing Strike, and DK Standard. It's a bug.

As for this comment: "If you die to burst damage, your build is ill-optimized. It's as simple as that. No offense." The same can be said of a medium armor build.

I'd like to see you calculate a medium armor build that has a spammable heal/dmg (or Vigor/Rally strong enough) to consistently stay above the burst range against a mDK that will be glued to you 24/7 with Empowering Chains.

My own stam builds survive high dmg mDK burst (they've just enough health for that), but they don't survive high sustained, unavoidable damage - so you're dead within a few seconds no matter what.

Trust me, spent unhealthy amounts of time on Build Editor trying to find a silver bullet. One doesn't exist.

KaiserKnight · January 2018

@FlamingBeard

I agree with you 100%.

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@DDuke

I think I just figured out why the Power Lash heal reads 4 seconds. It's an error. If you log into PTS under a new character- select the flame lash ability. Read the tooltip. It will say "2 seconds". Then, go to the passives and put two points into the "Searing Heat" passive. It'll add two seconds to your Power Lash heal. This is not intended. Searing Heat is not supposed to increase the duration of that ability by 2 seconds. It's supposed to increase the duration of Firey Breath, Searing Strike, and DK Standard. It's a bug.

As for this comment: "If you die to burst damage, your build is ill-optimized. It's as simple as that. No offense." The same can be said of a medium armor build.

Oh my god so his entire argument that “you now get a 4 second heal so you should be happy” is actually IRRELEVANT?

So Power Lash is REALLY going to be bad if it goes to Live the way they intend.

You also just ended his world with that last remark.