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MagDK + Power Lash + Update 17 = ??????

Pr0Skygon
Pr0Skygon
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Before representing my calculation, let's preview some of the highlight in the recent PTS patches:
1. Using a Heavy Attack against an Off Balance enemy will now only consume the Off Balance debuff if the enemy is successfully stunned.
This new behavior also applies to the Power Lash ability. You can use Power Lash on an enemy until the Off Balance effect expires or is consumed.
2. Boss enemies can only be set Off Balance once every 15 to 20 seconds. After the first Off Balance debuff ends on a boss enemy, they will be immune to subsequent Off Balance debuffs until this immunity duration is over.
3. Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.
Lava Whip: This ability and its morphs no longer have a cooldown when they can set the enemy target Off Balance. Striking a stunned or immobile enemy will always set them Off Balance.
Ok now to the math part!

First off, let's talk about PvE, or more specifically, the juicy stuff, trials. On this math test, we will count for how many Power Lash proc you can pull off in 20 seconds.
On live: Since Flame Lash can only set enemy off balance every 5 seconds, the rational result might be 4 Power Lash proc, but you're dead wrong, because that 5 seconds cooldown only apply to the boss to prevent you from setting it off balance, but not your allies. If you count on group play, the number will go up and up, which make magDK life a bless. Of course, if you talk about rotation, nobody in their right mind will just stand there and Flame Lash the whole way to victory, but this is just for math test.
On PTS: This is where things get ugly. If you try it alone on a target dummy, you'll see that the number does not change a lot, because target dummies are not counted as "bosses", so the 15-20 seconds cooldown does not apply to them. But in real trial, that 20 seconds cooldown is severe. And if you think you can proc Power Lash for infinite amount of time, then there's a 3 seconds cooldown on you to prevent that. Which means even if you change the target for example in vHOF, you still cannot proc Power Lash in that 3 seconds windows. So now on PTS, for every 20 seconds, you can only have 1 to 3 Power Lash, depends on what kind of off balance the boss is being affected by, it might be 10 secs, or even 2 secs (seriously, deep breath only provides 2 secs off balance). If we put this into a dps rotation, magDK might only be able to pull of 1 Power Lash every 20 seconds, which is crazy.

Secondly, we get to PvP. I'll be short because the point is already said previously. The cooldown of Power Lash is now on you, not your target. Which means, if you choose to switch target mid fight (which happens a lot in Cyro and BGs), you'll find yourself stuck with that 3 seconds windows without any Power Lash. But hey, at least it's only 3 seconds now, and not 5 seconds.

On the PvP site, this change might not be so critical, but omg with the PvE. MagDK is already a suffering class setup in PvE, with no group contribution, overall lower DPS than magSorc and magNB, and comes with painfully almost 0 sustain built in mechanic. What bothers me even more is what ZOS comment about this change, which is nothing actually. They put devs comment everywhere else, but this.
I'd love to hear what guys have to say about this. Am I right? Am I wrong? Cast your vote people!
Edited by Pr0Skygon on January 23, 2018 6:54PM

MagDK + Power Lash + Update 17 = ?????? 104 votes

You're correct, and we're doomed
42%
WatchYourSixxKhajiitHasSkoomaLonePiratecoplannb16_ESODUTCH_REAPERCouslyMyerscodPassifestAquanovaArchamusGrabmooreRAB1979krathosAliyavanajakeedmundson VoxicityTheHsNNateS4alephthiagosmoothscape 44 votes
You're totally wrong, and thank god to that
11%
kaithuzarmoutonAzuryaDDukeMinalanWaffennachtMilwaukeeScottLord_EomerKramUzibracokktokrystinathealienCharliff1966 12 votes
I'm mixed about this, I sure want to get more info about this change in future patch notes
19%
NewBlacksmurfPhilhypeShareeskinnycheeksiTzSteveyRex-UmbraMartowistalapod88kkThe_LexAeremAdenomaQbikenNephilim_NLYamensteinMorgul667LokiLokeVJzooRagnarock41TheKingofSass 20 votes
I don't care, magDK is already dead
20%
StamdenFaulgorsebbanMalthornekojouSmoltjtidedeadvoltMic1007mandricusValykcKillabuzJaminiRandomName123OlupajmibananmrfudaZaarocHamburglarjonesJierdanitVilniusNastavnik 21 votes
I don't even play magDK
4%
TwohothardwareraynasaSubversusMyrddinEmrysDaedric_NB_187 5 votes
Others (write your answer below)
1%
SirCriticalIntegral1900 2 votes
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    oops, forgot to add the smiley face :smiley: There you go
  • WillhelmBlack
    WillhelmBlack
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    "we've nerfed Power Lash to make the other morph that we forgot the name of seem more attractive.".

    ZOS.

    PC EU
  • Integral1900
    Integral1900
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    Others (write your answer below)
    Stopped using whip ages ago, I had taken it of the bar, can’t remember why but I noticed the heavy attacks critting for 24000, sometimes for over 30000, also the heavy attack animation is way more impressive B)
  • NewBlacksmurf
    NewBlacksmurf
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    I'm mixed about this, I sure want to get more info about this change in future patch notes
    I think I've come to a point where the skills now require add-ons to play in addition to knowing timers from frequent updates.

    I can't say that you're math is right or wrong because I primarily play on Xbox One X.....what I can say is I've reset all my characters CP and Skill points after a big Morrowind update and have some basic skills for my main crafter and my DK just sits on the log-in screen in a fresh outfit.

    I don't know but I think I see this game is no longer going to be for me. Its moving from a TES type of MMO to an overcomplicated new version of WoW+Ever Quest

    That and considering I would have to adapt with only SCT and Debuffs, this isn't going to work as if I wanted to have 79 items floating on my screen, there are much better games.
    -PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
    ~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *501
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    I don't care, magDK is already dead
    MagDK was unwanted in serious trial groups anyways. Now we can change the word "unwanted" to "pestilent" :-D You will now actually hurt your group as trial leader by taking magDK on board xD

    I've already reworked my magDK to be PvP only, soo whatever.
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    MagDK was unwanted in serious trial groups anyways. Now we can change the word "unwanted" to "pestilent" :-D You will now actually hurt your group as trial leader by taking magDK on board xD

    I've already reworked my magDK to be PvP only, soo whatever.

    That's just savage, but my magDK is now also a PvP focus toon :(
  • SASQUATCH0
    SASQUATCH0
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    Pr0Skygon wrote: »
    MagDK was unwanted in serious trial groups anyways. Now we can change the word "unwanted" to "pestilent" :-D You will now actually hurt your group as trial leader by taking magDK on board xD

    I've already reworked my magDK to be PvP only, soo whatever.

    That's just savage, but my magDK is now also a PvP focus toon :(

    Same :(
  • KhajiitHasSkooma
    KhajiitHasSkooma
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    The part that really pisses me off is that the cooldown is such a lazy way of dealing with the new offbalance. It was literally suggested on here by some of the most vocal QQers. The first cooldown on a skill in ESO. So now ZOS is putting a mechanic I hate the most about other MMOs on my favorite skill on my favorite class. RIP.

    On a more serious note, there are other ways to control the amount of Power Lashing that happens. Give it a 6 second timer when lashing can happen. Or whatever time is best for balance. Something other than 'cooldown'.
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    Ah yeah, I forgot to add more bad news: Power Lash is now able to be dodged, and once again, no comment from the devs whatsoever. I kinda understand the change, but damn, we magDK gets heavy nerfs on our primary skill, and without any buff? Really?
  • KhajiitHasSkooma
    KhajiitHasSkooma
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    Pr0Skygon wrote: »
    Ah yeah, I forgot to add more bad news: Power Lash is now able to be dodged, and once again, no comment from the devs whatsoever. I kinda understand the change, but damn, we magDK gets heavy nerfs on our primary skill, and without any buff? Really?

    Wardens have an undodgeable spammable that can be built to hit hard. Yet a conditional morph of a skill being undoddgeable is too powerful for DKs to have...

    No consistency.
  • SirCritical
    SirCritical
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    Others (write your answer below)
    Dat banhammer incoming :D

    You're right again.
  • beetleklee
    beetleklee
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    Mine's just gonna collect dust being my quester/crafter and I'll continue to bring StamDK to trials and level my MagNB. I really love the MagDK playstyle but my StamDK does more damage with an easier rotation and has no sustain issues. I parse like 5k higher on my StamDK, and never run out of stam, while my MagDK gasps for Magicka after 2 or 3 rotations, even with 1300 mag regen with Witchmothers.

    If I do pledges with my MagDK and the other DPS is a stam build, I notice how quickly I run out of magicka without off balance and it shouldn't have to be like that.
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  • RandomName123
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    I don't care, magDK is already dead
    Noone at ZoS ever plays the game, let alone a DK, so it's not surprising when they make changes like these. I'm sure they'd understand our concerns if only we would buy a few more crown crates
  • Tarrocan
    Tarrocan
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    u right ,for pvp that's "Not" a big change, but i love pve too :(
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  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.

    But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
  • Kolzki
    Kolzki
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    Wasn’t skills not having cool downs supposed to be the thing that made eso combat faster and more fun than other MMOs?
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    You're totally wrong, and thank god to that
    Kolzki wrote: »
    Wasn’t skills not having cool downs supposed to be the thing that made eso combat faster and more fun than other MMOs?

    The skill itself doesn't have a cooldown - only the proc does. You can keep using Flame Lash when Power Lash is on cooldown.

    I don't know if 3s cooldown on Power Lash is that big of a deal for PvE either, you're not only using whip as a magicka DK, you weave your DoTs, WoEs etc inbetween so the 3s cooldown should have a very limited effect.

    The only thing that has a big effect when it comes to PvE is the cooldown on Off Balance.


    I hope they rework the other whip morph into a proper PvE morph that helps mDKs, because removing the cooldown on Power Lash is not an option if they care about PvP at all.
    Edited by DDuke on January 23, 2018 9:25PM
  • KaiserKnight
    KaiserKnight
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    I predicted that this kind of nerf would occur once Zenimax announced changes for powerlash. This patch was supposed to be about the oufit system, new dungeons, and home storage. Instead combat DEVS completely steamroll the main spammable for magicka dragonknights. @ZOS_Wrobel said that there would be a cooldown on powerlash but you would be able to do a few in a timeframe on ESO live and they made no mention that it would be dodgeable. But SUPRISE SUPRISE (not really) they decided to call it being "undodgeable" a bug which is a lazy way to nerf something without justifying it. It has been undodgeable for YEARS, instead of asking for reasonable balance changes or making it close to how it is on "LIVE", ZOS decides to appease all the salty players in the forums who seem to only recognize that they happen to be strong in 1 v 1's. Any class can be strong in a 1 v 1 if they build for it, but duels should not be a BASELINE to nerf an entire classes main spammable. Duels are not a good representation of class performance because duels are hugely dependent on builds not just class. The powerlash cooldown is not "COOL" because it applies to you and not your target. Which means if another player is set off balance and dodges YOU are punished for not hitting them even if you are focusing someone else. So your powerlash will be on endless cooldown. This is broken and needs to be addressed. We can't wait until the summer to become "viable" again just because you decide to pull these changes out MID PTS as always leaving us no TIME to provide feedback for changes. @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert.

    1) Make powerlash undodgeable again

    2) Make the powerlash cooldown on the target not on the user

    ^

    Problem solved.
  • LonePirate
    LonePirate
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    I think the Mag DK playstyle was created by thoughtful designers and developers with a clear understanding of and vision for the class. Unfortunately, I don’t think those people work for ZOS any more.
  • Mic1007
    Mic1007
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    I don't care, magDK is already dead
    This option saddened me, as it's too accurate to ignore. :cry:
    @Mic1007
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  • krathos
    krathos
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    Patch after patch we get this treatment. Something small is given in the first round, and then we get massive nerfs the next cycle. Oh hey petrify is a stun now instead of a crappy disorient that gave the enemy a damage shield... yay!... ohhhhhh I'm sorry it's now 8 meter range... Oh hey power lash gets to stun enemies now in pvp and can be used multiple times from a single proc! (Even magdks were like ok multiple uses is too strong we can change that!)... aaaaaaaaaaaand now it can only be USED once every 5 seconds aaaaaaaaaaand we fixed the "bug" where it was dodgeable.

    Here's the thing. Saying it was a "bug" is lying. Stop lying. It has been undodgeable for nearly 4 years. In fact, whip used to not be dodgeable and that was fixed over 2 years ago... so why not change power lash then too? It's not like it has been unknown. Powerlash being undodgeable is essential to the pvp magdk kill combo. It's what makes fossilize still viable. You dot them up, you fossilize them. You proc power lash and when they roll out of the fossilize root you use it. We have no execute, no functioning gap closer, an absolute trash class heal, and our spammable has one of the lowest base damage modifiers in the game. No mobility, reduced ability to stand our ground, and now youre further reducing our toolkit ONCE AGAIN. You continue to reduce magdks to being block holding, talon spamming, pvp tanks... which is the type of magdks people hate. This is a thoughtless response to broken dueling setups that are GEAR driven and the recent offbalance changes for PvE. Please stop.

    Meanwhile, cliffracer has a way higher damage, insane range, and is undodgeable as a spammable. WHY. Power lash (the proc) needs to remain undodgeable or all the other undodgeable like cliffracer needs to be dodgeable too.
    Edited by krathos on January 23, 2018 10:54PM
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • krathos
    krathos
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.

    But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.

    @Chilly-McFreeze because it is how the magdk kit was designed and ZOS continues to remove small pieces of it to the point where it continues to disrupt skill synergy and flow. Powerlash being undodgeable isn't a bug. It was by design and their labeling of it as a bug is just a slap in the face. A lot of what the magdk used to have has been picked apart so that the skills no longer make sense. They no longer flow together in a logical way. Power lash (mind you this is JUST the proc) is used after applying DoT pressure, using fossilize (which encourages the opponent to dodge). It's part of the DK kill combo and why they don't have things like an execute. Birds being dodgeable and powerlash being dodgeable are two different things. You can spam birds, at range, with huge damage and a 15% increased modifier on top of that. Power lash takes time to setup. It's a combo ability and the closest thing a dk has to an execute. If powerlash was spammable like the first patch notes of the PTS then sure make it dodgeable but now it's usable once every 5 seconds and will be dodged a lot because it's designed to be used against people who are dodging post CC and the damage is still low compared to other spammable abilities such as surprise attack, cliffracer, etc.

    Edited by krathos on January 23, 2018 11:04PM
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    You're totally wrong, and thank god to that
    How can anyone be sad about PvE dps when Magden is out there is beyond me
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
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  • KingExecration
    KingExecration
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    Mag dk + power lash + update 17 = reroll
    Been loving how nice other classes are than playing an armadillo with no armor. #Whatsadragonknight
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    I'm mixed about this, I sure want to get more info about this change in future patch notes
    How can anyone be sad about PvE dps when Magden is out there is beyond me

    wardens are lame and boring. magDks on the other hand are cool looking - fire breathing beasts. o:)
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 24, 2018 12:58AM
  • Hamburglarjones
    Hamburglarjones
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    I don't care, magDK is already dead
    Kolzki wrote: »
    Wasn’t skills not having cool downs supposed to be the thing that made eso combat faster and more fun than other MMOs?

    Yep
    Boone
    Dunmer Magicka DragonKnight
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  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    I'm mixed about this, I sure want to get more info about this change in future patch notes
    I think its about time battle roar changes are reverted, so both magDk and stamDK gets their sustain back.

    Tho Im pretty sure that alone won't solve the magDK pve issue, they need to stop depending on power lash so much, and that needs a few changes to how the class works.


  • krathos
    krathos
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    ... just block the power lash... you know it's coming. it's the most predictable *** in the game.
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.

    But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.

    Power Lash is a proc, which can only occur once every 5 seconds on each target (on Live), and it's a main component in magDK kit.
    And even if the target can dodge it, the 5 seconds cooldown will not be applied to them, which means magDK can get another proc of Power Lash on them anyway, till it actually lands.
    Just remember of how painful it is when Dawnbreaker was able to be dodged :( It's painful to see your main kit can be avoided which such an easy manner.
  • Voxicity
    Voxicity
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    You're correct, and we're doomed
    Already preparing my magplar, I refuse to play this busted class any more until it's fixed
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