Why PvP will never be fixed as is 2014-2018 (DAoC all over again)

lao · January 2018

so much false information in this thread.

let me set some things right.

regarding lag:

as some1 who has played DAoC since the early beta days and kept playing the game until 2017 i can assure you that the game never had any lag issues that are remotely comparable to what ESO is suffering from. even in relic raid fights the worst you would ever encounter were a few lag ghosts that would occur when some1 ran at you on speed 6 and then /faced you and started casting. it would then appear as if that person would still run at you while you could see the casting animation already. this only lasted for about 1-2 secs and then the ghost would disappear and the player would reappear at the position he first started casting. for an experienced player this was hardly an issue to deal with tho. another lag issue the game had that had abit more of an impact was lag ghosts of pets that made it possible to chase a group despite not beeing in clip range. you could just follow the trail of pet lag ghosts till you eventually caught up. i could explain why this was happening but i dont want to bore you with technical details about networking in the early 2000´s.

what alot of you ppl might have considered as lag was a trick that was known as "window dragging" it was an exploit. you could run the game in windowed mode and when you dragged the window while running you would appear as still running on other ppls screen even tho you were standing still and casting already. the moment you stopped dragging you char would snap back to the position where you were when you started dragging. this was fixed shortly before TOA hit.

the only REAL lag issue the game ever had was on the EU servers when the french telekom (open transit) had a critical hardware failure that took months to resolve. this was however in no way the games fault. if you ever had any lag issues outside of that i can promise you the problem was on your end.

regarding solo play:

even though the game was balanced for group play the solo aspect was still very much alive. whoever said bonedancers were OP solo just has no clue how to beat them. a good assassin should never lose to a BD. infact a good assassin shouldnt lose to anything 1v1. all it takes is a couple of weapons with different poisons on them to switch in. also there never at any point where oneshots from archers happening. DAoC had a hardcap on dmg that was dependent on your weapons DPS and your swing speed. that cap was around 650ish for most setups.(polearm was abit higher) on top of that you could get a crit that was max 50% of your base dmg. (vendo zerkers are the only exception to that) the most dmg an archer could do with crit shot was around 1k-1.1k and a caster has 1300-1400 HP buffed. if you ever got oneshot by an archer your template was just bad. the only things that could oneshot a caster were 2h vendo zerks with a lucky crit, 2h shadowblade´s PA+crit with str/con debuff poison, a polearm user that had been dex/qui debuffed before or a savage in their initial form with a quad + crits before they got nerfed.. all those oneshots rely on full crits tho.

regarding balance during classic era:

after almost 2 decades and playing literally every class in the game and a total of somewhere between 250 and 300 million RP farmed and winning more tournaments than i can count ranging from anywhere between 1v1 to 8v8 i can assure you there has never been a more balanced MMO in history overall. HOWEVER this only applies to the post Trials of Atlantis era. pre TOA balance was indeed abit off. as a rule of thumb it was:

midgard beats hibernia, hibernia beats albion, albion beats midgard.

this however applies to the mid realm rank range(around rr5-7)

<rr5 = mid beats all

>rr7 hib beats all

this however doesnt mean that albion was a weak realm. a good alb group will beat mid groups most of the time no matter the realm rank. the only reason why albs usually had a hard time vs hibs is that there was no cure nearsight in classic era. realm abilities like BoF and SoS gave them a very easy time vs midgard groups though.

bottomline is that balance during classic era had very little to do with the differences of the classes. it was mostly due to an imbalance regarding the realm abilities.

regarding balance after TOA and new frontiers:

TOA was like the jesus patch. it seperated the good players from the weak and made most of the bad players aka the zerglings quit cos they could no longer compete. it added new abilities such as cure nearsight, speed warp, bodyguard and others through master levels and artifacts. shortly after the frontiers revamp hit that also introduced a new realm ability system. huge fight changing abilities like BoF, SoS, PR, etc were now available to all realms and cooldowns were reduced greatly. this effectively meant that fights were no longer decided by cooldowns. at this point the game was super balanced. that was also when the game turned from mostly zerg fights into extremely competitive 8v8. groups stopped adding on each other and the "codex" evolved.

at that point mythic understood that their initial plan of huge zerg battles had been disregarded by the vast majority of the playerbase and they started to do changes exclusively based on the 8v8 scene which lead the game to its insane success that is still going on to this day. if it had stayed as the zergfest it was during classic no1 would even remember the game at this point.

so what does this mean for ESO:

since the lag in ESO is mostly caused by too many players in the same area the solution is rather simple. the game has to turn away from this zerg vs zerg mentality and move towards a more competitive orientated small scale mentality. the skill ceiling has to be raised drastically meaning stupid stuff like ball groups and unkillable megatank builds have to go straight into the bin. if that doesnt happen very soon ESO will never step out of the shadow of its big brother and vanish in insignificance sooner than you want to imagine. at the very latest when CU comes out.

Thogard · January 2018

lao wrote: »

so much false information in this thread.

let me set some things right.

regarding lag:

as some1 who has played DAoC since the early beta days and kept playing the game until 2017 i can assure you that the game never had any lag issues that are remotely comparable to what ESO is suffering from. even in relic raid fights the worst you would ever encounter were a few lag ghosts that would occur when some1 ran at you on speed 6 and then /faced you and started casting. it would then appear as if that person would still run at you while you could see the casting animation already. this only lasted for about 1-2 secs and then the ghost would disappear and the player would reappear at the position he first started casting. for an experienced player this was hardly an issue to deal with tho. another lag issue the game had that had abit more of an impact was lag ghosts of pets that made it possible to chase a group despite not beeing in clip range. you could just follow the trail of pet lag ghosts till you eventually caught up. i could explain why this was happening but i dont want to bore you with technical details about networking in the early 2000´s.

what alot of you ppl might have considered as lag was a trick that was known as "window dragging" it was an exploit. you could run the game in windowed mode and when you dragged the window while running you would appear as still running on other ppls screen even tho you were standing still and casting already. the moment you stopped dragging you char would snap back to the position where you were when you started dragging. this was fixed shortly before TOA hit.

the only REAL lag issue the game ever had was on the EU servers when the french telekom (open transit) had a critical hardware failure that took months to resolve. this was however in no way the games fault. if you ever had any lag issues outside of that i can promise you the problem was on your end.

regarding solo play:

even though the game was balanced for group play the solo aspect was still very much alive. whoever said bonedancers were OP solo just has no clue how to beat them. a good assassin should never lose to a BD. infact a good assassin shouldnt lose to anything 1v1. all it takes is a couple of weapons with different poisons on them to switch in. also there never at any point where oneshots from archers happening. DAoC had a hardcap on dmg that was dependent on your weapons DPS and your swing speed. that cap was around 650ish for most setups.(polearm was abit higher) on top of that you could get a crit that was max 50% of your base dmg. (vendo zerkers are the only exception to that) the most dmg an archer could do with crit shot was around 1k-1.1k and a caster has 1300-1400 HP buffed. if you ever got oneshot by an archer your template was just bad. the only things that could oneshot a caster were 2h vendo zerks with a lucky crit, 2h shadowblade´s PA+crit with str/con debuff poison, a polearm user that had been dex/qui debuffed before or a savage in their initial form with a quad + crits before they got nerfed.. all those oneshots rely on full crits tho.

regarding balance during classic era:

after almost 2 decades and playing literally every class in the game and a total of somewhere between 250 and 300 million RP farmed and winning more tournaments than i can count ranging from anywhere between 1v1 to 8v8 i can assure you there has never been a more balanced MMO in history overall. HOWEVER this only applies to the post Trials of Atlantis era. pre TOA balance was indeed abit off. as a rule of thumb it was:

midgard beats hibernia, hibernia beats albion, albion beats midgard.

this however applies to the mid realm rank range(around rr5-7)

<rr5 = mid beats all

>rr7 hib beats all

this however doesnt mean that albion was a weak realm. a good alb group will beat mid groups most of the time no matter the realm rank. the only reason why albs usually had a hard time vs hibs is that there was no cure nearsight in classic era. realm abilities like BoF and SoS gave them a very easy time vs midgard groups though.

bottomline is that balance during classic era had very little to do with the differences of the classes. it was mostly due to an imbalance regarding the realm abilities.

regarding balance after TOA and new frontiers:

TOA was like the jesus patch. it seperated the good players from the weak and made most of the bad players aka the zerglings quit cos they could no longer compete. it added new abilities such as cure nearsight, speed warp, bodyguard and others through master levels and artifacts. shortly after the frontiers revamp hit that also introduced a new realm ability system. huge fight changing abilities like BoF, SoS, PR, etc were now available to all realms and cooldowns were reduced greatly. this effectively meant that fights were no longer decided by cooldowns. at this point the game was super balanced. that was also when the game turned from mostly zerg fights into extremely competitive 8v8. groups stopped adding on each other and the "codex" evolved.

at that point mythic understood that their initial plan of huge zerg battles had been disregarded by the vast majority of the playerbase and they started to do changes exclusively based on the 8v8 scene which lead the game to its insane success that is still going on to this day. if it had stayed as the zergfest it was during classic no1 would even remember the game at this point.

so what does this mean for ESO:

since the lag in ESO is mostly caused by too many players in the same area the solution is rather simple. the game has to turn away from this zerg vs zerg mentality and move towards a more competitive orientated small scale mentality. the skill ceiling has to be raised drastically meaning stupid stuff like ball groups and unkillable megatank builds have to go straight into the bin. if that doesnt happen very soon ESO will never step out of the shadow of its big brother and vanish in insignificance sooner than you want to imagine. at the very latest when CU comes out.

That nostalgia! I had forgotten all about the lag ghosts of the pets! Oh man that hit me hard.

DAoC had amazing 8man fights but there was still a lot of 8 v Zerg fights when I was winding down my play. Spent most of my time in an alb extension 8man as sorc or peeling on arms, but our group also played a mean mid push group and I loved my savage.

I’ve always found it interesting that in ESO, caster groups tend to push (destro balls) whereas Stam groups tend to extend and line of sight. I haven’t seen a real caster extension group with a peeler yet, but I’d really like to run one one of these days.

IIRC they added a cure near sight to non-ToA as well but it took them a long time to do so.

I think the zergs got frustrated with the CC abuse by the 8mans though because their population did die out pretty quickly.

and oh boy do I remember getting cheesed out of kills by window dragging.

lao · January 2018

Thogard wrote: »

lao wrote: »

so much false information in this thread.

let me set some things right.

regarding lag:

as some1 who has played DAoC since the early beta days and kept playing the game until 2017 i can assure you that the game never had any lag issues that are remotely comparable to what ESO is suffering from. even in relic raid fights the worst you would ever encounter were a few lag ghosts that would occur when some1 ran at you on speed 6 and then /faced you and started casting. it would then appear as if that person would still run at you while you could see the casting animation already. this only lasted for about 1-2 secs and then the ghost would disappear and the player would reappear at the position he first started casting. for an experienced player this was hardly an issue to deal with tho. another lag issue the game had that had abit more of an impact was lag ghosts of pets that made it possible to chase a group despite not beeing in clip range. you could just follow the trail of pet lag ghosts till you eventually caught up. i could explain why this was happening but i dont want to bore you with technical details about networking in the early 2000´s.

what alot of you ppl might have considered as lag was a trick that was known as "window dragging" it was an exploit. you could run the game in windowed mode and when you dragged the window while running you would appear as still running on other ppls screen even tho you were standing still and casting already. the moment you stopped dragging you char would snap back to the position where you were when you started dragging. this was fixed shortly before TOA hit.

the only REAL lag issue the game ever had was on the EU servers when the french telekom (open transit) had a critical hardware failure that took months to resolve. this was however in no way the games fault. if you ever had any lag issues outside of that i can promise you the problem was on your end.

regarding solo play:

even though the game was balanced for group play the solo aspect was still very much alive. whoever said bonedancers were OP solo just has no clue how to beat them. a good assassin should never lose to a BD. infact a good assassin shouldnt lose to anything 1v1. all it takes is a couple of weapons with different poisons on them to switch in. also there never at any point where oneshots from archers happening. DAoC had a hardcap on dmg that was dependent on your weapons DPS and your swing speed. that cap was around 650ish for most setups.(polearm was abit higher) on top of that you could get a crit that was max 50% of your base dmg. (vendo zerkers are the only exception to that) the most dmg an archer could do with crit shot was around 1k-1.1k and a caster has 1300-1400 HP buffed. if you ever got oneshot by an archer your template was just bad. the only things that could oneshot a caster were 2h vendo zerks with a lucky crit, 2h shadowblade´s PA+crit with str/con debuff poison, a polearm user that had been dex/qui debuffed before or a savage in their initial form with a quad + crits before they got nerfed.. all those oneshots rely on full crits tho.

regarding balance during classic era:

after almost 2 decades and playing literally every class in the game and a total of somewhere between 250 and 300 million RP farmed and winning more tournaments than i can count ranging from anywhere between 1v1 to 8v8 i can assure you there has never been a more balanced MMO in history overall. HOWEVER this only applies to the post Trials of Atlantis era. pre TOA balance was indeed abit off. as a rule of thumb it was:

midgard beats hibernia, hibernia beats albion, albion beats midgard.

this however applies to the mid realm rank range(around rr5-7)

<rr5 = mid beats all

>rr7 hib beats all

this however doesnt mean that albion was a weak realm. a good alb group will beat mid groups most of the time no matter the realm rank. the only reason why albs usually had a hard time vs hibs is that there was no cure nearsight in classic era. realm abilities like BoF and SoS gave them a very easy time vs midgard groups though.

bottomline is that balance during classic era had very little to do with the differences of the classes. it was mostly due to an imbalance regarding the realm abilities.

regarding balance after TOA and new frontiers:

TOA was like the jesus patch. it seperated the good players from the weak and made most of the bad players aka the zerglings quit cos they could no longer compete. it added new abilities such as cure nearsight, speed warp, bodyguard and others through master levels and artifacts. shortly after the frontiers revamp hit that also introduced a new realm ability system. huge fight changing abilities like BoF, SoS, PR, etc were now available to all realms and cooldowns were reduced greatly. this effectively meant that fights were no longer decided by cooldowns. at this point the game was super balanced. that was also when the game turned from mostly zerg fights into extremely competitive 8v8. groups stopped adding on each other and the "codex" evolved.

at that point mythic understood that their initial plan of huge zerg battles had been disregarded by the vast majority of the playerbase and they started to do changes exclusively based on the 8v8 scene which lead the game to its insane success that is still going on to this day. if it had stayed as the zergfest it was during classic no1 would even remember the game at this point.

so what does this mean for ESO:

since the lag in ESO is mostly caused by too many players in the same area the solution is rather simple. the game has to turn away from this zerg vs zerg mentality and move towards a more competitive orientated small scale mentality. the skill ceiling has to be raised drastically meaning stupid stuff like ball groups and unkillable megatank builds have to go straight into the bin. if that doesnt happen very soon ESO will never step out of the shadow of its big brother and vanish in insignificance sooner than you want to imagine. at the very latest when CU comes out.

That nostalgia! I had forgotten all about the lag ghosts of the pets! Oh man that hit me hard.

DAoC had amazing 8man fights but there was still a lot of 8 v Zerg fights when I was winding down my play. Spent most of my time in an alb extension 8man as sorc or peeling on arms, but our group also played a mean mid push group and I loved my savage.

I’ve always found it interesting that in ESO, caster groups tend to push (destro balls) whereas Stam groups tend to extend and line of sight. I haven’t seen a real caster extension group with a peeler yet, but I’d really like to run one one of these days.

IIRC they added a cure near sight to non-ToA as well but it took them a long time to do so.

I think the zergs got frustrated with the CC abuse by the 8mans though because their population did die out pretty quickly.

and oh boy do I remember getting cheesed out of kills by window dragging.

they did add a cure nearsight at 40 mending/rejuv/regrowth at some point but the problem was that 40 is absurdly high and if you specced that the blue spreadheal vanished and you were forced to use the yellow one which cost way too much mana. later on they changed that but then there was still the problem that the cure nearsight from healing specs had 4 secs delve casttime so it wasnt rly viable for those clumsy 280-320 dex healing classes to use.

also yea there was some nice 8vZerg during classic times but there wasnt many groups that ran 8man to begin with during that era. on excalibur it was maybe a total of 5-6 groups that could pull it off. i still remember running up to AMG and farm the 100 man pleb zerg with our svg train back then. good memories xd.

the thing is i wouldnt call it CC abuse [snip]. demezz has been in the game like forever and i always went loco on my boys when i was mezzed for more than 5 secs. root is something you can avoid by positioning and ofc there is always purge. alot of ppl just simply didnt understand that you NEVER purge a mezz and you only purge a slam when you really have to. purge was exclusively reserved for single target roots or nearsights and in very rare cases debuffs basically.

the reason for this weird behaviour of caster groups in ESO that just feels wrong on every level is the fact that this game lacks a proper interupt system. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

NewBlacksmurf · January 2018

@lao

[Snip].

Maybe look at even recent discussions - http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?76784-Server-latency-and-ping-issues&s=daab1db835e9224cec1a58d76f837ef2

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Connectivity_Issue

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/mythic-to-fix-server-lag.250222424/

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/server-lag-7-25-10.250692756/

This:
Packets Monitor

Sometimes you wonder why things seem to slow down in the game. This can happen for a variety of reasons, but if you want to have a little more information, type Shift-P to bring up a packet monitor that will show you if your connection is experiencing problems. A green circle means a good connection. A yellow triangle means it's a bit sketchy. A red square means your connection is slowing down.

From here: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/using-and-understanding-interface

The point is no one sits online and makes up stuff about lag for a game they’re paying monthly to play in the thousands across multiple continents. Glad you didn’t have the experiences but that doesn’t means a whole bunch of others were not

[Edited to remove bait]

lao · January 2018

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

@lao

[Snip].

Maybe look at even recent discussions - http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?76784-Server-latency-and-ping-issues&s=daab1db835e9224cec1a58d76f837ef2

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Connectivity_Issue

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/mythic-to-fix-server-lag.250222424/

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/server-lag-7-25-10.250692756/

This:
Packets Monitor

Sometimes you wonder why things seem to slow down in the game. This can happen for a variety of reasons, but if you want to have a little more information, type Shift-P to bring up a packet monitor that will show you if your connection is experiencing problems. A green circle means a good connection. A yellow triangle means it's a bit sketchy. A red square means your connection is slowing down.

From here: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/using-and-understanding-interface

The point is no one sits online and makes up stuff about lag for a game they’re paying monthly to play in the thousands across multiple continents. Glad you didn’t have the experiences but that doesn’t means a whole bunch of others were not

[Snip]. Possible you had lag issues there but in europe outside of the open transit incident lag was never an issue. so i remain correct when i say that it was never the games fault as the netcode of DAoC is very very good even for todays standards.

and yes lag in ESO only happens when the campaign is full, hence why shor and sotha sil are always lag free and vivec always messed up during primetime.

no idea what you´re even trying to say with "local performance" and "operator error".

however i never said ppl are making stuff up. im saying its on their end or possibly even on mythics end but then its a hardware issue due to awful backbones throughout the entire USA. it has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself as that has always been perfectly fine. i have played with alot of americans over the years tho so i know that even the connection from east to west coast is completely awful let alone to another continent.

[Edited for quote]
[Edited to remove bait]

NewBlacksmurf · January 2018

lao wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

@lao

[Snip]

Maybe look at even recent discussions - http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?76784-Server-latency-and-ping-issues&s=daab1db835e9224cec1a58d76f837ef2

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Connectivity_Issue

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/mythic-to-fix-server-lag.250222424/

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/server-lag-7-25-10.250692756/

This:
Packets Monitor

Sometimes you wonder why things seem to slow down in the game. This can happen for a variety of reasons, but if you want to have a little more information, type Shift-P to bring up a packet monitor that will show you if your connection is experiencing problems. A green circle means a good connection. A yellow triangle means it's a bit sketchy. A red square means your connection is slowing down.

From here: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/using-and-understanding-interface

The point is no one sits online and makes up stuff about lag for a game they’re paying monthly to play in the thousands across multiple continents. Glad you didn’t have the experiences but that doesn’t means a whole bunch of others were not

[Snip]. Possible you had lag issues there but in europe outside of the open transit incident lag was never an issue. so i remain correct when i say that it was never the games fault as the netcode of DAoC is very very good even for todays standards.

and yes lag in ESO only happens when the campaign is full, hence why shor and sotha sil are always lag free and vivec always messed up during primetime.

no idea what you´re even trying to say with "local performance" and "operator error".

however i never said ppl are making stuff up. im saying its on their end or possibly even on mythics end but then its a hardware issue due to awful backbones throughout the entire USA. it has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself as that has always been perfectly fine. i have played with alot of americans over the years tho so i know that even the connection from east to west coast is completely awful let alone to another continent.

@lao

Just want to put this out there.....ESO is an game where the developers sit in the USA. DAoC released in the USA and Europe shortly after but they also sat in the USA. Almost the same state....almost

[Snip]. Literally read my OP and by the way I guess ZOS added the EU not cause players outside on the USA had connection issues but because EU has a better network but that server goes down and needs more maintenance than the NA server.

I don’t know where the EU stuff sits but just a point of reference to consider.......folks outside of the USA seem to report more issues for ESO than US folks.

01c4c2264937bc144a4ff36dba60252ca97c30b72d58094ecd69b2c713e6c94f.jpg

01c4c2264937bc144a4ff36dba60252ca97c30b72d58094ecd69b2c713e6c94f.jpg

[Edited for quotes]
[Edited to remove bait]

lao · January 2018

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

lao wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

@lao

[Snip].

Maybe look at even recent discussions - http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?76784-Server-latency-and-ping-issues&s=daab1db835e9224cec1a58d76f837ef2

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Connectivity_Issue

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/mythic-to-fix-server-lag.250222424/

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/server-lag-7-25-10.250692756/

This:
Packets Monitor

Sometimes you wonder why things seem to slow down in the game. This can happen for a variety of reasons, but if you want to have a little more information, type Shift-P to bring up a packet monitor that will show you if your connection is experiencing problems. A green circle means a good connection. A yellow triangle means it's a bit sketchy. A red square means your connection is slowing down.

From here: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/using-and-understanding-interface

The point is no one sits online and makes up stuff about lag for a game they’re paying monthly to play in the thousands across multiple continents. Glad you didn’t have the experiences but that doesn’t means a whole bunch of others were not

[Snip]. Possible you had lag issues there but in europe outside of the open transit incident lag was never an issue. so i remain correct when i say that it was never the games fault as the netcode of DAoC is very very good even for todays standards.

and yes lag in ESO only happens when the campaign is full, hence why shor and sotha sil are always lag free and vivec always messed up during primetime.

no idea what you´re even trying to say with "local performance" and "operator error".

however i never said ppl are making stuff up. im saying its on their end or possibly even on mythics end but then its a hardware issue due to awful backbones throughout the entire USA. it has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself as that has always been perfectly fine. i have played with alot of americans over the years tho so i know that even the connection from east to west coast is completely awful let alone to another continent.

@lao

Just want to put this out there.....ESO is an game where the developers sit in the USA. DAoC released in the USA and Europe shortly after but they also sat in the USA. Almost the same state....almost

[Snip]. Literally read my OP

[Snip].

EU servers for DAoC were located in Paris. in what universe does it even remotely matter where it was developed. it seems you dont rly have the slightest clue about networking.

oh and just an fyi. DAoC was actually originally developed by 6 norwegians. due to lack of money and ressources Mythic got to buy the project cheap in an early stage of development.

[Edited for quotes]
[Edited to remove bait]

NewBlacksmurf · January 2018

lao wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

lao wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

@lao

[Snip].

Maybe look at even recent discussions - http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?76784-Server-latency-and-ping-issues&s=daab1db835e9224cec1a58d76f837ef2

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Connectivity_Issue

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/mythic-to-fix-server-lag.250222424/

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/server-lag-7-25-10.250692756/

This:
Packets Monitor

Sometimes you wonder why things seem to slow down in the game. This can happen for a variety of reasons, but if you want to have a little more information, type Shift-P to bring up a packet monitor that will show you if your connection is experiencing problems. A green circle means a good connection. A yellow triangle means it's a bit sketchy. A red square means your connection is slowing down.

From here: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/using-and-understanding-interface

The point is no one sits online and makes up stuff about lag for a game they’re paying monthly to play in the thousands across multiple continents. Glad you didn’t have the experiences but that doesn’t means a whole bunch of others were not

[Snip]. Possible you had lag issues there but in europe outside of the open transit incident lag was never an issue. so i remain correct when i say that it was never the games fault as the netcode of DAoC is very very good even for todays standards.

and yes lag in ESO only happens when the campaign is full, hence why shor and sotha sil are always lag free and vivec always messed up during primetime.

no idea what you´re even trying to say with "local performance" and "operator error".

however i never said ppl are making stuff up. im saying its on their end or possibly even on mythics end but then its a hardware issue due to awful backbones throughout the entire USA. it has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself as that has always been perfectly fine. i have played with alot of americans over the years tho so i know that even the connection from east to west coast is completely awful let alone to another continent.

@lao

Just want to put this out there.....ESO is an game where the developers sit in the USA. DAoC released in the USA and Europe shortly after but they also sat in the USA. Almost the same state....almost

[Snip]. Literally read my OP

[Snip].

EU servers for DAoC were located in Paris. in what universe does it even remotely matter where it was developed. it seems you dont rly have the slightest clue about networking.

oh and just an fyi. DAoC was actually originally developed by 6 norwegians. due to lack of money and ressources Mythic got to buy the project cheap in an early stage of development.

[Snip].

Points of major importance
1. DAoC first launched in the USA
2. The developer was based in the USA
3. ESO initially had just a NA server that either during closed beta or later opened a EU server
4. ZOS is based in the USA

Because of the above, there are literally more customer US based than EU given the context of my OP.

The reality is this, your experiences may be fine but you’re in such a minority to the discussion that the basis of your earlier comment discredits the validity of what you’re suggesting.
I’m not saying you and a few others don’t have great lag free experiences but no one cares about the minority few. There are millions having issues and that’s what we are discussing.

There are and were real issues specific to lag in both games within the context of my OP. As such there are direct comparisons between the two games and it supports logic that as is this will not be resolved for those experiencing the issues based on very similar decisions, and being under direction of Matt F.

Honestly the folks who couldn’t launch originally ....is of absolutely no relevance. It’s like bringing up Camelot Unchained in this discussion due to the split of some Mythic devs.
Who cares, it has not impact to what we are talking about at all.

[Snip].

[Edited for quotes]
[Edited to remove bait]

Durham · January 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DAoC had much simpler coding than ESO. The amount of data a server had to process was only a fraction of what ESO’s servers have to process per client. ESO’s biggest problem is how inefficient it is with data transfer from server to client and vice versa.

What I wonder is, would dx12 or vulkan api help this game in any way, or is the lag totally server sided?

Eh latency and FPS issues are completely separate. People used to get corrected and mocked for conflating the two. Now it seems everyone has given up.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

sittinhere wrote: »

My main serve was perc/alb nad ran fine unless massive relic raids going on. But 8v8 and anything else was great. Merlin/hib, Guin/Mid, Lancelot/Mid, all those ran fine. Only time people complained of any lag was during relic raids because they got so big, 400v400v400 would do that

what is 8v8?
Is that something ppl starting doing years later in the frontier?

Yes as less and less casuals remained in the game, there were far more 8man groups that would either farm zergs or fight each other. A pretty strict honor code developed between all the good groups, the main rule being that you can’t attack (“AJ” lol) a group that’s already fighting a Zerg or another group.

Good times.

Durham weren’t you a paladin?

Yes sir I was a paladin

lao · January 2018

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

lao wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

lao wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

@lao

[Snip].

Maybe look at even recent discussions - http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?76784-Server-latency-and-ping-issues&s=daab1db835e9224cec1a58d76f837ef2

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Connectivity_Issue

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/mythic-to-fix-server-lag.250222424/

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/server-lag-7-25-10.250692756/

This:
Packets Monitor

Sometimes you wonder why things seem to slow down in the game. This can happen for a variety of reasons, but if you want to have a little more information, type Shift-P to bring up a packet monitor that will show you if your connection is experiencing problems. A green circle means a good connection. A yellow triangle means it's a bit sketchy. A red square means your connection is slowing down.

From here: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/using-and-understanding-interface

The point is no one sits online and makes up stuff about lag for a game they’re paying monthly to play in the thousands across multiple continents. Glad you didn’t have the experiences but that doesn’t means a whole bunch of others were not

[Snip]. Possible you had lag issues there but in europe outside of the open transit incident lag was never an issue. so i remain correct when i say that it was never the games fault as the netcode of DAoC is very very good even for todays standards.

and yes lag in ESO only happens when the campaign is full, hence why shor and sotha sil are always lag free and vivec always messed up during primetime.

no idea what you´re even trying to say with "local performance" and "operator error".

however i never said ppl are making stuff up. im saying its on their end or possibly even on mythics end but then its a hardware issue due to awful backbones throughout the entire USA. it has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself as that has always been perfectly fine. i have played with alot of americans over the years tho so i know that even the connection from east to west coast is completely awful let alone to another continent.

@lao

Just want to put this out there.....ESO is an game where the developers sit in the USA. DAoC released in the USA and Europe shortly after but they also sat in the USA. Almost the same state....almost

[Snip]

[Snip]

EU servers for DAoC were located in Paris. in what universe does it even remotely matter where it was developed. it seems you dont rly have the slightest clue about networking.

oh and just an fyi. DAoC was actually originally developed by 6 norwegians. due to lack of money and ressources Mythic got to buy the project cheap in an early stage of development.

[Snip]

Points of major importance
1. DAoC first launched in the USA
2. The developer was based in the USA
3. ESO initially had just a NA server that either during closed beta or later opened a EU server
4. ZOS is based in the USA

Because of the above, there are literally more customer US based than EU given the context of my OP.

The reality is this, your experiences may be fine but you’re in such a minority to the discussion that the basis of your earlier comment discredits the validity of what you’re suggesting.
I’m not saying you and a few others don’t have great lag free experiences but no one cares about the minority few. There are millions having issues and that’s what we are discussing.

There are and were real issues specific to lag in both games within the context of my OP. As such there are direct comparisons between the two games and it supports logic that as is this will not be resolved for those experiencing the issues based on very similar decisions, and being under direction of Matt F.

Honestly the folks who couldn’t launch originally ....is of absolutely no relevance. It’s like bringing up Camelot Unchained in this discussion due to the split of some Mythic devs.
Who cares, it has not impact to what we are talking about at all.

[Snip]

[Snip]

1) where either of the games were developed has zero (0) relevance to the topic.
2) i never said ESO doesnt suffer from bad netcode. neither did i say that your OP is wrong. i said that blaming it on the game or more precisely on the design of the PvP zone which you compared to the design of DAoC´s PvP is wrong. it has nothing to do with that. not in DAoC and not in ESO. in ESO´s case there is solid proof for that as both sotha sil and shor dont suffer any lag issues. neither does the lowbie campaign. its not the zone design its the amount of players that causes it. even vivec is fine for the most part until we reach the point where all 3 factions are pop locked.
3) DAoC netcode is fine and always was fine. any issues you may have experienced are down to bad network architecture in the USA and/or Mythic going cheap on the server hardware.
4) DAoC wasnt even run by Mythic in europe. it was run by GOA and the servers where located in Paris (that is NOT in the USA fyi)
5) absolutely everything i said regarding balance is dead on correct. believe me i know more about DAoC than anyone else here ... by a huge margin as ive palyed it for almost 2 decades on the highest competitive level. infact there isnt a single server me and my boys played were we werent the by far most dominant group. therefor when i talk about balance you´re best to simply sit down, listen and learn. if you need video proof i can provide plenty of that. 8v8, 8vZerg, solo, whatever you want to see. i have read the whole thread and pretty much every single comment on DAoC balance was a half truth or plain incorrect which is why i put things right.

The End.

[Edited for quotes]
[Edited to remove bait]

WeylandLabs · January 2018

Thats it ( Stomps Foot ) I'm moving to South Korea just to play ESO will that help lmfao.

I love this thread !

NewBlacksmurf · January 2018

lao wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

lao wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

lao wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

@lao

[Snip]

Maybe look at even recent discussions - http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?76784-Server-latency-and-ping-issues&s=daab1db835e9224cec1a58d76f837ef2

http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Connectivity_Issue

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/mythic-to-fix-server-lag.250222424/

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/server-lag-7-25-10.250692756/

This:
Packets Monitor

Sometimes you wonder why things seem to slow down in the game. This can happen for a variety of reasons, but if you want to have a little more information, type Shift-P to bring up a packet monitor that will show you if your connection is experiencing problems. A green circle means a good connection. A yellow triangle means it's a bit sketchy. A red square means your connection is slowing down.

From here: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/using-and-understanding-interface

The point is no one sits online and makes up stuff about lag for a game they’re paying monthly to play in the thousands across multiple continents. Glad you didn’t have the experiences but that doesn’t means a whole bunch of others were not

[Snip]. Possible you had lag issues there but in europe outside of the open transit incident lag was never an issue. so i remain correct when i say that it was never the games fault as the netcode of DAoC is very very good even for todays standards.

and yes lag in ESO only happens when the campaign is full, hence why shor and sotha sil are always lag free and vivec always messed up during primetime.

no idea what you´re even trying to say with "local performance" and "operator error".

however i never said ppl are making stuff up. im saying its on their end or possibly even on mythics end but then its a hardware issue due to awful backbones throughout the entire USA. it has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself as that has always been perfectly fine. i have played with alot of americans over the years tho so i know that even the connection from east to west coast is completely awful let alone to another continent.

@lao

Just want to put this out there.....ESO is an game where the developers sit in the USA. DAoC released in the USA and Europe shortly after but they also sat in the USA. Almost the same state....almost

[Snip]

[Snip]

EU servers for DAoC were located in Paris. in what universe does it even remotely matter where it was developed. it seems you dont rly have the slightest clue about networking.

oh and just an fyi. DAoC was actually originally developed by 6 norwegians. due to lack of money and ressources Mythic got to buy the project cheap in an early stage of development.

[Snip].

Points of major importance
1. DAoC first launched in the USA
2. The developer was based in the USA
3. ESO initially had just a NA server that either during closed beta or later opened a EU server
4. ZOS is based in the USA

Because of the above, there are literally more customer US based than EU given the context of my OP.

The reality is this, your experiences may be fine but you’re in such a minority to the discussion that the basis of your earlier comment discredits the validity of what you’re suggesting.
I’m not saying you and a few others don’t have great lag free experiences but no one cares about the minority few. There are millions having issues and that’s what we are discussing.

There are and were real issues specific to lag in both games within the context of my OP. As such there are direct comparisons between the two games and it supports logic that as is this will not be resolved for those experiencing the issues based on very similar decisions, and being under direction of Matt F.

Honestly the folks who couldn’t launch originally ....is of absolutely no relevance. It’s like bringing up Camelot Unchained in this discussion due to the split of some Mythic devs.
Who cares, it has not impact to what we are talking about at all.

[Snip].

[Snip]

1) where either of the games were developed has zero (0) relevance to the topic.
2) i never said ESO doesnt suffer from bad netcode. neither did i say that your OP is wrong. i said that blaming it on the game or more precisely on the design of the PvP zone which you compared to the design of DAoC´s PvP is wrong. it has nothing to do with that. not in DAoC and not in ESO. in ESO´s case there is solid proof for that as both sotha sil and shor dont suffer any lag issues. neither does the lowbie campaign. its not the zone design its the amount of players that causes it. even vivec is fine for the most part until we reach the point where all 3 factions are pop locked.
3) DAoC netcode is fine and always was fine. any issues you may have experienced are down to bad network architecture in the USA and/or Mythic going cheap on the server hardware.
4) DAoC wasnt even run by Mythic in europe. it was run by GOA and the servers where located in Paris (that is NOT in the USA fyi)
5) absolutely everything i said regarding balance is dead on correct. believe me i know more about DAoC than anyone else here ... by a huge margin as ive palyed it for almost 2 decades on the highest competitive level. infact there isnt a single server me and my boys played were we werent the by far most dominant group. therefor when i talk about balance you´re best to simply sit down, listen and learn. if you need video proof i can provide plenty of that. 8v8, 8vZerg, solo, whatever you want to see. i have read the whole thread and pretty much every single comment on DAoC balance was a half truth or plain incorrect which is why i put things right.

The End.

1. It actually does matter.

See reference: When DAOC first launched in October 2001, Mythic sold 51,000 copies of the game within the first 4 days,[8] outperforming their initial expectation of 30,000.[34] In the United States, Dark Age of Camelot sold 300,000 copies and earned $10.4 million by August 2006, after its release in October 2001. It was the country's 63rd best-selling computer game between January 2000 and August 2006. Combined sales of all Dark Age of Camelot games released between January 2000 and August 2006 had reached 780,000 units in the United States by the latter date.[35]

2. Reread your own first comment above. You wrote it doesn’t suffer from lag like ESO and was only in a few situations but it was something else.

3. You may want to research it before claiming your opinions.

During the game's prime, Mythic operated 120 dual-processor Pentium servers running Linux. Out of those, groups of six servers were devoted to running one world, or as the player saw it, one server. The servers were designed to handle 20,000 players simultaneously logged in at any given time, however, Mythic limited them to about 4,000 each in order to keep the world from feeling too cluttered. Mythic's cofounder Rob Denton stated, "If you have too many people, the worlds get too crowded. The last thing you want is to be bumping into thousands of people."[10] Much of the game's code was also stored on the servers, with the user client more focused on graphics and texture loading based on a data stream limited to 10 kbit/s per player.[10]

4. Again why are you bringing up non USA stuff. See #1 and realize most of us are in the USA....context of this discussion as mentioned above.
5. [Snip]

[Edited for quotes]
[Edited for baiting]

Thogard · January 2018

lao wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DAoC had much simpler coding than ESO. The amount of data a server had to process was only a fraction of what ESO’s servers have to process per client. ESO’s biggest problem is how inefficient it is with data transfer from server to client and vice versa.

What I wonder is, would dx12 or vulkan api help this game in any way, or is the lag totally server sided?

Eh latency and FPS issues are completely separate. People used to get corrected and mocked for conflating the two. Now it seems everyone has given up.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

sittinhere wrote: »

My main serve was perc/alb nad ran fine unless massive relic raids going on. But 8v8 and anything else was great. Merlin/hib, Guin/Mid, Lancelot/Mid, all those ran fine. Only time people complained of any lag was during relic raids because they got so big, 400v400v400 would do that

what is 8v8?
Is that something ppl starting doing years later in the frontier?

Yes as less and less casuals remained in the game, there were far more 8man groups that would either farm zergs or fight each other. A pretty strict honor code developed between all the good groups, the main rule being that you can’t attack (“AJ” lol) a group that’s already fighting a Zerg or another group.

Good times.

Durham weren’t you a paladin?

Yes sir I was a paladin

Nice! I knew it!

I think I played on Twain with you a few times. I was in BotF and BANDA

[Snip]

Did you play on PvP (Andred or mordred) or on classic (Ywain / Lamorak / the other one) at all? Curious what your char names were and which guilds you played with.

[Edited for quotes]

lao · January 2018

[Snip]

Did you play on PvP (Andred or mordred) or on classic (Ywain / Lamorak / the other one) at all? Curious what your char names were and which guilds you played with.

i played on EU. i did play PvP server abit but it was never really big on EU and i rolled an eld so when the rest of my guild went back to the RvR servers i just went back too. years later a few ppl of my crew started playing on NA and formed Mainstream.
during the early years i was in Jack Herer but also pugged alot with Nolby Pride since we were in a 2 guild alliance for a year or so. later on when the EU servers werent big anymore and most competitive groups went to freeshards ive made groups with ppl from like all major excal/prydwen groups. Nolby, Groove, Eclipse, Maelstrom, Dem Hibbies, Vengeance, Public Enemies, Bad Omen, Llaw Arian, Apocalypse Dudes etc. also met some ppl from german and french guilds there such as No Skill, Fury, Clafoutee, Wolfpack etc. Also played with quite a few americans over the years but i dont know NA guilds very well. we had an irc channel to stay in touch with each other for years. last ten years or so we had a core of like ~10-12 players that originally came from like everywhere. most more or less recent freeshard guilds we made were Jaws Whacka Whacka, Dont give a Fox, IKEA, Fatality and Los Boyos. there are more but i suck at remembering names. we also made a guild called HugeBicepsHighIQMassiveDong on some freeshard but the admins didnt like that name

[Edited for quotes]

ZOS_KatP · January 2018

Hi all,

We've gone through and removed/edited some comments because they were combative and violated our policy on baiting. It's important to note that disagreeing with other's opinions does not mean baiting and insulting is the appropriate way to continue the discussion. Please be sure to keep your posts on-topic, constructive and civil.

Thanks so much.

jhharvest · January 2018

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Thats it ( Stomps Foot ) I'm moving to South Korea just to play ESO will that help lmfao.

I love this thread !

No.

I lived three years in South Korea and had like 300 ping.