Why PvP will never be fixed as is 2014-2018 (DAoC all over again)

NewBlacksmurf

Vermintide wrote: »

I hate to say it but I think Guild Wars pulled off roughly the same concept a lot better than this game. If they could adapt something similar to what GW2 had but without that no-fun-allowed "Here is your PVP gear set, deal with it" system, it'd be a vast improvement.

Also I'd support alliance choice being account wide. I'd still think people should be allowed to change so they can join the side their friends play, for example, but there needs to be a disincentive- Maybe it would cost 500,000 AP to do so, or you would forfeit all rewards from the campaign until the next one starts.

As for performance, who on earth knows. What I think would help is changing the combat system to something more accommodating of imprecise timing; rather than trying to overcome the lag. For instance, all the animation cancelling BS, all the skills that require precision to weave into a combo, yet are basically impossible under normal conditions in Cyro... That stuff all needs to go, and be replaced with a skill mechanic that doesn't simply feel like the remnant of a bug exploit.

@Vermintide

What if there was no charge but only a one time change per campaign cycle however still account wide?

I understand the cost to deter but for folks who do a lot of PvP, wouldn’t they just out earn the cost?

I do agree people should be able to join with friends but the guild part needs to shut off chat somehow......for other factions.

jhharvest

Vaoh wrote: »

Yeah I've seen some videos of ESO's early days. This vid was in beta but the amount of players and lack of lag is shocking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-BhwhwX38o

There is a flip side to this coin. Notice the guy can cast two javelins and is out of magicka? And it takes a full minute to get it back. No one spamming skills, hardly any aoe. Everyone just light and heavy attacking.

These days people cry when costs are slightly increased so you have to slot a sustain set to have infinite resource pools... I've tried to suggest in the past that maybe we shouldn't have yoyo zero to hundred healing and spammable aoe but I got the message pretty clear that the vast majority of players think I'm an idiot for even saying something like that.

glavius

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Could also say cyrodiil is a copy of wvw from gw2.... Just arenanet got it right with class balance/structure, tournament setup so wvw(pvp) never got stale and server/infrastructure quality.
Been an oceanic player..... Notice a MASSIVE difference between eso and gw2 (gw2 the zergs are larger yet there is less large).

Gw2 wvw was terrible. Couldn't walk 2 meters without bumping into a npc guard. Huge nameplates that could be seen through terrain that made small scale near impossible. Very small maps, half of which was water with terrible underwater mechanics. They did get the server performance right though (after the first 6 months of invisible zergs)

Vermintide

jhharvest wrote: »

There is a flip side to this coin. Notice the guy can cast two javelins and is out of magicka? And it takes a full minute to get it back. No one spamming skills, hardly any aoe. Everyone just light and heavy attacking.

These days people cry when costs are slightly increased so you have to slot a sustain set to have infinite resource pools... I've tried to suggest in the past that maybe we shouldn't have yoyo zero to hundred healing and spammable aoe but I got the message pretty clear that the vast majority of players think I'm an idiot for even saying something like that.

It's always the same with MMOs. Nerds want this weird fighting game/guitar hero hybrid where it's basically a competition of who can push the right buttons in the right order for the longest. Even if the devs intend something totally different, the MMO playerbase will find a way to force it into that shape.

Real people want a game where if you put a sword through someone's head, it damn well kills them. Mage with everything geared into attack? Better believe he can turn you to a pile of ash in one glance. The balance should come from real tactics, positioning, strategy; not by who has the better order of pressing buttons.

But that's not how it is. The same holy trinity you use in PVE with healing and sustain on par with damage has to work in PVP, and that's where we end up, even despite an arbitrary debuff that cuts your damage and healing in half. Just imagine where we'd be without that.

Just look at duelling. 75% of fights between equally matched players just go on forever. Can you imagine watching a game of Street Fighter where both players just constantly keep refilling their health?

/rant

WeylandLabs

This thread is literally the most exciting intelligent thing I have ever came across finally. I'm on edge right now... watching closely. I can't wait for the facts to be shown, I'm with @NewBlacksmurf on this and 100% agree.

NewBlacksmurf

Vermintide wrote: »

jhharvest wrote: »

There is a flip side to this coin. Notice the guy can cast two javelins and is out of magicka? And it takes a full minute to get it back. No one spamming skills, hardly any aoe. Everyone just light and heavy attacking.

These days people cry when costs are slightly increased so you have to slot a sustain set to have infinite resource pools... I've tried to suggest in the past that maybe we shouldn't have yoyo zero to hundred healing and spammable aoe but I got the message pretty clear that the vast majority of players think I'm an idiot for even saying something like that.

It's always the same with MMOs. Nerds want this weird fighting game/guitar hero hybrid where it's basically a competition of who can push the right buttons in the right order for the longest. Even if the devs intend something totally different, the MMO playerbase will find a way to force it into that shape.

Real people want a game where if you put a sword through someone's head, it damn well kills them. Mage with everything geared into attack? Better believe he can turn you to a pile of ash in one glance. The balance should come from real tactics, positioning, strategy; not by who has the better order of pressing buttons.

But that's not how it is. The same holy trinity you use in PVE with healing and sustain on par with damage has to work in PVP, and that's where we end up, even despite an arbitrary debuff that cuts your damage and healing in half. Just imagine where we'd be without that.

Just look at duelling. 75% of fights between equally matched players just go on forever. Can you imagine watching a game of Street Fighter where both players just constantly keep refilling their health?

/rant

Long-ago there was a game was made that way...Bushido Blade (ps1). I would like that type of experience as well for fights to be around 5-10 seconds....less of a build and more of TES

I like the mmo server but the rest shouldn’t have been changed to align with older mmo games


Guitar hero reference is hilarious but very accurate.

sittinhere

I’ve been a daoc player since beta and only left couple years ago. Never had any lag issues to be honest. However daoc has always been unbalanced. At the start only one realm had pbaoe which dominated the keep doors. LA made berserkers like gods. List goes on and on.

NewBlacksmurf

sittinhere wrote: »

I’ve been a daoc player since beta and only left couple years ago. Never had any lag issues to be honest. However daoc has always been unbalanced. At the start only one realm had pbaoe which dominated the keep doors. LA made berserkers like gods. List goes on and on.

@sittinhere
Where you on a 56k modem, or some from of DSL/Cable modem in beta and the first two years?

My experiences are:
56k modem for 1 month at release
T1 line month 2 - year 2

Thogard

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

sittinhere wrote: »

I’ve been a daoc player since beta and only left couple years ago. Never had any lag issues to be honest. However daoc has always been unbalanced. At the start only one realm had pbaoe which dominated the keep doors. LA made berserkers like gods. List goes on and on.

@sittinhere
Where you on a 56k modem, or some from of DSL/Cable modem in beta and the first two years?

My experiences are:
56k modem for 1 month at release
T1 line month 2 - year 2

I was on cable at launch.

sittinhere

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

sittinhere wrote: »

I’ve been a daoc player since beta and only left couple years ago. Never had any lag issues to be honest. However daoc has always been unbalanced. At the start only one realm had pbaoe which dominated the keep doors. LA made berserkers like gods. List goes on and on.

@sittinhere
Where you on a 56k modem, or some from of DSL/Cable modem in beta and the first two years?

My experiences are:
56k modem for 1 month at release
T1 line month 2 - year 2

Was on cable for beta and remainder of my daoc life

NewBlacksmurf

sittinhere wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

sittinhere wrote: »

I’ve been a daoc player since beta and only left couple years ago. Never had any lag issues to be honest. However daoc has always been unbalanced. At the start only one realm had pbaoe which dominated the keep doors. LA made berserkers like gods. List goes on and on.

@sittinhere
Where you on a 56k modem, or some from of DSL/Cable modem in beta and the first two years?

My experiences are:
56k modem for 1 month at release
T1 line month 2 - year 2

Was on cable for beta and remainder of my daoc life

Perhaps the network admin at my college had something wrong then but my brother who played at home on a 56k modem initially and then a DSL line had lag so being the two of us and others in our guild it seemed pretty consistent that everyone on our server would have the following:

-Randomly get dropped from the game
-When moving in groups we would experience lag prior to mounts, just using a minstrel...then one or two would fall behind even with using /stick and we’d have to start/stop
-NPCs when getting pulled in areas level 10-45 would fall into the ground and disappear or randomly appear on top of the group in between pulls
-Get major lag spike trying to port at keeps at the Frontier wall keeps


This was from early on until after the release of Trials of Atlantis so maybe you had a good server choice. Most others....over 75% of the game population experienced the above every time they played.

I’ve noticed the exact same frequency of issues here on PC and now on Xbox one where i play.

Xsorus

I had 56k at the start of DAOC, and the only time I truly got actual server lag was during a Relic Raid..esp when trying to take an Alb relic...this was on Midgard Merlin at the time....and the reason the Alb Relic was bad was because their entire realm would stack in their Relic keep..

NewBlacksmurf

Xsorus wrote: »

I had 56k at the start of DAOC, and the only time I truly got actual server lag was during a Relic Raid..esp when trying to take an Alb relic...this was on Midgard Merlin at the time....and the reason the Alb Relic was bad was because their entire realm would stack in their Relic keep..

Well I was with Albion so perhaps it was that side....not just RvR

Midgard was a part time experience but my main server was full RP server on Albion side

However the large population reports otherwise....not discounting your experiences but glad you had smooth experiences.

Thogard

DAoC had much simpler coding than ESO. The amount of data a server had to process was only a fraction of what ESO’s servers have to process per client. ESO’s biggest problem is how inefficient it is with data transfer from server to client and vice versa.

Kode

Good grief, someone here really values his own expert opinion! I'm glad the IT deity graces us with his presence.

Durham

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DAoC had minimal latency.

You’d get some FPS drops if you were zerging, but lag was rarely an issue.

It’s engine was streamlined for mass data transfer... basically designed to be an MMO.

ESO is not “optimized” for MMO levels of data transfer.

Also ESO is far more balanced than. DAoC ever was. The realms in DAoC had completely different classes. Bone dancers spent 3 years being OP...

I don’t recall this unbalanced situation you’re suggesting in DAoC.

The game by design required co-op so unless you decided to create a 1:1 situation outside of its design, the game required groups of usually 3+ players

I played on Mordred where class imbalances were more pronounced. Then played on classic cluster in 8v8 or 8vZerg setting.

In a Zerg, class balance is not an issue.

In smaller fights, the fact that the three realms did not have equal access to the same classes was certainly an issue.

So again....regardless of the realm if you were part of those who wanted to have your own mini-game ....it would feel off because the game design in the frontier and darkness falls was by design not intended for that gameplay.

The game was balanced tho per realm if you took time to out together an adequate group usually of 12 or more in the Frontier areas. Our guild Spirit of Saint George ran with larger numbers for relic runs and keep attacks.

Those guards would wipe you if reinforced so....the game wasn’t supposed to be a PvP small group or solo situation but ppl did it and then complained. That’s not considered unbalanced, that’s playing the game outside of its design and complaining.

That’s also happening here and causing actual unbalanced results because the devs will change all skills as a result of ppl trying to have their own mini games.

When you refer to “unbalanced” what do you mean?

Do you mean some classes are stronger than others?
Do you mean some alliances are stronger than others?
Do you mean a small group was able to disproportionately defeat a larger group by using skill and teamwork?

DAoC was far more unbalanced in all three of those definitions, but especially the last one. The nature of Crowd Control and Interupts in DAoC made it possible for groups of 8 to kill groups of 80. I’ve done it before and so have many others.

ESO’s neutered CC system has nothing on DAoC’s minute long mezzes, 30 second roots, or the 9 second stuns. In ESO people complain about a 4 second snare.

But DAoC didn’t use LoS as much (terrain was much smoother) so I’ll give you that one.

@Thogard

Dark Age of Camelot was designed for co-op not solo. So much so that for years it was almost impossible to kill. NPCs for some classes in a 1:1 ratio struggled with yellows.

Many fought greens for little exp.
however in a group of supporting roles Tank, Healer DPS and CC you could pull 4-5 orange and red mobs. (That is balanced)

In PvP most found alone could be one shot by some ranged classes based on spec as that was the intended advantage of those classes vs another. (That’s balanced)

In raids or dungeons if you set a mix of support, DPS and CC you could kill all reds non stop

In RvR in groups of 20-150 you could take any keep if you had the right siege, resources and skills assigned (that is balanced in the design)

The only thing that could be considered unbalanced is when people complained that one class couldn’t do what another did. Like when necro launched and could solo oranges non stop with a pet build. (That’s not unbalanced).


Here is what balanced is....depending on the developer intent of gameplay, roles and players are able to experience content and progress.

Edit:
In this game we often see unbalanced because by design it’s initially a solo game. The original game design was balanced and set soft and hard caps with penalties for trying to overpower stats.

It also required you to changed your skills and not rely on a “build” or a “rotation”

If offers co-op gameplay and has group only experiences. So what happens is players think to view class vs class

Dude I played that game for 9 years....Some of what you are saying is not accurate ...Actually the game is still going .... I had some high ranked toons in that game... I played the solo scene and the 8 man scene and the guild group scene.... Actually when I found out that this game was going to have the same aspects of that game in PVP .....thats when I decided to give this game a try....


Solo play in that game was great lol .. Not sure what you are talking about... I could take out any class in the game with a nightshade/assassin

Ranged 1 shots were not really accurate ...maybe stun nuke nuke .... 3 casts could take a low health target down...

Yes the game was designed around groups of (8) IMO and all the classes were generally specialized in something not really hybrids ... infact if you had a hybrid class often time you found yourself with out a group unless you had a support ability of sorts ...

That game had low latency lag only occured in zergs .... I still remember those lag spikes that told me that a massive group was approaching ...

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Insightful.

But those fixes aren't really great. ESO at one point didn't have lag. Its due to spaghetti code rooted into the game a long time ago affecting things it shouldn't.

I’m not aware of the time you’re mentioning.

He is talking of the time right after launch in PC before the lighting update...

Thogard

Durham wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DAoC had minimal latency.

You’d get some FPS drops if you were zerging, but lag was rarely an issue.

It’s engine was streamlined for mass data transfer... basically designed to be an MMO.

ESO is not “optimized” for MMO levels of data transfer.

Also ESO is far more balanced than. DAoC ever was. The realms in DAoC had completely different classes. Bone dancers spent 3 years being OP...

I don’t recall this unbalanced situation you’re suggesting in DAoC.

The game by design required co-op so unless you decided to create a 1:1 situation outside of its design, the game required groups of usually 3+ players

I played on Mordred where class imbalances were more pronounced. Then played on classic cluster in 8v8 or 8vZerg setting.

In a Zerg, class balance is not an issue.

In smaller fights, the fact that the three realms did not have equal access to the same classes was certainly an issue.

So again....regardless of the realm if you were part of those who wanted to have your own mini-game ....it would feel off because the game design in the frontier and darkness falls was by design not intended for that gameplay.

The game was balanced tho per realm if you took time to out together an adequate group usually of 12 or more in the Frontier areas. Our guild Spirit of Saint George ran with larger numbers for relic runs and keep attacks.

Those guards would wipe you if reinforced so....the game wasn’t supposed to be a PvP small group or solo situation but ppl did it and then complained. That’s not considered unbalanced, that’s playing the game outside of its design and complaining.

That’s also happening here and causing actual unbalanced results because the devs will change all skills as a result of ppl trying to have their own mini games.

When you refer to “unbalanced” what do you mean?

Do you mean some classes are stronger than others?
Do you mean some alliances are stronger than others?
Do you mean a small group was able to disproportionately defeat a larger group by using skill and teamwork?

DAoC was far more unbalanced in all three of those definitions, but especially the last one. The nature of Crowd Control and Interupts in DAoC made it possible for groups of 8 to kill groups of 80. I’ve done it before and so have many others.

ESO’s neutered CC system has nothing on DAoC’s minute long mezzes, 30 second roots, or the 9 second stuns. In ESO people complain about a 4 second snare.

But DAoC didn’t use LoS as much (terrain was much smoother) so I’ll give you that one.

@Thogard

Dark Age of Camelot was designed for co-op not solo. So much so that for years it was almost impossible to kill. NPCs for some classes in a 1:1 ratio struggled with yellows.

Many fought greens for little exp.
however in a group of supporting roles Tank, Healer DPS and CC you could pull 4-5 orange and red mobs. (That is balanced)

In PvP most found alone could be one shot by some ranged classes based on spec as that was the intended advantage of those classes vs another. (That’s balanced)

In raids or dungeons if you set a mix of support, DPS and CC you could kill all reds non stop

In RvR in groups of 20-150 you could take any keep if you had the right siege, resources and skills assigned (that is balanced in the design)

The only thing that could be considered unbalanced is when people complained that one class couldn’t do what another did. Like when necro launched and could solo oranges non stop with a pet build. (That’s not unbalanced).


Here is what balanced is....depending on the developer intent of gameplay, roles and players are able to experience content and progress.

Edit:
In this game we often see unbalanced because by design it’s initially a solo game. The original game design was balanced and set soft and hard caps with penalties for trying to overpower stats.

It also required you to changed your skills and not rely on a “build” or a “rotation”

If offers co-op gameplay and has group only experiences. So what happens is players think to view class vs class

Dude I played that game for 9 years....Some of what you are saying is not accurate ...Actually the game is still going .... I had some of the highest ranked toons in that game... I played the solo scene and the 8 man scene and the guild group scene....

Solo play in that game was great lol .. Not sure what you are talking about... I could take out any class in the game with a nightshade/assassin

Ranged 1 shots were not really accurate ...maybe stun nuke nuke .... 3 casts could take a low health target down...

Yes the game was designed around groups of (8) IMO and all the classes were generally specialized in something not really hybrids ... infact if you had a hybrid class often time you found yourself with out a group unless you had a support ability of sorts ...

That game had low latency lag only occured in zergs .... I still remember those lag spikes that told me that a massive group was approaching ...

Those lag spikes on inc were FPS drops, not in game latency like what ESO has.

NewBlacksmurf

..

Durham wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DAoC had minimal latency.

You’d get some FPS drops if you were zerging, but lag was rarely an issue.

It’s engine was streamlined for mass data transfer... basically designed to be an MMO.

ESO is not “optimized” for MMO levels of data transfer.

Also ESO is far more balanced than. DAoC ever was. The realms in DAoC had completely different classes. Bone dancers spent 3 years being OP...

I don’t recall this unbalanced situation you’re suggesting in DAoC.

The game by design required co-op so unless you decided to create a 1:1 situation outside of its design, the game required groups of usually 3+ players

I played on Mordred where class imbalances were more pronounced. Then played on classic cluster in 8v8 or 8vZerg setting.

In a Zerg, class balance is not an issue.

In smaller fights, the fact that the three realms did not have equal access to the same classes was certainly an issue.

So again....regardless of the realm if you were part of those who wanted to have your own mini-game ....it would feel off because the game design in the frontier and darkness falls was by design not intended for that gameplay.

The game was balanced tho per realm if you took time to out together an adequate group usually of 12 or more in the Frontier areas. Our guild Spirit of Saint George ran with larger numbers for relic runs and keep attacks.

Those guards would wipe you if reinforced so....the game wasn’t supposed to be a PvP small group or solo situation but ppl did it and then complained. That’s not considered unbalanced, that’s playing the game outside of its design and complaining.

That’s also happening here and causing actual unbalanced results because the devs will change all skills as a result of ppl trying to have their own mini games.

When you refer to “unbalanced” what do you mean?

Do you mean some classes are stronger than others?
Do you mean some alliances are stronger than others?
Do you mean a small group was able to disproportionately defeat a larger group by using skill and teamwork?

DAoC was far more unbalanced in all three of those definitions, but especially the last one. The nature of Crowd Control and Interupts in DAoC made it possible for groups of 8 to kill groups of 80. I’ve done it before and so have many others.

ESO’s neutered CC system has nothing on DAoC’s minute long mezzes, 30 second roots, or the 9 second stuns. In ESO people complain about a 4 second snare.

But DAoC didn’t use LoS as much (terrain was much smoother) so I’ll give you that one.

@Thogard

Dark Age of Camelot was designed for co-op not solo. So much so that for years it was almost impossible to kill. NPCs for some classes in a 1:1 ratio struggled with yellows.

Many fought greens for little exp.
however in a group of supporting roles Tank, Healer DPS and CC you could pull 4-5 orange and red mobs. (That is balanced)

In PvP most found alone could be one shot by some ranged classes based on spec as that was the intended advantage of those classes vs another. (That’s balanced)

In raids or dungeons if you set a mix of support, DPS and CC you could kill all reds non stop

In RvR in groups of 20-150 you could take any keep if you had the right siege, resources and skills assigned (that is balanced in the design)

The only thing that could be considered unbalanced is when people complained that one class couldn’t do what another did. Like when necro launched and could solo oranges non stop with a pet build. (That’s not unbalanced).


Here is what balanced is....depending on the developer intent of gameplay, roles and players are able to experience content and progress.

Edit:
In this game we often see unbalanced because by design it’s initially a solo game. The original game design was balanced and set soft and hard caps with penalties for trying to overpower stats.

It also required you to changed your skills and not rely on a “build” or a “rotation”

If offers co-op gameplay and has group only experiences. So what happens is players think to view class vs class

Dude I played that game for 9 years....Some of what you are saying is not accurate ...Actually the game is still going .... I had some high ranked toons in that game... I played the solo scene and the 8 man scene and the guild group scene.... Actually when I found out that this game was going to have the same aspects of that game in PVP .....thats when I decided to give this game a try....


Solo play in that game was great lol .. Not sure what you are talking about... I could take out any class in the game with a nightshade/assassin

Ranged 1 shots were not really accurate ...maybe stun nuke nuke .... 3 casts could take a low health target down...

Yes the game was designed around groups of (8) IMO and all the classes were generally specialized in something not really hybrids ... infact if you had a hybrid class often time you found yourself with out a group unless you had a support ability of sorts ...

That game had low latency lag only occured in zergs .... I still remember those lag spikes that told me that a massive group was approaching ...

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Insightful.

But those fixes aren't really great. ESO at one point didn't have lag. Its due to spaghetti code rooted into the game a long time ago affecting things it shouldn't.

I’m not aware of the time you’re mentioning.

He is talking of the time right after launch in PC before the lighting update...

@Durham
Just responding to the part bolded...

- A lot changed from launch to Shrouded Isles and Trials of Atlantis, etc. expansions later so depending upon when you joined your perspective whats accurate and inaccurate may differ. I played from launch through Trials of Atlantis....not later but have logged in 2 years ago to mess around.
- There was lag whether its graphical or internet... for hundreds when the forums were up.
- Most of my perspectives are from playing and from strategy guides provided by the community

Ragnarock41

Thogard wrote: »

DAoC had much simpler coding than ESO. The amount of data a server had to process was only a fraction of what ESO’s servers have to process per client. ESO’s biggest problem is how inefficient it is with data transfer from server to client and vice versa.

What I wonder is, would dx12 or vulkan api help this game in any way, or is the lag totally server sided?

NewBlacksmurf

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DAoC had much simpler coding than ESO. The amount of data a server had to process was only a fraction of what ESO’s servers have to process per client. ESO’s biggest problem is how inefficient it is with data transfer from server to client and vice versa.

What I wonder is, would dx12 or vulkan api help this game in any way, or is the lag totally server sided?

@Ragnarock41

Check these out....

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/324385/directx-12-and-or-vulkan-support

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3522471/#Comment_3522471

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/4sjc49/dx_12_on_eso/

https://wccftech.com/elder-scrolls-online-dx12-upgrade-ps4-7th-core-usage-performance-improvements/

Ragnarock41

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DAoC had much simpler coding than ESO. The amount of data a server had to process was only a fraction of what ESO’s servers have to process per client. ESO’s biggest problem is how inefficient it is with data transfer from server to client and vice versa.

What I wonder is, would dx12 or vulkan api help this game in any way, or is the lag totally server sided?

@Ragnarock41

Check these out....

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/324385/directx-12-and-or-vulkan-support

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3522471/#Comment_3522471

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/4sjc49/dx_12_on_eso/

https://wccftech.com/elder-scrolls-online-dx12-upgrade-ps4-7th-core-usage-performance-improvements/

thanks for the links, I will read these as soon as I get my coffee.

sittinhere

My main serve was perc/alb nad ran fine unless massive relic raids going on. But 8v8 and anything else was great. Merlin/hib, Guin/Mid, Lancelot/Mid, all those ran fine. Only time people complained of any lag was during relic raids because they got so big, 400v400v400 would do that

NewBlacksmurf

sittinhere wrote: »

My main serve was perc/alb nad ran fine unless massive relic raids going on. But 8v8 and anything else was great. Merlin/hib, Guin/Mid, Lancelot/Mid, all those ran fine. Only time people complained of any lag was during relic raids because they got so big, 400v400v400 would do that

what is 8v8?
Is that something ppl starting doing years later in the frontier?

Thogard

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DAoC had much simpler coding than ESO. The amount of data a server had to process was only a fraction of what ESO’s servers have to process per client. ESO’s biggest problem is how inefficient it is with data transfer from server to client and vice versa.

What I wonder is, would dx12 or vulkan api help this game in any way, or is the lag totally server sided?

Eh latency and FPS issues are completely separate. People used to get corrected and mocked for conflating the two. Now it seems everyone has given up.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

sittinhere wrote: »

My main serve was perc/alb nad ran fine unless massive relic raids going on. But 8v8 and anything else was great. Merlin/hib, Guin/Mid, Lancelot/Mid, all those ran fine. Only time people complained of any lag was during relic raids because they got so big, 400v400v400 would do that

what is 8v8?
Is that something ppl starting doing years later in the frontier?

Yes as less and less casuals remained in the game, there were far more 8man groups that would either farm zergs or fight each other. A pretty strict honor code developed between all the good groups, the main rule being that you can’t attack (“AJ” lol) a group that’s already fighting a Zerg or another group.

Good times.

Durham weren’t you a paladin?

NewBlacksmurf

Ok cause I was thinking....hmm maybe I missed something but now I get it. The 8v8 is similar to the Cyrodil dueling.

That’s interesting because of possible situations but anyways, my point of it all was talking about the game early on. It’s very comparable to this game in the same timeframe but this games population stayed stronger a lot longer so the issues in DAoC and the issues here are very similar and seem to derive from the same lead developers influence.

I understand some people here and in DAoC would say they didn’t experience something but it’s all perspective. The reality is the two are undeniably similar in many ways with design and issues.

That’s been my point of the thread, my hope is this isn’t another title sold to EA but maybe that would be a good thing. DAoC seems to have benefited from that in some ways at the cost of a drastic player reduction over time. Maybe it’s not accurate to give EA the benefit.

Whatever happens I seriously doubt any good can come from the current design as it’s logically going to end in bad results as this developer lead is famous for doing server related things different than anyone else but it’s not been to any great level of success. It’s laid ground for new experiences and all games have their issues, but these two have had the same lingering issues for the life of the two.

Thogard

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Ok cause I was thinking....hmm maybe I missed something but now I get it. The 8v8 is similar to the Cyrodil dueling.

That’s interesting because of possible situations but anyways, my point of it all was talking about the game early on. It’s very comparable to this game in the same timeframe but this games population stayed stronger a lot longer so the issues in DAoC and the issues here are very similar and seem to derive from the same lead developers influence.

I understand some people here and in DAoC would say they didn’t experience something but it’s all perspective. The reality is the two are undeniably similar in many ways with design and issues.

That’s been my point of the thread, my hope is this isn’t another title sold to EA but maybe that would be a good thing. DAoC seems to have benefited from that in some ways at the cost of a drastic player reduction over time. Maybe it’s not accurate to give EA the benefit.

Whatever happens I seriously doubt any good can come from the current design as it’s logically going to end in bad results as this developer lead is famous for doing server related things different than anyone else but it’s not been to any great level of success. It’s laid ground for new experiences and all games have their issues, but these two have had the same lingering issues for the life of the two.

You keep doing this thing where you directly contradict yourself and it hurts my brain to try to figure out what you mean.

And I don’t mean a contradiction as in “I disagree with you”. I mean a contradiction where you disagree with you.

For example “...it’s very comparable to this game in the same timeframe but this games population stayed stronger a lot longer so the issues in DAoC and the issues here are very similar...”

Wouldn’t the difference in population trends make the games different? Why would you throw that counter example in the middle of your hypothesis? Whether that little factoid is right or wrong doesn’t matter - what matters is that it’s a direct contradiction of the sentence you actually wrote it inside of.

Another example - you say that EA taking over DAoC was a good thing. But the population went down (bad thing). But then you say DAoC benefited from (the takeover). But then you say you don’t want to give EA the benefit (so implying director did well) But then you say the ESO director is doing poorly and that’s it’s the same as DAoC.

It makes my brain hurt trying to find meaning in this.

I get the feeling that you want to communicate something to us, but the structure of your logic is just so illogical that I have to wonder if you’re a brilliant troll that is dead set on making the most illogical points possible.

I want to stress that I’m not disagreeing with you. How can I disagree with you if I have no clue what your point is anyway? You still haven’t even tried to define “balance” yet in a way that someone other than you can understand.

Please help us understand you.

NewBlacksmurf

Thogard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Ok cause I was thinking....hmm maybe I missed something but now I get it. The 8v8 is similar to the Cyrodil dueling.

That’s interesting because of possible situations but anyways, my point of it all was talking about the game early on. It’s very comparable to this game in the same timeframe but this games population stayed stronger a lot longer so the issues in DAoC and the issues here are very similar and seem to derive from the same lead developers influence.

I understand some people here and in DAoC would say they didn’t experience something but it’s all perspective. The reality is the two are undeniably similar in many ways with design and issues.

That’s been my point of the thread, my hope is this isn’t another title sold to EA but maybe that would be a good thing. DAoC seems to have benefited from that in some ways at the cost of a drastic player reduction over time. Maybe it’s not accurate to give EA the benefit.

Whatever happens I seriously doubt any good can come from the current design as it’s logically going to end in bad results as this developer lead is famous for doing server related things different than anyone else but it’s not been to any great level of success. It’s laid ground for new experiences and all games have their issues, but these two have had the same lingering issues for the life of the two.

You keep doing this thing where you directly contradict yourself and it hurts my brain to try to figure out what you mean.

And I don’t mean a contradiction as in “I disagree with you”. I mean a contradiction where you disagree with you.

For example “...it’s very comparable to this game in the same timeframe but this games population stayed stronger a lot longer so the issues in DAoC and the issues here are very similar...”

Wouldn’t the difference in population trends make the games different? Why would you throw that counter example in the middle of your hypothesis? Whether that little factoid is right or wrong doesn’t matter - what matters is that it’s a direct contradiction of the sentence you actually wrote it inside of.

Another example - you say that EA taking over DAoC was a good thing. But the population went down (bad thing). But then you say DAoC benefited from (the takeover). But then you say you don’t want to give EA the benefit (so implying director did well) But then you say the ESO director is doing poorly and that’s it’s the same as DAoC.

It makes my brain hurt trying to find meaning in this.

I get the feeling that you want to communicate something to us, but the structure of your logic is just so illogical that I have to wonder if you’re a brilliant troll that is dead set on making the most illogical points possible.

I want to stress that I’m not disagreeing with you. How can I disagree with you if I have no clue what your point is anyway? You still haven’t even tried to define “balance” yet in a way that someone other than you can understand.

Please help us understand you.

@Thogard

It’s how you’re reading it. You’re reading it with what you want my comments to mean vs what I wrote.

I never said I played DAoC long enough to measure/compare much after the population dropped, and I also did clarify this before and within that clarification that looking at the two games there are lots of similarities which leads the logic that PvP will never be resolved in its current state/design unless major changes occur.

Would the population trends make the game different. No, a game is a game until it’s changed a lot or until it’s under a new direction and company. Neither of which occurred during the timeframe I’m seeking to discuss.

I make those comments because you are referring to DAoC outside of the timeframe I’m discussing. Not saying you didn’t play during the timeframe but specifically the references to 8v8, which wasn’t a widely practiced experience when I was playing, is why I wrote that as you and another are discussing other timeframes that exceed my OP.

Also, let’s note my OP isn’t a hypothesis, it’s a comparison. While it’s unlikely, perhaps technology advances and developer decisions could lead to a day where ESO’s Cyrodil isn’t almost a direct comparison of issues when looking at DAoC.

It’s not a contradiction but it’s how you’re reading it. If we stay on topic, maybe my comments won’t be unclear. On topic in reference of how I set the timeframe in the OP.

On to your other comment about EA taking over.
Again.....this is to respond to your comments outside of my OP. It’s possible EA Mythic made changes but I can’t give them credit as when they took over, the game drastically changed their servers. So much so that players were given an option to transfer/migrate into fewer server options and I didn’t follow the game then.

I got an email and did the migration and had access maybe 30 days, but i didn’t see one person the whole time. Maybe I logged in twice .....AND that was over 10 years after release so technology and our computers are leaps and bounds different as well as server technology.

THEREFORE it may not be appropriate to attribute the current experiences to anything EA Mythic is running as when it was Mythic, during the timeframe you’re describing, perhaps changes occurred then. Again, I wasn’t there so i don’t know but I do know Matt F wasn’t there as he said he’s been working with ZOS on this game at least 5 years prior to EDO’s release so that removes him from the DAoC situation.

In the OP, I refer to his direction as the root of the problems.

Regarding disagreeing.....just Google or Bing this stuff. It wouldn’t just be me you’re disagreeing with IF we discuss the timeframe in my OP. I’d like to point out tho....if 8v8 had lag issues years later......just saying.....that’s 16 people. The design was for hundreds so if with new tech is sometimes lag if any type.....see my OP

Thogard

Can you give an example of an issue that DAoC had at launch and that was made worse by Mythic? You mention lag a lot, so I’m guessing that’s one of your issues. Can you give a concrete example of what you mean by lag? High longs and unresponsive ness, low FPS drops when a Zerg comes in, 1fps in keep battles, skills being delayed by 2s or more... lag means different things to different people and I’m just trying to understand what you mean.

NewBlacksmurf

Thogard wrote: »

Can you give an example of an issue that DAoC had at launch and that was made worse by Mythic? You mention lag a lot, so I’m guessing that’s one of your issues. Can you give a concrete example of what you mean by lag? High longs and unresponsive ness, low FPS drops when a Zerg comes in, 1fps in keep battles, skills being delayed by 2s or more... lag means different things to different people and I’m just trying to understand what you mean.

@Thogard
Mythic was the original developer under Matt F, the same Matt F who now runs ESO.

Not to be confused with the later EA Mythic after the game was taken over by EA.

My OP and comments on page one describe the lag. It wasn’t “one of your issues” it was an issue thousands of others reported and experienced during year 1 and 2.

Read the first page please.....it’s not an opinion it’s what actually was occurring regardless of my location and ISP. Also regardless of my gaming two different rigs, my brothers different rigs and the hundreds in our guild. For context my brother was invited to the professional gaming completion for a few years. He was Novell certified and built three servers for our local colleges. He now manages office 360 servers as a Microsoft employee and works with Bill Gates personal office 360 cloud server so it’s not just me....or my misunderstanding or setup.

You can also perform web searches if you’re interested in specific examples outside of my experiences. While the original forums aren’t there, the new forums and third party sites still have some info.

thedude33

Xsorus wrote: »

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Could also say cyrodiil is a copy of wvw from gw2.... Just arenanet got it right with class balance/structure, tournament setup so wvw(pvp) never got stale and server/infrastructure quality.
Been an oceanic player..... Notice a MASSIVE difference between eso and gw2 (gw2 the zergs are larger yet there is less large).

Rofl what?

Arenanet most certainly didn’t get anything right with their WVW system. Most of it ended up being nothing but rotating keep farming and thanks to their rankings system only the number 1 server pairings was remotely competitive as everything past that came down to off hour population and just straight up zerging of one faction on the other two.

And wvw is so stale in that game they made new maps and flat out had to remove them because they were terrible.

100% true. If you actually defended a tower or keep, you would receive hate tells from your own realm for slowing the circle jerk.