VaranisArano wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Whatever his motives may have been in the beginning: What we see of him in TES3 is quite definitely evil by all standards.
What he may or may not want, is made completely irrelevant by what he does.

What standards? Societal? Society is a terrible source of morality. What, then? Is there some universal law? Governmental? If Voryn Dagoth were successful in his quest, he would be the decider of laws, making his actions the new standard for ‘good.’ In fact, if you look at his long-term objectives (http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Dagoth_Ur's_Plans), it sounds like a win. Kill the N’wahs? Build a Dunmeri Empire? Sign me up!

Then again, I would grow bored without a renewable source of slaves. I suppose cutting off my supply could be considered ‘evil.’

Sure, if you can enjoy that empire while you're a corprus-infected Blight-victim, a brainwashed Sleeper, or an Ash Vampire. If that sounds appealing to you, then by all means, hail Lord Dagoth Ur of the Sixth House Returned.

I'll give you that Dagoth Ur gives a reasonable villain speech at the end of the game, but the state of the Sixth House bases that I went through in order to get to him made it pretty clear to my Nerevarine that his pretty words were very much a villain speech.

(P.S. If you think that killing outlanders and building an empire are good things just because the new authority says you should...there's an obvious historical comparison that's obvious. Actually, there's a lot of historical comparisons that are obvious, usually having to do with hated minority groups in certain countries. I'm sure that from the perspective of roleplaying an extremely xenophobic dunmer, killing the n'wah and building an empire are a good thing, but let's keep in mind that roleplaying an extremely xenophobic dunmer who wants to kill the n'wah and build an empire is a lot like roleplaying some very not-good people.)

VaranisArano wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Whatever his motives may have been in the beginning: What we see of him in TES3 is quite definitely evil by all standards.
What he may or may not want, is made completely irrelevant by what he does.

What standards? Societal? Society is a terrible source of morality. What, then? Is there some universal law? Governmental? If Voryn Dagoth were successful in his quest, he would be the decider of laws, making his actions the new standard for ‘good.’ In fact, if you look at his long-term objectives (http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Dagoth_Ur's_Plans), it sounds like a win. Kill the N’wahs? Build a Dunmeri Empire? Sign me up!

Then again, I would grow bored without a renewable source of slaves. I suppose cutting off my supply could be considered ‘evil.’

Sure, if you can enjoy that empire while you're a corprus-infected Blight-victim, a brainwashed Sleeper, or an Ash Vampire. If that sounds appealing to you, then by all means, hail Lord Dagoth Ur of the Sixth House Returned.

I'll give you that Dagoth Ur gives a reasonable villain speech at the end of the game, but the state of the Sixth House bases that I went through in order to get to him made it pretty clear to my Nerevarine that his pretty words were very much a villain speech.

(P.S. If you think that killing outlanders and building an empire are good things just because the new authority says you should...there's an obvious historical comparison that's obvious. Actually, there's a lot of historical comparisons that are obvious, usually having to do with hated minority groups in certain countries. I'm sure that from the perspective of roleplaying an extremely xenophobic dunmer, killing the n'wah and building an empire are a good thing, but let's keep in mind that roleplaying an extremely xenophobic dunmer who wants to kill the n'wah and build an empire is a lot like roleplaying some very not-good people.)

Well, Imperialism has been used by many countries I’m sure you’d consider ‘good.’ The majority of history is people trying to 1-up their fellow countries. Speak softly and carry a big stick, and all that.

As for killing N’wahs, I suppose you could make a reference to the terrible Russian purges that killed millions. Or you could talk about the British fire-bombing civilian towns like Dresden. Or the times (plural) the Allies ‘accidentally’ bombed Switzerland. Or the U.S. imprisoning innocent Japanese citizens. Or the U.S. nuking two Japanese cities filled with civilians. Sometimes, all sides are bad. In that case, go with whoever benefits you the most.

It’s all about perspective; for my family, the Russians are the “obvious historical comparison that’s obvious.” They were robbed of everything they owned, and they were some of the lucky ones. The less fortunate were defiled in terrible ways. But Russia never had to apologize. They never had to ask Germany for forgiveness. In fact, they deny their actions. They were with the Allies, and to quote Churchill, “History is written by the victors.” Both sides did terrible, terrible things, and both suffered terrible, terrible losses.

What does all of this have to do with TES? Everything. The gray nature of the series makes it realistic in that every side can validate their position. No one side is ‘good’ or ‘evil,’ yet all sides commit good and evil acts. And sometimes roleplaying a “very not-good” character is the most entertaining course of action.

I don't consider any of those things good just because those countries were the "victors" and rewrote the history books accordingly. U.S. Imperialism under Teddy Roosevelt had lots of horrible effects - I don't think its good or justified just because I've benefited from it as a U.S. citizen. Ask me about Andrew Jackson and his mixed legacy sometime. Churchill, Truman and the atomic bomb, and so on. History rarely gives us purely heroic options.

Likewise, I don't consider Dagoth Ur a "good" character just because he's got an effective villain speech that seeks to "rewrite history" when he becomes the victor. He's done terrible things in the game that my Nerevarine has seen and intends to cause more death and destruction in the name of his "greater good." So my Nerevarine opposes his vision, not because he's been labeled "evil" but because my Nerevarine despises the vision of a diseased and brainwashed future he offers Morrowind.

I'll grant you that roleplaying a not-very-good character is entertaining. Roleplaying an extremely xenophobic Dunmer who wants to be imperialistic and kill the n'wah is entertaining for a certain value of entertaining (I'll admit I don't enjoy role-playing xenophobic characters because it feeds my inner jerk. I try not to feed my inner jerk too often.) Its still roleplaying a not-very-good character and then trying to argue that what's good for that character is good in the moral sense. I mean, just because the Dunmer consider slavery a positive good doesn't actually make slavery a positive good. Just because empires throughout history have considered Imperialism a positive good doesn't make it so. (And, yes, because someone will bring them up if I don't say this, I'm familiar with the various arguments about slavery in ancient history vs american slavery. I...don't really care to hear them again? It's immaterial to the actual discussion anyway.)

Finally, to be specific in an Elder Scrolls sense, I can roleplay a 4th Era Thalmor Justiciar who regards killing humans and especially Talos worshippers to be a positive good moving the Altmer (the only race that really matters) closer to their goal of ascension. I can do that...without ever pretending that committing genocide or oppressing people for their religion is a morally good thing outside of the limits of my roleplay. If I start acting like genocide and oppressing people for their religion is a morally good thing outside of my roleplay, I've got a big problem.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

No one is truly good or evil. Like any well-written character, he is somewhere in-between.

VaranisArano wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

My point is that morality is just as fictional as TES. It is nothing more than a method of humanizing one’s allies and dehumanizing one’s enemies. An effective tool? Certainly. You can trick anyone into doing anything if they believe it the ‘right thing to do.’ The issue is that there is no real ‘right thing to do.’ Anyone can do anything within the legal boundaries of their country. Laws define what is acceptable. Laws are concrete and objective. Morality is an opinion, and opinions hold little weight to me in an argument.

If the argument we're having is that morality is fictional, that slavery and genocide cannot be said to be evil except as evil from a certain point of view and good from another point of view, and that anything can be justified so long as it is legal...

I'm going to have to disagree, so strenuously, that's there's no point in having that argument with you. We have an irreconcilable difference in how we look at the world.

Instead, I'm going to turn to another work of fiction: Terry Pratchett's Hogfather.

“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I think you miss the point. Nerevar realized that the power of the heart of Lorkhan would ultimately corrupt any mortal, regardless of how good their intentions might once have been.

Dagoth Ur wanted the power for himself. As did Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Vivec - to the extent that they murdered Nerevar and broke their promise not to use it.

In the end it drove all of them mad.

And the Nerevarine did the only decent thing and destroyed all of them

Aideian wrote: »

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Xvorg wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I think you miss the point. Nerevar realized that the power of the heart of Lorkhan would ultimately corrupt any mortal, regardless of how good their intentions might once have been.

Dagoth Ur wanted the power for himself. As did Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Vivec - to the extent that they murdered Nerevar and broke their promise not to use it.

In the end it drove all of them mad.

And the Nerevarine did the only decent thing and destroyed all of them

I have a different theory, I'll try to explain it point after point:

1- Nerevar and Dagoth killed Kagre and came to the Hearth of Lorkhan.
2- Nerevar purpose was to take the power of the Heart, thus becoming the new embodiment of Lorkhan.
3- Dagoth realized what Nerevar was doing and killed him using Sunder, Kennag and (or) Wraithguard.
4- Since Nerevar blood was spilled on Dagoth, he, in turn, becomes the new embodiment of Lorkhan.
5- Vivec, Sotha and Alma arrive and see Dagoth. He explains what happens and his plan. They reject that.
6- They get their hand on Kagre tools and to defeat Dagohth, using the power of the Heart (which can only be used properly through the use of the tools)
7- Since they are betraying Nerevar, and in certain way spoiling Azura's plan (I'll go there later), they are cursed by Azura
8- Then they become the Tribunal as we knew them.

Well, in my opinion Azura's plan was no other than make Nerevar the (new) embodiment of Lorkhan, but the plan failed because Dagoth Ur. Since Dagoth Ur wasn't an appropiate vessel for Lorkhan and since the other 3 took the power for themselves, Azura cursed them and set the prophecy in motion to kill Dagoth Ur and put Nerevarine as the new embodiment of Lorkhan on mundus.

So at the end, Nerevarine destroys the Heart, but absorbs its power. I believe after going to Akavir, he created his own Oblivion Plane where he retired from Nirn.

There's a slight problem with your theory, the heart of lorkhan wasn't destroyed, it can't be destroyed and no one can absorb it's entire power. And my theory involving the heart Is the dwemer are actually trapped in the heart it's like a Soul Gem and it has it's own plane of existence.