Because tanks just arent that useful unless its a vet dungeon or a trial.

Also, pure tanks really -arent- needed anywhere else than in trials.

So you cant blame the DPS for not caring about you in all other activities.
I main a tank, im okish. But if I join a dungeon and the L33T DPS decides to speedrun and haze through everything, it doesnt bother me. I'll swap a few skills and can reach a semi-reliable 15k dps. So I'll just do the run setup like that keeping the undaunted taunt in case something bad happens on the team.

Now and then that L33T DPS will hit a wall. There are a few Bosses in vet dungeons (and even sometimes normal dungeons) that have high one hit attacks that will just waste them. Because they wouldnt let you aggro. In those situations I leave them dead. And they learn. 'Oh ok, maybe I should leave it to the tank'

What DOES annoy me, is the somewhat-meta where End game Tanks are supposed to hold all aggro on the mobs and guide them into certain positions for better AOE dps AND DEBUFF them , all that while battling for aggro with stupid warden/sorcerer pets. Death to pets.

Because us dps really don't need a tank in dungeons. Your entire role can be replaced by another dps...how does that make you feel?

I made a post in another thread about pets stealing agro and was told I was wrong, pets cannot steal agro. I know every time I tank for a pet sorc, I lose agro and the boss starts attacking the clanfear, never tanked for a warden with a bear.

jlboozer wrote: »

Because us dps really don't need a tank in dungeons. Your entire role can be replaced by another dps...how does that make you feel?

Tanks can be replaced in most normals, for sure. That's what I was getting at - when people hit dungeons which go better with tanks (e.g. when a tank can hold the planar inhibitor still for multiple phases) the dps don't know how to let a tank do its job because they haven't needed a tank before.

(And I know there are 3 dps farm groups out there who run vet dlc content, but you're probably better players than the average pug dps.)

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Because tanks just arent that useful unless its a vet dungeon or a trial.

Also, pure tanks really -arent- needed anywhere else than in trials.

So you cant blame the DPS for not caring about you in all other activities.
I main a tank, im okish. But if I join a dungeon and the L33T DPS decides to speedrun and haze through everything, it doesnt bother me. I'll swap a few skills and can reach a semi-reliable 15k dps. So I'll just do the run setup like that keeping the undaunted taunt in case something bad happens on the team.

[...]

What DOES annoy me, is the somewhat-meta where End game Tanks are supposed to hold all aggro on the mobs and guide them into certain positions for better AOE dps AND DEBUFF them , all that while battling for aggro with stupid warden/sorcerer pets. Death to pets.

Agreed, tanks aren't needed for a good chunk of the content, but that doesn't mean a tank is useless y'know?

Ughhhhh clannfears. So useful for soloing, so awful for group content. And the "hold everything while blocking and debuffing" is a lot harder than people give tanks credit for. one of the things I like about Falkreath Hold is the clear taunt priority: tank holds the minotaurs, dps need to deal with the humans. It's a nice change from "Why aren't you holding everything omg."

@victoriana-blue do not underestimate a good Tank and a good Healer. Having done many 3 DD runs, I can tell you that a combination of Healer and Tank can lead to higher DPS. When running as 2 mNBs DDs, do not underestimate how much a Healer brings to the table. Not having to put drain yourself, SPC, Worm, additional off-balance, no need to run harness, no need to move much because you get healed, Horn in the right burst moments, Crusher enchant... it adds up. As far as Tanks go, good stacking, 20% more flame damage, Horn, Alkosh, etc.

To provide an example: In vBF HM, with a perfect Tank and Healer, we once managed to make the (big) boss split twice and killed him before he started stomping, and every time we get pretty close to that. With 3 perfect DDs, he usually splits twice, but instantly starts stomping, as the DPS with 3 DDs is ~10% lower in a perfect setting. The reason comes down to mainly magicka sustain. Without Worm, it's tough to sustain Force Pulse with Perfect Asylum's Staff; you either run out of magicka before the boss stomps or have to use Funnel, which decreases DPS. Also, one DD has to use drain, as it is a must-have. Then you're missing SPC, Crusher and other buffs/debuffs. Thus, a good combo of Healer and Tank can definitely make up for another DD and, in a perfect world, outdps a 3 DD group.

Meld777 wrote: »

@victoriana-blue do not underestimate a good Tank and a good Healer. Having done many 3 DD runs, I can tell you that a combination of Healer and Tank can lead to higher DPS. When running as 2 mNBs DDs, do not underestimate how much a Healer brings to the table. Not having to put drain yourself, SPC, Worm, additional off-balance, no need to run harness, no need to move much because you get healed, Horn in the right burst moments... it adds up. As far as Tanks go, good stacking, 20% more flame damage, etc.

To provide an example: In vBF HM, with a perfect Tank and Healer, we once managed to make the (big) boss split twice and killed him before he started stomping, and every time we get pretty close to that. With 3 perfect DDs, he usually splits twice, but instantly starts stomping, as the DPS with 3 DDs is ~10% lower in a perfect setting. The reason comes down to mainly magicka sustain. Without Worm, it's tough to sustain Force Pulse with Perfect Asylum's Staff; you either run out of magicka before the boss stomps or have to use Funnel, which decreases DPS. Also, one DD has to use drain, as it is a must-have. Then you're missing SPC, etc. Thus, a good combo of Healer and Tank can definitely make up for another DD and, in a perfect world, outdps a 3 DD group.

Trust me, I'd rather have a good tank & healer than an extra dps any day. :Db Even in nFG1 I can see the difference in trash pulls when the tank has talons or swarm mother to drag the ranged mobs into the aoe, compared to chasing down ungrouped goblins or dreugh; that 10% damage difference is nothing to sneeze at in vet content. Non-DK tanks don't have the flame bonus, but NB can offer off-heals and the assassination passive, sorcs have dark exchange and good damage mitigation to make things easier on the healer, etc.

And I think 3 dps groups are underestimating how good their healer is, but that's another topic.

Meld777 wrote: »

There's real tanks in group finder? What?

When I que on my Tank, I Tank. Besides, his whole 2AK to 4K of DPS is not going to cut it if I play as a DPS on that character.

I have been fortunate that I have not gotten in group all that often that has run ahead ignoring the rest of the group, and when I do, I just leave the group. I can log to an Alt to wait for the 15 minute penalty.

With most groups I just say in chat, "let me aggro the boss and some adds first and then you can wail on stuff" and the others tend to follow that advice. Especially after the first boss fight where they receive 0 damage from the boss. Of course I have buffed them all up to on my way to the boss, so they soon figure out what a Tank can do for the group.

What is really ironic about this is the DPS who run ahead thinking they are getting the dungeon done faster without the Tank are just fooling themselves.

Buffing the group, debuffing the boss and adds and drawing most of the ads together to make it easier to burn down makes the dungeon go faster.

Failure is the best teacher.

Did you taunt the boss off of me with your ice staff and now you can't handle the boss chasing you? You'll listen when I tell you that you've enabled the ice staff heavy attack taunt with Tri-Focus.

Did you fail to burn the Planar Inhibitor down before blue phase and then no one took the pinion from my tank so I died and you all wiped? You'll listen when I explain how the pinion works. (Or really, any other example of mechanics that benefit from a tank that you have no clue how to deal with when your superior DPS falls flat and you actually have to respect the mechanics)

Did you run ahead and pull all the mobs and nearly die? You're only making your life harder because I'll get there with my crowd control when I get there, while I get to watch you do most of the work. Same with aggroing the mobs before I get there. I mean, I could have made your life easier but you'll never know.

I'm your tank. I know the dungeon mechanics. I make sure the boss only hits you with the script attacks and I'm the one taking all the cleaves. I know the mob placement and how best to stack them up so you can burn them. I know my priority targets, I know what to bash/block/interrupt, where to stand, and I'll almost certainly be the last one standing if you make a stupid mistake.

But if you don't want a tank in your group and want to showboat instead, I'll be watching you like:

I stopped using the "You pull it, you tank it" argument after someone said "Ok, I'll do that" then proceeded to carry my useless ass though the dungeon.

When it's important to know if everyone is ready, and make sure the tank is pulling, you will be given that option, trust me. Also, it's not going to happen in vanilla dungeons, but rather only in trials or some of the DLC dungeons. People can argue about "fake tanks" but the truth is that high performing individuals won't need one.

That said, advice:

You're in a group with runners ? Slot rapid maneuvers. Everyone will run faster, but they'll have to stay close to you to get the buff, and their disposition towards you will be better.

When it's time to pull, don't think too much, get in, taunt the boss, if anyone says they weren't ready, well, too bad, you're the tank. Don't worry about The perfect positioning(TM) or to pull all the adds. If they run, make sure you run faster. If you have access to it, make sure to use something that gives you major expedition (double take, bird of prey, refreshing path, rapid maneuvers) so you won't need to sprint too much and waste stamina. <- Adapt.

If you want to be an ***, you can always kite the boss out of the destro ultis or the ground aoes. If anyone asks, you need to position the boss. After a couple times doing that they will wait for you to taunt before doing anything else.

If you decide to do that, make sure you're 100% sure what you're doing is the correct thing to do (like positioning Sellistrix on the only island that's not gonna be electrified) or the right strategy, because it's not necessarily a nice thing to do and your teammates won't like it, so if you decide to do that, make sure you have a very strong argument. <- Make them adapt.

Other than that, don't think too much about what happens when you use the Pugroulette (GF). You can't control who you get, so take it or leave it. You want stability ? Run with a static group. Add discord for extra fun.

Hope this helps.
Have a nice day.

I've done the 3 DD + healer thing. Halfway through the dungeon a boss targeted our squishiest DD who accidentally kited the boss out of the active area and the fight reset - after the boss was already moving all over the place to focus different people.

I don't blame the DD, the active area wasn't clear. But after that, my DD slotted a taunt because a boss that stands mostly still is a boss that gets burned down with full DPS.

Wanna be leeties who eat their Wheaties. You have to love 'em just as much as you hate 'em.

"You're all garbage!"
"I have to heal, dps, and tank?! scoff scoff!"
"I bet your crafted set is called scrub!?" "LOLOL"!

as a noob healer, i find that passing crown to the tank makes finding the ideal arrangement much easier