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DPS Tests are wildly biased
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XiDiabolismiX✭✭✭Listen guys,
A lot of people are biased and misinformed about a dps test on a target dummy. The sole reason these are a thing is to see if you have the capabilities to perform well in group content with the character you're playing.
"Are you capable of performing a rotation that maximizes your characters damage potential?" It's not a race of how high you can go, but how efficient and consistent you are. Everybody knows that trials/dungeon bosses don't stand still, and hell, half the time you can't fit in a full rotation like you would on a test dummy.
The guild I'm in asks for you to be in trials gear, with trials cp and mundus. Then we take an average of 5 tests to show your consistent damage output. Most people miss the point and cheese the dummy with full penetration sets but that shows up in an optimized raid parse.
The difference between wall/ele for magical and just piercing for stamina is dependent on your own guilds testing standards and their goals for their teams.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
It's not about making your parse look better. It's about testing the rotation and bars that you'd use in a trial. Nobody cares about your rotation and bars for solo parsing.
I agree that rotation should be the same for parsing and trials. IMO every Magicka DPS should be running a shield in trials, which is the perfect spot for ele drain during a dummy parse. Since ele drain can be cast before combat starts, it only needs to be refreshed at 24s and 48s (maybe a 3rd time at 72s for lower DPS). I don't think that the 2-3 refreshes of ele drain are going to change a good parse into a bad one, especially since most fights require a couple seconds of defense (shielding or dodging, etc.). This also demonstrates the ability to track buffs.
Anyway, my point was more directed at some individuals that take down a 3mil dummy with someone providing worm, SPC, Warhorn, drain, guard, combat prayer, orbs/shards, etc. then claim they are top DPS because their parse is higher than all the self-buffed ones in other builds. If you want to have full raid buffs, go do a raid parse on something that fights back. And if some buffs are allowed on dummy parses, drawing the line anywhere is arbitrary. If nobody else is nearby, then all variables except individual skill can be removed.
I completely agree that changing gear or CPs for a parse is cheese. I disagree about the Lover Mundus though. When I'm parsing new guildies I prefer if they used the lover Mundus. Lover effectively simulates Torugs Inf Crusher + Power of the Light or Alkosh + PotL, which means that having too many points in spell erosion or piercing will be detrimental to dummy DPS (just as it would for trials DPS).
The situation I'm trying to avoid is: someone optimizing a build on a dummy with the apprentice stone (because they heard lover was cheese), and then putting way too many points in pen for trials or doing something like wearing Spinner set. As an officer that has to parse people all the time I really would not want to have to check everyone's gear and CP's every time (obviously not trusted friend, but some people follow very misguided builds), so Lover stone does that check for me.
The only gear exception I make is that stamina can wear TFS, as though they were in a trial with 7 Magicka DPS.
Anyway, I'm glad this topic was brought up. It gives the community a chance to discuss what is or is not acceptable for parsing.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SmellyUnlimited wrote: »
Well duh ...SmellyUnlimited wrote: »DPS Tests are wildly biased
My epeen is small enough that i always only list my SOLO DPS, and by SOLO i actually mean SOLO, not me hitting the dummy while someone else provides buffs/debuffs.
SOLO DPS as in, i'm there all lonely and sad, blaming that wretched dummy for all my misery while i hack it to pieces.
You're missing the point. The reason why those buffs are provided is because a big part about dummy parses is seeing if someone has a good rotation. If a DPS needs to provide their own Ele, then (1) that alters their bar setup and (2) that alters their rotation. If they just run without Ele, then they'll need to heavy attack more which again changes their rotation.
As for stamina DPS, due to the amount of heavy attacks they have, they should be able to sustain without Master springs, so the lack of that sustain would not change what they do.
By that logic, Magicka then should get pierce only, same as stam. Stam has to heavy attack to get resources, but somehow Mag gets a pass? Yeah, in a perfect world Stam wouldn’t have to heavy attack either. It is entirely for resource gain, the damage/ult building is much more efficient if you can afford to just light attack. Even with Bound Armaments/Igneous, heavy attacking will not outparse the increases ultimate usage damage. But that’s what Stam has to do....well....because not doing it means less resources, and that would (gasp) change our rotation.
Wut.
I think you should take another look at how ult generation works if you think that LA weaving is more beneficial for that.
And also, two words: Vicious Ophidian. Stam can just use VO on a parse and get one of the best sustain tools in the game.
No one should care about solo parses anyway. You do them to practice a rotation, and to compare things in your build or to compare to someone else using a similar build. And why on earth do you care how some other people handle their solo DPS tests? Stam DPS ought to be able to sustain a 3mil skeleton parse completely solo. They ought to be able to sustain a 6mil skeleton parse completely solo, at that. And if they can't, you don't want them in your raid group, because if they can't sustain in a situation with no blocking/dodging/breakfree, how are they gonna sustain decent DPS in raid?
The only parses that matter are in-game parses on real bosses. Since we can't do that on console, the thing that matters are 52mil skeleton parses with a full raid group. And in those situations, you have stamina DPS doing 10-20k more DPS than magicka, so let's not shed too many tears for the stamboys.
And hell, the majority of solo DPS parse videos I see are total cheese anyway. "Check out my sweet 50k solo DPS parse!!! ... (using The Lover and 55 points in Piercing and using Kra'gh and Twice-Fanged Serpent)."Edited by LiquidPony on January 19, 2018 4:16PM2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
It's not about making your parse look better. It's about testing the rotation and bars that you'd use in a trial. Nobody cares about your rotation and bars for solo parsing.SmellyUnlimited wrote: »Because a lot of guilds have a dps threshold you have to meet to run vMoL, vHoF, etc. No one is compared against anything other than that magic number.
Most guilds will have a threshold of X for ranged magicka and Y for melee stamina. Some will even have different thresholds for different classes. If a guild has a single threshold for all types of players, then that guild's leadership doesn't know what they're doing.SmellyUnlimited wrote: »Side note: DPS parses also suffer from people using sets/cp no one uses in a trial. TFS shouldn’t be used in an organized trial group, yet there you have it. People running the Lover mundus for tests, putting 100 pts into tenacity/regen, etc.
We call parses like that "cheese parses". The kinds of things you listed (plus others, such as having a resource drain/s in Combat Metrics that's substantially higher than regen/s) are not acceptable. If there's a guild that accepts those kinds of parses in their application, then that guild's leadership doesn't know what they're doing.SmellyUnlimited wrote: »By that logic, Magicka then should get pierce only, same as stam. Stam has to heavy attack to get resources, but somehow Mag gets a pass?
Because that's what they do in an actual trial. After Morrowind, if you watch stamina DPS in trials, they don't even slot a spammable like Rapid Strikes. It's Heavy Attack > DoT > Heavy Attack > DoT. Sure, there are heavy-attack magicka builds, but there are a lot more light-attack magicka builds than there are light-attack stamina builds. That's just the nature of how the game is played right now. Dummy parsing is merely a reflection of that.
BTW, before Morrowind killed light-attack-spammable builds, it was pretty common for stamina DPS to get shards in parses. And if a healer threw them shards now, that would still be acceptable. Just that nobody bothers to because they don't need it.
Well, maybe I'm just out of the loop, but I think the heavy attack/DoT stam rotation is limited to stamDKs.
Stamblades do a ton of light attacks and use Surprise Attack.
Stamsorcs and stamplars use Shrouded Daggers (or maybe Jabs for the latter) and mix lights/heavies.Edited by LiquidPony on January 19, 2018 4:17PM0 -
SmellyUnlimited✭✭✭✭It is a guilds choice how they will handle dps tests and what will be required. They can pass their own test and if they require you to pass it to join them or to raid with them then you have only one choice Pass it or go somewhere else.
Further, as Code pointed out, guilds tend to have different requirements for magicka and stam. Sometimes different requirements for each class as well.
This thread will do absolutely nothing to change their choice so it serves zero purpose. BTW, many guilds setup the tests based on what they can do and often lower the requirements some from their level.
Well, your first point was blatantly obvious. Since you seemed to have missed it, my point was that quite a few guilds do this, and as I pointed out, I was honestly asking why the disparity.
Your second point is useless. How many posts “serve zero purpose”?
Since the introduction of test dummy’s, that’s become the new standard for parsing, so there thus should be a standard for what is required. My inquiry was why was this current setup standard, and if not, what should it be? Quite a few people, across multiple guilds, just said “that’s how it’s done.” There may be a number of guild leaders that are reading this that’s give more consideration to how they parse.
Perhaps try not to rudely attack an inquiry just because you don’t agree with it.
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SmellyUnlimited✭✭✭✭
Is that so? Last time i checked there was more to ESO than just trials.Nobody cares about your rotation and bars for solo parsing.
Yes, some of us change rotation (gasp, the horror!) when switching from solo to trial runs.
If i can't get decent DPS solo, what kind of player does that make me?
One learns a lot when soloing hard content where you have to do everything yourself.
IMHO, it also makes you a better group player.
But who cares about dummy parses for solo content? Nobody asks for a test before you can go solo a dungeon because, well, it's solo. You can whack on a dummy for practice and for your own purposes, and there are no rules or whatever about how you do those kinds of tests.
Dummy parsing rules exist only for parses where you are comparing your performance against that of another person or a set benchmark, and for those parses to be comparable in a meaningful way, rules are needed to standardize the test parameters. But these kinds of tests are generally used for things like guild applications, which means trials
Not doing trials? That's okay. Just soloing content? That's fine. If you're just hitting a dummy for your own sake, then these kinds of rules aren't even applicable or relevant in the first place.
The OP is complaining about the standards set for dummy parsing, and those standards exist and are relevant only for the sake of a certain area of gameplay. That's why we "don't care" about solo parses. Not because they're somehow irrelevant in general, but because they are irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Agreed! You stated it much better than I could.DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)0 -
SmellyUnlimited✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »My guild wants self ele... guess it depends on the ones asking.
There are so many theory crafters that mathematically determine which rotation results in the highest dps output (ie. what to weave, when to switch, etc.)
I’m wondering why there’s isnt a standard for trials dps tests (which make up the lion share of what a guild tests for), when there seems to be “BiS” and standard for everything else.
Example of standards that are almost fanatically imposed:
Healer - SPC/worm, mending
Tank - Ebon/Alkosh, Torug
On a complete side note - We shouldn’t be given stats and then not have a reference for their values. Perhaps on PC you have this, or maybe it’s through add-on’s, but our character sheets show neither how much penetration, increased crit damage, or armor mitigation %. Seems very lazy to have standard stats that players rely on, but no way to see that value beyond going through the motions to add it all up. This would benefit everyone, and better show where your strengths are, and what you need to improve. It’s sad that dps dummy’s were added to the game, but outside of an add on, can’t show your abilities damage hierarchy during the test.DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)3 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SmellyUnlimited wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »My guild wants self ele... guess it depends on the ones asking.
There are so many theory crafters that mathematically determine which rotation results in the highest dps output (ie. what to weave, when to switch, etc.)
I’m wondering why there’s isnt a standard for trials dps tests (which make up the lion share of what a guild tests for), when there seems to be “BiS” and standard for everything else.
Example of standards that are almost fanatically imposed:
Healer - SPC/worm, mending
Tank - Ebon/Alkosh, Torug
On a complete side note - We shouldn’t be given stats and then not have a reference for their values. Perhaps on PC you have this, or maybe it’s through add-on’s, but our character sheets show neither how much penetration, increased crit damage, or armor mitigation %. Seems very lazy to have standard stats that players rely on, but no way to see that value beyond going through the motions to add it all up. This would benefit everyone, and better show where your strengths are, and what you need to improve. It’s sad that dps dummy’s were added to the game, but outside of an add on, can’t show your abilities damage hierarchy during the test.
Some addons have this feature, but I can't recommend any. I just count
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LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SmellyUnlimited wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »My guild wants self ele... guess it depends on the ones asking.
There are so many theory crafters that mathematically determine which rotation results in the highest dps output (ie. what to weave, when to switch, etc.)
I’m wondering why there’s isnt a standard for trials dps tests (which make up the lion share of what a guild tests for), when there seems to be “BiS” and standard for everything else.
Example of standards that are almost fanatically imposed:
Healer - SPC/worm, mending
Tank - Ebon/Alkosh, Torug
On a complete side note - We shouldn’t be given stats and then not have a reference for their values. Perhaps on PC you have this, or maybe it’s through add-on’s, but our character sheets show neither how much penetration, increased crit damage, or armor mitigation %. Seems very lazy to have standard stats that players rely on, but no way to see that value beyond going through the motions to add it all up. This would benefit everyone, and better show where your strengths are, and what you need to improve. It’s sad that dps dummy’s were added to the game, but outside of an add on, can’t show your abilities damage hierarchy during the test.
Yeah, we really do need a sort of Combat Metrics thing built in to the game, and we should get DPS reports on real PvE boss fights if we want, too.
The target skeletons are great and all but ZOS could not have put together a more bare-bones design if they tried. We've literally got the minimum viable product here.3 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »... a self-buffed test will be the worst-case scenario, meaning the numbers will likely go up in a trial setting ...
Somebody gets it ...
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »My guild wants self ele... guess it depends on the ones asking.
And that's fine if it's consistent for everyone in your guild since the test only matters for that guild. Though I would think they'd want to see you using your actual rotation there really isn't an issue since again, it's just for that guild and what they want to see.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As stated, all trials have major breach/fracture up 100% of the time. Those should always be present on a dummy parse. Simulating a raid environment as much as possible is always a good goal if you want to be able to use a dummy to compare setups.
The fundamental difference with the sustain you mentioned is as follows: I can sustain a trial based stamina rotation on a dummy without assistance. For magic, that is impossible for most builds.
The real goal of a DPS check for a trial guild is not to see if you can cheese a parse, its to see if your sustainable trial rotation is above a certain DPS threshold. With stamina, you dont (or at least you shouldnt) need any extra resource on a dummy to run your trial rotation. On magic, if you dont have ele drain for breach and magic steal (worm is a bit unusal for parsing), you will have to run a fundamentally different rotation from what you plan to run in a raid. It makes no sense to test that.
TLDR: Stamina sustain is much better than magic sustain from a PVE DPS perspective. As long as both get breach/fracture, things like worm and magic steel dont direclty affect your DPS potential, they just ensure that you can run the same rotation you plan to take into trials.0 -
pod88kk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Most people in my guild uses them mainly to practice rotations more so than actually testing dps. Obviously the numbers are a good indicator of what's working & what's not but yeah I do I a free that they can be cheesed0 -
itsfatbass✭✭✭✭✭Our guild does not allow any assistance with a dummy parse, your own buffs are all you get. I've literally never heard of someone running worm cult for a dummy test though, ele drain at best.~PC/NA~ Magblade, Tankanist, Healplar, Stamcro, Oakensorc, Healden, Tanknight ~PLUR~0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jphipps85b14_ESO1 wrote: »Our guild does not allow any assistance with a dummy parse, your own buffs are all you get. I've literally never heard of someone running worm cult for a dummy test though, ele drain at best.
@jphipps85b14_ESO1
The problem with that approach is that certain classes and builds are better setup to handle a dummy. Take stam DK and stam Sorc. In a raid, DKs are a bit ahead of sorc for single target, and a bit behind on AOE. On a dummy they are way ahead. Why? DKs get major breach through noxious breath. Same goes for NB, who not only gets access to major breach, but also has no stamina issues with light attack 100% due to siphoning strikes, and why stam NBs can explode a 3 million health dummy better than anyone.
You can have similar problems on magic. My magic sorc on a heavy attack build can run elemental susceptibility in place of a shield (dont need the sustain from magic steal), so I can cast it at the beginning of a rotation pre-fight and get all of the benefits of the debuff (dont need the magic return) with no drawbacks as I dont actually need to cast it in a fight. The class also has a natural source of concussion, which really helps your off balance up time when solo, which is a huge damage boost. Compare that to my magic NB, where I need to run my own elemental drain AND keep it up as part of a complex rotation which is absolutely a DPS loss. If you just looked at dummy parses, you would think that my 43k Sorc parse is better than my 40k dummy parse, but get in a raid and realize the mNB is far superior for damage.
The point is that if you give absolutely no assistance, then you will see bigger gaps based on class and build than actually exist in a raid. You are better off trying to be consistent with the buffs you give to people accross the board. IMO, you should always test with major breach/fracture and magika steal. All of those will be in a raid anyway.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on January 19, 2018 10:14PM2 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭You shouldn't be using Pierce Armor for Major Fracture in a test. Mark Target provides the same debuff without the slightest amount of additional damage. Unless you think that somehow NB's are impossibly rare to find?Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
SmellyUnlimited✭✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »You shouldn't be using Pierce Armor for Major Fracture in a test. Mark Target provides the same debuff without the slightest amount of additional damage. Unless you think that somehow NB's are impossibly rare to find?
The damage that pierce adds is completely inconsequential. Not to mention, if all stam are pierce, then it’s moot. A lot easier to find a pierce that many classes can have than finding a NB.
That makes sense about the Magicka rotation being hard to sustain. Though where it becomes unrealistic is doing that same rotation with stam in a trial that you had performed on the dummy. With only the single pool of resources for all blocking, attacking, dodging, and sprinting, stamina can get pretty low. Take VAS as an example. And yes, I have run it with stam and did fine (don’t understand the die hard Magicka mentality with that trial.). That last fight especially, I’m dodging, blocking, sprinting to get to him for those short dps windows. This is also fairly true for VHR (moreso HM). Blocking/dodging/bashing. That one pool starts looking awfully shallow after a while.DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭SmellyUnlimited wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »You shouldn't be using Pierce Armor for Major Fracture in a test. Mark Target provides the same debuff without the slightest amount of additional damage. Unless you think that somehow NB's are impossibly rare to find?
The damage that pierce adds is completely inconsequential. Not to mention, if all stam are pierce, then it’s moot. A lot easier to find a pierce that many classes can have than finding a NB.
That makes sense about the Magicka rotation being hard to sustain. Though where it becomes unrealistic is doing that same rotation with stam in a trial that you had performed on the dummy. With only the single pool of resources for all blocking, attacking, dodging, and sprinting, stamina can get pretty low. Take VAS as an example. And yes, I have run it with stam and did fine (don’t understand the die hard Magicka mentality with that trial.). That last fight especially, I’m dodging, blocking, sprinting to get to him for those short dps windows. This is also fairly true for VHR (moreso HM). Blocking/dodging/bashing. That one pool starts looking awfully shallow after a while.
LMAO yes because NB are so hard to find.
Yes the damage is inconsequential on the whole, but can be the difference between getting to an execute or getting a kill 1 second sooner. Even more so if the Tank happens to have crusher enchant. This is akin to arguing that straitening a stack of papers is inconsequential to cleaning a room, even though it requires zero effort and does have a small effect.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
malicia✭✭✭✭In the social guild I'm in we keep it simple: 18k DPS required for both magica and stamina. A tank can Pierce Armor for you, and a healer can Ele Drain for you.
Reason: in most boss fights in trials a tank will use Pierce Armor, and the healers will use Ele Drain. As we're casual players our trial group vastly differs from week to week, so we're not going to optimize for a specific team of people. So our target dummy requirement is simply set for what we are very confident will be present in most trials.
Yes, some of our healers have the Masters Resto staff. Others don't, so there's no guarantee that it will be in the trial. If we allow it in the DPS parse, but then not have it present in the trial, we effectively create a false testing environment. The DPS test isn't a good indicator of performance as is, so there's no reason to make it worse by introducing elements that you can't guarantee.
In a dedicated trial group where you'll have the same people from week to week you can optimize. There you'll be able to test with a Masters Resto if you have one in your group, and your DDs can optimize their builds to fit into your raiding environment. But, that's a much more finely tuned group. As our group isn't so constant/stable, we can't tune as fine.
PC, EU
Not elite, not the best. Just enjoying ESO.
Not the worst either. "Casual" != "totally ignorant"
@taciti0 -
Tinus_92✭✭✭DPS tests should serve as an indication, nothing more, nothing less. I've been in enough groups who outperform me (magplar) with their stamina setups by 10k on dummys, but while going to trials my contribution of the total dps, even on bosses, goes up to 14-15%. Learning mechanics and be able to survive is even more important. Parses on trial group bosses, where everyone got more or less the same situation, do matter much more imo. Even then there are still differences between melee and ranged which should be brought into account.Edited by Tinus_92 on January 20, 2018 5:21PMIngame ID: @Suni_921 -
SmellyUnlimited✭✭✭✭DPS tests should serve as an indication, nothing more, nothing less. I've been in enough groups who outperform me (magplar) with their stamina setups by 10k on dummys, but while going to trials my contribution of the total dps, even on bosses, goes up to 14-15%. Learning mechanics and be able to survive is even more important. Parses on trial group bosses, where everyone got more or less the same situation, do matter much more imo. Even then there are still differences between melee and ranged which should be brought into account.
Wholeheartedly agree. The absolute optimal situation would be that as the test; how much dps did person A contribute. But for an important exception: is that person using a utility set for all melee dps (sunder, morag, NMG, War Machine), or are they built for pure dps and benefit the most from that utility?
It would be great to have the ability to see individual parses during an actual trials boss, but it might further be muddied when someone is contributing more to then team in other ways (res’ing, utility sets, etc).
DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)0 -
SASQUATCH0✭✭✭✭People here saying using TFS is cheesing the parse? How else am I supposed to get the penetration I would get from group buffs in a trial, in a solo test?Edited by SASQUATCH0 on January 21, 2018 6:38AM0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've always run target dummies as solo-self buffed
But this isn’t accurate especially between classes because some do have innate access to fracture built into their rotation like DKs. So if you’re a stam sorc, you’re probably going to come in lower since major brutality can be had from a pot.1 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭L2P issue
DW heavy attacks are much faster anywaysFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SmellyUnlimited wrote: »
Well duh ...SmellyUnlimited wrote: »DPS Tests are wildly biased
My epeen is small enough that i always only list my SOLO DPS, and by SOLO i actually mean SOLO, not me hitting the dummy while someone else provides buffs/debuffs.
SOLO DPS as in, i'm there all lonely and sad, blaming that wretched dummy for all my misery while i hack it to pieces.
You're missing the point. The reason why those buffs are provided is because a big part about dummy parses is seeing if someone has a good rotation. If a DPS needs to provide their own Ele, then (1) that alters their bar setup and (2) that alters their rotation. If they just run without Ele, then they'll need to heavy attack more which again changes their rotation.
As for stamina DPS, due to the amount of heavy attacks they have, they should be able to sustain without Master springs, so the lack of that sustain would not change what they do.
By that logic, Magicka then should get pierce only, same as stam. Stam has to heavy attack to get resources, but somehow Mag gets a pass? Yeah, in a perfect world Stam wouldn’t have to heavy attack either. It is entirely for resource gain, the damage/ult building is much more efficient if you can afford to just light attack. Even with Bound Armaments/Igneous, heavy attacking will not outparse the increases ultimate usage damage. But that’s what Stam has to do....well....because not doing it means less resources, and that would (gasp) change our rotation.
1. Stamina have much faster heavy attacks from dual wield then magicka from staffs
2. Stamina have always base costs of abilities cheaper then their magicka counterparts.
3. Heavy attacking on stamina in group enviroment is not only for resource gain. Heavy attacks done to off-ballanced targets deal 70% more dmg so stamina DD's in trials benefits a lot from it because they have faster heavy attacks so can put more of them in 1 rotation.
4. Isnt that supprising then on trials stamina DD's can pull up to 10-15k more single target DPS them magicka ones ?
5. L2P. From Your previous posts it looks like You have really no idea what You're talking about.Edited by Juhasow on January 21, 2018 1:08AM0 -
XiDiabolismiX✭✭✭SASQUATCH0 wrote: »People here saying using TFS is cheesing the parse? How else am I supposed to get the penetration I would get from group buffs in a trial?
It's a cheese because you're getting a boost in penetration. In a raid parse with group buffs you would most likely overpenetrate the target, thus lowering your overall dps. If you replaced it with a set like hundings/automatons, the extra weapon damage would give you higher dps.
I can say I pull 45k dps on my stam dk solo parse with full pen sets, but hit 50k raid parse with that same setup.
Whereas if I solo parse in raid setup, I'd only hit 40k self buffed but pull 60k+ in a raid scenario. It's all about optimization. Unless of course you're just trying to hit as high as you can solo and that's it, then cheese away, but I'd never put you in any of my groups with that setup.2 -
SASQUATCH0✭✭✭✭XiDiabolismiX wrote: »SASQUATCH0 wrote: »People here saying using TFS is cheesing the parse? How else am I supposed to get the penetration I would get from group buffs in a trial?
It's a cheese because you're getting a boost in penetration. In a raid parse with group buffs you would most likely overpenetrate the target, thus lowering your overall dps. If you replaced it with a set like hundings/automatons, the extra weapon damage would give you higher dps.
I can say I pull 45k dps on my stam dk solo parse with full pen sets, but hit 50k raid parse with that same setup.
Whereas if I solo parse in raid setup, I'd only hit 40k self buffed but pull 60k+ in a raid scenario. It's all about optimization. Unless of course you're just trying to hit as high as you can solo and that's it, then cheese away, but I'd never put you in any of my groups with that setup.
I meant how else would I get the penetration I would get from group buffs in solo dummy parse. Obviously wouldn’t wear tfs in a trial tfEdited by SASQUATCH0 on January 21, 2018 6:37AM0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SASQUATCH0 wrote: »XiDiabolismiX wrote: »SASQUATCH0 wrote: »People here saying using TFS is cheesing the parse? How else am I supposed to get the penetration I would get from group buffs in a trial?
It's a cheese because you're getting a boost in penetration. In a raid parse with group buffs you would most likely overpenetrate the target, thus lowering your overall dps. If you replaced it with a set like hundings/automatons, the extra weapon damage would give you higher dps.
I can say I pull 45k dps on my stam dk solo parse with full pen sets, but hit 50k raid parse with that same setup.
Whereas if I solo parse in raid setup, I'd only hit 40k self buffed but pull 60k+ in a raid scenario. It's all about optimization. Unless of course you're just trying to hit as high as you can solo and that's it, then cheese away, but I'd never put you in any of my groups with that setup.
I meant how else would I get the penetration I would get from group buffs in solo dummy parse. Obviously wouldn’t wear tfs in a trial tf
But why do you need the penetration you would get in a Trial?
You're not getting the crit damage you get in a Trial, or the weapon damage, or the max stats, or the sustain, or anything else. So why penetration?
It's because that's the most effective way to boost DPS, so stacking pen on the solo parse makes for the biggest, shiniest numbers.
But what's the point? Why swap to totally different gear/Mundus/CP than you'd actually run in a Trial just to get bigger numbers on the solo parse? Seems like a waste of time and money in pursuit of big e-peen to me.
I like to see people testing with their normal setups. That way there's an easy baseline to work from.Edited by LiquidPony on January 21, 2018 9:45PM3
