We should only be charged if we want to buy extra outfit slots, having a per-use cost is ridiculous and unlike any of the previous cosmetic systems. It's especially ridiculous for ESO+ members given that ZOS-sponsored thread asking for ideas about how to make ESO+ better, the one where an overwhelming number of responses asked for an outfit system like this.

redspecter23 wrote: »

My thought is that they have to charge gold for monetary reasons. If you could flip your outfit at will then you have no reason to buy extra outfit slots. I don't agree with the concept at all, but this is likely the reason that ZOS is charging for the change. I'm sure an addon could be created to save outfit loadouts and swap them with a button press at the station. Having the gold cost creates a reason to buy more slots.

@redspecter23

This is faulty reasoning though. It's still entirely worthwhile to buy extra outfit slots since it lets you change out in the field, miles away from an outfit station, and it also lets you save favorite outfits instead of having to dig through your giant motif collection to find every individual piece. I'm totally buying at least one outfit on my main and the stam warden copy of my main that will let me change into my "since launch" outfit, which is a combination of basic racial styles that has never stopped looking good on my character.

Edit : FURTHERMORE you don't save any gold whatsoever by buying extra outfit slots as you have to pay to set them to a new style also. If you're changing up your outfit frequently then extra outfit slots don't save you gold. They are purely fore the aforementioned convenience factors.

there most likely needed to be a universal cost for dying the Outfits because of the way the system is coded to recognize costumes.. as eso+ we get free COSTUME dying. Yes, technically these are another "Costume" and not a true transmogrification, but there had to be something to set them apart from our costumes in the programming and so that folks had to make some sort of investment to make the extra outfit slots a desirable item. We still don't pay for actual costume dying or for dying our actual armor. the fees are restricted to the new outfits only. Personally i don't think this is a big deal. complaining about having to spend a little gold on this feature is like the non-eso+ folks complaining that they should have to subscribe or spend crowns for the one time use dye packs to change their costumes like we do. we should be happy we have the option to use gold considering what other hoops ZOS could have decided to make us jump through imho.

Also, isn't there some discussion going on about how we can get the tokens besides buying them in crown store? Aren't they supposed to be added to rewards or something too? That would make it much more fair. if we can get an occasional token through leveling rewards or daily rewards like we get transmogrification stones.

I'm sure part of this wasn't just for money grab on the new outfit slots but also to balance the crafting and costume sales too. Think about it- if we could do the customized outfits for free whenever we felt like it, the costume system and caring about how your normal armor looks would almost completely fall by the wayside then too. It may not be the best way to have gone about it, but it feels more like an attempt to balance the over all Style system in the game some, not just a money grab on short term outfit slot sales.

They just want a gold sink. It is that simple.

Recremen wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

They just want a gold sink. It is that simple.

@lordrichter

How could that possibly be the case? Is the in-game economy suffering? By what metric? Is there a reason the in-game economy is about to suffer due to something in the new patch? I don't see it. Prices of goods on PC NA have been falling if anyhting, we're not getting any kind of problematic inflation. When it comes down to it, we already have enough to spend gold on from NPC vendors. We clearly don't need a new gold sink.

They probably have some query they run that shows that the average player is Scrooge McDuck. Maybe they think people use the Dye Stations too much and want to curb frequent changes of Outfits. Maybe they were blocked from using Gold for the Housing Storage and this is how they make up for it. Maybe they are just being sadistic. Ok, maybe not that last one.

I am 1000% against charging any gold to dye anything. Honestly, I think it is an ill-conceived idea just because that is not how the Dye Station works today and there is really no reason to make the game inconsistent that way.

I am pretty sure that they are both determined and stubborn about the idea. If they weren't completely committed to charging gold to dye our outfits, it would not be in the game. They already discussed this, hashed it out, and decided this. They already know the current players won't like the idea, and they already know that the future players won't care either way. All that remains is the final discussion about how much they charge.

Now, on the other hand, I am not against charging gold for the STYLE since they are tossing out the need for the style material. There is no established precedent for FREE styles. They cost something today at crafting stations. They should cost something at Outfit stations.

I would rather they drop the DYE cost and increase the STYLE cost.

Actually, I would rather they use STYLE MATERIAL for outfits, or Mimic Stones, and drop all of the gold charges. They can drop the outfit tokens and completely reuse what "currency" they have in the game today. That is the elegant solution. However, if they are set on a gold sink, does not meet requirements.

lordrichter wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

They just want a gold sink. It is that simple.

@lordrichter

How could that possibly be the case? Is the in-game economy suffering? By what metric? Is there a reason the in-game economy is about to suffer due to something in the new patch? I don't see it. Prices of goods on PC NA have been falling if anyhting, we're not getting any kind of problematic inflation. When it comes down to it, we already have enough to spend gold on from NPC vendors. We clearly don't need a new gold sink.

They probably have some query they run that shows that the average player is Scrooge McDuck. Maybe they think people use the Dye Stations too much and want to curb frequent changes of Outfits. Maybe they were blocked from using Gold for the Housing Storage and this is how they make up for it. Maybe they are just being sadistic. Ok, maybe not that last one.

I am 1000% against charging any gold to dye anything. Honestly, I think it is an ill-conceived idea just because that is not how the Dye Station works today and there is really no reason to make the game inconsistent that way.

I am pretty sure that they are both determined and stubborn about the idea. If they weren't completely committed to charging gold to dye our outfits, it would not be in the game. They already discussed this, hashed it out, and decided this. They already know the current players won't like the idea, and they already know that the future players won't care either way. All that remains is the final discussion about how much they charge.

Now, on the other hand, I am not against charging gold for the STYLE since they are tossing out the need for the style material. There is no established precedent for FREE styles. They cost something today at crafting stations. They should cost something at Outfit stations.

I would rather they drop the DYE cost and increase the STYLE cost.

Actually, I would rather they use STYLE MATERIAL for outfits, or Mimic Stones, and drop all of the gold charges. They can drop the outfit tokens and completely reuse what "currency" they have in the game today. That is the elegant solution. However, if they are set on a gold sink, does not meet requirements.

@lordrichter

I don't think it's useless to complain about the gold cost for dyeing. Just because they've talked about and developed the code to charge gold doesn't mean they won't abandon it if it turns out to be too onerous for the community. Remember when people wanted a Cyrodiil campaign with Imperial City lock? And how it got completely unused and they just kind of sunk the cost of setting that server up? Devs have to sink features all the time. You don't need to accept things the way they are.

As for style stones, I still don't see the logic behind that. We weren't using style stones to begin with. People weren't crafting much gear and sure as heck weren't changing their outfits all the time. That's the whole point of the outfit system. The real elegant solution is to do what they've done with every other cosmetic system to date : charge a single up-front cost, then make it free to change as much as you want. That's what we had with dyes, what we have with costumes and hats and body markings, etc. And it turns out if we've spent the time to get the motifs in the first place, that meets the requirements of an up-front cost from the get-go. Making the system more convoluted by having it be based on sacrificing style materials is just as ludicrous as making us buy costume vouchers in order to wear the costumes we already bought.

Think of it this way : each outfit piece is unlocked in the Collectibles tab, just like all the other cosmetics (except dyes but that was pre-collectibles and has its own stable, working system that doesn't need to be messed with). If we have it unlocked, you can think of it as having that outfit "made" or whatever, like how costumes don't need to get made again every time you put them on. You own it, it's in your magickal fantasy cat closet. It's done. SImilarly, if you have an outfit piece unlocked, you should "own it" in the same manner. Put it in your cat closet, we're done.

If they do end up going with any kind of additional cost just to use the things we've already payed for, in many cases with real-world cash, then it should at most be another single one-time cost. We shouldn't get nickel and dimed to utilize a system we have already monetarily supported and otherwise bought into. We don't need any new continuous investment, we are already going to keep collecting or buying motifs. We don't need new gold sinks, we already have ones that work perfectly fine, as demonstrated by the completely-functioning economy.

Many style materials need a new use, sure, but trying to shoehorn it into the outfit system is bad. We should be moving away from per-use costs, not trying to come up with new ones. We need a fundamental upheaval for how this is getting delivered, not a new, clunkier way to limit aesthetic experimentation.

I am a bit confused as to whom the money goes to when I change an outfit or dye. Is there a coin slot on the dye station now, are we giving this money to the invisible tailor that is helping us with our new outfit? It really makes no sense what so ever. At least with the other materials you are putting them into the process, some ruby ash, a stone for the style, even the transmutation stones go into the machine to make it work, in this case we are what, chucking the money on the ground or out the window of our house?

Recremen wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

They just want a gold sink. It is that simple.

@lordrichter

How could that possibly be the case? Is the in-game economy suffering? By what metric? Is there a reason the in-game economy is about to suffer due to something in the new patch? I don't see it. Prices of goods on PC NA have been falling if anyhting, we're not getting any kind of problematic inflation. When it comes down to it, we already have enough to spend gold on from NPC vendors. We clearly don't need a new gold sink.

Recremen wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

They just want a gold sink. It is that simple.

@lordrichter

How could that possibly be the case? Is the in-game economy suffering? By what metric? Is there a reason the in-game economy is about to suffer due to something in the new patch? I don't see it. Prices of goods on PC NA have been falling if anyhting, we're not getting any kind of problematic inflation. When it comes down to it, we already have enough to spend gold on from NPC vendors. We clearly don't need a new gold sink.

Someone put up within the last few days asking how much gold people have. It was broken down into several layers, but the top tier being 2 million gold or more. And, it had the largest response with 35% of the people responding. If we can see those numbers, then I’m sure ZOS can see that as well.

Recremen wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

They just want a gold sink. It is that simple.

@lordrichter

How could that possibly be the case? Is the in-game economy suffering? By what metric? Is there a reason the in-game economy is about to suffer due to something in the new patch? I don't see it. Prices of goods on PC NA have been falling if anyhting, we're not getting any kind of problematic inflation. When it comes down to it, we already have enough to spend gold on from NPC vendors. We clearly don't need a new gold sink.

Someone put up within the last few days asking how much gold people have. It was broken down into several layers, but the top tier being 2 million gold or more. And, it had the largest response with 35% of the people responding. If we can see those numbers, then I’m sure ZOS can see that as well.

The point being?

People with lots of unspent gold are an incentive for developers to find something to spend it on so as to help remove it from the game. Gold sinks.

Recremen wrote: »

No that part's obvious, I was more questioning why a non-private forum poll was being used as evidence of a need for more gold sinks. People are less likely to respond if it's public and about their finances, less likely to respond if they're on the negative end, and more likely to respond if they're on the positive end. Not to mention that it's hitting the forum crowd, which is a major selection bias towards highly-invested players.

It's also a pretty bad metric in other ways. Some people are just saving up hoping to dump on new houses, or old motifs they haven't gotten yet. I have over 700k right now but that's simply because it's not even enough to finish ONE motif book I'm missing, let alone the other three (dungeon motif so expensive). Then there are the folks that just like having a ton of gold because it makes them feel good. These people have plenty to spend on, but don't. That doesn't mean we need more gold sinks, it means they're indecisive about what to spend on for the existing ones.

When the poll is all that there is, what can we do? It is not like ZOS is going to roll in here and start explaining themselves.

redspecter23 wrote: »

My thought is that they have to charge gold for monetary reasons. If you could flip your outfit at will then you have no reason to buy extra outfit slots. I don't agree with the concept at all, but this is likely the reason that ZOS is charging for the change. I'm sure an addon could be created to save outfit loadouts and swap them with a button press at the station. Having the gold cost creates a reason to buy more slots.

^ This and...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]You can freely preview as many changes to your outfits as you like, and will only be charged when you finalize your choices. You can also purchase Outfit Change Tokens from the Crown Store, which allow you to completely bypass the gold cost of an outfit change. You can always choose whether to use gold or Outfit Change Tokens when finalizing your selections.

Between additional outfit slots and outfit change tokens, this will sell crowns.

Doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. This game dumps gold into your lap for just for playing it. Unless you're just spending money on every shiny little thing that catches your eye, you will inevitably accumulate wealth. Not saying we need a gold sink or that I'm happy to pay, but paying a few thousand gold isn't the end of the world to me. Then again I don't dye my gear every other day.

Ley wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

My thought is that they have to charge gold for monetary reasons. If you could flip your outfit at will then you have no reason to buy extra outfit slots. I don't agree with the concept at all, but this is likely the reason that ZOS is charging for the change. I'm sure an addon could be created to save outfit loadouts and swap them with a button press at the station. Having the gold cost creates a reason to buy more slots.

^ This and...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]You can freely preview as many changes to your outfits as you like, and will only be charged when you finalize your choices. You can also purchase Outfit Change Tokens from the Crown Store, which allow you to completely bypass the gold cost of an outfit change. You can always choose whether to use gold or Outfit Change Tokens when finalizing your selections.

Between additional outfit slots and outfit change tokens, this will sell crowns.

Doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. This game dumps gold into your lap for just for playing it. Unless you're just spending money on every shiny little thing that catches your eye, you will inevitably accumulate wealth. Not saying we need a gold sink or that I'm happy to pay, but paying a few thousand gold isn't the end of the world to me. Then again I don't dye my gear every other day.

@Ley

That's the point, though, this disproportionately affects the people who have been clamoring for this system the most. We like to change our dyes every day, put on a new costume (which is all we can do in this Outfitless meta on live), etc. We are highly invested, spending countless hours gathering motifs, or the gold to buy them, or the dollars for the cash shop versions. Having a per-use cost is incredibly discouraging when all the other cosmetic systems to date have been up-front cost only. Now we're getting double-dipped on and it's ludicrous.

I don't mind, and indeed plan on, paying for extra outfit slots. Those provide a unique use value. If they're going to monetize this system, it should be through that, more cash shop motifs, and eventually cash shop unique skins (beyond the cash-shop-exclusive motifs they've already come out with).

lordrichter wrote: »

They just want a gold sink. It is that simple.

we don't need another gold sink... or time sink (see crafting research).

Recremen wrote: »

@Ley

That's the point, though, this disproportionately affects the people who have been clamoring for this system the most. We like to change our dyes every day, put on a new costume (which is all we can do in this Outfitless meta on live), etc. We are highly invested, spending countless hours gathering motifs, or the gold to buy them, or the dollars for the cash shop versions. Having a per-use cost is incredibly discouraging when all the other cosmetic systems to date have been up-front cost only. Now we're getting double-dipped on and it's ludicrous.

I don't mind, and indeed plan on, paying for extra outfit slots. Those provide a unique use value. If they're going to monetize this system, it should be through that, more cash shop motifs, and eventually cash shop unique skins (beyond the cash-shop-exclusive motifs they've already come out with).

@Recremen

I understand your plight and it is a reasonable concern; it just won't effect me as much. I was mostly trying to point out to the people who seem to be confused about this, that it seems pretty obvious that ZOS made the change to increase crown sales.

Is the cost to dye your gear separate from the cost to craft an outfit? Meaning once you've payed to craft a costume, do you have to pay for the entire costume every time you dye it or just for the dye?

Also do we know the price ranges to dye gear? (ex. head costs 500-1000 gold to dye depending on color, 1-200, or 5-5000)

Recremen wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

@Ley

That's the point, though, this disproportionately affects the people who have been clamoring for this system the most. We like to change our dyes every day, put on a new costume (which is all we can do in this Outfitless meta on live), etc. We are highly invested, spending countless hours gathering motifs, or the gold to buy them, or the dollars for the cash shop versions. Having a per-use cost is incredibly discouraging when all the other cosmetic systems to date have been up-front cost only. Now we're getting double-dipped on and it's ludicrous.

I don't mind, and indeed plan on, paying for extra outfit slots. Those provide a unique use value. If they're going to monetize this system, it should be through that, more cash shop motifs, and eventually cash shop unique skins (beyond the cash-shop-exclusive motifs they've already come out with).

@Recremen

I understand your plight and it is a reasonable concern; it just won't effect me as much. I was mostly trying to point out to the people who seem to be confused about this, that it seems pretty obvious that ZOS made the change to increase crown sales.

Is the cost to dye your gear separate from the cost to craft an outfit? Meaning once you've payed to craft a costume, do you have to pay for the entire costume every time you dye it or just for the dye?

Also do we know the price ranges to dye gear? (ex. head costs 500-1000 gold to dye depending on color, 1-200, or 5-5000)

The costs are separated and stacking, so you only need to pay the dye fee if you're just dyeing, but you need to pay both the dye and the style change fee if you're doing both. It's 50 gold per armor piece and I think 250 for weapons and shields, which isn't much but adds up quickly. Meanwhile you change your equipment style and it can add up to over 30k. It is ridiculous.

So if nothing changes and those numbers are correct, it would be 850 to dye all your gear. That's not too bad. Significantly less than I pay for repairs several times a day. Hopefully it doesn't increase because it could be way worse. I was expecting several thousand to dye all your gear or even tens of thousands for rare dyes.