moved

DoctorESO · January 2018

moved

ToRelax · January 2018

Pointless power creep leading to periodical nerfs. Can't even argue it keeps players engaged via progression, because anyone above the cap never actually gets to spend CP after earning them.

pauli133 · January 2018

It's managed power creep. Just enough to keep (some) end game players from leaving, not enough to wreck balance.

coop500 · January 2018

Hmm... good point on both ends, frankly I land in the side of the guy wanting to catch up eventually (but not mindlessly grinding to get there.)

But I would understand why endgame players would get bored if they don't have anything to do.

Frankly it's a catch 22 I don't have a real answer for, except maybe make more harder content for these endgame players to do. Like the Maelstrom arena (probably spelled that wrong) but even harder, or a new tier of vet dungeons, like... Champion dungeons? That will give endplayers a new thing to aim for and a reason to increase the cap, so the little guys can aim for vet dungeons still and not be surrounded by endgame players the whole way.

I'm sure there's holes in that idea, but that's my two cents on the matter.

ToRelax · January 2018

pauli133 wrote: »

It's managed power creep. Just enough to keep (some) end game players from leaving, not enough to wreck balance.

Not enough to wreck balance? What were the sustain changes in Morrowind all about then?

Smmokkee · January 2018

I wish it was capped at 300.

pauli133 · January 2018

ToRelax wrote: »

pauli133 wrote: »

It's managed power creep. Just enough to keep (some) end game players from leaving, not enough to wreck balance.

Not enough to wreck balance? What were the sustain changes in Morrowind all about then?

Orthogonal issues. The reworking of the constellations was separate from, though coincident with, the rise in CP cap.

One might observe a lack of similar changes at other CP cap increase events.

Thalmor-Nordmaster · January 2018

Zenimax put themselves in a tough spot here. From what we have seen so far after x amount of cap raises they will have to make constellation adjustments.

If they decide to remove CP it will be a major headache what is certain is that uncertainty in builds and their longevity will be continual in the players' mind.

From now on I am going to give any gold tempers and such away to whoever asks first. Will stick with purple gear. I would like to keep some gold gear in use for at least a year before it is outdated. And since that will not happen due to the continuous data-driven changes related to CP "balancing" Purple is just less stressful

ToRelax · January 2018

pauli133 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

pauli133 wrote: »

It's managed power creep. Just enough to keep (some) end game players from leaving, not enough to wreck balance.

Not enough to wreck balance? What were the sustain changes in Morrowind all about then?

Orthogonal issues. The reworking of the constellations was separate from, though coincident with, the rise in CP cap.

One might observe a lack of similar changes at other CP cap increase events.

When the champion system was originally introduced, we also had no cap except you couldn't spend more than 3600, much weaker diminishing returns and no catch up mechanic. Changes don't always happen when they are needed, with Morrowind we got sustain changes because things had run out of control.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2018

DoctorESO wrote: »

People at end-game are already way beyond 690/720 CP. Quarterly increases in the max number of CP points you can spend may just further widen the power gap between end-game players and people trying to get to the end-game (the existing mechanism for making lower level CPs quicker to gain does not necessarily adequately compensate). The increases may also just further increase power creep. On the other hand, failing to increase the CP cap may cause end-game players to feel as though they are never progressing, because they aren't. What do you think?

CP system is a lame duck attempt at AA system. needs additional layers to this rudimentary system. This is just doubling down on a poor idea

JobooAGS · January 2018

I wonder what the new meta with the new cp is going to be like

Theodorus · January 2018

I think the problem is that the more CP you have available the fewer choices you need to make. Eventually everybody will have everything.

Allocating CP should require thought and choice.

On the other hand, isn't it about time they pushed armor up to CP200? Crazy talk, I know, since everyone has spent millions on golding out CP160 stuff that instantly becomes worthless. But when players are spending 500K for vase patterns in the guild stores, apparently cash flow is not a problem...

Jarryzzt · January 2018

You cannot really answer this question without knowing what proportion of the player base is at or anywhere near max CP.

For example, let us suppose that at any given point in time, on average, only 5% of the players are at or above CP600. [This would suppose either a very high churn rate, or a significant proportion of "casuals" in the game.] In this instance, increasing the CP cap is pretty much meaningless for 95% of players. Power creep this is not.

On the other hand, let us now suppose that 75% of players in the game are at or above CP600 (low churn rate, not a lot of casuals or high retention rate for casuals such that they stay for a year or more and eventually grind out the CPs). In this case, one could call this a power creep, since 75% of the players are suddenly buffed. Except for the following two factors:

- Unless they introduce new CP nodes, everybody will essentially be pumping the same ones and diminishing returns scale such that an extra 10-20-30 CPs won't make that much of a difference.
- If three quarters of the game's players truly are at or near the CP cap, then ZOS has to keep throwing them "bones" in the form of cap increases to give them the impression of some character advancement. Though this also means every year it needs to rebalance the PVE content to give these people something to do.

So. I know it's tempting to shout "power creep", but I have no idea what sort of server stats ZOS is seeing, and guessing doesn't help us since we know they will increase the CP cap.

I think that what this really comes down to is that in 2-3 years they are likely to do a wholesale revamp of the in-game balance. Again. Because if you just project quarterly CP increases to infinity then eventually you end up with a ridiculous gap between veterans and casuals (however many of these there are) plus nothing to offer the veterans in terms of character development, so unless most of your player base is casuals you end up with a problem. This is all far in the future, obviously, not a today thing.

Ratzkifal · January 2018

They do make it easier to get the early CP to compensate for that, but yes the power gap widens and makes contents like vMA easier. I reached the cap the first time before the release of CWC, then got below it again, then reached it and now I have 728CP. It's certainly not being added faster than a slow player gains CP.

redspecter23 · January 2018

We grow marginally more powerful over time, but make no mistake. ZOS will constantly monitor and nerf us here and there so that we don't actually gain any meaningful power over time. The give with the CP system and take away 4 times a year with targetted nerfs. They keep us exactly where they want us and provide the illusion that we are progressing.

phaneub17_ESO · January 2018

There's only two other options they can employ to stagnant power growth, first is by adding additional upgrade ranks above Legendary or by extending the power cap on gear increasing it to 170cp or 180cp. Champion Points seem like the least offensive option to their playerbase where there wouldn't be an uproar on changes to the power growth.

Which is weird, in any other MMO this would be seen as a good thing, that you have to continue scaling upwards getting better and better, while making everything more trivial as you get up thus you would need stronger content to deal with it. Not with ESO, everything is plateaued at a specific power level thus they don't have to push out more content to make up for the difference in power growth, Champion Points is more manageable in the long run.

technohic · January 2018

I think I’d rather just have new content get harder as progress without relation to character level. Pretty much how gold and silver were but just the difficulty no have Vet ranks again

Apache_Kid · January 2018

It's good for the game to me. I need to feel like I'm getting stronger and that content I'm familiar with takes less and less time to run. I already have near BiS gear and am nearing my personal limits on my rotations so players like me desperately need this CP for us to be able to complete the most difficult content and acheivments. People that are against this are masochists in my opinion. More CP means more DPS which means content goes by more quickly which means more runs of said content which means more drops. This is good for us.

SmellyUnlimited · January 2018

Getting max level is so incredibly easy in this game (as opposed to an old MMO, Everquest, where it took FOREVER. And even WoW).

You have Skyreach, Rando daily dungeons that give a ton of xp (which you can complete on numerous characters), Enlightenment, and more “double xp” events than I can even count. This game truly holds your hand and PUSHES you to max CP.

But why the rush? I’m past 690, but I’ve never had to grind or do other time-consuming things to level. Just play and enjoy the game; you’ll get to max cp eventually, it’s just a numbers game. And it’s not like life suddenly changes at max cp; still play with plenty of people who have no idea how to play their character, plenty of trolls, absurdly long trials runs etc. You’ll find everything is pretty much exactly the same, relatively speaking, at cp160 and cp690.

SmellyUnlimited · January 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

It's good for the game to me. I need to feel like I'm getting stronger and that content I'm familiar with takes less and less time to run. I already have near BiS gear and am nearing my personal limits on my rotations so players like me desperately need this CP for us to be able to complete the most difficult content and acheivments. People that are against this are masochists in my opinion. More CP means more DPS which means content goes by more quickly which means more runs of said content which means more drops. This is good for us.

That’s why you want to get more cp? Just to get more drops? You shouldn’t be able to move through new content that quickly. If anything, they need to vastly increase the difficulty of the game. More difficulty means the more players have to work to accommodate and, inevitably, become more skillful. I think skill is what truly plateaus. Even the new trials were fairly easy to get through, including the hm’s.

More difficult content will meaningfully give players something to strive for. The sense of accomplishment (and loot). As it is, the game is just farmed at this point. Everyone can get all the gear they need, and to do a minimal amount of work to get it. Other than just time-wasting easy farming runs to get....yes....”drops.”

MLGProPlayer · January 2018

It's pointless. We're at the point now where we're in diminishing returns territory for all relevant CP trees, so the quarterly increases don't make you noticeably stronger.

10 points in a line (that's all you get each quarter) adds less than 1% damage or resistance or whatever the variable you are increasing is.

Apache_Kid · January 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

It's good for the game to me. I need to feel like I'm getting stronger and that content I'm familiar with takes less and less time to run. I already have near BiS gear and am nearing my personal limits on my rotations so players like me desperately need this CP for us to be able to complete the most difficult content and acheivments. People that are against this are masochists in my opinion. More CP means more DPS which means content goes by more quickly which means more runs of said content which means more drops. This is good for us.

That’s why you want to get more cp? Just to get more drops? You shouldn’t be able to move through new content that quickly. If anything, they need to vastly increase the difficulty of the game. More difficulty means the more players have to work to accommodate and, inevitably, become more skillful. I think skill is what truly plateaus. Even the new trials were fairly easy to get through, including the hm’s.

More difficult content will meaningfully give players something to strive for. The sense of accomplishment (and loot). As it is, the game is just farmed at this point. Everyone can get all the gear they need, and to do a minimal amount of work to get it. Other than just time-wasting easy farming runs to get....yes....”drops.”

I want easy farming runs to better prepare me for the more difficult content. Don't even tell me this game is too easy. Go look at some of the acheivments for the dungeons like Falkreath Hold and Bloodroot Forge. Go look at how difficult something like vHoF or vAS is. The vast majority the player base will never be able to even beat this content let alone do the difficult acheivments associated with those modes. If anything the game needs a difficulty decrease. If anything we need the Morrowind sustain changes reverted. I want more CP to make the content I've already done 1000 times go faster so I spend less time doing farming runs and more time progressing in end-game content and more time playing PvP, things I actually enjoy.

runagate · January 2018

DoctorESO wrote: »

People at end-game are already way beyond 690/720 CP. Quarterly increases in the max number of CP points you can spend may just further widen the power gap between end-game players and people trying to get to the end-game (the existing mechanism for making lower level CPs quicker to gain does not necessarily adequately compensate). The increases may also just further increase power creep. On the other hand, failing to increase the CP cap may cause end-game players to feel as though they are never progressing, because they aren't. What do you think?

Joined December 2017

Apache_Kid · January 2018

runagate wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

People at end-game are already way beyond 690/720 CP. Quarterly increases in the max number of CP points you can spend may just further widen the power gap between end-game players and people trying to get to the end-game (the existing mechanism for making lower level CPs quicker to gain does not necessarily adequately compensate). The increases may also just further increase power creep. On the other hand, failing to increase the CP cap may cause end-game players to feel as though they are never progressing, because they aren't. What do you think?

Joined December 2017

Join date doesn't mean a thing. I waited a long time to join here after I started playing.

Kambo · January 2018

To start I want to say I have never actually reached any CP cap myself besides 160 for gear. I have seen people ask similar questions about CP and I just wanted to share my own opinions and ideas.

Right now I'm sitting at 218CP at roughly level 35 for my current character as of writing this. As soon as I reach/pass level 50 I will already be at CP218. From there I have to work on getting another 400/500 CP meaning I will be relying on the enlightenment system for the highest possible amount. I would also like to add that on my original character where I got to CP218 I played that character when Veteran Ranks were a thing, and I only got to V4 I think. That equates to CP40 nowadays, meaning I started at CP40 when I came back to the game. It took me about a month of work to get from CP40 to CP160, this includes the enlightenment buff WHILE grinding it all out in Veteran Dungeons. The amount of time it took me to gain 120 more CP from when I came back is just astounding to me. It's likely easier to gain CP in the game now, but I am still worried about my incoming grind to CP690, and then CP720 when Dragon Bones comes out.

I find the Champion Point system to be flawed because of the cap extending with each update or DLC. It does not add a sense of progression at all to me, rather a secondary system that you don't really have to pay attention to. It is not a form of progression, plain and simple. And according to some things I've read on this thread it seems that with each CP increase there is an added nerf to the game, making the "progression" all the more worthless.

This may not be a popular opinion but I think I enjoyed the Veteran Rank system more. It felt like actual progression passed level 50. Champion Points do not feel like that to me. To me they feel like a gap between the low level and high level players. Any justification applied to it does not feel right to me.

But let's say for a second that they do decide to remove Champion Points completely and in place of it simply increase the max level with every new chapter update, like Morrowind. One of the main problems I see is the gear level cap and how it would frustrate players for the level cap of gear to be increased as a result of any leveling changes.

In regards to this I propose that, if they were to simply extend the max level a player can achieve, they also add a new item to the game you can obtain through crafting functions like deconstruction and research. This item could be used on a crafted item to extend the max level of it. Whether this increases it to the maximum level a player can achieve, or simply increases it by increments of, say, 10 levels with each item used, this would make it less frustrating than being forced to craft a completely new set of gear but still provide some way to make that gear usable at max level, given that it is NOT max level already of course. This is just an idea, but I feel like it could work were they to remove the Champion Points system.

In regards to where all the buffs from the champion points go were they to get removed, I have to be honest and say I have no good ideas. Maybe you get a reward for spending your time grinding for all those champion points? I honestly have no idea.

My general thoughts on all of this would go as such:

-You start at level 50 and work your way up to whatever the new max level is. This way players who start at max CP won't find that they have to grind for a week to get those theoretical crafted gear level up items I mentioned above.

-Upon hitting max level there is no further progression until the next chapter comes out. This is kind of standard to the MMO's I've played. I feel like players shouldn't feel like they HAVE to progress further, but instead can enjoy being at the top level until they do get a chance to progress further in the future.

-That previously mentioned reward idea, since I can't come up with an alternative, for grinding out champion points would give you either gold, rare crafting ingredients, rare collectables such as costumes, personalities, or otherwise, or something completely different from any of these.

This is all just opinions and ideas so feel free to agree or disagree to your heart's content. I would like to hear your own ideas on this matter, as well as your opinions on my ideas and everything. I'd only ask that you don't be rude about it.

Ackwalan · January 2018

The more CP you have, the less each point gives. At max CP, dumping all 10 points into one category (ie health regen)will give about 1% bonus to just that one category. Now a person at 690 will be stronger then someone at 160, they should be, they put more time into the game.

The 'catch up" mechanic part of CP will greatly help people, you know, catch up. The XP needed to get to 690 will be less then it was last quarter.

SugaComa · January 2018

I took a year off came back and I am almost CP 720 ... Since august I have made over 400 CP with each cp increase the xp needed for lower CP is decreased making it easier to catch up.

Throw in enlightenment , XP events and potions and it's quite easy.

However that being said ... The best thing zos could do is just max the CP so we can unlock everything, balance the xp gain so people can earn it quicker, offer more none cp content for PvP and start giving crown crate rewards for each XP level gained beyond the CP max

Wifeaggro13 · January 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

It's good for the game to me. I need to feel like I'm getting stronger and that content I'm familiar with takes less and less time to run. I already have near BiS gear and am nearing my personal limits on my rotations so players like me desperately need this CP for us to be able to complete the most difficult content and acheivments. People that are against this are masochists in my opinion. More CP means more DPS which means content goes by more quickly which means more runs of said content which means more drops. This is good for us.

That’s why you want to get more cp? Just to get more drops? You shouldn’t be able to move through new content that quickly. If anything, they need to vastly increase the difficulty of the game. More difficulty means the more players have to work to accommodate and, inevitably, become more skillful. I think skill is what truly plateaus. Even the new trials were fairly easy to get through, including the hm’s.

More difficult content will meaningfully give players something to strive for. The sense of accomplishment (and loot). As it is, the game is just farmed at this point. Everyone can get all the gear they need, and to do a minimal amount of work to get it. Other than just time-wasting easy farming runs to get....yes....”drops.”

I want easy farming runs to better prepare me for the more difficult content. Don't even tell me this game is too easy. Go look at some of the acheivments for the dungeons like Falkreath Hold and Bloodroot Forge. Go look at how difficult something like vHoF or vAS is. The vast majority the player base will never be able to even beat this content let alone do the difficult acheivments associated with those modes. If anything the game needs a difficulty decrease. If anything we need the Morrowind sustain changes reverted. I want more CP to make the content I've already done 1000 times go faster so I spend less time doing farming runs and more time progressing in end-game content and more time playing PvP, things I actually enjoy.

this situation exists because there was no progression in eso. you walk through 95% of the content then hit Vtrials and it requires skill cordination and communication. if the rest of the content was drool on your keyboard while eating handfuls of valium to actual MMO content. thats a design problem not a issue of 5 % of the content is too hard its a problem of design. its why their is not one launch guild still playing this game

Nyladreas · January 2018

Isn't this a problem of every MMO?

If you don't have stuff like CPs and Passives you have Gear Progression...

Just be glad you dont have to spend bilions of gold to increase your power to next level with a high chance of losing your gear in the process of improving...

Like some korean MMOs...

Bobby_V_Rockit · January 2018

Skill still trumps CP, I see plenty of sub 400cp stormproofs but at 893 myself cant beat it. And thats after a year and half stuck on stage 5 lol

Wifeaggro13 · January 2018

Nyladreas wrote: »

Isn't this a problem of every MMO?

If you don't have stuff like CPs and Passives you have Gear Progression...

Just be glad you dont have to spend bilions of gold to increase your power to next level with a high chance of losing your gear in the process of improving...

Like some korean MMOs...

there should be level increases and additional layers to the end game. the problem is ZOS went free so they could bilk more money . id rather pay a sub and buy my expansions then play non sense single player online