Repentance - Change proposal

mandricus · October 2017

I understand the ratio behind the Repentance change in Morrowind and I'm fine with it. You wanted to put again focus on resource management, so there was no space anymore for a skill providing "free" stamina to all people in the group at every pull in PvE and on crowded fights in PvP.

Anyway, in it's current implementation, in a raid scenario, when there is more than 1 Stamplar in the group, the mechanics are very sad. The Stamplars have to fight each other over corpses in order to get stamina back. At every pull there is a race going on on "whoever hit repentance first will get the stamina back, the others won't get anything".

This is silly, and it is, in my opinion, fundamentally broken in an environment where group play should matters. In a raid environment people shouldn't be supposed to fight each other.

So this is my proposal to change Repentance: allow the ones that have the skill slotted, and that are near the one who is casting it, to be recharged.

It will be something similar to how the skill worked back in the days, but allowing only other Templars that have the skill slotted on the bar to take advantage of it.
Please note this won't be "free stamina for all", or "free stamina for all Templars", as in order to gain advantage from it, you will have to have it slotted on your bar. But this way, at least, we won't have anymore Stamplars having to fight each other in order to earn back resources, wich is a very sad thing.

At the moment, every time I go in a raid, and after the first pull I notice another Stamina Templar casting repentance, I feel very sad, as I know that the entire run, on every pull, will be a fight between us on whoever will hit the button first.

This is a sad and silly game mechanic, and I hope you will find a solution to fix it.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2017

Anything would be better then what is going on with repentance right now.

Slick_007 · October 2017

corpses only have so much energy you can pull out of them. i think you just need to be more creative on how you deal with this. and yes, i've played other games where my class relied on taking energy from corpses, and my xp partner also did. We found ways around it, outside of the box.

Shadzilla · October 2017

Lets be honest here, un nerf the resource management skills that they hit in homestead... The people that suffered the most from those changes were the baddies anyways... Instead of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling, they lowered the ceiling and dropped the floor down to the lowest it has ever been. The noobs pull much less dps than they used to, the good players still do fine, the only crappy thing is everyone has to do heavy attacks and combat has been slowed waaaaay down. Change the resource management back to what it was.

SoLooney · October 2017

yea it sucks, thats why for end game trials, there is really only 1 stamplar, just for power of the light and they dont have to fight other stamplars for repentence

it is also really sad when healers in dungeons cast it and youre screwing over the stamplars. their reply, but its a free heal. no!!!! thats why you have bol and healing springs and orbs....

Jeremy · October 2017

SoLooney wrote: »

yea it sucks, thats why for end game trials, there is really only 1 stamplar, just for power of the light and they dont have to fight other stamplars for repentence

it is also really sad when healers in dungeons cast it and youre screwing over the stamplars. their reply, but its a free heal. no!!!! thats why you have bol and healing springs and orbs....

That's ironic.

Now players get annoyed at healers for using Repentance.

Malic · October 2017

The morrowind change completely porked the skill for vet dungeons and even group fights in cyro. I could provide my stam dps buddies with good stam back. Given the immense changes in the regen meta at the time, eliminating the stam back to group members was bad.

Jeremy · October 2017

Malic wrote: »

The morrowind change completely porked the skill for vet dungeons and even group fights in cyro. I could provide my stam dps buddies with good stam back. Given the immense changes in the regen meta at the time, eliminating the stam back to group members was bad.

The idea to let other players who have the ability slotted share in the stamina return is a good one I think.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

If each Templar could Repent each corpse once completely for themselves, that seems like it would solve this. Does anyone ready benifit from the group health in the current set up? Healers don't run that morph and no one counts a Stamplar for any health.

Jim_Pipp · January 2018

I totally agree with this suggestion. I've seen too many dungeon groups delayed while a stamplar dps and a templar healer decide which of them have to change their skills to accommodate the other.

Joy_Division · January 2018

Just drop the whole "I understand why..."

Yeah, we understand. It was an ill-advised dumb changed that has made playing the class a lot more miserable and the game on the whole less fun overall.

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

Aisle9 · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just drop the whole "I understand why..."

Yeah, we understand. It was an ill-advised dumb changed that has made playing the class a lot more miserable and the game on the whole less fun overall.

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

Yes pls, can we haz that ?

DocFrost72 · January 2018

See I'd want literally anything done to fix this. Imagine if other classes had a 5 second global cooldown when someone in the vicinity, allied or foe, used an earthen heart ability, dark deal, netch, or siphoning? People would freaking lose their minds, and for good reason.

Otoh...

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

This will not happen, and tbh repentance needed a change regarding group stamina return. It was one of two reasons (the other being shards) that non templar healers were absolute garbage compared to templar ones.

Aisle9 · January 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

See I'd want literally anything done to fix this. Imagine if other classes had a 5 second global cooldown when someone in the vicinity, allied or foe, used an earthen heart ability, dark deal, netch, or siphoning? People would freaking lose their minds, and for good reason.

Otoh...

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

This will not happen, and tbh repentance needed a change regarding group stamina return. It was one of two reasons (the other being shards) that non templar healers were absolute garbage compared to templar ones.

Your point being ?

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

See I'd want literally anything done to fix this. Imagine if other classes had a 5 second global cooldown when someone in the vicinity, allied or foe, used an earthen heart ability, dark deal, netch, or siphoning? People would freaking lose their minds, and for good reason.

Otoh...

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

This will not happen, and tbh repentance needed a change regarding group stamina return. It was one of two reasons (the other being shards) that non templar healers were absolute garbage compared to templar ones.

Then try giving everyone else meaningfull ways to help the team instead of nerfing the only one with any soul to it.

Try adding, not subtracting.

Inarre · January 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

See I'd want literally anything done to fix this. Imagine if other classes had a 5 second global cooldown when someone in the vicinity, allied or foe, used an earthen heart ability, dark deal, netch, or siphoning? People would freaking lose their minds, and for good reason.

Otoh...

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

This will not happen, and tbh repentance needed a change regarding group stamina return. It was one of two reasons (the other being shards) that non templar healers were absolute garbage compared to templar ones.

They changed it and nerfed Templar healer, but the problem is that it also nerfed Templar stamina dps in any capacity but solo play. No other class has their sustain in competition with other players of the same class.

Nightblades have 15% extra regen and leeching strikes (not restricted per mob), dragonknights can spam earthen heart, use ults or use green dragon blood for 20% recovery, sorcerers have dark deal and 20% recovery with a summon skill slotted, wardens have netches and passive regen of 10% from heals and 20% from bird of prey.

Templars have 4% reduced cost, but no stamina regen without repentance slotted, and they have the lowest of all classes at 10%.... Anything above that is limited to one Templar per dungeon. That does need to be looked at no matter the state of healing.

A_G_G_R_O · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

See I'd want literally anything done to fix this. Imagine if other classes had a 5 second global cooldown when someone in the vicinity, allied or foe, used an earthen heart ability, dark deal, netch, or siphoning? People would freaking lose their minds, and for good reason.

Otoh...

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

This will not happen, and tbh repentance needed a change regarding group stamina return. It was one of two reasons (the other being shards) that non templar healers were absolute garbage compared to templar ones.

Then try giving everyone else meaningfull ways to help the team instead of nerfing the only one with any soul to it.

Try adding, not subtracting.

I never thought the day would come, but I agree with @Doctordarkspawn on this. This was a stupid change that removed something unique from templars instead of adding something unique to other classes. I miss draining bodies for the team, that was slick.

kypranb14_ESO · January 2018

Repentance was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Siphoning Attacks was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Dark Deal was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Battle Roar and Helping Hands were overpowered and needed a nerf.

The trend is, that Templars were not the only ones to recieve a sustain nerf. Every class got one, the way it effects each class is a little different.

However, I do believe Templars were hit the hardest. Followed by Nightblades, Dragonknights, and Sorcerers were pretty much unaffected.

I made a Templar on PTS that could sustain without heavy attacks or Repentance in a trial environment. My first parse with the character was 25.3k DPS. I don't play stamina classes, and I'm not a pro player by any means. I'm assuming a great player could push out way more DPS than that.

My magicka Nightblade on live also sustains fine without heavy attacks. I'm really not sure what all this talk about heavy attacks being mandatory for sustain is.

Aisle9 · January 2018

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

Repentance was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Siphoning Attacks was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Dark Deal was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Battle Roar and Helping Hands were overpowered and needed a nerf.

The trend is, that Templars were not the only ones to recieve a sustain nerf. Every class got one, the way it effects each class is a little different.

However, I do believe Templars were hit the hardest. Followed by Nightblades, Dragonknights, and Sorcerers were pretty much unaffected.

I made a Templar on PTS that could sustain without heavy attacks or Repentance in a trial environment. My first parse with the character was 25.3k DPS. I don't play stamina classes, and I'm not a pro player by any means. I'm assuming a great player could push out way more DPS than that.

My magicka Nightblade on live also sustains fine without heavy attacks. I'm really not sure what all this talk about heavy attacks being mandatory for sustain is.

Except NB, DKs, Sorcs and Wardens can still use their respective abilities. Templars can't, if there's more than one in the group. They weren't just nerfed, they lost access to the skill.

Also, Siphoning strikes wasn't nerfed, you can still sustain your main resource the same as before, you just lost access to the 2nd one. The only nerf was to saptanks.

Just saying.

Joy_Division · January 2018

DocFrost72 wrote: »

See I'd want literally anything done to fix this. Imagine if other classes had a 5 second global cooldown when someone in the vicinity, allied or foe, used an earthen heart ability, dark deal, netch, or siphoning? People would freaking lose their minds, and for good reason.

Otoh...

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

This will not happen, and tbh repentance needed a change regarding group stamina return. It was one of two reasons (the other being shards) that non templar healers were absolute garbage compared to templar ones.

And your other classes still can't do it so that situation has not changed. No reason to gut one of the few abilities in the game that genuinely rewards success and gives a non BiS DPS reason for a class to be in a group.'

You have it backwards. If non Templar healers are garbage, then non Templar healers need to offer something legitimately interesting to groups, not just toss out a bunch of nerfs and be satisfied we all suck and have crappy skills.

Danksta · January 2018

If Repentance was reverted to it's former glory you'd still only see one stamplar in raid groups and that is because of PotL's inability to stack.

Inarre · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

If non Templar healers are garbage, then non Templar healers need to offer something legitimately interesting to groups, not just toss out a bunch of nerfs and be satisfied we all suck and have crappy skills.

I agree.

Looking at it from the perspective of Zos' attempts at ending the Templar Healer Meta, Zos failed. They didn't level the playing field for healers, they just ensured Templar DPS and Tanks were less than competitive.

Yes, they made orbs more viable, spears less OP, took away repentance as a healer skill, gave warden passive squad regen and major mending. But they still secured Templars role as"the healing class" because they gave templars the only unrestricted "Oh ***" heal... They don't need to baby sit a pet that wants to die to a mob on the other side of the dungeon, or inspect their dying teammates facial features. They just hit a button, and in competitive content that is imperative.

After all the nerfs to their sustain, dps class skills and utility... that is ALL templars have. That is a templar's identity. Templars ARE the healers. And our Templar DPS and tanks simply no longer have the utility or sustain to compete with other classes.

In my opinion Repentance change (and Aura) is a huge part of the Templar = Healer meta... And changes to that skill and it's morphs could help that. For all roles.

Kolzki · January 2018

Most boss' adds disappear and can't be repented (if they even have adds) making stamina templars the only class without an effective sustain tool when they need it.

I occasionally see it being used for speed runs through trash in dungeons, getting a big stamina burst at the end of a pull. See me charging into the distance with a full bar of stamina while you're left behind? Yeah, I'm the templar that hit repentance first.

NyassaV · January 2018

I said this back in Morrowind... This is why I stopped playing templar and devoted all my time to nightblade

kypranb14_ESO · January 2018

Aisle9 wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

Repentance was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Siphoning Attacks was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Dark Deal was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Battle Roar and Helping Hands were overpowered and needed a nerf.

The trend is, that Templars were not the only ones to recieve a sustain nerf. Every class got one, the way it effects each class is a little different.

However, I do believe Templars were hit the hardest. Followed by Nightblades, Dragonknights, and Sorcerers were pretty much unaffected.

I made a Templar on PTS that could sustain without heavy attacks or Repentance in a trial environment. My first parse with the character was 25.3k DPS. I don't play stamina classes, and I'm not a pro player by any means. I'm assuming a great player could push out way more DPS than that.

My magicka Nightblade on live also sustains fine without heavy attacks. I'm really not sure what all this talk about heavy attacks being mandatory for sustain is.

Except NB, DKs, Sorcs and Wardens can still use their respective abilities. Templars can't, if there's more than one in the group. They weren't just nerfed, they lost access to the skill.

Also, Siphoning strikes wasn't nerfed, you can still sustain your main resource the same as before, you just lost access to the 2nd one. The only nerf was to saptanks.

Just saying.

I agree that ,Nightblades, Dragonknights and Sorcerers can still use their sustain oriented abilities, but I disagree with being able to sustain your main resource entirely on just Siphoning Attacks. I main a Magblade and there is no way that's possible without other factors of your build adding to your sustain, which you didn't need before the nerf.

The value on Siphoning Attacks was drastically reduced. It was over 1,000 per resource, per light attack. With a chance at 2,000+ for each resource upon hitting with an ability. Now it only effects one resource at a time, and only gives ~100 per light attack and nothing on ability casts, with ~4,000 after 20 seconds. So their is a huge difference here, you cannot sustain your magicka or stamina soley on their respective morph anymore. You actually need to build torwards sustain in some way.

I do think that each Templar should be able to desecrate each corpse for their own Stamina gain, but I think the healing effect should only be applied once per corpse.

@Aisle9

Mettaricana · January 2018

I feel like it should have a zero cost if corpses are near but if no corpses give it a cost and heal only health under those circumstances and they should allow each stanplar using it to draw from corpses not just forst come first serve

exeeter702 · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

See I'd want literally anything done to fix this. Imagine if other classes had a 5 second global cooldown when someone in the vicinity, allied or foe, used an earthen heart ability, dark deal, netch, or siphoning? People would freaking lose their minds, and for good reason.

Otoh...

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

This will not happen, and tbh repentance needed a change regarding group stamina return. It was one of two reasons (the other being shards) that non templar healers were absolute garbage compared to templar ones.

And your other classes still can't do it so that situation has not changed. No reason to gut one of the few abilities in the game that genuinely rewards success and gives a non BiS DPS reason for a class to be in a group.'

You have it backwards. If non Templar healers are garbage, then non Templar healers need to offer something legitimately interesting to groups, not just toss out a bunch of nerfs and be satisfied we all suck and have crappy skills.

You know a subset of templar players would cry afoul about homogenization as they did when orbs was changed to offer the same effect as shards. They would claim giving a unike perk / tool similar to repentance to other classes in some form would be taking away their "uniqueness or class identity". And adversely with how the game is structured, resource utility such as the one templars had a monopoly over for the longest time was always going to out do any other unique tool that could be given to other healers.

Ive given it a lot of thought for many years, an nothing, be it a healer with respectable damage, a healer that can take a lick, a healer with far more access to syngergies on offer, or any other unique strength would never be taken over a healer with exclusive access to stamina resource recovery utility. It was either strip down such a vital tool so all healers can bring it (orbs shards change, amd removal of repentance group utility), or give all healers access to an effect similar to repentance (outcry over class homogenization and individuality removal).

I liked the old repentance, but it being gutted was collateral from both the sweeping sustain nerfs of morrowind and zos slowly over the previous year giving non templar healers buffs to assist in the healing role.

Idk just some food for thought.

ArcaneBlue · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just drop the whole "I understand why..."

Yeah, we understand. It was an ill-advised dumb changed that has made playing the class a lot more miserable and the game on the whole less fun overall.

Just revert Repentance back to what it was.

I cannot agree more. my pve templar healer misses the old repentance so much

Tasear · January 2018

A bit too overpowered for suggested change.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

Tasear wrote: »

A bit too overpowered for suggested change.

How would it be too overpowered? It is really the only stamia management that the class has and as soon as you get 2 near each other, it is gone. I was just in a group on my stamplar in vwgt, got kick after the first trash pull because the other dps was a stamplar as well. They need to change this.

Girl_Number8 · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

A bit too overpowered for suggested change.

How would it be too overpowered? It is really the only stamia management that the class has and as soon as you get 2 near each other, it is gone. I was just in a group on my stamplar in vwgt, got kick after the first trash pull because the other dps was a stamplar as well. They need to change this.

Yes, change it back.