Yea I just watched this video. You cannot pretend to hold a perspective that you dont have. His whole argument with people creating meta to get through this fast and with the least resistance is a perfect example of him not having the experience that created meta. Nobody builds meta to get through Vmol fast lol they do it to get through it at all.

These are straight up pipe dreams from an ignorant and inexperienced player.

How long did VMols world first take? Almost a month if not more. The OPs post had some good points but this sherman guy is extremely pretentious to people who have been in progression groups. The audacity this guy has to blame theroy crafters and progression groups for a lack of creativity in Raids when he clearly has never been in a progression group.

What an arsehole. Actually got me a little mad.

Dont take endgame advice from people who dont play endgame.

Just visited ESO Daily's stream to talk . Here is the reason . He made a video about my comment in this thread here , starts to speak about it at 2:30 . The commentary is about no other comment but mine . You can watch the whole thing , there is no other comment being mentioned . Title says ''jealous haters'' . I asked him what it is about and he completely denied that it was about me . Doesn't even know what he says . He is literally reading my comment in the video and says to me that he made the video before my comment ^^ You can even listen to it in this stream . We start talking at 1:28:30 if you want to hear the all thing and the denial part is exactly at 1:44:50 . He closed the stream when I provided this info , that I am posting here right now , during the stream and he called it a night like nothing happened . So there is your saviour . Can't even accept something he said 2 days ago .

At the end of the video where he speaks about my comment , he does Volenfell . Constantly running out of resources especially at last boss fight . Healing is so pathetic , he has to use tree ultimate instead of horn ... Drowns in joy when dungeon is over because he completed one of the easiest contents in the game ... while both DDs are magicka who spam shields to stay alive while tank is absolutely desperate trying to kite bosses due to lack of healing . This build has a video on it where he says ''throwing the meta in trash'' . I don't know what to say and I don't see how people in this thread completely ignores all of this .

About the topic , I will quote something from a comment in this thread which explains this whole discussion in the most simple way .

Dont take endgame advice from people who dont play endgame.

This is so true . For example , my builds are different than meta all the time . Even my Stamina Sorcerer DD is different . BUT , there is a difference . I test my builds in actual end-game content , for weeks if necessary . There is a certain way you should follow while building differently than meta . If you are making a different build , you have to make sure it is capable of playing as good as the meta if not better so it will not be a non-meta build . I went through a lot of end-game content with my Warden Tank before publishing a build about it . I still have different legendary gear sets in my inventory that I tested and didn't like . I put effort into it like every actual end-game player does . There is no such thing as ''throwing the meta in trash'' . You can only be as good as meta if not better . That's why it is called meta . Making a ''non-meta'' build means your build is worse than meta , that's it . As I said , you have to make such a build that it performs at least as good as meta so it won't be classified as non-meta . Only way to prove that is to actually test it in end-game environment and post videos of proof . Not Fungal Grotto 1 or Volenfell .

I would just like to point out that there is a very big difference between an unorthadox snowflake build ie bosmer resto staff bow build vs something as simple as a non templar healer, which are entirely viable save for Dk healers which struggle currently in end game vet trials.

The point is its not unheard of to get instantly vote kicked from a random group consisting of uneducated players for reasons pertaining to not adhering to standard expectations. During this 2x experience event i have been kicked a hand full of times simply for not being a dk tank. Now nornally that is fine, morons will be morons, but the fact that the sentiment exists in the first place is the issue. A large part of that is the freedom that eso gives players to make what they will with builds. This is not an issue in other mmos. For almost all of ff14 heavensward, only 1 of the 3 tanks was considered end game viable yet you would never be kicked from a random queue dungeon.

I have personally been playing a NB healer since this games launch, and during the entirety of the experience in the game i know full well when it was not viable to be one for trails. The fact is that now, i have healing all vet end game content as a primary main healer and having to constantly explain myself to players that find the notion of a nb healer as unusual, strange, unorthadox, inefficient, snowflake-esque, suboptimal and a liability, all of which are objectively false mind you, is incredibly exhausting. I am not going to get into my personal tests and reasons for why NB healers completely compete with templars in end game healer role but the expected meta causes issue simply because there are too many players who are not in a postion to gauge why the current meta is what it is or why certain things work better than others even if so slightly, and in their inexperience, cast that expectation down to others who are far more experienced than they are and no better.

The issue isnt that x is meta and y isnt. The issue is that x>y is not relevant for the majority yet is enforced by those who have no business doing so.

thedude33 wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

Meta is Meta for a reason ...even though I hate that word. No mater what adjustments are made, there will always be one build better than the rest. No way to avoid it.

It's like saying there should be more gold medals given out for the mens 100 meter sprint.

It's more like saying that it's unfair to the other runners that there is an established fastest way to run the 100m sprint.

Can you run it backwards? Yes. Does everyone do it that way? No. Why? Because it's slower and no matter how much you practice, theorycraft, or study it running backwards or sideways will never be the 100m sprint meta.

Huh ?

Your analogy was poor. We aren't talking about rewards (gold medals) we are talking about the method of competition.

The meta in sprinting (the example you used) is to run facing forward. What other players are doing in this example, is complaining that the meta (running forward/the natural method) is hurting the game (sprinting). They are saying that hybrids (running backwards or even sideways) should be just as viable as meta builds (running forwards). That just isn't the case because no matter how hard you try, running forwards (meta builds) will always be superior to hybrids (any form of running other than forwards).

exeeter702 wrote: »

This statement is true, but its not what the OP was alluding to

There's no need to allude to anything, especially when it's completely off topic. medals have no correlation to what this thread is discussing. It's talking about the meta and the fact that players are often not taking part in group play because of another players lack of adherence to the meta.

Still, nothing to do with recognition of achievement. But this whole like on conversation is digressing from the issue at hand.

Meta conditions will always exist and math won't lie, there are superior builds and if someone hops into a group with a silly, backward build just because it makes them happy or it looks cool, don't be surprised when other players vote kick or bounce out of the group because they don't want to waste their time.

As I have said, find players who play like you. There are players who only want to play and it takes them an hour to clear BC1 because they have a poor build that they think its aesthetically pleasing, that they think gives cool bonuses and in their world they are a happy camper. There are other players who want to group with serious players who want to get through content in a timely manner and everyone should find players who fit their play style.

The meta isn't hurting the game, the idea that the game should forego maximized builds to make those who want to run around all willy nilly happy is hurting the game.

Finally, the meta will always exist. Get rid of this meta and there will just be a new one, and then someone else will complain about the current meta.

EDITED for quote

You can go ahead and gimp yourself all you want playing some hybrid bow bow warden, but leave the rest of us out of your RP fest. We do meta builds because they are the best, and when most of the end game content has frequent DPS checks, we only want the best.

meta is meta for a reason.

meta is most efficient

example, stam in vet trials, they each wear, nmg, sunderflame, morag tong, war machine and or powerful assault. that pen is important and helps increase the dps of all stam players.

sure, you could wear your own set but not wearing any support set is gonna screw over the group and you are not being a team player

play how you want, but the minute you do group content, your attitude has to change cause now your fun set up will most likely turn off other players. i see it a lot in dungeon pugs. ill see horrible dps in sword and board and pretend they are tanky and putting out good dps when they are not. players also think its fun to cosplay and do weird horrible moves in dungeons, insta kick.

im all for creativity and uniqueness, just do it on your own time or with ppl who dont care

SoLooney wrote: »

meta is meta for a reason.

meta is most efficient

example, stam in vet trials, they each wear, nmg, sunderflame, morag tong, war machine and or powerful assault. that pen is important and helps increase the dps of all stam players.

sure, you could wear your own set but not wearing any support set is gonna screw over the group and you are not being a team player

play how you want, but the minute you do group content, your attitude has to change cause now your fun set up will most likely turn off other players. i see it a lot in dungeon pugs. ill see horrible dps in sword and board and pretend they are tanky and putting out good dps when they are not. players also think its fun to cosplay and do weird horrible moves in dungeons, insta kick.

im all for creativity and uniqueness, just do it on your own time or with ppl who dont care

Responses like this are true but this is not what the op was talking about. *** snowflake bow / resto staff tree wizard builds have no place in end game group content. Approaches like that only have a place in solo rp endeavors or with likeminded group mates.

There is a very big difference between insta kicking non templar healers or non DK tanks (which is a reality) and kicking a dps who is trying to pull his weight with snb front bar lightning staff backbar.

The problem is too many players adhere to the strictest standards of the current meta in environments of the game that hardly require it. And to a lesser extent popular opinion trickles down from on high to players who are in no position of enforcing said opinions on others...

Example - XXdarthvader420XX might know that in most scenarios based strictly on end game leaderbaord progression via videos he watched on youtube that most top players prefer class x and y for certain roles yet he as a player is barely above average and has no experience outside of random vet dailies and makes it a habit to scrutinize or even try to remove from group the non templar healer or non dk tank for example, even though such players are possibly much more experienced or knowledgeable on how to play than the player in question is.

The meta will exist no matter what as a rule but to say it cant have a negetive effect in a game that encourages player choice yet fails to educate players in how things work effectivley and otherwise is silly.

Veteran DLC Dungeons and Veteran Trials (with or without Hardmode) are very difficult and therefore REQUIRE optimized builds to even complete them.
Veteran base game Dungeons, Normal DLC Dungeons & Normal Trials do not neccessarily require optimized builds and you literally can play whatever you want there and still get through. So whats the problem?

No matter what, in my case I want to get through a dungeon as quickly as possible, thus I like to theorycraft and optimize settings and groups. A lot of people do not like end game raiding guilds because they require a high skillgap (and because most of them are dickheads anyway). The choice is yours in the end, either you build your own guild (which would solve the issue 100%) or you get the requirements done and voila.

Also, please do tell me you do NOT also get frustrated when you see a person only spamming Light Attacks without any skills or whatsoever because "reasons"

I can get behind this. My experience in this game is centered around my main stamina NB. It has been a nightmare to play to complete content. Mealstrom arena was so hard etc etc. On top of this It's very hard to feel Night bladey. I would like to pop in and out of shadows and use class skills. Instead every stam toon I play pretty much plays the same way. Maybe stam sorc being the one exception.

So I stopped playing. I would love to play again, and will pick it up some time in the future, but yeah I would love to have more options.

Imagine working on a group project in college or university and one of your group-mates wants to write your 26 page paper by hand because "that's how they enjoy writing." You either get a jumbled end product or join them and suffer through hand writing your portion of the assignment.

There are plenty of things that would work, but most of those would hinder your group and cause you to fall far behind in performance. That's the argument here, I think, not whether or not it's possible.

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

Well, guys maybe I've expressed myself poorly (which is likely ) or some of you didn't try to understand at all (also likely). Either way, I feel sorry for that.

I'm not saying that people should accept crapy builds and lose their time doing this.

I'm saying that there are people like me that are working hard on their build and actually do a great job as healer, damage dealers, or tanks but sometimes they don't have the opportunity to show it because they are rejected before that.
If you still think that a sorc healer or a warden healer will only make you lose your time you probably don't know the game you're playing.

on the other side it's totally normal that in any game you have "the most efficient build" for people that want to play to the competitive part of the game and it's perfectly fine but what is happening in our communities it that :

The most efficient build for leaderboard become the only acceptable build to play in trials or hard dungeon even if the leaderboard is not the goal ... That is where the problem of close mind starts.

The point is just that: the community should be more open to other efficient possibility and work with the beautiful diversity the game offers.

There guilds that exist that allow sub optimal builds within there raids. I know they exist because the people I run with that like running sorc healing or magdk dps will go to them to run. The fact of the matter is if a guild can push scores in a trial they're most likely not going to want to bring sub optimal builds wen they can easily get a higher performing build and person. If you want to sorc heal find a new guild friend.

I'm curious would you kick a tank from endgame that is running two handed on the backbar only used for buffs?
I have the problem that I get kicked a lot from vet dungeons.

In PvP there isn't a issue really there's actually some diversity but in pve there will always be a meta build that's just how it is.