Why the Meta is hurting the game .

Ragnarock41 · December 2017

There will be always a meta, no matter what, something is gonna be better than the other.

itsfatbass · December 2017

While there are certain sets that are still just plain better, the whole meta concept is a farce. I can get very similiar dps using a variety of sets these days. The only role thats really put squarely into a "meta" is healer, and even then they have some wiggle room with sets to use.

Koensol · December 2017

Look, OP. I agree wholeheartedly that creativity should be promoted. I too like playing unconventional builds in pve, but I do think you need to keep asking yourself: "am I contributing as much to the group as any other person in my group?" You can't just do something else and expect it to work. A lot of people don't ask themselves this question and still get mad when people call them out. If you want to do it differently, you better know what you're doing.

This ESO Daily guy for example has so much misinformation in his videos, it is hard to take him seriously. Just yesterday watched his argonian nb tank video, in which he claimed that the argonian passive "resourceful" gave him a 12% increase to all his recovery. He even opened the character window to show how they increased, completely ignoring the fact he just drank a tritat pot... Im sorry OP, he is not a good example.

Anyways, for veteran dungeons, even DLC and vDSA, and for all normal trials, you can mostly build very creatively and still be effective. In these types of content I legit LMFAO when people complain that I heal on a nightblade, or that I use 2h as a dps. As long a I am pulling the numbers and supporting the group, people should just stfu with their preconceived bs. Only in veteran trial groups that want to progress towards achievements I can see a legit reason for meta builds, or at least builds that perform similar or very close to that level.

Tinus_92 · December 2017

I think people forgot that when trials such as Maw of Lorkhaj came out, average raiding groups had a dps of 25k each instead of the current 45k or more. There are a lot of 'non-meta' builds reaching 30 or even 40k on skeletons but who are still being looked at for not being competetive.

In such trial content teamwork, teamplay, coördination, knowing your build and knowing the trial mechanics have been more important then the numbers. I've seen plenty of people reaching 50k skeleton-parses but constantly die on the vmol twins, a boss which can be cleared relatively easy by having 25k if played well by the whole group. Bringing 25k and being able to stay alive will result in better scores as bringing 50k with some deaths along the way.

Fully optimizing your character only will become worth it when you actually complete such hardmodes repeately in a consistent group setup of a professional raiding guild, who actually reach the top 100 of the leaderboards. We're not speaking about a 5% best here, but the amount of players who fall into this category is less then 1%, probably even <0,1%. Until then, builds such as nord healers or magicka melee DD's are just fine to clear the job. Meanwhile, the whole vet-pve community is discussing about metas instead and leaving out those who don't fit into their eyes.

Tasear · December 2017

Remember when people thought the earth was flat and it was proven to be sound for many many years. Those guys who said otherwise where killed or imprisoned.

Remember when it was thought earth was center if universe? Everything said this to be true.

So yes group think is dangerous for societies. They will yell I am right and so was my great great ancestors.

But know the Earth is round and sun is at center. It took people say no ...you are wrong first before truth became the truth.

For OP,

Here's some radical and somewhat mean soultion

People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ...

You don't have to be right just get enough people to believe you are right. Make blog or YouTube stream as headquarters. Then spread your beliefs like they do.

Passion rules reason." ..

Your passion can change the false reasoning others may believe to true.

On hand they might just accept you because you are passionate. It's like being a fire in darkness.

"Vote to kick those who don't agree"

Especially in four man, nobody likes a bully so if you find someone being scum. Just control the situation before he tries to control it.

At level 10 you can start a guild

It's simple give yourself power to do so as you wishm. Recruit like minded individual. They may leave but you already affected them.

Lastly I believe you are a healer so my advice is this. Did anyone who you set should live die? If not you are doing your job.

If nothing else you have one life to live so live the way you want to.

Diacliamer two wizard rules are being quoted from Terry goodkin books.

Tasear · December 2017

This deserves another post,

It's interesting to see the monster that was created. @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

It's more like an society then a game. By not assigning class roles we now have society issues including discrimination between races and even classes of people. We scholars fighting for who is right in their theories. We have merchants forming alliances to control power. There games weathly play with economy from stock market value, from the intial price. Hmm the only who got it easy ate thieves, pickpockets, and murders or even warriors in cydrolli.

I have fallen in love once again with game. I can't imagine how hard it is not balance game but a society. It's no wonder we love game we have better good and goddesses then reality...and they talk with us mortals

P.S hire me someday

Chrlynsch · December 2017

Minno wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Well, sometimes the "meta" is hidden for the majority of the players and no one cares about whether X-set or Y-set is the strongest until some streamer makes a video about it.

Just take Kodi´s new video where he shows his "new" stam-sorc build where he uses Prisoner´s Rags set together with 7th Legion and Trollking (he also talks about using it with Werewolf but says it will probably come in future videos). That particular setup (aside from the Asylum 2hander) has been the "WW-meta" since many, many months back. It synergises very well with everything that has to do with stam-sorc. I wouldn´t be surprised if people soon will post threads about Prisoner´s Rags-set being "OP/broken".....

Another example was the "classic" stamDK setup with 7th Legion + WW hide + Bloodspawn/Malubeth, that was created just after 1T (even tho Lemur & Co was known for exploiting a lot of *** with their builds they started some kind of "meta"). It wasn´t until a few months ago when people started for real to QQ on the forums that ppl thought it was a problem with this new "meta". Now that almost everyone knows about this setup, I rarely see anyone QQ about it anymore for being a "broken meta"

The people I usually see complaining about "meta" destroying the game are those players who´s been playing a really long time, and invested a lot of gold, time and effort into their main builds, and suddenly they´re not competitive anymore since the new "meta" is stronger than their own previous builds/setups, and it´s easier to QQ on the forums than to change your setup and adapt to the new "meta". I can be wrong but it´s just my opinion about it...

My point is that "meta" builds doesn´t hurt the game unless you really want it to. And sometimes the creation of a new "meta" is good because it often shows what needs to be tweaked in the game, the issue arise when people QQ about meta just because their old builds isn´t as effective as it used to be.

It is actually fairly balanced for a "regen" set. When you sprint, you are locked out of abilities and are suspect to CC while also being locked out of your stam regen. It is great for any build looking to use sprint for mobility and is fairly clunky to proc in combat (so many players might be put off but that). I applaud Kodi for using the set, prisoners needs more love!

But good luck farming for the pieces lol. The jewels can't drop from dolmens (there aren't any dolmens lol), the two hander sword has a terrible drop rate, and you still are fighting RNG with the other cold harbor sets (mostly blessed). Even treasure maps had a terrible drop chance. Believe me I tried, and I have a full 5 piece bodyset/gold rings/3 2h swords and 1h sword for my magplar.

If you have extra AP sitting arround you can use it to buy Region boxes from the Cyrodiil vendor. Just another way to lock down the gear. I think I've got three sets + have loaded out at least 10 other wolves with theirs

Silver_Strider · December 2017

Honestly, the people that hold the META as required for any form of content are the problem. My friend and I queued for vRoM, him on his Magblade Healer and me on Stamblade. Get a DK and another magblade. We get to Chudan and every time the tank got the circle AoE, he'd run in the complete opposite direction of the Lightning add and we'd end up wiping.

After explaining the mechanics for the 3rd time, Tank pipes up with this gem. "The problem is we have 3 ****ing NBs. I know NBs have heals but this fight needs a Templar." It's not like a Templar would be able to heal thru that damage all that much better and it wasn't a DPS issue as we were melting everything prior to that no problem and Chudan's adds were practically a non-issue as they died quickly enough to not cause problems . On our final attempt, tank never got the AoE and we cleared no problem. He promptly left after we killed Chudan.

Jpk0012 · December 2017

I find this hard to believe. I have only ever been kicked out of a group from WGT and ICP, and that was because I wasn't level 50. They kicked me right at the start. I have never, nor would I ever, kick someone because they weren't META. But, you better believe I vote to kick some jerk who wants to run the dungeon solo - it is extremely rude and selfish to run ahead and drop your aggro on your group. I would also vote to kick a healer or tank who isn't doing their role in a Vet dungeon. I am a firm believer in normal dungeons you need to take care of yourself - the community has set this expectation and unless you're about 15 days old or less into ESO there is no excuse(other than you want someone to take care of your sorry butt). And I don't vote to kick people who continuously die - why risk getting another newbie? Normal dungeons aren't worth the shot to my karma.

I doubt I would kick anyone even if they weren't level 50. Normal dungeons are not tough. All 4 people do not need to be level 50 500+ CP and know the mechanics for any normal dungeon. Not even close. I completed ICP the other day on all sub 50 toons, and none of us knew the mechanics. I hate that dungeon, because its so long. So, I think I have done it maybe 2 times.

Hell, I was on my healer today DPSing Darkshade 1 and I was focusing on that too much and a few people died. Maybe someone initiated the vote, but I wasn't kicked(in my defense they were standing in red and it is a trivial dungeon - but yeah I should have been paying attention to my assigned role). So, I don't believe getting booted from a group is as prevalent as you make it.

Personally, I have a healer, a dps and a tank. The other character slots are for test. Anyone who has a problem with that is an outlier and has no allies.

If you ever ran across this you just met 3 arse-hats that have no friends in RL or in-game. Don't waste your thoughts on idiots that think every PUG dungeon needs to be finished in 10 minutes or less.

boombazookajd · December 2017

There will always be a superior meta. As mentioned, math will always prevail in trials. Honestly, if you're around people who back out or kick because of your race or whatever, thats on them. Find people who you like to play with who don't spoil your fun.

Meta players will likely want to play with other meta players, ensuring a swift and/or efficient progression through a vet dungeon or trial. More casual players, like myself, don't give two hoots about what gear you're rocking as long as things die and the group doesn't and you do your job expected in your role.

If you want to run a crazy set, then do it, but don't expect to get accepted by everyone. I've found a few friends who just like to play and we do focus on good sets; we know the various meta builds for our classes. As long as we clear things, even if there are a few deaths, we are happy and we joke about it later.

Just have fun because that's what we are here to do. Some people take it too seriously for my taste and I likely am too casual for them.

So in the end, you can't hate on meta players or the meta builds. You define the rules in which you have fun but don't dictate the rules in which others have fun either. That goes both ways; meta players don't need to be hating on casual folks who don't spend a few hours researching the perfect build.

Gahmerdohn · December 2017

@Tasear (others as well) Thank you for understanding the real message behind this post .

A lot of people talk about personal problem when the message is clear: we should leave some space to new ideas even though the ones that brings them are not perfect.

I'm working on every character I play , I don't think someone would have something to say playing with me but still, you always have some people that have blindly follow the meta and come to talk even before see ...

The meta is not the problem as such , the problem is that now on the balance too much effort is done by the community towards the meta and almost nothing is done towards diversity, and the ones that try sometimes receive hate...(that is why the meta is hurting the game in that sense)

We don't have to agree with everybody, but we should respect a little more the differences. Respect the one that are working hard to make their own idea of build work instead of giving up and chose something that has already been proven to work.

FakeFox · December 2017

Wait...what? The whole point of theory crafting is to get the absolute most out of your role, which unavoidably ends up in a very small meta. The meta is not where it is because progress players and theory crafters are bad people, but because being successful in endgame PvE requires you to follow the meta. To take your example: A Templar is simply the better healer, hence why nobody takes a Sorc for progress groups. Of course that does not matter for a random normal or something but that casual players copy the meta without understanding it is not the fault of the endgame players providing builds.

Edit: ESO Daily gets "hated" because he simply provides misinformation. Play whatever build you like, but if you state things that are objectively falls in videos that are supposed to provide information for newer players you deserve to be criticized for it.
This is in my opinion one big factor for the "toxic" community: People that don't know it themselves teaching other people ****.

Cirka · December 2017

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

@Tasear (others as well) Thank you for understanding the real message behind this post .

A lot of people talk about personal problem when the message is clear: we should leave some space to new ideas even though the ones that brings them are not perfect.

I'm working on every character I play , I don't think someone would have something to say playing with me but still, you always have some people that have blindly follow the meta and come to talk even before see ...

The meta is not the problem as such , the problem is that now on the balance too much effort is done by the community towards the meta and almost nothing is done towards diversity, and the ones that try sometimes receive hate...(that is why the meta is hurting the game in that sense)

We don't have to agree with everybody, but we should respect a little more the differences. Respect the one that are working hard to make their own idea of build work instead of giving up and chose something that has already been proven to work.

I don't think anyone disagrees that more build diversity would be good, but I think the point you are missing is you are essentially spreading a bad case against the meta with this guy and his video. I watched the whole video, and to me (and I assume, others) it just sounded like "Players who lack skill should be able to do this or that and its all the fault of the meta".

The other point I got from him was that, regardless of someones build, if people give them a chance they can shine as bright as the moon, which is just not true. There is a reason things are meta, and there is a reason things are not meta. Some sets just suck. That's not the players fault, that is the games fault, but that still doesn't magically make it viable in group play.

There are lots of people who don't care about the meta and don't care about what people run for their builds (I know I don't care what people run, I've been in dungeons that took minutes, or as the guy in the video likes to say, "20 minutes", to kill trash mobs, and I say nothing, I just keep on going because at the end of the day, I am more laid back, I'm in no rush, and I am just enjoying my game play). At the same time, there are people who do care, some people just want to get in and get out and don't want to always have to watch someone butcher a mechanic in the game or sit there and explain why their set is considered bad and why this set would be a better choice for them.

If you want to run around in sets that just plain suck, then join a guild that is okay with that and run guild dungeons or trials together. They honestly do exist. In fact I am sure you'd be surprised by the amount of guilds that are okay and even encourage that play style. Those kind of guilds tend to be the more fun guilds too, the kind of guilds that you can build fun memories with even.

I agree (and I am sure most do) that there should be a mass buff to sets/gear that are out there that lack in every way. Its healthy for the game as it creates diversity, but at the same time, if something is not considered viable or meta, there usually is a reason. I'm sure there is some combo of sets out there that people think are terrible that might actually be hidden OP (It's rare, but it does happen occasionally).

In short it really comes down to this: If you want to run around and do something that hinders your potential, that's fine, but don't get upset if other people are not happy about it, its their time you are wasting, not the other way around.

Minyassa · December 2017

I think you're not going to convince anyone who doesn't already believe the same thing, because pretty much the Meta is based on people being convinced that the majority is always right and absolutely refusing to try anything that is different or risks exclusion from the mainstream. The people who are willing to experiment and take risks are the ones who already don't bother with the Meta cult.

RavenSworn · December 2017

I've come to the conclusion that:

You don't change the world by changing people. You change your perceptions and be the driving force of change yourself. Be stoic in your principles but compromise on the reactions. People follow those who believe in themselves.

Why care about the meta? They can follow it all they want. Forge your own path and be damn good at it.

Gahmerdohn · December 2017

@RavenSworn , @Minyassa

I just can't agree more! Let's do the work!

Thank you all (those that agree and also those that don't agree) for answering and sharing your point of view and opinion on the subject.
Nuancing your point of view by confronting it to other people is key to a better understanding. Again thanks all

Ragnarock41 · December 2017

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

Well, guys maybe I've expressed myself poorly (which is likely ) or some of you didn't try to understand at all (also likely). Either way, I feel sorry for that.

I'm not saying that people should accept crapy builds and lose their time doing this.

I'm saying that there are people like me that are working hard on their build and actually do a great job as healer, damage dealers, or tanks but sometimes they don't have the opportunity to show it because they are rejected before that.

I think this is more of a player mentality problem.
and a PvE mentality problem.

The thing we call meta also exist in PvP, and also hurts the game, but It does not stop you from playing a DK healer, or a tankblade. I seriously wished classes never existed, and we had the option to choose 3 class skill trees instead, which would fit this game, but instead sadly we have this so ''unique'' classes.

IF people are rejecting you without giving a chance, you should not play with them in the first place.

Conduit0 · December 2017

I honestly can't blame people for not being willing to take a risk on an unknown. Queues are long and the general success rate of PUG groups is low to begin with. Some of it might elitism, but I suspect a lot of it is people just wanting to clear content without it turning into a giant headache.

thedude33 · December 2017

Meta is Meta for a reason ...even though I hate that word. No mater what adjustments are made, there will always be one build better than the rest. No way to avoid it.

It's like saying there should be more gold medals given out for the mens 100 meter sprint.

mocap · December 2017

Meta is mostly for trials and DLC vet dungeons. Other things are irrelevant.
- dps around 25K? Good!
- hold agro and never die? Good!
- heal and your team never die? Good!;
- know dungeon mechanics? Excelent )

What else do you need?

My Mag Templar healer wears (hold your breath, you were warned

) : Twice-Born Star + Willpower + dual sword Julianos + Grothdarr, uses no Resto skills... And yet he can 20K single target dps (50-60K trash dps) and heal whole team from 0 to max hp with infinite sustain. Never heard a single complain about my play.

Joosef_Kivikilpi · December 2017

Having a blast with my super weird Nightblade "traditional" tank... that's Magicka. hahaha!

But I feel you-- for pvp... 2H and Vamps. So tired of seeing it everywhere. haha

Gahmerdohn · December 2017

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I seriously wished classes never existed, and we had the option to choose 3 class skill trees instead, which would fit this game, but instead sadly we have this so ''unique'' classes.

When I saw this I couldn't help but think about "Animal companion (Warden)" + "Earthen Heart( DK)" + "Green Balance" (Warden)

for a stamina archer build...Amazing idea !!!!

Tasear · December 2017

Innovation

Are you a sheep to herded,
A dog to chained,
Or a Human walking their own path?

FearlessOne_2014 · December 2017

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Having a blast with my super weird Nightblade "traditional" tank... that's Magicka. hahaha!

But I feel you-- for pvp... 2H and Vamps. So tired of seeing it everywhere. haha

2Her is grossly OP because of gaps it completely fills on most stamina builds.

Vamps are everywhere because unless you are a Nightblade or Sorc. You will be victimize by those classes. That and amount of burst CC chains that magicka users have to deal with. ZOS has pretty much pigeonholed most magicka based users into going Vampire. Because without it you'd stand little chance against a stamina build 1v1 or small scale unless you are a Sorc or NB.

2Her just flatout needs some nerfs through battle spirit buff.

Magicka based playstyles either needs to be almost on par with stamina based classes Mobility and CC avoidance. Because at the moment I'm force to go Vampire on my non Sorc or NB characters just to try to complete with Stamina high mobile, high lock down and burst builds in 1v1 to smallscale Cyrodiil. It's miles worst in Non CP campaign the imbalances between magicka and stamina really shines there. Even with vampirism, most cases with lag included if a stamina user catches you not on a NB or Sorc they will either just lock you down and erase you with ease, or they will just reset the fight close gap on you.

The last case Magicka as a whole just needs flatout access to break-free and dodge roll as well.

MilwaukeeScott · December 2017

The Meta may be hurting your game, but mine is fine.

boombazookajd · December 2017

thedude33 wrote: »

Meta is Meta for a reason ...even though I hate that word. No mater what adjustments are made, there will always be one build better than the rest. No way to avoid it.

It's like saying there should be more gold medals given out for the mens 100 meter sprint.

It's more like saying that it's unfair to the other runners that there is an established fastest way to run the 100m sprint.

Can you run it backwards? Yes. Does everyone do it that way? No. Why? Because it's slower and no matter how much you practice, theorycraft, or study it running backwards or sideways will never be the 100m sprint meta.

Undefwun · December 2017

After 2 years away I’m basically a new player.

I look at builds, but they always need some mods to fit me. One thing they do for me is help me understand the game better as I get to see why certain skills are placed on which bar to unlock the use of certain passives etc...

Side note: That ESO Daily guy, whoa, home slice is a six pack short of a case.
OP listing him is not helping your case at all

thedude33 · December 2017

boombazookajd wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

Meta is Meta for a reason ...even though I hate that word. No mater what adjustments are made, there will always be one build better than the rest. No way to avoid it.

It's like saying there should be more gold medals given out for the mens 100 meter sprint.

It's more like saying that it's unfair to the other runners that there is an established fastest way to run the 100m sprint.

Can you run it backwards? Yes. Does everyone do it that way? No. Why? Because it's slower and no matter how much you practice, theorycraft, or study it running backwards or sideways will never be the 100m sprint meta.

Huh ?

Gahmerdohn · December 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yau2fpzZw5Y

...

AtraisMachina2 · December 2017

PvE Meta is isolated in this game. Its not because of community theroycrafters. Go into Vmol for the first time without Meta setting and you wont beat it. Hell you probably wont even if you do. The Dlc trials were balanced for the top 2% and if you group isnt preforming in the top 2% then you wont beat it.
So Trials Isolate meta a fair amount but then you throw in pvp. Balancing every skill line for PvE and PvP will ALWAYS make one unbalanced. You cannot compete in damage in PvE with a 2 hander and not be over powered in damage out put in PvP.

You need more space to work with if you want more diversity in PvE. That wont happen as far as balancing Trial difficulty so if you want more diversity ask ZOS to Seperate PvP and PvE entirely

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

@Tasear (others as well) Thank you for understanding the real message behind this post .

A lot of people talk about personal problem when the message is clear: we should leave some space to new ideas even though the ones that brings them are not perfect.

I'm working on every character I play , I don't think someone would have something to say playing with me but still, you always have some people that have blindly follow the meta and come to talk even before see ...

The meta is not the problem as such , the problem is that now on the balance too much effort is done by the community towards the meta and almost nothing is done towards diversity, and the ones that try sometimes receive hate...(that is why the meta is hurting the game in that sense)

We don't have to agree with everybody, but we should respect a little more the differences. Respect the one that are working hard to make their own idea of build work instead of giving up and chose something that has already been proven to work.