Flame Blossom - what a disappointment

Carbonised · January 2018

Sorry if I'm late for the party, but I didn't really play when Reach dungs came out, and only recently had a chance to look at the Flame Blossom set.

On paper it really fills out a niche, there are very few good/decent mag based 5 piece proc sets, and as I play a Dunmer DK, everything fire oriented is immediately attractive to me.

Got my set and put it on, and oh boy was I disappointed.

The first thing you notice is that the damage is somewhat mediocre. Less tooltop than Skoria or Velidreth, which are only 2 pieces, compared to 5 for Flame Blossom.

But that's not the real issue, the real issue is the timing and direction of the proc. Tooltip says it procs after 1 second. Now after having proced this set many times on overland mobs, it definitely is more than 1 second. The time from when you see the flames starting to swirl around your character until they finally come out, feels more like 2 seconds to me. I find myself seeing the flame initiation, and then having to wait for it to happen, sometimes impatiently. You don't have time to wait impatiently if it's only 1 second.

The direction is the real killer for this set though. It procs in the direction your character is facing at the time, meaning that 90 % of the time, the flames pass off in some direction where the mob stood 5 seconds ago but has long gone from now. Even with large overland bosses with large hit boxes, more times than not I found my flames going out somewhere far off from the target and not hitting it. Poof, there goes your 5 piece bonus for 0 damage. When mobs and bosses do their knockback attacks, that shortly interrupts your character, and which btw is both unblockable and ignores CC immunity, the short "backwards" animation of your character also means that the flames shoot out of your rear and backwards, even if you're facing the mob head on! Talk about a complete and utter disappointment.

Even when the set actually shoots off in the right direction, the flames crawl forward at a speed so slugishly lethargic that a rheumatic turtle could lazily sidestep them before being hit. Even with overland mobs that rarely move, I found that I struggled to hit more than a single mob with this attack. Now try it on bosses and mobs that move, or god forbid even players, and you're facing a 98% miss chance or more.

I tried this set on extensively, and tried making the best of it, until it became decon fodder. Even as a fire themed Dunmer DK I'd rather settle for something else than this complete and utter piece of junk. What a huge disappointment, you finally make a 5 piece flame set that could be a companion to my Skoria or Grothdarr setup, and you make it so hillariously underperforming. The fire animation itself is also pretty lackluster, though it does fit the lackluster proc of this set.

Just a few things would have lifted this set from the trash can to at least being somewhat viable and fun to use.
By far, the biggest disadvantage is the direction of the proc. This should have been proced to always aim at your nearest target, as I believe it was on the PTs at first. At least it would ensure you hit your target, unless they stepped out of the way. Plenty of procs, like Skoria, Lich crystal, Red Mountain, Infernal guardian and many others are targeted.
The other thing is the time of the flame moving. It's so crawlingly slow that when it actually reaches something, odds are that whatever stood there has moved already 10 seconds ago. At least you could have sped up the flame moving until you actually had to make an effort in order to sidestep/move out of it.

What's the point of adding new sets if you're going to make them as underperforming as this (as well as the Domihaus 2 piece proc which is just hillariously bad). I get that you wanna start out slow when it comes to proc sets, and not make them too OP from the start. But Reach has been out a while now, and I think your statistics will show you that Flame Blossom isn't being used by anyone competitively, and could use a boost to make it more viable, and actually hit something instead of going out your rear end and hit a flower in the distance at best.

Doing some google searches and forum searches also confirms that it's not only me who has a low opinion of this set. Apparently it was alright on the PTS, with targeted procing, but the end result has been dismissed by everyone due to poor hit chance.

SmellyUnlimited · January 2018

So true. Seeing proc’s now is laughable at best.

Defiler’s set? Truly absurd. This dumb-looking spindly alien emerges, then slowly walks a few feet and spews poison (and yes, generally where the enemy is not anymore.)

Red Mountain since the nerf looks instead like a slowly rising cauldron that ineffectively shoots bits of lava at nothing in particular.

Those are the only two that come to mind. PvP-wise I can say Selene’s and the Eternal Hunt set are both extremely easy to dodge. I’ve crafted I don’t know how many Eternal sets for folks who are VERY disappointed when you see the set in action.

Carbonised · January 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

So true. Seeing proc’s now is laughable at best.

Defiler’s set? Truly absurd. This dumb-looking spindly alien emerges, then slowly walks a few feet and spews poison (and yes, generally where the enemy is not anymore.)

Red Mountain since the nerf looks instead like a slowly rising cauldron that ineffectively shoots bits of lava at nothing in particular.

Those are the only two that come to mind. PvP-wise I can say Selene’s and the Eternal Hunt set are both extremely easy to dodge. I’ve crafted I don’t know how many Eternal sets for folks who are VERY disappointed when you see the set in action.

I get that no one wanted the procalypse like before, but why is it so hard for them to balance somewhere in the middle. Flame Blossom damage isn't that impressive, but it least it would be something if it hit reliably. However, when I'm struggling to hit even overland dumb mobs that stand still most of the time, it's not gonna be any good against vet dungeon bosses that move around a lot, or players that are constantly moving all the time.

ak_pvp · January 2018

The swirls are sort of to show the proc, and allow you to turn accordingly. Then there is the 1s it is in place before it moves, allowing a dodge. Originally there was no 1s wait, but they ninja nerfed it to avoid a repeat, as you said, thus killing the set.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Those are the only two that come to mind. PvP-wise I can say Selene’s and the Eternal Hunt set are both extremely easy to dodge. I’ve crafted I don’t know how many Eternal sets for folks who are VERY disappointed when you see the set in action.

Eternal is still great since it ignores the root cooldown and is defensive to stop people chasing, not really for an offensive attack, though if animation canceling it still can be.

Tan9oSuccka · January 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

So true. Seeing proc’s now is laughable at best.

Defiler’s set? Truly absurd. This dumb-looking spindly alien emerges, then slowly walks a few feet and spews poison (and yes, generally where the enemy is not anymore.)

Red Mountain since the nerf looks instead like a slowly rising cauldron that ineffectively shoots bits of lava at nothing in particular.

Those are the only two that come to mind. PvP-wise I can say Selene’s and the Eternal Hunt set are both extremely easy to dodge. I’ve crafted I don’t know how many Eternal sets for folks who are VERY disappointed when you see the set in action.

Defilier is laughably bad. Almost as clueless as the bear in PvP.

Nightves · January 2018

I was initially going to give this set a try for my magDK, but after seeing this, Burning Spellweave it is then.

Carbonised · January 2018

Nightves wrote: »

I was initially going to give this set a try for my magDK, but after seeing this, Burning Spellweave it is then.

That's what I felt too, but honestly, save yourself the trouble of farming and stay away from it. Until they change the proc direction and/or time, it has no real use.

Joosef_Kivikilpi · January 2018

Mad Tinkerer comes out 2 months later... does more damage and stuns.

Really disappointed in Flame Blossom. Disappointed in Mad Tinkerer, too (although it's fun). Would love to see Frost Magic get more love besides Winterborn (used to be super cool when procs could crit) and Iceheart. Frost Magic looks so dope. But back to the topic... let's get more balance between all the elements.

Flame Blossom is a disappointment.

Lyserus · January 2018

I need that did not read meme and I need it now

Apache_Kid · January 2018

It seems like they can't decide whether they want Proc sets actually used or not. So many have been nerfed to the point of irrelevance while new ones created like Flame Blossom and others like defiler are never good from the get-go.

VaranisArano · January 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

It seems like they can't decide whether they want Proc sets actually used or not. So many have been nerfed to the point of irrelevance while new ones created like Flame Blossom and others like defiler are never good from the get-go.

They want proc sets to be used in PVE without being overpowered in PVP. Since not being overpowered in PVP is by far the harder thing to balance, the proc sets are going to underperform in PVE compared to a player with a good DPS based on a solid rotation.

jrgray93 · January 2018

Procs in general are a disappointment more often than not. There are few exceptions, such as skoria and burning spellweave. They almost always fall flat when they try to get creative with them.

SaintSubwayy · January 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

It seems like they can't decide whether they want Proc sets actually used or not. So many have been nerfed to the point of irrelevance while new ones created like Flame Blossom and others like defiler are never good from the get-go.

They want proc sets to be used in PVE without being overpowered in PVP. Since not being overpowered in PVP is by far the harder thing to balance, the proc sets are going to underperform in PVE compared to a player with a good DPS based on a solid rotation.

^ This

The kritnerf on Procsets only happend cause of PVP, same for the overall DMG nerf on certain Procsets.
in PVE there's no "too strong" since noone complains about it, and why shoul dthey..noone asks for DPS loss in PVE ^^

starlizard70ub17_ESO · January 2018

Thanks for you're insight, now I don't have to waste time farming this set.

kojou · January 2018

I've been holding on to good traited pieces of it in case they ever buff it, but I reached the same conclusion as OP.

A Proc needs to reliably hit a target or it is trash. It is already only a 10% chance with a 10 second cool-down. If you add the slight chance of the proc actually doing something useful then it goes in the same trash bin as the Essence Thief set.

I think if they at least made the flame proc in the shape of Elemental blockade (i.e. large rectangle) instead of a narrow path that would be a start. They could also increase the chance and reduce the cool-down so you shoot so many flame paths you don't care how many of them miss or maybe shoot in a 6 pointed star pattern so you have a chance of hitting something. Actually the star pattern would make more sense since it would be more like a "blossom" instead of an easily dodged narrow path.

There are so many sets like this though, that have never been buffed, so I don't have much hope for this one, but you never know, they may buff it to try to get a few more people interested in the DLC.

Carbonised · January 2018

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I think if they at least made the flame proc in the shape of Elemental blockade (i.e. large rectangle) instead of a narrow path that would be a start. They could also increase the chance and reduce the cool-down so you shoot so many flame paths you don't care how many of them miss or maybe shoot in a 6 pointed star pattern so you have a chance of hitting something. Actually the star pattern would make more sense since it would be more like a "blossom" instead of an easily dodged narrow path.

Actually that's a pretty great idea! Make it shoot out in every direction, like Skoria does, and other bosses do too. Not only could you potentially hit your main target, or use it as a halfway AOE, but it wouldn't do anything to increase your single target DPS or PvP damage, since the damage is the same, just potentially hitting your target easier. They still have the possibility to position themselves between the flame tongues to avoid the damage. And as you say, it fits the name Flame Blossom much better. Not to mention it wouldn't look as lackluster as it does right now.

I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for a change, but come on ZOS, make it happen, that's a great idea right there =p

Apache_Kid · January 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

It seems like they can't decide whether they want Proc sets actually used or not. So many have been nerfed to the point of irrelevance while new ones created like Flame Blossom and others like defiler are never good from the get-go.

They want proc sets to be used in PVE without being overpowered in PVP. Since not being overpowered in PVP is by far the harder thing to balance, the proc sets are going to underperform in PVE compared to a player with a good DPS based on a solid rotation.

Not hitting the target at all isn't "under-performing" it's straight up broken. No one is using this set in PvE so I don't really understand your argument.

This all stems from ZoS's refusal to give sets and abilities changes and accompanying tool-tip disclaimers that explain how they work differently in and out of Cyrodiil.

If, like you said, they want proc sets to be used in PvE without being over powered in PvP then they need to start balancing these things separately and have these armor sets have different statistics in PvE an PvP. Otherwise it is literally impossible to have to have it good in one field on play while still good in another but not *too good*.

Go look at any PvE builds online and see which builds use 5-piece proc sets. The only ones that are used are some 2 piece monster ones. No one uses 5-piece procs in PvE so if that is there goal there are doing a ***-poor job at achieving it.

Ladislao · January 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Go look at any PvE builds online and see which builds use 5-piece proc sets. The only ones that are used are some 2 piece monster ones. No one uses 5-piece procs in PvE so if that is there goal there are doing a ***-poor job at achieving it.

Burning Spellweave and Mechanical Acuity are pretty popular proc sets in PVE right now. The first things that came to mind.

VaranisArano · January 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

It seems like they can't decide whether they want Proc sets actually used or not. So many have been nerfed to the point of irrelevance while new ones created like Flame Blossom and others like defiler are never good from the get-go.

They want proc sets to be used in PVE without being overpowered in PVP. Since not being overpowered in PVP is by far the harder thing to balance, the proc sets are going to underperform in PVE compared to a player with a good DPS based on a solid rotation.

Not hitting the target at all isn't "under-performing" it's straight up broken. No one is using this set in PvE so I don't really understand your argument.

This all stems from ZoS's refusal to give sets and abilities changes and accompanying tool-tip disclaimers that explain how they work differently in and out of Cyrodiil.

If, like you said, they want proc sets to be used in PvE without being over powered in PvP then they need to start balancing these things separately and have these armor sets have different statistics in PvE an PvP. Otherwise it is literally impossible to have to have it good in one field on play while still good in another but not *too good*.

Go look at any PvE builds online and see which builds use 5-piece proc sets. The only ones that are used are some 2 piece monster ones. No one uses 5-piece procs in PvE so if that is there goal there are doing a ***-poor job at achieving it.

No one uses proc sets in PVE anymore because a good player with a solid rotation will benefit more from non-proc sets bonuses (excluding monster sets from this). ZOS could change that by buffing proc sets, but then proc sets become much more powerful in PVP which they've been trying to avoid. Until ZOS balances PVP and PVE separately, that's not going to change - and ZOS has steadfastly resisted balancing PVP and PVE separately.

Now, I suspect Flameblossom needs a fix and that it wouldn't be particularly unbalanced in PVP even if it did get fixed. I'm talking about proc sets in PVP and PVE in general.

zyk · January 2018

Flame Blossom can be effective in both PVP and PVE; though, I doubt it's anywhere close to competitive for PVE raid DPS, but what 5 piece burst damage proc set is? I used a PVP DK build for PVE dungeons during the group finder event and was surprised that it was pretty decent. It's not at all difficult to have it hit reliably.

The key is to remain aware of the proc and to control it by having it active on only one bar.

There are other considerations as well. It's not only about the 5 piece bonus. The 4 piece bonus is very strong.

I'm not in favor of changing this set. I think it's interesting, it can provide strong burst and can be very effective when used thoughtfully. This game has dozens of sets. For that diversity to matter, some must be niche or require greater awareness to be useful.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Now, I suspect Flameblossom needs a fix and that it wouldn't be particularly unbalanced in PVP even if it did get fixed. I'm talking about proc sets in PVP and PVE in general.

It is only half a wroblel away from being OP in PVP. It would only require a small tweak for it to become so.

Apache_Kid · January 2018

Ladislao wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Go look at any PvE builds online and see which builds use 5-piece proc sets. The only ones that are used are some 2 piece monster ones. No one uses 5-piece procs in PvE so if that is there goal there are doing a ***-poor job at achieving it.

Burning Spellweave and Mechanical Acuity are pretty popular proc sets in PVE right now. The first things that came to mind.

Mechanical acuity is being used? I was not aware it was any good haven't used it myself.

And I should be more clear but I'm referring more to sets like Flame Blossom and Defiler that are supposed to do damage themselves based on their effect bonus for the 5 pieces. No one uses like red mountain or Defiler or flame blossom at all becsuse they dont work. If making them viable means they would be too OP for PvP then there is an inherent issue with the decision by ZoS to continue to not balance PvE and PvP separately for different item sets and abilities.

Apache_Kid · January 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

It seems like they can't decide whether they want Proc sets actually used or not. So many have been nerfed to the point of irrelevance while new ones created like Flame Blossom and others like defiler are never good from the get-go.

They want proc sets to be used in PVE without being overpowered in PVP. Since not being overpowered in PVP is by far the harder thing to balance, the proc sets are going to underperform in PVE compared to a player with a good DPS based on a solid rotation.

Not hitting the target at all isn't "under-performing" it's straight up broken. No one is using this set in PvE so I don't really understand your argument.

This all stems from ZoS's refusal to give sets and abilities changes and accompanying tool-tip disclaimers that explain how they work differently in and out of Cyrodiil.

If, like you said, they want proc sets to be used in PvE without being over powered in PvP then they need to start balancing these things separately and have these armor sets have different statistics in PvE an PvP. Otherwise it is literally impossible to have to have it good in one field on play while still good in another but not *too good*.

Go look at any PvE builds online and see which builds use 5-piece proc sets. The only ones that are used are some 2 piece monster ones. No one uses 5-piece procs in PvE so if that is there goal there are doing a ***-poor job at achieving it.

No one uses proc sets in PVE anymore because a good player with a solid rotation will benefit more from non-proc sets bonuses (excluding monster sets from this). ZOS could change that by buffing proc sets, but then proc sets become much more powerful in PVP which they've been trying to avoid. Until ZOS balances PVP and PVE separately, that's not going to change - and ZOS has steadfastly resisted balancing PVP and PVE separately.

Now, I suspect Flameblossom needs a fix and that it wouldn't be particularly unbalanced in PVP even if it did get fixed. I'm talking about proc sets in PVP and PVE in general.

Yeah and the whole balancing separately thing is my overall point. But I guess I'm yelling at a wall on that issue basically.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2018

All they had to do is make proc sets not scale off of mighty or elemental expert CP and then let them crit. Most people in PvP run high crit resist anyway and allowing these sets to crit would make them more useful in PvE.

But ZOS just grabbed any old solution and now we have tons of ineffective proc sets.

Nemesis7884 · January 2018

i mostly use proc sets for the effects :-)

but yeah, the flame blossom, the mad tinkerer are both pretty meh.... the defiler could be cool in theory but it just doesn't work - to make the set viable they need to increase the proc chance to around 8% and make the hunger appear faster and hit much more reliably all enemies and potentially increase the damage by around 1-2k

Qwazzy · January 2018

The 4 piece works well paired with another 5 pc and a monster set. The penetration set bonus is a hard one to find.

Carbonised · January 2018

Qwazz wrote: »

The 4 piece works well paired with another 5 pc and a monster set. The penetration set bonus is a hard one to find.

I'm talking about the proc though. Also kinda doubt it's gonna be better than 4 pcs aether. 5 % dam plus crit and spell damage. And I already get plenty of pen through sharp weapons and light armor passive.

kojou · January 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Qwazz wrote: »

The 4 piece works well paired with another 5 pc and a monster set. The penetration set bonus is a hard one to find.

I'm talking about the proc though. Also kinda doubt it's gonna be better than 4 pcs aether. 5 % dam plus crit and spell damage. And I already get plenty of pen through sharp weapons and light armor passive.

I agree...

With a typical Magicka DK setup you are running 3 or 4 pieces of a set that gives Minor Slayer and VMA Staff Meaning that the penetration buff for Flame Blossom needs to be better than having Minor Slayer and even then since it is the 4 piece bonus you won't have it up when you cast whatever is on your bar with your VMA staff whereas Minor Slayer will have 100% up-time since it is on your 3 piece bonus. That's before I even consider the fact that my Moondancer and Infallible Aether jewelry is gold...

Burning Spellweave despite its nerf is still really good on a Magicka DK, and IMO it will require a huge buff to Flame Blossom to supplant it, or make it more favorable than running a 2 piece Monster set (i.e. Grothdar) + Minor Slayer set.

Qwazzy · January 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Qwazz wrote: »

The 4 piece works well paired with another 5 pc and a monster set. The penetration set bonus is a hard one to find.

I'm talking about the proc though. Also kinda doubt it's gonna be better than 4 pcs aether. 5 % dam plus crit and spell damage. And I already get plenty of pen through sharp weapons and light armor passive.

From a PvP perspective it's a satisfactory 4 piece if you're looking for some added pen. For PvE not worth the time spent (4 piece or 5 piece) agreed.

kvlou79 · January 2018

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I've been holding on to good traited pieces of it in case they ever buff it, but I reached the same conclusion as OP.

A Proc needs to reliably hit a target or it is trash. It is already only a 10% chance with a 10 second cool-down. If you add the slight chance of the proc actually doing something useful then it goes in the same trash bin as the Essence Thief set.

I think if they at least made the flame proc in the shape of Elemental blockade (i.e. large rectangle) instead of a narrow path that would be a start. They could also increase the chance and reduce the cool-down so you shoot so many flame paths you don't care how many of them miss or maybe shoot in a 6 pointed star pattern so you have a chance of hitting something. Actually the star pattern would make more sense since it would be more like a "blossom" instead of an easily dodged narrow path.

There are so many sets like this though, that have never been buffed, so I don't have much hope for this one, but you never know, they may buff it to try to get a few more people interested in the DLC.

/Still holding out hope for Essence Thief

radiostar · January 2018

I tried it with spc to heal random normals and it was just meh, definitely nothing special.

Neyane · January 2018

Tried it on my Magdk a while back....it is totally meh. Which is such a shame. Same with defiler... first thought "oh awesome" and when it procs "oh no". So many sets are useless because of the proc nerfs. I love these sets the most on paper but in practice they are such a let down.