Rianai wrote: »

Sets like Rattlecage provide buffs that can be obtained via various means with equal efficiency. Those sets are an option among many others and no source of those buffs outperforms all others. SPC and similar sets provide unique buffs that can't really be compared to sets that provide minor or major buffs (but since SPC is BiS for every single PvE heal build and also strong in PvP group play it could actually be considered OP, with the only downside it that it is only useful for dedicated healer builds due to the proc conditions).

But sets like Riposte or Duroks outperform pretty much any other source of those potent debuffs with little to no counterplay. And no, not attacking and purging isn't viable in actual combat for reasons that have been stated already.

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It's so annoying when people complain about Wizard's Riposte, without also complaining about offensive sets.

Why aren't you complaining about Slimecraw? It's a 2 piece set with permanent up-time on Minor Berserk (8% damage), without any condition of having to be attacked and crit against for it to activate.

At least be consistent with your complaining.

It's different to Slimecraw because it applies to many opponents and your whole team benefits from it, not just you. It would be similar to Slimecraw, if Slimecraw gave Minor Berserk to every friendly around you. Or if the debuff from Wiz Riposte only reduced damage directed towards the wearer instead of everyone, like Minor Protection.

Wizard's Riposte falls into the category of AoE debuff sets. Like Fassala's Guile, Durok's Bane, Knightmare and Healing Mage.

Quite frankly, nowhere near as bad as the first two in that list. One is literally an AoE debuff (lol) and the other procs on any type of damage, so basically always. And dealing reduced damage is not the end of the world, many skills maim you already you can still kill people fine. But if you can't heal....

Fassalla's Guile and Durok's Bane really aren't as strong as you're making them seem due to the way that PVP is played.

PVP is often about offensive and defensive transitions, and when experienced players get defensive it usually involves a cleanse that completely wipes the defile from Durok's, rendering it useless to the opponent, who is now trying to burst you without Major Defile. The set you should probably be more concerned about is Cyrodiil's Crest, which allows the enemy to control when they want to tag you with Major Defile, and do so with any melee hit at any time they want in their rotation. Yes, it has a 5 second cooldown, but it's much more lethal when used correctly in a fight (example: right after you cleanse and think you have a few seconds of breathing room).

The Minor Defile from Fasalla's isn't all that strong/rare. You can get tagged with that from a weapon proc, or even a poison skill. No big deal. So if the enemy wants to burn through resources spamming gap close to keep the range-limited Minor Defile from Fasalla's on you, then there's a good chance they'll be low on resources when you counter.

Edit: If you'd like a better comparison than Wizard's Riposte and Slimecraw, then perhaps group-based skills like Igenous Weapons and Expansive Frost Cloak make more sense. Although, if we're just talking about sets then we could also throw in sets like Spell Power Cure, Meritorious Service, and Powerful Assault.

There is one class that has a somewhat reliable purge and at least for stam builds that aren't templars, there is no accessible on demand purge whatsoever.

What do you mean by "somewhat reliable?" And every class has access to the support skill line purge.

An on demand purge that is likely to actually to remove the critical debuff. If you actually understood what I wrote you should be aware I mentioned Efficient Purge myself indirectly; but it's very expensive and removes only 2 debuffs. Blue Betty is free but removes only one.
You literally said "PVP is often about offensive and defensive transitions, and when experienced players get defensive it usually involves a cleanse that completely wipes the defile from Durok's, rendering it useless to the opponent, who is now trying to burst you without Major Defile." This is simply untrue because few builds actually involve a purge in the first place.

What are you talking about? You said, "There is one class that has a somewhat reliable purge and at least for stam builds that aren't templars, there is no accessible on demand purge whatsoever." It sounds like you are saying that there isn't any purge for stamina builds outside of Templar. Yes there is, and it's in the support skill line. It's expensive and costs magicka, but stamina builds can absolutely make use of it. You are aware that stamina characters can cast skills that use magicka, no?

And I don't care how many total builds use a purge. It's a smart to purge, or at least have someone doing it for you. Purging is a great counter to some of the debuffs being talked about in this thread.

Vaoh wrote: »

Wizard’s Riposte is kinda broken.
Seventh Legion is kinda broken.
Armor of Truth is kinda broken.
Ravager is kinda broken.
Hunding’s Rage is kinda broken.
Julianos is kinda broken.
Durok’s Bane is kinda broken.
Marksman’s is kinda broken.
Senche’s Bite is kinda broken.
Kagrenac’s Hope is kinda broken.
Night Mother’s Gaze is kinda broken.
Worm’s Raiment is kinda broken.
Shieldbreaker is kinda broken.
Spell Power Cure is kinda broken.
Rattlecage is kinda broken.
Vicious Ophidian is kinda broken.
Infallible Mage is kinda broken.
Moondancer is kinda broken.
Master Architect is kinda broken.
War Machine is kinda broken.
Alkosh is kinda broken.
Sunderflame is kinda broken.
Morag Tong is kinda broken.
Werewolf Hide is kinda broken.
Agility is kinda broken.
Willpower is kinda broken.
Blood Spawn is kinda broken.
Troll King is kinda broken.
Slimecraw is kinda broken.
Ilambris is kinda broken.
Valkyn Skoria is kinda broken.
Nerien’eth is kinda broken.
Heem Jas’ is kinda broken.
Plague Doctor is kinda broken.
Bone Pirate is kinda broken.

Stam DK is kinda broken.
Mag DK is kinda broken.
Stam NB is kinda broken.
Mag NB is kinda broken.
Stam Sorcs are is kinda broken.
Mag Sorcs is kinda broken.
Stam Templar is kinda broken.
Mag Templar is kinda broken.
Stam Warden is kinda broken.
Mag Warden is kinda broken.

Did I get everything? Everything is broken nowadays it seems.....

BohnT wrote: »

A nerf to wizard riposte would include 3 things.
First individual cd for all enemies
Second reduce the duration to 2 seconds and set the CD to 2.5 seconds
Third don't let it proc on shields

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It's so annoying when people complain about Wizard's Riposte, without also complaining about offensive sets.

Why aren't you complaining about Slimecraw? It's a 2 piece set with permanent up-time on Minor Berserk (8% damage), without any condition of having to be attacked and crit against for it to activate.

At least be consistent with your complaining.

It's different to Slimecraw because it applies to many opponents and your whole team benefits from it, not just you. It would be similar to Slimecraw, if Slimecraw gave Minor Berserk to every friendly around you. Or if the debuff from Wiz Riposte only reduced damage directed towards the wearer instead of everyone, like Minor Protection.

Wizard's Riposte falls into the category of AoE debuff sets. Like Fassala's Guile, Durok's Bane, Knightmare and Healing Mage.

Quite frankly, nowhere near as bad as the first two in that list. One is literally an AoE debuff (lol) and the other procs on any type of damage, so basically always. And dealing reduced damage is not the end of the world, many skills maim you already you can still kill people fine. But if you can't heal....

Fassalla's Guile and Durok's Bane really aren't as strong as you're making them seem due to the way that PVP is played.

PVP is often about offensive and defensive transitions, and when experienced players get defensive it usually involves a cleanse that completely wipes the defile from Durok's, rendering it useless to the opponent, who is now trying to burst you without Major Defile. The set you should probably be more concerned about is Cyrodiil's Crest, which allows the enemy to control when they want to tag you with Major Defile, and do so with any melee hit at any time they want in their rotation. Yes, it has a 5 second cooldown, but it's much more lethal when used correctly in a fight (example: right after you cleanse and think you have a few seconds of breathing room).

The Minor Defile from Fasalla's isn't all that strong/rare. You can get tagged with that from a weapon proc, or even a poison skill. No big deal. So if the enemy wants to burn through resources spamming gap close to keep the range-limited Minor Defile from Fasalla's on you, then there's a good chance they'll be low on resources when you counter.

Edit: If you'd like a better comparison than Wizard's Riposte and Slimecraw, then perhaps group-based skills like Igenous Weapons and Expansive Frost Cloak make more sense. Although, if we're just talking about sets then we could also throw in sets like Spell Power Cure, Meritorious Service, and Powerful Assault.

There is one class that has a somewhat reliable purge and at least for stam builds that aren't templars, there is no accessible on demand purge whatsoever.

What do you mean by "somewhat reliable?" And every class has access to the support skill line purge.

An on demand purge that is likely to actually to remove the critical debuff. If you actually understood what I wrote you should be aware I mentioned Efficient Purge myself indirectly; but it's very expensive and removes only 2 debuffs. Blue Betty is free but removes only one.
You literally said "PVP is often about offensive and defensive transitions, and when experienced players get defensive it usually involves a cleanse that completely wipes the defile from Durok's, rendering it useless to the opponent, who is now trying to burst you without Major Defile." This is simply untrue because few builds actually involve a purge in the first place.

What are you talking about? You said, "There is one class that has a somewhat reliable purge and at least for stam builds that aren't templars, there is no accessible on demand purge whatsoever." It sounds like you are saying that there isn't any purge for stamina builds outside of Templar. Yes there is, and it's in the support skill line. It's expensive and costs magicka, but stamina builds can absolutely make use of it. You are aware that stamina characters can cast skills that use magicka, no?

And I don't care how many total builds use a purge. It's a smart to purge, or at least have someone doing it for you. Purging is a great counter to some of the debuffs being talked about in this thread.

It's a very poor decision to use the alliance purge skill in almost every scenario

Its a skill for a dedicated group healer for group PvP, not for solo play, as has been said by multiple people now, its not skill used by a lot of people for obvious reasons.

@GrumpyDuckling with the speed of wish Wizards and Duroks can be reapplied on to you, using Purge, even efficient purge will force you to run out of magicka very quickly if you intend to always purge the negative effects off of you. And if you only use it sometimes then whats the point? The debuff is gonna be on you all the time then anyway. The way that Wizards and Duroks is right now, Purge is not an acceptable counter to them.

The discussion about purging started when someone was voicing concern about not being able to heal. I mentioned that Durok's wasn't as big a deal as people are making it out to be because it's as simple as purging it away once and not attacking the Durok's user while you are being defensive/focused on (because it requires the user to be attacked to activate). In that scenario, Durok's is less effective than enemy skills which apply Major Defile, and even the set Cyrodiil's Crest - so I don't understand the complaining about Durok's.

Wizard's Riposte complaints just don't make sense unless people want to also complain about sets like Rattlecage, Dreugh King Slayer, Slimecraw, Spell Power Cure, Powerful Assualt, and Meritorious Service. Or even skills like Igneous Weapons and and Frost Cloak.

paulsimonps wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It's so annoying when people complain about Wizard's Riposte, without also complaining about offensive sets.

Why aren't you complaining about Slimecraw? It's a 2 piece set with permanent up-time on Minor Berserk (8% damage), without any condition of having to be attacked and crit against for it to activate.

At least be consistent with your complaining.

It's different to Slimecraw because it applies to many opponents and your whole team benefits from it, not just you. It would be similar to Slimecraw, if Slimecraw gave Minor Berserk to every friendly around you. Or if the debuff from Wiz Riposte only reduced damage directed towards the wearer instead of everyone, like Minor Protection.

Wizard's Riposte falls into the category of AoE debuff sets. Like Fassala's Guile, Durok's Bane, Knightmare and Healing Mage.

Quite frankly, nowhere near as bad as the first two in that list. One is literally an AoE debuff (lol) and the other procs on any type of damage, so basically always. And dealing reduced damage is not the end of the world, many skills maim you already you can still kill people fine. But if you can't heal....

Fassalla's Guile and Durok's Bane really aren't as strong as you're making them seem due to the way that PVP is played.

PVP is often about offensive and defensive transitions, and when experienced players get defensive it usually involves a cleanse that completely wipes the defile from Durok's, rendering it useless to the opponent, who is now trying to burst you without Major Defile. The set you should probably be more concerned about is Cyrodiil's Crest, which allows the enemy to control when they want to tag you with Major Defile, and do so with any melee hit at any time they want in their rotation. Yes, it has a 5 second cooldown, but it's much more lethal when used correctly in a fight (example: right after you cleanse and think you have a few seconds of breathing room).

The Minor Defile from Fasalla's isn't all that strong/rare. You can get tagged with that from a weapon proc, or even a poison skill. No big deal. So if the enemy wants to burn through resources spamming gap close to keep the range-limited Minor Defile from Fasalla's on you, then there's a good chance they'll be low on resources when you counter.

Edit: If you'd like a better comparison than Wizard's Riposte and Slimecraw, then perhaps group-based skills like Igenous Weapons and Expansive Frost Cloak make more sense. Although, if we're just talking about sets then we could also throw in sets like Spell Power Cure, Meritorious Service, and Powerful Assault.

There is one class that has a somewhat reliable purge and at least for stam builds that aren't templars, there is no accessible on demand purge whatsoever.

What do you mean by "somewhat reliable?" And every class has access to the support skill line purge.

An on demand purge that is likely to actually to remove the critical debuff. If you actually understood what I wrote you should be aware I mentioned Efficient Purge myself indirectly; but it's very expensive and removes only 2 debuffs. Blue Betty is free but removes only one.
You literally said "PVP is often about offensive and defensive transitions, and when experienced players get defensive it usually involves a cleanse that completely wipes the defile from Durok's, rendering it useless to the opponent, who is now trying to burst you without Major Defile." This is simply untrue because few builds actually involve a purge in the first place.

What are you talking about? You said, "There is one class that has a somewhat reliable purge and at least for stam builds that aren't templars, there is no accessible on demand purge whatsoever." It sounds like you are saying that there isn't any purge for stamina builds outside of Templar. Yes there is, and it's in the support skill line. It's expensive and costs magicka, but stamina builds can absolutely make use of it. You are aware that stamina characters can cast skills that use magicka, no?

And I don't care how many total builds use a purge. It's a smart to purge, or at least have someone doing it for you. Purging is a great counter to some of the debuffs being talked about in this thread.

It's a very poor decision to use the alliance purge skill in almost every scenario

Its a skill for a dedicated group healer for group PvP, not for solo play, as has been said by multiple people now, its not skill used by a lot of people for obvious reasons.

@GrumpyDuckling with the speed of wish Wizards and Duroks can be reapplied on to you, using Purge, even efficient purge will force you to run out of magicka very quickly if you intend to always purge the negative effects off of you. And if you only use it sometimes then whats the point? The debuff is gonna be on you all the time then anyway. The way that Wizards and Duroks is right now, Purge is not an acceptable counter to them.

The discussion about purging started when someone was voicing concern about not being able to heal. I mentioned that Durok's wasn't as big a deal as people are making it out to be because it's as simple as purging it away once and not attacking the Durok's user while you are being defensive/focused on (because it requires the user to be attacked to activate). In that scenario, Durok's is less effective than enemy skills which apply Major Defile, and even the set Cyrodiil's Crest - so I don't understand the complaining about Durok's.

Wizard's Riposte complaints just don't make sense unless people want to also complain about sets like Rattlecage, Dreugh King Slayer, Slimecraw, Spell Power Cure, Powerful Assualt, and Meritorious Service. Or even skills like Igneous Weapons and and Frost Cloak.

Do please explain why those things, sets and skills are in your mind grouped with Wizard's Riposte in what should be or should not be complained about? How do they correlate? The 100% up time? You do know that even without those sets the Major buff sets are really easy to keep up 100% of the time anyway with skill normally used by a lot of people. The minor maim is significantly harder to keep 100% up time on in that big of an AoE, it will effect anyone that hits you, one or two people wearing that in a zerg and anyone attacking the zerg with any type of AoE will be effected. Hard to compare those imo.

teladoy wrote: »

I will add that the befoul CP is overperforming but with defile from so many different sets and abilities why is it everyone complains about the same set ... Personally I just think you need something to play other than your own ability to think outside of the meta