Where is the Ying and the Yang ? The Give and Take ?

thedude33 · December 2017

I am at a bit of a loss to understand exactly how some players can turn their class into superman. Not a whine, just an observation

I get that you can create a supertank that is very difficult to kill, if at all. They do no damage though so aren't a threat to kill anything else. They have a role in pvp and it makes sense.

You can go the other direction and make a full offensive character. They do amazing damage, but are squishier than Charmin.

Lately though I have been seeing a combination of the best of both worlds. Super bursty with super defense. They have always been around but seem much more common now. Just last night ported into a tower. Went outside and saw a lone enemy just outside the guards range. He waited until 3 people walked out the door and started pulling the guards. All 3 players went after him. So he had 5 guards and 3 players on him. Was never in threat of death. Like a Bruce Lee movie he focused on 1 player at a time and pretty much vaporized them. They released and next time 4 players plus guards went after him. I lobbed a few snipes at him which he easily dodged ( thanks Miat). He proceeded to kill all 4.

It got to a point where no one would leave the tower. Even when there was 5+ players there. Likely they(we) are all potatoes but still. The guy never died and eventually got bored and left.

A bit demoralizing to face something like that. A player that doesn't take damage and yet can 3 shot you. It's becoming much more common.

I know, get gud. Apparently a lot of players need to get gud.

Waffennacht · December 2017

thedude33 wrote: »

I know, get gud. Apparently a lot of players need to get gud.

98% of the players are not good at PvP

thedude33 · December 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

I know, get gud. Apparently a lot of players need to get gud.

98% of the players are not good at PvP

You know that number isn't possible.

Thogard · December 2017

1. Use defile on him/her
2. Heal your group mates
3. Attack the same targets as your group mates at the same time as your group mates

Waffennacht · December 2017

thedude33 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

I know, get gud. Apparently a lot of players need to get gud.

98% of the players are not good at PvP

You know that number isn't possible.

Lol. It's definitely an estimate! Lmfao. A lot of players are very bad or just decent.

Literally though, about 1 of 100 know wtf they're doing - I mean really know. Like how to LoS, how to not get separated and burst down by a player using LoS. Know that area denial is good for choke points. That mobility is as important as damage or survival.

Hell most players don't even run with a hard cC!

Morbash · December 2017

Sounds like the opposing player was more experienced and better equipped.

This situation sounds familiar btw.

I assume you're on PC since you mentioned Miat's. Which server? NA or EU?

If on NA and you can remember the player's name, PM me. I have a hunch I'll recognize it.

thedude33 · December 2017

NA

pmed

CyrusArya · December 2017

There is not a single player in this game who would win a 1v3 against players in the same tier or backet as themselves. Situations like the one you described happen when there is a gulf of skill between the 1 and the X. This isn’t a problem with the game, it’s a problem with the players. He isn’t taking damage cus the X doesn’t know how to properly deal damage. He can three shot because the X doesn’t know how to properly mitigate damage.

The give/take is this. That same player could either be significantly tankier, or significantly burstier.They have just found a balance that works for them. But it’s all contingent on being at the right place at the right time, against the right group of players to pull off such a feat. While he/she saw success this time, there are other instances where this build would have failed but others would’ve succeeded. And it can be done on any class or playstyle- just depends on who you’re fighting. For the record tho, could you share what class the player was on?

And yes. A lot of players need to get gud. All it would have taken is one equally skilled opponent to completely tear down his show in the tower.

Drachenfier · December 2017

In swtor, three bad players will kill a single amazing player. This is the only game where I see all these one man armies wrecking everything in their path. What that tells me is that gear/cp plays a bigger role than most want to admit.

Betsararie · December 2017

Yin*

Thogard · December 2017

Drachenfier wrote: »

In swtor, three bad players will kill a single amazing player. This is the only game where I see all these one man armies wrecking everything in their path. What that tells me is that gear/cp plays a bigger role than most want to admit.

No. it tells you the opposite. because in this game, gear and CP are really easy to get. There's no "i win" gear.

This is a very skill based game. Every other element of it has been neutered.

Biro123 · December 2017

See, in this game, everyone has access to decent heals mostly via hots. So to get a kill you need to be able out-burst those hots with some way to pressure between bursts to live that recov.
That is skill, not gear.

In this game, you need to use active defences. It isn't all based on mitigation stats combined with a %chance to auto block and/or dodge.
Again, that is skill.

In this game, you need to get your bursts through their defences. Usually with a well-timed cc.
That again is skill, not gear.

ESO is the least gear-based PvP mmo I've played, and is one of the main reasons I'm still playing it.

Subversus · December 2017

Drachenfier wrote: »

In swtor, three bad players will kill a single amazing player. This is the only game where I see all these one man armies wrecking everything in their path. What that tells me is that gear/cp plays a bigger role than most want to admit.

This is mostly because you can only CC break once before it goes on a 2m cooldown, and classes do not have heals unless they are actual healer mirrors.

And that's simply not true, I've 1v4d good players in ranked arenas before, let alone 3 bad ones. That's pretty easy if you're on the right class.

Zordrage · December 2017

This happens if you don't put CDs on your abilities and the only thing that keeps your ability spamming in check are seemingly Infinite resources that if you manage well is actually infinite....

Xsorus · December 2017

Drachenfier wrote: »

In swtor, three bad players will kill a single amazing player. This is the only game where I see all these one man armies wrecking everything in their path. What that tells me is that gear/cp plays a bigger role than most want to admit.

That's class balance, there's been times in SWTOR where i've murdered multiple players with ease...

and this isn't the only game...Valkyries for example and Reavers in DAOC could murder multiple people.

TheDoomsdayMonster · December 2017

thedude33 wrote: »

I am at a bit of a loss to understand exactly how some players can turn their class into superman. Not a whine, just an observation

I get that you can create a supertank that is very difficult to kill, if at all. They do no damage though so aren't a threat to kill anything else. They have a role in pvp and it makes sense.

You can go the other direction and make a full offensive character. They do amazing damage, but are squishier than Charmin.

Lately though I have been seeing a combination of the best of both worlds. Super bursty with super defense. They have always been around but seem much more common now. Just last night ported into a tower. Went outside and saw a lone enemy just outside the guards range. He waited until 3 people walked out the door and started pulling the guards. All 3 players went after him. So he had 5 guards and 3 players on him. Was never in threat of death. Like a Bruce Lee movie he focused on 1 player at a time and pretty much vaporized them. They released and next time 4 players plus guards went after him. I lobbed a few snipes at him which he easily dodged ( thanks Miat). He proceeded to kill all 4.

It got to a point where no one would leave the tower. Even when there was 5+ players there. Likely they(we) are all potatoes but still. The guy never died and eventually got bored and left.

A bit demoralizing to face something like that. A player that doesn't take damage and yet can 3 shot you. It's becoming much more common.

I know, get gud. Apparently a lot of players need to get gud.

Well if he's using Miat's then he is cheating right off the bat as far as I am concerned...

Just switch to console...

Yes, we have players that seem like they are gods as well, but atleast you can comfort yourself with the knowledge that our super players are not receiving CPU assistance during a fight...

ak_pvp · December 2017

We need more one man armies. Killing all the idiots who try to beat on a single player and spam one button.

Pity only really the warden can do it consistently, and a bigger pity when decent players get forced to group due to constant nerfs and bigger zergs,

lao · December 2017

Drachenfier wrote: »

In swtor, three bad players will kill a single amazing player. This is the only game where I see all these one man armies wrecking everything in their path. What that tells me is that gear/cp plays a bigger role than most want to admit.

wrong, it means that this game has a higher skill ceiling than those other mmos you speak of. when 3 bad players can kill an amazing player it means that the game limits the amazing player to perform as good as he normally could. it has absolutely nothing to do with cp as most of those potatoes the good players in eso fight 1vX are also capped cp. they are just much worse players.

lao · December 2017

Zordrage wrote: »

This happens if you don't put CDs on your abilities and the only thing that keeps your ability spamming in check are seemingly Infinite resources that if you manage well is actually infinite....

and that is a good thing cos it is skill based.

kessik221 · December 2017

The seemingly invincible builds are just players that can pvp. If you give those same players the same skill cap with an extreme end they would do just as well. That's the major argument against cp pvp. CP is a crutch and just increases the time it takes to fight. If you can't pvp without cp most likely you couldnt pvp with it either. you just don't die in 2 minutes.

Smmokkee · December 2017

Drachenfier wrote: »

In swtor, three bad players will kill a single amazing player. This is the only game where I see all these one man armies wrecking everything in their path. What that tells me is that gear/cp plays a bigger role than most want to admit.

People do the same in no cp pvp all the time and the players really do have to be pretty bad to get stomped like that or just over zealous because they believe they have the guy dead to rights. Either way if someone similarly skilled jumped into that fight that player probably would have died.

kaithuzar · December 2017

The only instance I'll say of it not being "all skill", is when you have something, typically a class or build, that's just broke af

When 90% of the forums are voting warden op, and it takes 2 good players about 10 minutes to kill one something is wrong.
However I haven't played in a while so maybe it's not as bad since they can't heavy armor + shuffle anymore.

Ragnarock41 · December 2017

kaithuzar wrote: »

The only instance I'll say of it not being "all skill", is when you have something, typically a class or build, that's just broke af

When 90% of the forums are voting warden op, and it takes 2 good players about 10 minutes to kill one something is wrong.
However I haven't played in a while so maybe it's not as bad since they can't heavy armor + shuffle anymore.

they don't need shuffle. They all run momentum because they got tons of ways to heal.
Shuffle nerf only screwed stamDk.

Speed_Kills · December 2017

Tower farms are the best. Basically, if you aren't confident in your own skills or the skills of the friends you're planning on coming into the tower with, mount up and ride off into the sunset and avoid another death that day.

Datthaw · December 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

There is not a single player in this game who would win a 1v3 against players in the same tier or backet as themselves. Situations like the one you described happen when there is a gulf of skill between the 1 and the X. This isn’t a problem with the game, it’s a problem with the players. He isn’t taking damage cus the X doesn’t know how to properly deal damage. He can three shot because the X doesn’t know how to properly mitigate damage.

The give/take is this. That same player could either be significantly tankier, or significantly burstier.They have just found a balance that works for them. But it’s all contingent on being at the right place at the right time, against the right group of players to pull off such a feat. While he/she saw success this time, there are other instances where this build would have failed but others would’ve succeeded. And it can be done on any class or playstyle- just depends on who you’re fighting. For the record tho, could you share what class the player was on?

And yes. A lot of players need to get gud. All it would have taken is one equally skilled opponent to completely tear down his show in the tower.

This is so true, I see alot of people boast about 1vxing and it just seems so shallow because you can almost never 1vx actually good players who knoknow their build and class mechanics

Kolache · December 2017

ESO's class/skill/resource design has always allowed people to "bend the rules" when it comes to building and playing characters. It really has to be near impossible to balance. Consider this, while other MMOs like WoW and SWTOR simplified/streamlined things like talent trees and skill lines, ESO actually increased customization with tons of set bonuses and CPs.

There are a lot of things that make a player better at PvP though. Knowledge is probably one of the biggest ones--knowing all classes/skills/passives/sets/mechanics. Things like knowing how to manipulate the terrain, which addons to use, how to optimize combat through clipping animations, and stocking up on the right consumables. I suppose some of these are as close to "skill" as you will see in an MMO.

This isn't praise for veteran PvP'ers though. The truth is there are broken aspects to this game that people exploit. There is a constant battle between ZOS and players to find/abuse/bandaid issues that will create mathematical impossibilities in PvP (and PvE but we're talking about PvP). There is just a lot of freedom and a lot of variables that comes with a price.

IMO, the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. There are newer people that bite off more than they can chew and really wouldn't (maybe even shouldn't?) be equipped, in any aspect, to handle veteran players. There's also some crazy broken sh** out there.

newtinmpls · December 2017

thedude33 wrote: »

A bit demoralizing to face something like that. .

I spend 5 seconds going "wow, you are really good" then I go do something else.

PvP isn't fun for me 'cause I just die die die and I haven't figured out what it is that makes them light years ahead. And the process of trying hasn't been fun so I just figure PvP isn't for me.

That's okay, other parts of the game are fun for me.

Waffennacht · December 2017

.

newtinmpls wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

A bit demoralizing to face something like that. .

I spend 5 seconds going "wow, you are really good" then I go do something else.

PvP isn't fun for me 'cause I just die die die and I haven't figured out what it is that makes them light years ahead. And the process of trying hasn't been fun so I just figure PvP isn't for me.

That's okay, other parts of the game are fun for me.

I PvE'd for months before hand, learned to weave and AC via that which is an absolute must in PvP.

Then I played PvP, from that I learned mechanics and resource management. Aka you'll need stamina as a magicka build to CC break on cool down. In fact it's to the point where I auto CC break every 6-8 secs if I need to or not lol

Then came how to LoS, how to recognize what builds I'm facing - there are builds you cannot win against with what you are using - recognizing this while you still have enough resources to retreat is crucial.

Then came the recognition of mobility such as snare removal, expedition for open world.

Now it's all about specifications, like I will not expect my BG build to do very well in duels nor keep defense. My duel build won't do well in BGs, and a group build tailored for his role etc.

PvE players with their complicated rotations amaze me

Trashs1 · December 2017

...or u fighted against the current emperror. they wreck alot more than 3 players and 5 guards at the same time

thedude33 · December 2017

Trashs1 wrote: »

...or u fighted against the current emperror. they wreck alot more than 3 players and 5 guards at the same time

I never considered that. Good point. How do you tell if they are Emp ?

Sevn · December 2017

Drachenfier wrote: »

In swtor, three bad players will kill a single amazing player. This is the only game where I see all these one man armies wrecking everything in their path. What that tells me is that gear/cp plays a bigger role than most want to admit.

True or not you're in for a rude awakening if you think players that take pvp seriously in eeso are ever going to acknowledge their success to anything other than pure player skill. Acknowledging anything other than that diminishes and dulls the gratification they seek from beating another human player.