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Kinda tired of mega heals and shields
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Ocelot9x✭✭✭✭✭So
Mag sorc are not op,currently I consider the the bottom of mag specs
Magplars are easy. Tons of damage and no need to get good since you can just hold block/purge/bold/mist form for an unlimited amount of time. Same for magdk but more damage less survivability.
Then
Stamina warden is the only stamina spec in line with this meta,so the only one worth playing. Stam dks /stam sorc are a jokes ,stam nb are good at running away waiting for more guys to come.
Tldr this meta sucks and its easier than ever to surviveEdited by Ocelot9x on December 21, 2017 2:10AM0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So
Mag sorc are not op,currently I consider the the bottom of mag specs
Magplars are easy. Tons of damage and no need to get good since you can just hold block/purge/bold/mist form for an unlimited amount of time. Same for magdk but more damage less survivability.
Then
Stamina warden is the only stamina spec in line with this meta,so the only one worth playing. Stam dks /stam sorc are a jokes ,stam nb are good at running away waiting for more guys to come.
Tldr this meta sucks and its easier than ever to survive
I prefer more survival over the meat grinder type playstyle0 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »What you may be looking for is a cp nerf.
This right here!
In my opinion as one who runs all of the classes almost equally in PvP. (Mainly Stamblade in PvP and Magsorc/Magblade in PvE) My opinion is that for the most part all of the classes are balanced for the most part. They all have their pros and cons, some more then others. (Looking at you Stamden.)
However the major offender to this issue. Is the way CPs adds raw stats on top of our already existing stats. It pretty much is single handedly whats cause that annoying yoyo effect, that you are talking about. I'll say a balance brush needs to hit the CP trees before ZOS even thinks about nerfing anybody elses class.
Mag and Stam Sorcerer nerf hammered
Mag and Stam Templar nerf hammered
Mag and Stam DKs nerf hammered
Mag and Stam Nightblades nerf hammered.
And coming soon Warden.
But guess what those problems we had before hard nerfs are still here! I don't know about you but in my eyes the screams Class balance is not the issue.
Which leaves CP and or itemization balance issues.
Just my two cents is all.Edited by FearlessOne_2014 on December 22, 2017 5:02PM1 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Honestly what wee need is mechanics that limit zerg/group healing in PvP
The “Zerg problem” is interesting to me. Sometimes I brainstorm solutions, and if you want to get yelled at discuss Zerg solutions with people, lol.
You could disincentivize it with AP. But that’s problematic because it kinda already is. I make my “living” ganking the Zerg. I can make 10k in an average encounter, me vs 6-8. When they trap me they get, what? 50 AP each? Probably something like that. I don’t mind grouping for strategic objectives, but ap earning in a group stinks for me. It’s already so low that I’m not clear why people Zerg.
Alternatively you could disincentivize it through a per-player power reduction for Zergs. They get weaker as a group grows. That is an utterly unpopular idea, lol. And a bit counter-intuitive. And when solo nightblades started taking down ten person groups, a real war would probably break out at ZOS headquarters.
The strategy they’ve embraced is trying to develop Zerg-busting skills. Yes, most everyone could see how that was going to turn out - the Zergs all equip those abilities, so now they can have Eye of the Storm proc every three seconds, so Zergs are more powerful and solo players are disadvantaged. It was an obvious outcome...but no one ever accused Eric Wroebel’s team of being Rhodes Scholars, exactly.
It’s a tricky problem. I have no solutions for spreading people out, so I can’t be too,harsh on their band-aid approach.
That's because you're discussing zerg-busting like there's only one type of zerg. There's two types.
1. The loose mass of disorganized or loosely grouped players running around together in a zerg. These guys are comparatively easy. Zerg-busting skills work on them, but they've got sheer numbers on their side to make up for the lack of organization. They can be easily picked apart by more experienced solo, small group or organized large groups.
2. The organized raid of 16-24 players (plus whatever PUGs are hanging on their coattails). (Please note that I do not consider an organized raid to be a zerg, but you are clearly talking about them as though they were, so its a useful distinction for the purposes of discussion) These guys are organized and not at all easy to fight. They'll take those zerg-busting skills and use them right back at you. You thought eye of the storm was going to help you bust up their raid? Who's going to use it more effectively, a solo guy or an organized raid? That's right. The raid. But the thing is, you can change those skills the raid uses to survive and it won't matter. The true weapon of an organized raid isn't the skills they use - its their organization. Change the skills, the raid will adapt and still be strong because of their organization.
Now the real problem with balancing counters to zergs is that you have to balance countering both types of zergs. Give solo players something that will wreck the first type of zerg and the second type of zerg picks it up and uses it even more effectively. Try to nerf the second type of zerg and that organized raid will adapt and come back just as strong, which means the organized raid is now relatively stronger in comparison to the first type of disorganized or loosely organized groups and can cut through them like a hot knife through butter. You can counter large numbers of disorganized players, but there's no counter to organization, which is the reason organized raids are so effective and have remained so through all the gameplay changes. Because of that, organized raids will always be extremely effective.
TLDR: There's a difference between a zerg of disorganized/loosely grouped players and a "zerg" of organized raids. When you talk about the "Zerg Problem" you have to consider the impact on both groups. Then, realize that no amount of gameplay changes will ever touch the secret weapon of the organized raid: organization.
I'm just going to say one phrase here.
Take away the AOE cap crutch these zerglings and organized raid groups cling to, and then see what happens.Edited by FearlessOne_2014 on December 22, 2017 5:18PM2 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭Waffennacht wrote: »So
Mag sorc are not op,currently I consider the the bottom of mag specs
Magplars are easy. Tons of damage and no need to get good since you can just hold block/purge/bold/mist form for an unlimited amount of time. Same for magdk but more damage less survivability.
Then
Stamina warden is the only stamina spec in line with this meta,so the only one worth playing. Stam dks /stam sorc are a jokes ,stam nb are good at running away waiting for more guys to come.
Tldr this meta sucks and its easier than ever to survive
I prefer more survival over the meat grinder type playstyle
Same!1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Honestly what wee need is mechanics that limit zerg/group healing in PvP
The “Zerg problem” is interesting to me. Sometimes I brainstorm solutions, and if you want to get yelled at discuss Zerg solutions with people, lol.
You could disincentivize it with AP. But that’s problematic because it kinda already is. I make my “living” ganking the Zerg. I can make 10k in an average encounter, me vs 6-8. When they trap me they get, what? 50 AP each? Probably something like that. I don’t mind grouping for strategic objectives, but ap earning in a group stinks for me. It’s already so low that I’m not clear why people Zerg.
Alternatively you could disincentivize it through a per-player power reduction for Zergs. They get weaker as a group grows. That is an utterly unpopular idea, lol. And a bit counter-intuitive. And when solo nightblades started taking down ten person groups, a real war would probably break out at ZOS headquarters.
The strategy they’ve embraced is trying to develop Zerg-busting skills. Yes, most everyone could see how that was going to turn out - the Zergs all equip those abilities, so now they can have Eye of the Storm proc every three seconds, so Zergs are more powerful and solo players are disadvantaged. It was an obvious outcome...but no one ever accused Eric Wroebel’s team of being Rhodes Scholars, exactly.
It’s a tricky problem. I have no solutions for spreading people out, so I can’t be too,harsh on their band-aid approach.
That's because you're discussing zerg-busting like there's only one type of zerg. There's two types.
1. The loose mass of disorganized or loosely grouped players running around together in a zerg. These guys are comparatively easy. Zerg-busting skills work on them, but they've got sheer numbers on their side to make up for the lack of organization. They can be easily picked apart by more experienced solo, small group or organized large groups.
2. The organized raid of 16-24 players (plus whatever PUGs are hanging on their coattails). (Please note that I do not consider an organized raid to be a zerg, but you are clearly talking about them as though they were, so its a useful distinction for the purposes of discussion) These guys are organized and not at all easy to fight. They'll take those zerg-busting skills and use them right back at you. You thought eye of the storm was going to help you bust up their raid? Who's going to use it more effectively, a solo guy or an organized raid? That's right. The raid. But the thing is, you can change those skills the raid uses to survive and it won't matter. The true weapon of an organized raid isn't the skills they use - its their organization. Change the skills, the raid will adapt and still be strong because of their organization.
Now the real problem with balancing counters to zergs is that you have to balance countering both types of zergs. Give solo players something that will wreck the first type of zerg and the second type of zerg picks it up and uses it even more effectively. Try to nerf the second type of zerg and that organized raid will adapt and come back just as strong, which means the organized raid is now relatively stronger in comparison to the first type of disorganized or loosely organized groups and can cut through them like a hot knife through butter. You can counter large numbers of disorganized players, but there's no counter to organization, which is the reason organized raids are so effective and have remained so through all the gameplay changes. Because of that, organized raids will always be extremely effective.
TLDR: There's a difference between a zerg of disorganized/loosely grouped players and a "zerg" of organized raids. When you talk about the "Zerg Problem" you have to consider the impact on both groups. Then, realize that no amount of gameplay changes will ever touch the secret weapon of the organized raid: organization.
I'm just going to say one phrase here.
Take away the AOE cap crutch these zerglings and organized raid groups cling to, and then see what happens.
Wait, so we remove the AOE cap that let's the zerglings and organized raid groups stick close together and not get wiped by a single bomber...and we pretend that removing the AOE cap isn't going to make that organized raid group that much nastier?
I mean, a bomber gets a lot nastier without the AOE cap, sure, but imagine what a destro pain train running proxy det and a whole raid's worth of AOEs is going to do.
I'm not entirely convinced that removing the AOE cap is going to have quite the effect you are hoping for.1 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Honestly what wee need is mechanics that limit zerg/group healing in PvP
The “Zerg problem” is interesting to me. Sometimes I brainstorm solutions, and if you want to get yelled at discuss Zerg solutions with people, lol.
You could disincentivize it with AP. But that’s problematic because it kinda already is. I make my “living” ganking the Zerg. I can make 10k in an average encounter, me vs 6-8. When they trap me they get, what? 50 AP each? Probably something like that. I don’t mind grouping for strategic objectives, but ap earning in a group stinks for me. It’s already so low that I’m not clear why people Zerg.
Alternatively you could disincentivize it through a per-player power reduction for Zergs. They get weaker as a group grows. That is an utterly unpopular idea, lol. And a bit counter-intuitive. And when solo nightblades started taking down ten person groups, a real war would probably break out at ZOS headquarters.
The strategy they’ve embraced is trying to develop Zerg-busting skills. Yes, most everyone could see how that was going to turn out - the Zergs all equip those abilities, so now they can have Eye of the Storm proc every three seconds, so Zergs are more powerful and solo players are disadvantaged. It was an obvious outcome...but no one ever accused Eric Wroebel’s team of being Rhodes Scholars, exactly.
It’s a tricky problem. I have no solutions for spreading people out, so I can’t be too,harsh on their band-aid approach.
That's because you're discussing zerg-busting like there's only one type of zerg. There's two types.
1. The loose mass of disorganized or loosely grouped players running around together in a zerg. These guys are comparatively easy. Zerg-busting skills work on them, but they've got sheer numbers on their side to make up for the lack of organization. They can be easily picked apart by more experienced solo, small group or organized large groups.
2. The organized raid of 16-24 players (plus whatever PUGs are hanging on their coattails). (Please note that I do not consider an organized raid to be a zerg, but you are clearly talking about them as though they were, so its a useful distinction for the purposes of discussion) These guys are organized and not at all easy to fight. They'll take those zerg-busting skills and use them right back at you. You thought eye of the storm was going to help you bust up their raid? Who's going to use it more effectively, a solo guy or an organized raid? That's right. The raid. But the thing is, you can change those skills the raid uses to survive and it won't matter. The true weapon of an organized raid isn't the skills they use - its their organization. Change the skills, the raid will adapt and still be strong because of their organization.
Now the real problem with balancing counters to zergs is that you have to balance countering both types of zergs. Give solo players something that will wreck the first type of zerg and the second type of zerg picks it up and uses it even more effectively. Try to nerf the second type of zerg and that organized raid will adapt and come back just as strong, which means the organized raid is now relatively stronger in comparison to the first type of disorganized or loosely organized groups and can cut through them like a hot knife through butter. You can counter large numbers of disorganized players, but there's no counter to organization, which is the reason organized raids are so effective and have remained so through all the gameplay changes. Because of that, organized raids will always be extremely effective.
TLDR: There's a difference between a zerg of disorganized/loosely grouped players and a "zerg" of organized raids. When you talk about the "Zerg Problem" you have to consider the impact on both groups. Then, realize that no amount of gameplay changes will ever touch the secret weapon of the organized raid: organization.
I'm just going to say one phrase here.
Take away the AOE cap crutch these zerglings and organized raid groups cling to, and then see what happens.
Wait, so we remove the AOE cap that let's the zerglings and organized raid groups stick close together and not get wiped by a single bomber...and we pretend that removing the AOE cap isn't going to make that organized raid group that much nastier?
I mean, a bomber gets a lot nastier without the AOE cap, sure, but imagine what a destro pain train running proxy det and a whole raid's worth of AOEs is going to do.
I'm not entirely convinced that removing the AOE cap is going to have quite the effect you are hoping for.
Well then don't take my word on it. Just do the math yourself.
You 1vXing a bunch of tightly stack zerglings or organized raid group. Ok if AOE cap is say 5. Basically that AOE cap nerfs everyones defences that is not blobbing. Because you are still going to take the SAME DAMAGE from them regaurdless if there is a AOE cap or not.
However that blob that you are fighting is going gain extra hard resistance for everybody they stack above the AOE cap. Meaning if there are no AOE cap then the bigger the blob the more damage they would take compared to now.
Again since you are not blobbing AOE cap is null and void for you anyways. This also goes for smaller groups as well. It's elementary, THE MORE YOU HAVE THE LESS YOU GUYS TAKE FROM AoE damage. THE LESS YOU HAVE THE MORE YOU TAKE FROM AOE damage compared to the group you are fighting against.Edited by FearlessOne_2014 on December 22, 2017 6:45PM0 -
Mureel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Also seriously stfu over aoe caps! You guys are the ones who got them instated in the first place!!0 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also seriously stfu over aoe caps! You guys are the ones who got them instated in the first place!!
Lol how uncivil of you!
Other than collision detection and getting rid of AOE caps. Nothing that you do will weaking stacking more bodies in one place to reduce damage tactics. Which is the supreme plus to zerging or raiding with no cons.Edited by FearlessOne_2014 on December 22, 2017 6:58PM0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Honestly what wee need is mechanics that limit zerg/group healing in PvP
The “Zerg problem” is interesting to me. Sometimes I brainstorm solutions, and if you want to get yelled at discuss Zerg solutions with people, lol.
You could disincentivize it with AP. But that’s problematic because it kinda already is. I make my “living” ganking the Zerg. I can make 10k in an average encounter, me vs 6-8. When they trap me they get, what? 50 AP each? Probably something like that. I don’t mind grouping for strategic objectives, but ap earning in a group stinks for me. It’s already so low that I’m not clear why people Zerg.
Alternatively you could disincentivize it through a per-player power reduction for Zergs. They get weaker as a group grows. That is an utterly unpopular idea, lol. And a bit counter-intuitive. And when solo nightblades started taking down ten person groups, a real war would probably break out at ZOS headquarters.
The strategy they’ve embraced is trying to develop Zerg-busting skills. Yes, most everyone could see how that was going to turn out - the Zergs all equip those abilities, so now they can have Eye of the Storm proc every three seconds, so Zergs are more powerful and solo players are disadvantaged. It was an obvious outcome...but no one ever accused Eric Wroebel’s team of being Rhodes Scholars, exactly.
It’s a tricky problem. I have no solutions for spreading people out, so I can’t be too,harsh on their band-aid approach.
That's because you're discussing zerg-busting like there's only one type of zerg. There's two types.
1. The loose mass of disorganized or loosely grouped players running around together in a zerg. These guys are comparatively easy. Zerg-busting skills work on them, but they've got sheer numbers on their side to make up for the lack of organization. They can be easily picked apart by more experienced solo, small group or organized large groups.
2. The organized raid of 16-24 players (plus whatever PUGs are hanging on their coattails). (Please note that I do not consider an organized raid to be a zerg, but you are clearly talking about them as though they were, so its a useful distinction for the purposes of discussion) These guys are organized and not at all easy to fight. They'll take those zerg-busting skills and use them right back at you. You thought eye of the storm was going to help you bust up their raid? Who's going to use it more effectively, a solo guy or an organized raid? That's right. The raid. But the thing is, you can change those skills the raid uses to survive and it won't matter. The true weapon of an organized raid isn't the skills they use - its their organization. Change the skills, the raid will adapt and still be strong because of their organization.
Now the real problem with balancing counters to zergs is that you have to balance countering both types of zergs. Give solo players something that will wreck the first type of zerg and the second type of zerg picks it up and uses it even more effectively. Try to nerf the second type of zerg and that organized raid will adapt and come back just as strong, which means the organized raid is now relatively stronger in comparison to the first type of disorganized or loosely organized groups and can cut through them like a hot knife through butter. You can counter large numbers of disorganized players, but there's no counter to organization, which is the reason organized raids are so effective and have remained so through all the gameplay changes. Because of that, organized raids will always be extremely effective.
TLDR: There's a difference between a zerg of disorganized/loosely grouped players and a "zerg" of organized raids. When you talk about the "Zerg Problem" you have to consider the impact on both groups. Then, realize that no amount of gameplay changes will ever touch the secret weapon of the organized raid: organization.
I'm just going to say one phrase here.
Take away the AOE cap crutch these zerglings and organized raid groups cling to, and then see what happens.
Wait, so we remove the AOE cap that let's the zerglings and organized raid groups stick close together and not get wiped by a single bomber...and we pretend that removing the AOE cap isn't going to make that organized raid group that much nastier?
I mean, a bomber gets a lot nastier without the AOE cap, sure, but imagine what a destro pain train running proxy det and a whole raid's worth of AOEs is going to do.
I'm not entirely convinced that removing the AOE cap is going to have quite the effect you are hoping for.
Removing AoE caps on damage isn't going to magically solve all problems. But let's not pretend it is disorganized zergs that make most use of them.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Anti Zerg ideas cannot be an increase without also aiding the Zerg.
It has to be a negative effect based on numbers.
Don't see how it can be done...0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Waffennacht wrote: »Anti Zerg ideas cannot be an increase without also aiding the Zerg.
It has to be a negative effect based on numbers.
Don't see how it can be done...
Heals could get weaker the more people they hit. Like one person gets100% of the heal and it decreases by 25% for every other person healed. Or they could make healing smart where you have to actually aim your heal at the person you want to heal. And then have aoe heals but make them a lot weaker than single target heals. And make it to where the aoe is just a cone in front of them sort of like dawnbreaker maybe a little bigger area. It's not aoe caps keeping these groups alive it's how crazy strong and easy healing is1 -
Mureel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »Also seriously stfu over aoe caps! You guys are the ones who got them instated in the first place!!
Lol how uncivil of you!
Other than collision detection and getting rid of AOE caps. Nothing that you do will weaking stacking more bodies in one place to reduce damage tactics. Which is the supreme plus to zerging or raiding with no cons.
It's not at all uncivil. It's fact. PVPers literally wet the bed a few years back, for months, to GET aoe caps - ya made your bed.1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Anti Zerg ideas cannot be an increase without also aiding the Zerg.
It has to be a negative effect based on numbers.
Don't see how it can be done...
Heals could get weaker the more people they hit. Like one person gets100% of the heal and it decreases by 25% for every other person healed. Or they could make healing smart where you have to actually aim your heal at the person you want to heal. And then have aoe heals but make them a lot weaker than single target heals. And make it to where the aoe is just a cone in front of them sort of like dawnbreaker maybe a little bigger area. It's not aoe caps keeping these groups alive it's how crazy strong and easy healing is
Actually an idea that'd work... Nice idea.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »Also seriously stfu over aoe caps! You guys are the ones who got them instated in the first place!!
Lol how uncivil of you!
Other than collision detection and getting rid of AOE caps. Nothing that you do will weaking stacking more bodies in one place to reduce damage tactics. Which is the supreme plus to zerging or raiding with no cons.
It's not at all uncivil. It's fact. PVPers literally wet the bed a few years back, for months, to GET aoe caps - ya made your bed.
The ***. The pvp community was horrified at them since launch.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »Also seriously stfu over aoe caps! You guys are the ones who got them instated in the first place!!
Lol how uncivil of you!
Other than collision detection and getting rid of AOE caps. Nothing that you do will weaking stacking more bodies in one place to reduce damage tactics. Which is the supreme plus to zerging or raiding with no cons.
It's not at all uncivil. It's fact. PVPers literally wet the bed a few years back, for months, to GET aoe caps - ya made your bed.
The ***. The pvp community was horrified at them since launch.
This. I remember the strong arguments against, such as dumb damage vs smart Healing. One of the things I actually thought Fengrush made an excellent point with.0 -
Zordrage✭✭✭✭✭Poor nightblades sometimes can't insta kill their targets in a blink of an eye .. WE need to nerf those heals am i right ?0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Shielding needs nerfs in exchange for skillful play/mobility. Base healing is fine. Blocking is fine.
Honestly what wee need is mechanics that limit zerg/group healing in PvP (I'd go as far as to say a limit on all external healing.) so people need to look after themselves and gittus goodus. Ever fought a group with two+ pocket healers, its like *** wackamoling iron with an inflatable hammer.
Also total removal of AoE caps to crush zergtrash with all CC and full damage.
Inb4 play no CP, its good for quick fights, but you are going to be zerged harder.
Is there a reason your groups can't focus enemy healers?0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »15 to 100 on a stam toon, probably should be the rally burst heal,or a stamina templar.
To be really honest on a heavy armor setup using rally is kind of suicide.
and on a medium armor setup, they are really squishy so rally is a part of how they survive.
as a dot based stamDk, healing isnt an issue for me, as I will always have an %100 percent uptime of major defile on my enemy,thanks to reverb bash, but purge is the issue for me. I don't mind the healer purging himself, but I hate it when a healer purges an entire group.
I don't think nerfing purge will solve this issue , but It is definitely overperforming right now.
Reaping Mark is the obvious thought if it's NBs self-healing.0 -
f047ys3v3n✭✭✭✭✭
✭This doesn't feel like a class or resource issues...it feels like across all lasses, but the mega heals (on non-healers) are getting kinda annoying. I’m talking about a solo player of most any class swinging from 15% to 100% health in like 1/2 second. I’m not sure what’s doing that exactly...but it seems like heals are way more powerful than they used to be.
I’d take a 25% nerf to my own heals if they were all brought down. I’m not sure if that would change the effect or not.
9 times out of ten that insta healers are either earthgore (this set is OP as hell and getting a nerf) or cheat engine (shh, it doesn't exist and isn't prevalent were all just imagining that that nightblade just cast breath of life.) I'm not convinced that there is really a problem outside of these two factors. I'm sure ZOS will address the precieved problem and make a mess though as they sure don't seem to want to lay the hammer to cheat engine.
As to the making of healing weaker for external heals for groups. Ok, I don't think you will like fighting good groups that now have more DPS's in place of a few healers any better. This will also constitute a dramatic change in general class balance as some classes and builds have not just linearly but exponentially better self heals and shields than others. My stam sorc can sustain 6.5k self heals per second in combat with almost all of that passive from crit surge and rend. A stam NB has effectively no passive heals. Balance would definitely be far worse with no healers. I think your probably on to one of the things ZOS intends to change in PVP though. It will be a mess and many will quit.Edited by f047ys3v3n on December 24, 2017 8:32AMI am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.0 -
generalmyrick✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Honestly what wee need is mechanics that limit zerg/group healing in PvP
The “Zerg problem” is interesting to me. Sometimes I brainstorm solutions, and if you want to get yelled at discuss Zerg solutions with people, lol.
You could disincentivize it with AP. But that’s problematic because it kinda already is. I make my “living” ganking the Zerg. I can make 10k in an average encounter, me vs 6-8. When they trap me they get, what? 50 AP each? Probably something like that. I don’t mind grouping for strategic objectives, but ap earning in a group stinks for me. It’s already so low that I’m not clear why people Zerg.
Alternatively you could disincentivize it through a per-player power reduction for Zergs. They get weaker as a group grows. That is an utterly unpopular idea, lol. And a bit counter-intuitive. And when solo nightblades started taking down ten person groups, a real war would probably break out at ZOS headquarters.
The strategy they’ve embraced is trying to develop Zerg-busting skills. Yes, most everyone could see how that was going to turn out - the Zergs all equip those abilities, so now they can have Eye of the Storm proc every three seconds, so Zergs are more powerful and solo players are disadvantaged. It was an obvious outcome...but no one ever accused Eric Wroebel’s team of being Rhodes Scholars, exactly.
It’s a tricky problem. I have no solutions for spreading people out, so I can’t be too,harsh on their band-aid approach.
That's because you're discussing zerg-busting like there's only one type of zerg. There's two types.
1. The loose mass of disorganized or loosely grouped players running around together in a zerg. These guys are comparatively easy. Zerg-busting skills work on them, but they've got sheer numbers on their side to make up for the lack of organization. They can be easily picked apart by more experienced solo, small group or organized large groups.
2. The organized raid of 16-24 players (plus whatever PUGs are hanging on their coattails). (Please note that I do not consider an organized raid to be a zerg, but you are clearly talking about them as though they were, so its a useful distinction for the purposes of discussion) These guys are organized and not at all easy to fight. They'll take those zerg-busting skills and use them right back at you. You thought eye of the storm was going to help you bust up their raid? Who's going to use it more effectively, a solo guy or an organized raid? That's right. The raid. But the thing is, you can change those skills the raid uses to survive and it won't matter. The true weapon of an organized raid isn't the skills they use - its their organization. Change the skills, the raid will adapt and still be strong because of their organization.
Now the real problem with balancing counters to zergs is that you have to balance countering both types of zergs. Give solo players something that will wreck the first type of zerg and the second type of zerg picks it up and uses it even more effectively. Try to nerf the second type of zerg and that organized raid will adapt and come back just as strong, which means the organized raid is now relatively stronger in comparison to the first type of disorganized or loosely organized groups and can cut through them like a hot knife through butter. You can counter large numbers of disorganized players, but there's no counter to organization, which is the reason organized raids are so effective and have remained so through all the gameplay changes. Because of that, organized raids will always be extremely effective.
TLDR: There's a difference between a zerg of disorganized/loosely grouped players and a "zerg" of organized raids. When you talk about the "Zerg Problem" you have to consider the impact on both groups. Then, realize that no amount of gameplay changes will ever touch the secret weapon of the organized raid: organization.
Agree with most of this = except the word "always"...and even here i think i will prove your point.
they will "always" be effective if the amount of objectives were to increase to a point where organizing into 16-24 organized raids would become too inefficient...ie --> there is one organized raid facing assault from both factions at the same time or outnumbered.
or, what i want zos to do, CREATE more objectives on the map that matter."The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are a popular cultural meme, a metaphor representing the choice between:
Knowledge, freedom, uncertainty and the brutal truths of reality (red pill)
Security, happiness, beauty, and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)"
Insight to Agree to Awesome Ratio = 1:6.04:2.76 as of 1/25/2019
Compared to people that I've ignored = I am 18% more insightful, 20% less agreeable, and 88% more awesome.0 -
Neoauspex✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's a prevalent counter to healing... Defile works. I'd be curious to see ZoS stats on how many people put points in shattering blows though, it's a really ineffective counter to shields.0
