Kinda tired of mega heals and shields

davey1107

Honestly what wee need is mechanics that limit zerg/group healing in PvP

The “Zerg problem” is interesting to me. Sometimes I brainstorm solutions, and if you want to get yelled at discuss Zerg solutions with people, lol.

You could disincentivize it with AP. But that’s problematic because it kinda already is. I make my “living” ganking the Zerg. I can make 10k in an average encounter, me vs 6-8. When they trap me they get, what? 50 AP each? Probably something like that. I don’t mind grouping for strategic objectives, but ap earning in a group stinks for me. It’s already so low that I’m not clear why people Zerg.

Alternatively you could disincentivize it through a per-player power reduction for Zergs. They get weaker as a group grows. That is an utterly unpopular idea, lol. And a bit counter-intuitive. And when solo nightblades started taking down ten person groups, a real war would probably break out at ZOS headquarters.

The strategy they’ve embraced is trying to develop Zerg-busting skills. Yes, most everyone could see how that was going to turn out - the Zergs all equip those abilities, so now they can have Eye of the Storm proc every three seconds, so Zergs are more powerful and solo players are disadvantaged. It was an obvious outcome...but no one ever accused Eric Wroebel’s team of being Rhodes Scholars, exactly.

It’s a tricky problem. I have no solutions for spreading people out, so I can’t be too,harsh on their band-aid approach.

Ragnarock41

15 to 100 on a stam toon, probably should be the rally burst heal,or a stamina templar.
To be really honest on a heavy armor setup using rally is kind of suicide.

and on a medium armor setup, they are really squishy so rally is a part of how they survive.

as a dot based stamDk, healing isnt an issue for me, as I will always have an %100 percent uptime of major defile on my enemy,thanks to reverb bash, but purge is the issue for me. I don't mind the healer purging himself, but I hate it when a healer purges an entire group.

I don't think nerfing purge will solve this issue , but It is definitely overperforming right now.

VaranisArano

davey1107 wrote: »

Honestly what wee need is mechanics that limit zerg/group healing in PvP

The “Zerg problem” is interesting to me. Sometimes I brainstorm solutions, and if you want to get yelled at discuss Zerg solutions with people, lol.

You could disincentivize it with AP. But that’s problematic because it kinda already is. I make my “living” ganking the Zerg. I can make 10k in an average encounter, me vs 6-8. When they trap me they get, what? 50 AP each? Probably something like that. I don’t mind grouping for strategic objectives, but ap earning in a group stinks for me. It’s already so low that I’m not clear why people Zerg.

Alternatively you could disincentivize it through a per-player power reduction for Zergs. They get weaker as a group grows. That is an utterly unpopular idea, lol. And a bit counter-intuitive. And when solo nightblades started taking down ten person groups, a real war would probably break out at ZOS headquarters.

The strategy they’ve embraced is trying to develop Zerg-busting skills. Yes, most everyone could see how that was going to turn out - the Zergs all equip those abilities, so now they can have Eye of the Storm proc every three seconds, so Zergs are more powerful and solo players are disadvantaged. It was an obvious outcome...but no one ever accused Eric Wroebel’s team of being Rhodes Scholars, exactly.

It’s a tricky problem. I have no solutions for spreading people out, so I can’t be too,harsh on their band-aid approach.

That's because you're discussing zerg-busting like there's only one type of zerg. There's two types.

1. The loose mass of disorganized or loosely grouped players running around together in a zerg. These guys are comparatively easy. Zerg-busting skills work on them, but they've got sheer numbers on their side to make up for the lack of organization. They can be easily picked apart by more experienced solo, small group or organized large groups.

2. The organized raid of 16-24 players (plus whatever PUGs are hanging on their coattails). (Please note that I do not consider an organized raid to be a zerg, but you are clearly talking about them as though they were, so its a useful distinction for the purposes of discussion) These guys are organized and not at all easy to fight. They'll take those zerg-busting skills and use them right back at you. You thought eye of the storm was going to help you bust up their raid? Who's going to use it more effectively, a solo guy or an organized raid? That's right. The raid. But the thing is, you can change those skills the raid uses to survive and it won't matter. The true weapon of an organized raid isn't the skills they use - its their organization. Change the skills, the raid will adapt and still be strong because of their organization.

Now the real problem with balancing counters to zergs is that you have to balance countering both types of zergs. Give solo players something that will wreck the first type of zerg and the second type of zerg picks it up and uses it even more effectively. Try to nerf the second type of zerg and that organized raid will adapt and come back just as strong, which means the organized raid is now relatively stronger in comparison to the first type of disorganized or loosely organized groups and can cut through them like a hot knife through butter. You can counter large numbers of disorganized players, but there's no counter to organization, which is the reason organized raids are so effective and have remained so through all the gameplay changes. Because of that, organized raids will always be extremely effective.

TLDR: There's a difference between a zerg of disorganized/loosely grouped players and a "zerg" of organized raids. When you talk about the "Zerg Problem" you have to consider the impact on both groups. Then, realize that no amount of gameplay changes will ever touch the secret weapon of the organized raid: organization.

Biro123

VaranisArano wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

Honestly what wee need is mechanics that limit zerg/group healing in PvP

The “Zerg problem” is interesting to me. Sometimes I brainstorm solutions, and if you want to get yelled at discuss Zerg solutions with people, lol.

You could disincentivize it with AP. But that’s problematic because it kinda already is. I make my “living” ganking the Zerg. I can make 10k in an average encounter, me vs 6-8. When they trap me they get, what? 50 AP each? Probably something like that. I don’t mind grouping for strategic objectives, but ap earning in a group stinks for me. It’s already so low that I’m not clear why people Zerg.

Alternatively you could disincentivize it through a per-player power reduction for Zergs. They get weaker as a group grows. That is an utterly unpopular idea, lol. And a bit counter-intuitive. And when solo nightblades started taking down ten person groups, a real war would probably break out at ZOS headquarters.

The strategy they’ve embraced is trying to develop Zerg-busting skills. Yes, most everyone could see how that was going to turn out - the Zergs all equip those abilities, so now they can have Eye of the Storm proc every three seconds, so Zergs are more powerful and solo players are disadvantaged. It was an obvious outcome...but no one ever accused Eric Wroebel’s team of being Rhodes Scholars, exactly.

It’s a tricky problem. I have no solutions for spreading people out, so I can’t be too,harsh on their band-aid approach.

That's because you're discussing zerg-busting like there's only one type of zerg. There's two types.

1. The loose mass of disorganized or loosely grouped players running around together in a zerg. These guys are comparatively easy. Zerg-busting skills work on them, but they've got sheer numbers on their side to make up for the lack of organization. They can be easily picked apart by more experienced solo, small group or organized large groups.

2. The organized raid of 16-24 players (plus whatever PUGs are hanging on their coattails). (Please note that I do not consider an organized raid to be a zerg, but you are clearly talking about them as though they were, so its a useful distinction for the purposes of discussion) These guys are organized and not at all easy to fight. They'll take those zerg-busting skills and use them right back at you. You thought eye of the storm was going to help you bust up their raid? Who's going to use it more effectively, a solo guy or an organized raid? That's right. The raid. But the thing is, you can change those skills the raid uses to survive and it won't matter. The true weapon of an organized raid isn't the skills they use - its their organization. Change the skills, the raid will adapt and still be strong because of their organization.

Now the real problem with balancing counters to zergs is that you have to balance countering both types of zergs. Give solo players something that will wreck the first type of zerg and the second type of zerg picks it up and uses it even more effectively. Try to nerf the second type of zerg and that organized raid will adapt and come back just as strong, which means the organized raid is now relatively stronger in comparison to the first type of disorganized or loosely organized groups and can cut through them like a hot knife through butter. You can counter large numbers of disorganized players, but there's no counter to organization, which is the reason organized raids are so effective and have remained so through all the gameplay changes. Because of that, organized raids will always be extremely effective.

TLDR: There's a difference between a zerg of disorganized/loosely grouped players and a "zerg" of organized raids. When you talk about the "Zerg Problem" you have to consider the impact on both groups. Then, realize that no amount of gameplay changes will ever touch the secret weapon of the organized raid: organization.

That's an 'awesome' from me. I often get confused as to how people seem to lump zergs and ball-groups under the same label.

Zerg = the unorganised masses - 30+ players in a swarm.

I also tend to think that many people over-estimate the size of a ball-group - probably related to their effectiveness. I'd say most I see are between 12 and 18 players possibly less. (usually too busy running to count).

They're not really comparable.

You're also dead-on with what happens with 'zerg-busting' tools.

VaranisArano

It can be really hard to gauge the size of an organized group in the heat of combat. For one, everyone on the screen has the same color shields, so its harder to look and count the number of players with the same guild name on their tabard. Then you add in the PUGs who tagged along, because there usually are PUGs following "hey, look, its an effective group that knows what they're doing, I wanna follow them!" who technically aren't following the crown or hearing the calls but certainly could be lumped in with the group. Then you get the full zergs where more than one organized raid showed up at the same important objective with a bunch of PUGs...

I define a zerg as one or more organized raids + PUGs at the same place or moving together to an objective. Of that zerg, the organized raid is definitely the most dangerous part, but is also moving independently of the PUGs. So if you have to counter that type of zerg without the numbers to smash the whole thing in one go, you want to split the PUGs from the raid and wipe the PUGs so the raid doesn't have support from random players on top of their own tactics and organization. Then you can bring your forces to bear on the raid while the raid only has their own resources, which are still effective, but you've at least removed their reinforcements.

Figuring out counters to zergs isn't that hard, but executing them effectively is another matter. The best counter to an organized raid is having some organization of your own, whether that's another organized raid or simply organized tactics.

Rianai

Biro123 wrote: »

I often get confused as to how people seem to lump zergs and ball-groups under the same label.

Maybe because in reality there aren't only those 2 types of "zergs". Often you will encounter something inbetween a huge mass of completely unorganized and ungrouped players and a highly organized and specialized group and sometimes you can meet both mixed together. There can be any level of organisation not just 0% and 100%, and the difference isn't always clear.
Which ofc doesn't negate your and Varanis' points regarding "zerg counters".

Personally i think there are enough tools to kill not so organized zergs, there will never be enough tools for "easy kills" against strong ball-groups (which is how it should be), but there aren't enough tools for outnumbered players to escape from zergs. Right now there are a lot more means to chase and lock down a player, than ways to escape the chasers, which will always favour numbers.

Biro123

Yep.
In terms of outnumbered players escaping, its much, much easier to escape from an organized ball-group than from an unorganised zerg.

You know the ball-group will follow the leader - and you know the leader won't waste an effective ball-group to chase down a single player - you just need to avoid the masses that they will be going for.

But the great unorganised.. they will chase you to the ends of the earth.. Which you can use actually... I had some fun the other day after escaping from an organised EP group (they stayed to flip a resource instead of chasing) only to run into another DC player sprinting the other way with a horde of AD behind him.. So I led them right into that EP group..
It was beautiful

But yeah, you can also slow enemy keep-takes by pulling a ton of unorganised siegers away from their siege to chase you...

But honestly, death is the usual result - its just a case of how long you can string it out..

VaranisArano

Biro123 wrote: »

Yep.
In terms of outnumbered players escaping, its much, much easier to escape from an organized ball-group than from an unorganised zerg.

You know the ball-group will follow the leader - and you know the leader won't waste an effective ball-group to chase down a single player - you just need to avoid the masses that they will be going for.

But the great unorganised.. they will chase you to the ends of the earth.. Which you can use actually... I had some fun the other day after escaping from an organised EP group (they stayed to flip a resource instead of chasing) only to run into another DC player sprinting the other way with a horde of AD behind him.. So I led them right into that EP group..
It was beautiful

But yeah, you can also slow enemy keep-takes by pulling a ton of unorganised siegers away from their siege to chase you...

But honestly, death is the usual result - its just a case of how long you can string it out..

This is a really good description of how that usually works. An organized raid will stay on crown but a lone guy is blood in the water to unorganized players. You can use both to your advantage.

Domander

I'm more tired of super crazy damage and 60% health executes.

Pvp used to be largely a resource game...

Mayrael

davey1107 wrote: »

@Trashs1

If you don’t play CP, then we can’t really compare notes. The game has gone through so many changes with CP that it’s like two entirely different worlds now.

But what can happen on my magsorc now is that the CPs allow so much power that they can hold up these massive shields, while pushing out these easy mode attacks. Both of these are sustained sort of indefinitely through overly generous magic and health return buffs. Because I never need to block or roll owing to shields, my stam pool is a second magic and health pool via dark exchange.

This wouldn’t happen in non-cp. The shields and heals would be weaker, so a non-cp toon would probably have to compensate at the cost of power. I really don’t know where the balance is in non-cp, I barely ever play it. But if I had to guess...the non-cp mechanics give more importance to sets....that’s where characters have to go to overcome weaknesses. And I think there are waaaaay more powerful and versatile stam configurations out there, so I’d guess the terror of your non-cp campaign is some stam class or other. Stam Sorcs or stamblades, I’d guess.

On my server the terror of the non-cp campaign is the endless utterly unpopulated tracts of Cyrodiil. Hey, ismthat a red?? Nope...just a rabbit. Dang it. And even he’s bored in this campaign.

Haha *** is this? Sorc don't need to dodge, don't need to roll, don't need stamina at all! you say "My magsorc" but signature says Stamblade - don't get me wrong, you can have sorc but usualy main chars are placed there You know there was much more folks like you pretending to be OP magsorcs when played completly different classes? Post one vid of your OP mag sorc runing in Cyro with greetings for this trhead and we can talk seriously.

davey1107

@Mayrael

A few months ago I added icons to my characters in my signature, which messed it up and erased my other primary toons. Oops. I will ignore the irony of your inane gripe about my signature not mentioning my sorc when yours also doesn’t specifically mention a sorc, and just say that I don’t owe it to you to prove my game credentials to have an opinion on balance. So go suck a mud ball, lol.

My comment about dodging is an over-simplification, but I think most players know what I’m talking about. I’ll expand, though

My sorc has about 40k magic and runs hardened ward and harness Magicka, which together are providing 28k in shields. This costs 5000 magic. A player can on average maybe hit me for 1/3rd of this...9k Damage. So with that hit I can spend 1600 magic and let the shields take it, or I can dodge roll / block. A roll costs about 4K stam. If I just let the shields take it, I can convert that stamina into 9k Health and 5k more magic (actually, a little less stamina, 2300)

So what I said is entirely accurate. It’s more efficient to avoid blocking and dodging because you want to use the stamina pool to convert into the more valuable magic and health.

Sorcs are OP because of the conversion mechanisms in their abilities. My sorcs stamina pool represents a potential to generate 35,000 magic and 55,000 health. On top of this, power surge is generating heals that are something like 400% more efficient then the next comparable skill, rally. The sheer strength of the shields means sorcs can pass up a lot of,potential buffs in lieu of more resources...they almost always get more by adding more magic to their pool.

The current meta doesn’t make them gods, just marginally more powerful than other classes. If this isn’t want you’re experiencing, maybe you’re not as good a sorc player as you could be.

Biro123

davey1107 wrote: »

@Mayrael

A few months ago I added icons to my characters in my signature, which messed it up and erased my other primary toons. Oops. I will ignore the irony of your inane gripe about my signature not mentioning my sorc when yours also doesn’t specifically mention a sorc, and just say that I don’t owe it to you to prove my game credentials to have an opinion on balance. So go suck a mud ball, lol.

My comment about dodging is an over-simplification, but I think most players know what I’m talking about. I’ll expand, though

My sorc has about 40k magic and runs hardened ward and harness Magicka, which together are providing 28k in shields. This costs 5000 magic. A player can on average maybe hit me for 1/3rd of this...9k Damage. So with that hit I can spend 1600 magic and let the shields take it, or I can dodge roll / block. A roll costs about 4K stam. If I just let the shields take it, I can convert that stamina into 9k Health and 5k more magic (actually, a little less stamina, 2300)

So what I said is entirely accurate. It’s more efficient to avoid blocking and dodging because you want to use the stamina pool to convert into the more valuable magic and health.

Sorcs are OP because of the conversion mechanisms in their abilities. My sorcs stamina pool represents a potential to generate 35,000 magic and 55,000 health. On top of this, power surge is generating heals that are something like 400% more efficient then the next comparable skill, rally. The sheer strength of the shields means sorcs can pass up a lot of,potential buffs in lieu of more resources...they almost always get more by adding more magic to their pool.

The current meta doesn’t make them gods, just marginally more powerful than other classes. If this isn’t want you’re experiencing, maybe you’re not as good a sorc player as you could be.

That's kind of just not right. Your shields are halved in PvP, so that 28k shield is only 14k. 2 cooldowns worth to cast it. 2 CD's worth of DMG from a decent stam player is gonna be approaching 12k dmg. Without dodge you can easily end up stuck just spamming shields with no time to counter.
With just one more attacker, you die.

Relying on dark exchange for resources means with just one sorc spamming crushing shock, or just one stam player spamming la/ransack/bash, or one good player who knows when to interrupt and you run dry, and die.

Nah, you can't ignore mag recov, and you can't ignore stam and stam recov without having huge holes in your build.

Baconlad

Nerf to heals won't Nerf heals...Players will still build for the healing, but at a larger sacrifice to damage as it stands. I don't think you understand how much players need to build defense into their class as it is. You want usball to be tanks? Nerf to healing would cause that. As current nerfs already have.

Also....disease, you want to make the current cheese of stacking defile more needed. Just wait until you run into a solo player who's running duroks....you....will....loose....

Baconlad

*** if anything healing needs to be unerfed, so that the healing mechanics can work as intended, allowing weak ass classes to build in damage again. If I could heal back to 100% of health on my magplar again, I might not need to run sword and shield. Or bloodspawn and wizards riposte. All these nerfs did was force players to have to mitigate more damage PASSIVELY than before.

For *** sake the healing staff regeneration skill heals me for a *** ton of 800 a second non crit. Making it stupid to run. If it were buffed, I might actually be able to get away with running resto offbar, and drop all this sustain and defense I have. Making me more squish and needing to actively mitigate damage again instead of the current meta of PASSIVELY mitigating damage. So no man, don't Nerf my magplar again

Rainraven

Baconlad wrote: »

Nerf to heals won't Nerf heals...Players will still build for the healing, but at a larger sacrifice to damage as it stands. I don't think you understand how much players need to build defense into their class as it is. You want us all to be tanks? Nerf to healing would cause that. As current nerfs already have.

Exactly. You're tired of heals OP? I'm tired of HA tanks. At least with heals the health goes down and requires some kind of action on their part. They may even make a mistake and not get the heal off! Armor doesn't make mistakes.

Mayrael

davey1107 wrote: »

@Mayrael

A few months ago I added icons to my characters in my signature, which messed it up and erased my other primary toons. Oops. I will ignore the irony of your inane gripe about my signature not mentioning my sorc when yours also doesn’t specifically mention a sorc, and just say that I don’t owe it to you to prove my game credentials to have an opinion on balance. So go suck a mud ball, lol.

My comment about dodging is an over-simplification, but I think most players know what I’m talking about. I’ll expand, though

My sorc has about 40k magic and runs hardened ward and harness Magicka, which together are providing 28k in shields. This costs 5000 magic. A player can on average maybe hit me for 1/3rd of this...9k Damage. So with that hit I can spend 1600 magic and let the shields take it, or I can dodge roll / block. A roll costs about 4K stam. If I just let the shields take it, I can convert that stamina into 9k Health and 5k more magic (actually, quottle less stamina, 2300)

So what I said is entirely accurate. It’s more efficient to avoid blocking and dodging because you want to use the stamina pool to convert into the more valuable magic and health.

Sorcs are OP because of the conversion mechanisms in their abilities. My sorcs stamina pool represents a potential to generate 35,000 magic and 55,000 health. On top of this, power surge is generating heals that are something like 400% more efficient then the next comparable skill, rally. The sheer strength of the shields means sorcs can pass up a lot of,potential buffs in lieu of more resources...they almost always get more by adding more magic to their pool.

The current meta doesn’t make them gods, just marginally more powerful than other classes. If this isn’t want you’re experiencing, maybe you’re not as good a sorc player as you could be.

@Biro123 explained pretty good why you don't know even basics about sorcs, as I said, post one vid of your OP pvp sorc (with some mentioning abuot this thread to make sure its you and its current patch) maybe then I will take more seriously your arguments, but what youve already wrote makes it pretty obvious you have no idea about mag sorcs, maybe except that you don't know how to kill them. Maybe you are not as good as you think because my sorc and magplar have no issues with killing mag sorcs, stamina mate - this kills sorcs, lack of stamina, your dumb statement that sorcs don't need it was enough for me to make sure that you don't actualy pvp on mag sorc. 28k shields in pvp can be reached only when on low health and using 3 sields that will cost over 10k magicka (not to mention trying to presure enemy). Also surge 400% better than rally? Loled hard. First of all power surge (which is used by mag sorcs not critical surge - used by STAM sorcs) heals are arround 2x stronger, also surge heals are bound to critical hits so they dont proc as often as rally. Lastly rally gives big burst heal on demand - not spamable but every few seconds its quite nice while surge doesn't have sucha feature. In the end I would be at least very causios to claim that surge is 400% better than rally as this could lead to to making a fool of my self.

Also you say "Sorcs are OP because..." and a bit later "The current meta doesn’t make them gods, just marginally more powerful than other classes." this two statements are a bit different. Please choose one.

SugaComa

Why are we all discussing zerg busting ?

I'm sorry but an organised raid or a large group will always beat a solo player, either get used to it or continue to hope for those lucky breaks where you get a few down with a bomb and scatter them enough to hit the remainders

How ever this thread is about over performing heals now if the problem is over performing heals with in a group well that's what having a healer in the group is for but some magicka builds have restro staffs to help heal that's cool

But the stamina build should not have stamina based heals that's just wrong

Instead they should have something that decreases damage and increases health recovery but not actually heal ... Like an adrenaline shot

All heals should come from the magic pool

But all classes should have access to a self heal and an adrenaline booster preferably as a morph of the other

VaranisArano

SugaComa wrote: »

But the stamina build should not have stamina based heals that's just wrong

Instead they should have something that decreases damage and increases health recovery but not actually heal ... Like an adrenaline shot

All heals should come from the magic pool

But all classes should have access to a self heal and an adrenaline booster preferably as a morph of the other

If you are going to say that all classes should have access to a self heal, its time to recognize that the stamina versions of classes need a stamina-scaling self-heal just as much as the magicka classes need a magicka-scaling self-heal in PVP. This is obvious in Cyrodiil small scale but especially obvious in Battlegrounds where your suggestion would put stamina characters at an extreme disadvantage compared to magicka characters. That's why Vigor is in the Alliance War skill line in the first place, because PVP is the one place where stamina players have to be able to heal themselves without a pocket healer.

(Wardens also completely negate your argument, having been designed by ZOS to be effective healers whether they go stamina or magicka. Its almost like the first new class since the start of the game was properly designed for people to go with stamina or magicka, unlike the other classes that preceded that meta.)

Animus-ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Even with 60 points into befoul it doesn't feel like soul harvest is enough; also it's clunky & can miss.

Try a better method of applying defile

Surprised after that duel tournament more people aren't running durok's

You shut your mouth. As a templar I do not support this meta -_-

idk

alexthomp92 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I can only assume OP is speaking to PvP. There are skills and sets that can be worn to reduce the healing others receive. CP increases the effectiveness for this.

Your problem has not been solved.

These can be cleansed as they are status effects so magplar ritual takes this off and class skill line then buffs healing by giving minor mending for 3 seconds giving a Enough time to move around a corner and heal to full health, force your opponents into the open or walk away if they chase you to open space then you can get them.

Not certain what your point is. It's the same for everyone and few have issues with any of this.

SugaComa

VaranisArano wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

But the stamina build should not have stamina based heals that's just wrong

Instead they should have something that decreases damage and increases health recovery but not actually heal ... Like an adrenaline shot

All heals should come from the magic pool

But all classes should have access to a self heal and an adrenaline booster preferably as a morph of the other

If you are going to say that all classes should have access to a self heal, its time to recognize that the stamina versions of classes need a stamina-scaling self-heal just as much as the magicka classes need a magicka-scaling self-heal in PVP. This is obvious in Cyrodiil small scale but especially obvious in Battlegrounds where your suggestion would put stamina characters at an extreme disadvantage compared to magicka characters. That's why Vigor is in the Alliance War skill line in the first place, because PVP is the one place where stamina players have to be able to heal themselves without a pocket healer.

(Wardens also completely negate your argument, having been designed by ZOS to be effective healers whether they go stamina or magicka. Its almost like the first new class since the start of the game was properly designed for people to go with stamina or magicka, unlike the other classes that preceded that meta.)

We have differing opinions on this I wouldn't say I'm right you're wrong as I see your argument

I just feel heals should be magicka based and some kind of damage mitigation should come from a stamina base

I think every skill should have a stamina or magica morph with subtle difference

The heal Vs damage reduction being one

I feel that the game would benefit from having stamina and magic morphs on class abilities and more magica based weapons or a magica morph on the dual wields and SnB skill lines so we can make more diverse builds

I'm still against stamina self heals though but also for an adrenaline booster that increases health recovery and reduces damage but as I said it's just an opinion one I hope you can respect even if you disagree

alexthomp92

idk wrote: »

alexthomp92 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Not certain what your point is. It's the same for everyone and few have issues with any of this.

My point is reinforcing yours that these reduce heal sets/potions/skills etc aren't a solid solution to the mega heal but as a magplar my heals are strong most of the time but when people place heal reduction effects and I'm taking lots of pressure I need line of sight to cleanse then heal, if people allow me to use line of sight I can ping my health bar back to full easily but if I'm pressured away from objects then I can't pull of a heal combo, if you can make it awkward for your opponent to use line of sight against you then expect their healing to be weaker
Edit for typo

davey1107

@Mayrael

We can discuss the issues you raise, sure, but you don’t have to be petulant and boorish. It’s a game...you don’t have to unzip every time you encounter an idea you disagree with, lol.


Surge vs Rally

Having played since release, I don’t always identify morphs by their exact name if it’s self evident which would be used. I’m sorry if this was confusing, but if discussing magsorcs we will be examining power surge. (Both magsorcs and stam sorcs are OP, in my opinion, and the math works out for surge more or less the same for either). I also round up numbers because this is a rough illustration.

Rally costs 2000 stamina. For this you get approx. 15,000 HOT and 8,000 burst. So let’s say this “costs” you 8.6 cents per unit of healing.

Surge is a different mechanic, so it can deliver varying returns. At a minimum, a magsorc should be able to get a crit hit at least every 2 seconds given the various damage ticks, in which case for 3,000 magic you get approx 44k heals, or 6.8 cents per unit. The 8.6 vs 6.8 is an example of one of those “marginal” differences.

When I said 400% better, that was hyperbolic, but not entirely off base. I was referring to the maximum benefit of the abilities. Rally caps around the figures above at 23k in potential heals. Surge offers a cap of about 85,000 in potential heals over time. So that’s 270% more powerful...not really four times. Players don’t, of course, maximize on either ability, and we can debate what the average yield is, but in terms of raw potential Surge beats Rally.


Shield stacking

Again, we could debate or more finely define the numbers. I used tool tip figures...which of course change in Cyrodiil. I personally prefer to use tool tips, unbuffed, because it’s the best apples to apples comparison.

Regardless, there’s really no argument that sorc play strategy involves allowing shields to take some hits over dodging or blocking. And there’s really no argument that sorcs can convert stamina into magic and health to keep the shields up.

No matter where a sorc is fighting or what abilities they slot, they always get more power out of the 5,000 magic they pull out of dark conversion than they could from the 2200 stamina it costs. So no, sorcs don’t use their stam pools the same way other magic classes do. They generally convert s lot of it, depending on content. (But in the current meta, it’d be pretty unwise to forego conversion.)


OP or marginally better?

I didn’t think the language was that hard, honestly. Often (always, lol) when we discuss an OP class or ability, people like you jump in and scream that you can kill sorcs and they have weaknesses and blah blah blah. That represents a basic misunderstanding of what OP means.

Being over-powered means that in the context of the game mechanics, something offers an edge that other classes/builds don’t have access to. It means there’s a little more potential there, which can also be described as “marginally better.”

It does not mean that every player will or can take advantage of being OP. If designers offered an ability that gave a toon an insta-kill curse 10 seconds after proc, that is an OP ability even if the player stinks and never survives the full ten seconds to get the kill.

So yes, I kill endless sorcs. And not because they’re necessarily bad players. To take advantage of what I think is OP, they have to be in position to do so. If they aren’t ready to fight, haven’t saved us their resources, are standing in a bad location, etc, then being OP won’t help them.

However, in fights where we assume an experienced player is using the full potential of their skills, gear and rotation, sorcs can mitigate a little more damage than other classes, heal a little better, output a little more damage, and definitely keep resources up easier. That’s what I refer to as marginally better and therefore OP. Even if a class is only 2% better, that’s still an issue of being over-powered.

(I mean...are you contending that the game is perfectly balanced? Because that’d be a new one in these forums, ha.)


So why do devs let sorcs remain OP?

There have been a lot of theories. I have a hypothesis that has nothing to do with conspiracies or favoritism. I worked on an MMO (not a Zenimax property), and saw some of the game data when we redesigned the UI.

I think what happens is that a lot of weak players and a lot of very good players choose magsorc. This has the effect of hiding over-performance of certain abilities when the data is averaged.

The same happens on any class. My stamblade snipes for 16k. That’s above average (we hope). The reports ZOS generate on snipe would reflect some lower figure for what sort of damage Snipe is outputting. If other players are sniping for 5k, then my 16k won’t raise red flags because it won’t show up in the average.

I suspect that all of the newbie magsorc players are pulling down the averages, making it look like sorcs are more balanced than they are. Or perhaps ZOS knows that sorcs are OP for expert players, but leave them that way because they don’t want to kneecap less experienced players.

Whatever the reasons, sorcs have been listed as the easiest class to play endgame pve content like VMSA and a best class for pvp for a really long time on most expert guides. That’s pretty strong evidence that they’re a bit OP.

CyrusArya

"davey1107 wrote: »

So why do devs let sorcs remain OP?

They don’t. Sorc hasn’t truly been op on a very long time. You’re just oblivious/clueless, like most ppl who think sorcs are op. Why do you think sorcs are virtually non existent in the duelling scene? Because they simply cannot reliably go toe to toe in equally skilled match ups vs other classes these days.

Waffennacht

As you learn and grow as a player and eventually move into the more extreme PvP, you'll realize, sorc is not OP

davey1107

@CyrusArya

Not clueless, just more educated in high level maths that no one needs to learn unless they specialize in such things. But as part of my degrees I took like fifteen semesters of calculus, statistics, probabilities, physics, macroeconomics, etc, which can make the programming mechanics of the game more apparent. As far as games go, ESO is a little complex, but not THAT complex, so it’s not overly difficult to calculate the baseline value of abilities, resources, etc.

But one doesn’t need to understand the exact formulas and numbers to see the fallacy of your point - when we say a class is overpowered this does not mean they are invincible, or that they win all the time, or that they are even easier to play. It means that their full potential sits at least a little above other classes.

My hypothesis is that sorcs are 2-10% more powerful than other classes. If true, that’s not something that an average player would necessarily pick up on. I mean, that sort of power is just a fraction of what one would obtain with a buff like major brutality / sorcery. I mention this because it helps illustrate the point more clearly. Can many of the best players beat most everyone without their major brutality / sorcery buffs up? Sure. And do inexperience players still lose a lot even with the buff up? Yes.

If we charted an entire class in terms of total performance, we’d wind up with a curve of some sort (probably not a true bell curve). Most players sit somewhere near the median or the mean. If we then chart another class and create an overlay, we’d have another curve with another median/mean sitting next to the first. If sorcs are indeed 2% more powerful than, say, magplars, then what that’d mean in head to head fights is that a sorc player pulls even with a Magplar who is a teeny, tiny bit ahead of them on the x-axis of that curve. It doesn’t mean that an exactly average player can compete against a magplar who is three standard deviations from the mean. It’s like saying that someone with a 103 IQ should slightly outperform someone with a 100 IQ in a series of logic puzzles. There’s not a dramatic difference in smarts there...perhaps not even a measurable difference...and in a series of logic puzzles you’d have the lower IQ player win frequently.

But that’s a bit in the weeds and sidesteps the fundamentals,of the debate. You are claiming that sorcs are not OP, while I am hypothesizing that they are. There’s a difference between saying something is true and saying something is possibly true. The only way to ascertain if sorcs really are more powerful would be to dive into data that ZOS keeps proprietary. As such, I continue being right in saying that they could possibly be more powerful, while you continue to be wrong in saying you’re sure they’re not. This goes to an old joke in probabilities...don’t ever date a statistician, because they’ll always be right even when they are factually incorrect.

Anyway, it’s not really clear why sorc players are so offended by the idea that they overperforma bit. You’d assume it’d be the magic Wardens whomwould be snowflakes, but no, lol. It’s obvious that at any given moment in the game there will be over-powered abilities and classes. Otherwise the game would be in perfect balance. We all accept that it’s not in perfect balance, so we can certainly accept opinions on what might be imbalanced. I mean...I play stamblade...like I said before, snipe is a bit over-powered in Pvp. If someone disagrees I don’t feel emotionally distraught over it, or feel the need to compulsively hurl insults. It causes one to wonder what it is about the internet that creates such a total lack of tact or diplomacy. But I’m not sure math has the answer to that question.

Vaoh

Waffennacht wrote: »

As you learn and grow as a player and eventually move into the more extreme PvP, you'll realize, sorc is not OP

^^^ at a time it was very strong but now a Warden is legit a stronger version of Sorc. Even the burst is the same but Warden doesn’t have to deal with the risks and can activate Scorch without seeing a target.

Sorc itself is just not very good as a whole for solo play nowadays. Dark Exchange is very clunky and easy to bash since the nerf (mainly a clunky mess in lag). Mag Sorcs mainly rely on Bolt Escape to live which can be far less helpful in lag and is bad with non-flat terrain as well as doorways (due to bugs).

Damage Shields in general are no longer as powerful in recent patches since Damage taken in PvP by a single target has increased by a *lot*. Resistances mitigate damage by a percent value which makes the increased damage not so noticeable on Stamina (setups where health takes the damage). Damage Shields are a flat amount and take much more damage now/break easily by a single Stam NB. What Mag Sorc has less of than any other Mag spec is Health/resistances too....

The current “meta” for being ridiculously strong solo is running a Heavy Armor Stam build that procs huge Weapon Damage through sets and uses mobility (Forward Momentum mainly) to survive. Stam Warden is really good for this because they have good mobility from 14sec Major Expedition buff that comes with Minor Evasion. Also their sustain and heals are nice and they get Major Savagery.

It’s probably the most powerful class spec these days because of the snare meta and increased damage since their particular class can mitigate those things. If CPs were not so ridiculous and some Heavy Armor sets were not so OP then PvP would be much more interesting.

And before anyone gets offended that’s not saying Sorc sucks at all or even needs buffs. The CP system and power creep is ruining everything - not individual class balance.

Saint_Bud

I am tired from the perma roller.
Heals are not to strong, there isnt a heal in the game that can heal from nearly zero to full health in pvp. Shilds problem is that they not taking crit damage and can be stackt.

Biro123

@davey1107

You may know your maths, but you're missing the reality of how it plays.

Surge *may* give you a tick every 2 seconds.. But this is while the sorc is on the attack and not under pressure - ie. when those heals aren't needed. They are generally wasted cos you're already full health.
The mechanics of shields means that when under pressure, a sorc is using all his cooldowns to defend - not to attack. And a lack of Dots in the sorc toolkit means that basically when you want those heals - you don't get them.

There is a reason most 2-h stamsorc builds use rally rather than surge. And there is a reason many stamsorc builds go for 2-hander.. The on-demand burst heal outweighs an unreliable tick, and it is also much easier on your very limited mag pool.

Dark Exchange - yes IS mathematically superior - but again, in the real world (well, when I say real world, I mean game world) - it is too easily interrupted when needed - and also your stam is too precious a resource to risk (breakfree/dodge from roots, block cc's dodging burst) unless you build up plenty of stam and stam recov - but you still have the interrupt risk.. Much better off putting those resources into mag recov, freeing up a slot and NOT using dark exchange.

Honestly your view of sorcs is VERY skewed (and out of date).

Lucky28

kaithuzar wrote: »

Even with 60 points into befoul it doesn't feel like soul harvest is enough; also it's clunky & can miss.

pretty sure soul harvest cannot miss. only incap can be dodged. that was something i noticed when playing around with incap vs harvest.