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A comprehensive reason why racial passives should be changed.
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess 0 -
Rohaus✭✭✭✭✭I prefer Nord over all other races... I played Nord race for the vast majority of my time in ESO... when race change came out, I reluctantly changed my Nord to Redguard.... Redguard are cool but Nord just was so perfect to me... but holy cow did I see a MASSIVE difference in terms of sustain while fighting people.
Instead of neutering the races to homogenize them all... I would instead prefer the option to choose your own racials instead... then ZOS can realize the imbalance of what people are choosing and go from there.
It is kind of like weapon traits... how long was Sharpened THE go to for DPS? Now, we actually have options and that's a good thing!YouTube channel Rohaus Lives!
Daggerfall Covenant
VR16 DragonKnight0 -
Hixtory✭✭✭✭Icy_Waffles wrote: »All they need to do is put racial passives under birthstones, let us pick a race foe aesthetics/ preference, and then choose a birthstone for passives.
There, he fixed it0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Play for role playing immersion
Play for performance
Choose one.
The current system adds a unique dynamic to character building and game play. Furthermore, at this point there is too much sunk cost for the system to be scrapped. They literally profit off of race changes in the crown store. The race change scroll existing is solid testament to the legitimacy and support of racials. At this point you’re beating a dead horse.4 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
Animus-ESO✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Choosing these races will make a huge difference in terms of performance .
Bad idea.
I'm sorry, but, no, this one is a pretty terrible idea.
I understand the impulse, but when you start carving up the classes like this, you end up with two problems.
First, anyone who picks the "wrong" race because it looked cool, or whatever, is hosed. Now, you can get away with this in single player games, but when you're asking a new player to make a permanent decision about the effectiveness of their character, based on minimal information, before they've learned the game... that's not going to end well. Especially when you walk up and tell them, "hey, kid, I can fix this problem for $20."
Second, the races aren't balanced by alliance. I know, you carved them up that way, up there. But, when you've got an alliance that is all Damage Dealers, that's going to create some imbalances. Especially when you can't even roll up a tank for them without shelling out another $20. Now, granted, this is a PvP concern... but it is a serious PvP concern.
I mean, I respect the idea, and there's a legitimate goal there. But, I don't think this is the answer.
Bro did you read this post? That is exactly what racials are now. I want them changed. Races are hyper imbalanced right now.Dude Where's My Guar?0 -
Animus-ESO✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?Dude Where's My Guar?0 -
Animus-ESO✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?Dude Where's My Guar?0 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Play for role playing immersion
Play for performance
Choose one.
The current system adds a unique dynamic to character building and game play. Furthermore, at this point there is too much sunk cost for the system to be scrapped. They literally profit off of race changes in the crown store. The race change scroll existing is solid testament to the legitimacy and support of racials. At this point you’re beating a dead horse.
How exactly does racials add a "unique dynamic" to character building? It's either you pick the right race or have a decisively harder time playing the game and that is NOT how an MMO should work. Play a Magic Redguard vs Breton and you'll notice an enormous difference in performance in all areas, be it survivability, damage, or sustain that makes the game more tedious than it honestly should. Even in what should be casual content like dungeons, by being a sub-optimal race, you are purposefully hurting the performance of your group because of your race alone that everyone else has to pick up the slack for.
Race change being available in the crown store is also not an excuse either as there are other MMOs that have that option but race is largely cosmetic, such as in FFXIV.Argonian forever0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.Edited by Joy_Division on December 14, 2017 6:55PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
Implying that most of game isn't already carbon copies. You say that it takes away from choice but the player base does that by default. Just read these forums to see how narrow your actually choices are in actually. "Oh, you're a healer? Why aren't you using a Lightning Staff for Wall of Elements? You're a scrub." kicked.
Keep up E Drain, use orbs, combat prayer, purge. Where is the choice exactly? And that's just for healers. For DPS, your job is to optimize your damage, which means you need to wear X sets with Divines Trait, need to use Y skills over Z skills because they're better, etc. Choice is all but an Illusion in ESO as everyone is already overly judgmental about how everyone should play and race is just another thing you're judged on.Argonian forever1 -
Animus-ESO✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
If your racials are doing nothing for you, Why are you defending racials so damn hard then? Like LOL whats the point of even having them if you are like "I dont care if im min maxed."Dude Where's My Guar?0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
If your racials are doing nothing for you, Why are you defending racials so damn hard then? Like LOL whats the point of even having them if you are like "I dont care if im min maxed."
Because I still believe in diversity and choices that matter. The problem is that the race I chose stinks. Not that every race is different. If I had chosen to play an Argonian or a Redguard, I'd be tickled pink.
How you solve the situation is to buff racial - and anything else that stinks - such that we can still choose different stuff and have basically the same amount of power/effectiveness.
@Silver_Strider - I have been playing the wrong race healer using the wrong skills according to the healer "meta" for 3 years now and people keep inviting me to their groups.
In my experience, people don't start asking and criticizing your build until AFTER poor play and wipes happen. Provided you do your role effectively and efficiently, you're not going to get kicked.
Again, racials are like any other choice we make it this game, class, morph, gear, mundas, trait, ultimates, etc., if something is "bad," then the solution is to buff it so it can compete with the alternatives, not eliminate from the game.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Keep racial passives as they are, it makes for interesting playtime building around your toons aptitudes0 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
If your racials are doing nothing for you, Why are you defending racials so damn hard then? Like LOL whats the point of even having them if you are like "I dont care if im min maxed."
Because I still believe in diversity and choices that matter. The problem is that the race I chose stinks. Not that every race is different. If I had chosen to play an Argonian or a Redguard, I'd be tickled pink.
How you solve the situation is to buff racial - and anything else that stinks - such that we can still choose different stuff and have basically the same amount of power/effectiveness.
@Silver_Strider - I have been playing the wrong race healer using the wrong skills according to the healer "meta" for 3 years now and people keep inviting me to their groups.
In my experience, people don't start asking and criticizing your build until AFTER poor play and wipes happen. Provided you do your role effectively and efficiently, you're not going to get kicked.
Again, racials are like any other choice we make it this game, class, morph, gear, mundas, trait, ultimates, etc., if something is "bad," then the solution is to buff it so it can compete with the alternatives, not eliminate from the game.
Your experience is not shared by everyone though. I've been kicked from several groups on my Stamblade, just because I was an Argonian, sometimes even before the run even started. Last time I was kicked, it was in vRoM, we kept dying to Chudan because no one was doing the mechanics to have Chudan charge and kill the Lightning add except me but I was deemed the problem because I was a Stam Argonian. Not the Tank that was made of toilet paper and died to every tank buster, not the healer that threw out all of 2 heals with everyone else basically healing themselves at that point, it was my Stamblade that was the issue.
Buffing racials is not the answer. In fact, I think they should be flat out nerfed to all hell so that their bonuses are mostly insignificant. I'm talking things like the Gift of Magnus Passive offering 200/350/500 max magic at best. That way, it's lore friendly, there's still "uniqueness" among the races without them being too powerful, and min/maxers can still min max.Edited by Silver_Strider on December 15, 2017 10:11AMArgonian forever0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Joy_Division dropping truth bombs. I also have a Nord, though warden, healer and no one has ever complained about my heals. I may not be on joys level but what he has said is spot on. The biggest truth is that most people don't care what race you are as long as you do your role and do it well.
You say "I am talking about 4-5k DPS difference" and then provide no parses that the only thing that is different is race. Provide some evidence and we will see exactly what size difference you are talking about. I predict less then 5% difference between best and worst, ie mag sorc high elf and a wood elf.0 -
WatchYourSixx✭✭✭✭Honestly don't see your point. You can play literally any race with any class and do just as good as anyone else. I had a redguard Magicka DK for a while that pulled solid numbers. Sure he wasn't top 5%, but that doesn't matter. The only time race matters is for one thing.
MIN-MAX. And let's be honest! Who the f cares about dps or being really good WITHOUT caring about min-max. Even if it's a *** .000002% dps increase, you bet your ass all the min maxers will want to use it. Like me.
Think about this for a moment. Infused is only effectively 0.37% worse than divines in pve. So why do people say divines divines divines? Why do people use divines divines divines??? Because it's better. Simple as that.
Race will always matter in the context you give unless there is no "best" which makes your appearance more diverse, but the playstyles all the same. Lame.The only thing to fear is, fear itself. - FDR
CP 800
PC NA
- Maximus the Marksman (AD) Temp
- Rex the Unstoppable Force (DC) DK
- Sodor Dragonfire (DC) DK
- Masha'Dar Shadow-Paw (DC) NB
- Magnus the Mage (DC) Sorc1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
If your racials are doing nothing for you, Why are you defending racials so damn hard then? Like LOL whats the point of even having them if you are like "I dont care if im min maxed."
Because I still believe in diversity and choices that matter. The problem is that the race I chose stinks. Not that every race is different. If I had chosen to play an Argonian or a Redguard, I'd be tickled pink.
How you solve the situation is to buff racial - and anything else that stinks - such that we can still choose different stuff and have basically the same amount of power/effectiveness.
@Silver_Strider - I have been playing the wrong race healer using the wrong skills according to the healer "meta" for 3 years now and people keep inviting me to their groups.
In my experience, people don't start asking and criticizing your build until AFTER poor play and wipes happen. Provided you do your role effectively and efficiently, you're not going to get kicked.
Again, racials are like any other choice we make it this game, class, morph, gear, mundas, trait, ultimates, etc., if something is "bad," then the solution is to buff it so it can compete with the alternatives, not eliminate from the game.
Your experience is not shared by everyone though. I've been kicked from several groups on my Stamblade, just because I was an Argonian, sometimes even before the run even started. Last time I was kicked, it was in vRoM, we kept dying to Chudan because no one was doing the mechanics to have Chudan charge and kill the Lightning add except me but I was deemed the problem because I was a Stam Argonian. Not the Tank that was made of toilet paper and died to every tank buster, not the healer that threw out all of 2 heals with everyone else basically healing themselves at that point, it was my Stamblade that was the issue.
Buffing racials is not the answer. In fact, I think they should be flat out nerfed to all hell so that their bonuses are mostly insignificant. I'm talking things like the Gift of Magnus Passive offering 200/350/500 max magic at best. That way, it's lore friendly, there's still "uniqueness" among the races without them being too powerful, and min/maxers can still min max.
I have never been kicked from a group in over three years.
Your nerfs are not lore friendly because lorewise and by precedent, the bonuses are not mostly insignificant. Practice your DPS on a target dummy and you won't get kicked from groups
Edited by Joy_Division on December 15, 2017 2:39PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
MercTheMage✭✭✭✭I'd rather slit my nuts off with a hot spoon than support removing racial passives.
Edited by MercTheMage on December 15, 2017 2:40PMYou just going to stand there like a lemon?0 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
If your racials are doing nothing for you, Why are you defending racials so damn hard then? Like LOL whats the point of even having them if you are like "I dont care if im min maxed."
Because I still believe in diversity and choices that matter. The problem is that the race I chose stinks. Not that every race is different. If I had chosen to play an Argonian or a Redguard, I'd be tickled pink.
How you solve the situation is to buff racial - and anything else that stinks - such that we can still choose different stuff and have basically the same amount of power/effectiveness.
@Silver_Strider - I have been playing the wrong race healer using the wrong skills according to the healer "meta" for 3 years now and people keep inviting me to their groups.
In my experience, people don't start asking and criticizing your build until AFTER poor play and wipes happen. Provided you do your role effectively and efficiently, you're not going to get kicked.
Again, racials are like any other choice we make it this game, class, morph, gear, mundas, trait, ultimates, etc., if something is "bad," then the solution is to buff it so it can compete with the alternatives, not eliminate from the game.
Your experience is not shared by everyone though. I've been kicked from several groups on my Stamblade, just because I was an Argonian, sometimes even before the run even started. Last time I was kicked, it was in vRoM, we kept dying to Chudan because no one was doing the mechanics to have Chudan charge and kill the Lightning add except me but I was deemed the problem because I was a Stam Argonian. Not the Tank that was made of toilet paper and died to every tank buster, not the healer that threw out all of 2 heals with everyone else basically healing themselves at that point, it was my Stamblade that was the issue.
Buffing racials is not the answer. In fact, I think they should be flat out nerfed to all hell so that their bonuses are mostly insignificant. I'm talking things like the Gift of Magnus Passive offering 200/350/500 max magic at best. That way, it's lore friendly, there's still "uniqueness" among the races without them being too powerful, and min/maxers can still min max.
I have never been kicked from a group in over three years.
Your nerfs are not lore friendly because lorewise and by precedent, the bonuses are not mostly insignificant. Practice your DPS on a target dummy and you won't get kicked from groups
Again, your experiences do not speak for everyone.
I do a respectable 32k DPS last I checked with my Stamblade, so I don't believe that was the issue. It was simply a scapegoat excuse for bad players because they refuse to acknowledge themselves as the problem.
Lorewise, Atlmer are also weak to magic but that detail is suspiciously absent. Also, Shalidor being one of the most powerful mages, despite being a Nord, sort of underplays that racials are of any significance as well. You're grasping at straws at this point.Edited by Silver_Strider on December 15, 2017 3:27PMArgonian forever0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
If your racials are doing nothing for you, Why are you defending racials so damn hard then? Like LOL whats the point of even having them if you are like "I dont care if im min maxed."
Because I still believe in diversity and choices that matter. The problem is that the race I chose stinks. Not that every race is different. If I had chosen to play an Argonian or a Redguard, I'd be tickled pink.
How you solve the situation is to buff racial - and anything else that stinks - such that we can still choose different stuff and have basically the same amount of power/effectiveness.
@Silver_Strider - I have been playing the wrong race healer using the wrong skills according to the healer "meta" for 3 years now and people keep inviting me to their groups.
In my experience, people don't start asking and criticizing your build until AFTER poor play and wipes happen. Provided you do your role effectively and efficiently, you're not going to get kicked.
Again, racials are like any other choice we make it this game, class, morph, gear, mundas, trait, ultimates, etc., if something is "bad," then the solution is to buff it so it can compete with the alternatives, not eliminate from the game.
Your experience is not shared by everyone though. I've been kicked from several groups on my Stamblade, just because I was an Argonian, sometimes even before the run even started. Last time I was kicked, it was in vRoM, we kept dying to Chudan because no one was doing the mechanics to have Chudan charge and kill the Lightning add except me but I was deemed the problem because I was a Stam Argonian. Not the Tank that was made of toilet paper and died to every tank buster, not the healer that threw out all of 2 heals with everyone else basically healing themselves at that point, it was my Stamblade that was the issue.
Buffing racials is not the answer. In fact, I think they should be flat out nerfed to all hell so that their bonuses are mostly insignificant. I'm talking things like the Gift of Magnus Passive offering 200/350/500 max magic at best. That way, it's lore friendly, there's still "uniqueness" among the races without them being too powerful, and min/maxers can still min max.
I have never been kicked from a group in over three years.
Your nerfs are not lore friendly because lorewise and by precedent, the bonuses are not mostly insignificant. Practice your DPS on a target dummy and you won't get kicked from groups
Again, your experiences do not speak for everyone.
I do a respectable 32k DPS last I checked with my Stamblade, so I don't believe that was the issue. It was simply a scapegoat excuse for bad players because they refuse to acknowledge themselves as the problem.
Lorewise, Atlmer are also weak to magic but that detail is suspiciously absent. Also, Shalidor being one of the most powerful mages, despite being a Nord, sort of underplays that racials are of any significance as well. You're grasping at straws at this point.
I'm grasping at straws?
Just because you're get kicked from groups doesn't mean the devs have to completely revamp a system that's been in every ES game. If you're constantly getting kicked from groups, then that suggests you're the common element, I don't know how that can be deduced differently
Racials have been in every Elder Scrolls game including this one from the beginning. I think the devs are on my side here. I have no need to grasp for straws.Edited by Joy_Division on December 15, 2017 7:30PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
If your racials are doing nothing for you, Why are you defending racials so damn hard then? Like LOL whats the point of even having them if you are like "I dont care if im min maxed."
Because I still believe in diversity and choices that matter. The problem is that the race I chose stinks. Not that every race is different. If I had chosen to play an Argonian or a Redguard, I'd be tickled pink.
How you solve the situation is to buff racial - and anything else that stinks - such that we can still choose different stuff and have basically the same amount of power/effectiveness.
@Silver_Strider - I have been playing the wrong race healer using the wrong skills according to the healer "meta" for 3 years now and people keep inviting me to their groups.
In my experience, people don't start asking and criticizing your build until AFTER poor play and wipes happen. Provided you do your role effectively and efficiently, you're not going to get kicked.
Again, racials are like any other choice we make it this game, class, morph, gear, mundas, trait, ultimates, etc., if something is "bad," then the solution is to buff it so it can compete with the alternatives, not eliminate from the game.
Your experience is not shared by everyone though. I've been kicked from several groups on my Stamblade, just because I was an Argonian, sometimes even before the run even started. Last time I was kicked, it was in vRoM, we kept dying to Chudan because no one was doing the mechanics to have Chudan charge and kill the Lightning add except me but I was deemed the problem because I was a Stam Argonian. Not the Tank that was made of toilet paper and died to every tank buster, not the healer that threw out all of 2 heals with everyone else basically healing themselves at that point, it was my Stamblade that was the issue.
Buffing racials is not the answer. In fact, I think they should be flat out nerfed to all hell so that their bonuses are mostly insignificant. I'm talking things like the Gift of Magnus Passive offering 200/350/500 max magic at best. That way, it's lore friendly, there's still "uniqueness" among the races without them being too powerful, and min/maxers can still min max.
I have never been kicked from a group in over three years.
Your nerfs are not lore friendly because lorewise and by precedent, the bonuses are not mostly insignificant. Practice your DPS on a target dummy and you won't get kicked from groups
Again, your experiences do not speak for everyone.
I do a respectable 32k DPS last I checked with my Stamblade, so I don't believe that was the issue. It was simply a scapegoat excuse for bad players because they refuse to acknowledge themselves as the problem.
Lorewise, Atlmer are also weak to magic but that detail is suspiciously absent. Also, Shalidor being one of the most powerful mages, despite being a Nord, sort of underplays that racials are of any significance as well. You're grasping at straws at this point.
I'm grasping at straws?
Just because you're get kicked from groups doesn't mean the devs have to completely revamp a system that's been in every ES game. If you're constantly getting kicked from groups, then that suggests you're the common element, I don't know how that can be deduced differently
Racials have been in every Elder Scrolls game including this one from the beginning. I think the devs are on my side here. I have no need to grasp for straws.
But Racials in past ES games had little to no impact on your character and how they played whereas they play a much larger part here.
I also never claimed to constantly being kicked from group but I have been kicked and every time it was with players that couldn't do the content and looked for any scapegoat excuse to blame anyone but themselves. Why should race be that excuse?
Even when I gave a viable alternative in which racials would still exist but weaker, you complained it wasn't lore friendly with absolutely 0 reasoning as to how it wasn't Lore Friendly. Why? BECAUSE YOU ARE GRASPING AT STRAWS!!!!Edited by Silver_Strider on December 15, 2017 7:47PMArgonian forever0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
If your racials are doing nothing for you, Why are you defending racials so damn hard then? Like LOL whats the point of even having them if you are like "I dont care if im min maxed."
Because I still believe in diversity and choices that matter. The problem is that the race I chose stinks. Not that every race is different. If I had chosen to play an Argonian or a Redguard, I'd be tickled pink.
How you solve the situation is to buff racial - and anything else that stinks - such that we can still choose different stuff and have basically the same amount of power/effectiveness.
@Silver_Strider - I have been playing the wrong race healer using the wrong skills according to the healer "meta" for 3 years now and people keep inviting me to their groups.
In my experience, people don't start asking and criticizing your build until AFTER poor play and wipes happen. Provided you do your role effectively and efficiently, you're not going to get kicked.
Again, racials are like any other choice we make it this game, class, morph, gear, mundas, trait, ultimates, etc., if something is "bad," then the solution is to buff it so it can compete with the alternatives, not eliminate from the game.
Your experience is not shared by everyone though. I've been kicked from several groups on my Stamblade, just because I was an Argonian, sometimes even before the run even started. Last time I was kicked, it was in vRoM, we kept dying to Chudan because no one was doing the mechanics to have Chudan charge and kill the Lightning add except me but I was deemed the problem because I was a Stam Argonian. Not the Tank that was made of toilet paper and died to every tank buster, not the healer that threw out all of 2 heals with everyone else basically healing themselves at that point, it was my Stamblade that was the issue.
Buffing racials is not the answer. In fact, I think they should be flat out nerfed to all hell so that their bonuses are mostly insignificant. I'm talking things like the Gift of Magnus Passive offering 200/350/500 max magic at best. That way, it's lore friendly, there's still "uniqueness" among the races without them being too powerful, and min/maxers can still min max.
I have never been kicked from a group in over three years.
Your nerfs are not lore friendly because lorewise and by precedent, the bonuses are not mostly insignificant. Practice your DPS on a target dummy and you won't get kicked from groups
Again, your experiences do not speak for everyone.
I do a respectable 32k DPS last I checked with my Stamblade, so I don't believe that was the issue. It was simply a scapegoat excuse for bad players because they refuse to acknowledge themselves as the problem.
Lorewise, Atlmer are also weak to magic but that detail is suspiciously absent. Also, Shalidor being one of the most powerful mages, despite being a Nord, sort of underplays that racials are of any significance as well. You're grasping at straws at this point.
I'm grasping at straws?
Just because you're get kicked from groups doesn't mean the devs have to completely revamp a system that's been in every ES game. If you're constantly getting kicked from groups, then that suggests you're the common element, I don't know how that can be deduced differently
Racials have been in every Elder Scrolls game including this one from the beginning. I think the devs are on my side here. I have no need to grasp for straws.
But Racials in past ES games had little to no impact on your character and how they played whereas they play a much larger part here.
I also never claimed to constantly being kicked from group but I have been kicked and every time it was with players that couldn't do the content and looked for any scapegoat excuse to blame anyone but themselves. Why should race be that excuse?
Even when I gave a viable alternative in which racials would still exist but weaker, you complained it wasn't lore friendly with absolutely 0 reasoning as to how it wasn't Lore Friendly. Why? BECAUSE YOU ARE GRASPING AT STRAWS!!!!
Racials had a much larger impact on previous elder scrolls games. Skrim: Nords immune to 50% damage from many enemies in the game, including Frost Dragons. Breton immune to 25% magic damage. En ESO, it's just 6%. In Morrowind Nords were 100% immune to Frost, 50% to shock, and could cast a shield on themselves, and that's not even counting the head start they have on skills.
Either you are getting kicked often enough that there's a problem needing to be addressed - getting gud - or it's a rare thing whose problem is just baddies looking for an excuse and nothing needs to be addressed. It's not both. Make up your mind which one it is.
I gave reasons why I did not like your "viable alternation," which to be clear, is not what you said before, your words were "mostly insignificant." I like races being different, I like choices that actually matter, not "mostly insignificant," and you are blowing what is a L2P issue all out of proportion, wanting to change something to lesson diversity because you're getting kicked from groupsMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »So people disagreed with you and you had to start a whole new thread and insult people in the process.
Repeating it again doesnt make your "logic" (opinion) any less flawed.
Well I disagreed in the other thread and I still disagree now. The passives are just fine.
The point of my examples, which you quoted was that for each attribute (stam or magicka) there are at least 4 races that can do well with either.
If there was such a lack of race diversity in the game because of passivies, as has been argued, we would see nothing but redguards for stam, altmer for magicka, and argonians for healers.
Look around the damn game and youll see that is not the case at all.
I have seen dunmer, argonian, Imperial and even Khajiit play both stamina and magicka characters. Argonians make great healers, but before they were buffed, who would have ever thought to see an argonian stamina tank? Ive seen it and it makes a great tank. Ive seen Khajiits play as a tank (both stam and magicka) and another one as a mag sorc as well. Those characters did just fine. That is hardly being "pigeon holed"
Some might say that the added stamina benefit of certain races may actually help a majicka character in terms of break free and dodge roll under certain circumstances with a slight loss to DPS but hardly the amount you are claiming.
The differences you call "huge" are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The differences are not really even worth worrying about unless you're an ultra min/maxer, in which case you'll probably never be happy anyway.
A better skilled player will still be a better skilled player regardless of the character's passives.
The game does not force you to do anything.
You shouldn't have to choose the "meta" race to be viable. Less for tanks/healers, but DPS matters. And in many higher level cases you are indirectly forced if you want to compete.
Define " higher level", do you mean PvP? Thats pretty high level, arguably the highest competative content in the game, so lets examine that.
If there was only one "meta" race for DPS in each attribute, we would only see that race and only that race in Cyrodill for DPS.
There are plenty of different races playing damage for both stamina and magicka out there.
@Joy_Division , iirc plays a Nord Magicka Templar. That is hardly a "meta" combo, (in fact its arguably one of the worst combos) and she does really well out in Cyrodiil and other high end content.
I would say high end PvE raiding is the closest to competitive end-game you´ll come. In order for something to be competitive you´ll need to be able to measure it. And the only way to "measure" PvP is by AP gain (which can be cheesed in so many ways. Not saying PvE stuff can´t be cheesed but much less likely to be so). There´s a standardisation in PvE that PvP can never come close to (like vAA HM will be the same for any group trying to complete it, while PvP situations will be different for every single individual), therefore PvE is more competitive than PvP.
Back to topic.......
Racials are fine as they´re. And you don´t have to choose a "meta" to be competitive (in both PvE and PvP). Some races are better than other´s on some areas and that is fine (damn even the lore supports it).
As someone who has done PVE raiding with dedicated raiders, I can most certainly tell you that it is not nearly as competitive as PvP. I have done hardmode trials on my "wrong" Nord magplar just fine and well enough to get invited back to groups I have run with. People may disagree here, but what exactly is "competitive"? If it's about successfully completing the content and enabling the group to do so, my Nord successfully met that standard and then some. If it's about a DPS parse against a target dummy, then practicing a rotation is going to get you better DPS than spending 3K on a race change token for sure. But for those, specific terms than, yes, someone who logs on every day and practices is going to be able to out-parse me. Let's be clear though, that's much more ego competition than game competition because the Nord can actually do the game part just fine.
You don't measure competition in PvP with AP. Not even close. Competition is fighting other players. An objective person can tell if they get beat or not. In PvE there is much larger room for error because once I know the predetermined mechanics of a fight, then I can beat it no matter what race I am because I can follow those mechanics and even the "wrong" race has benefits that help (Nord health bonus, for example). In PvP I can't just overcome another player's skill with the knowledge of pre-determined mechanics so racial (dis)advantages become something the other way to overcome is by player skill and experience.
People may disagree with me and that's fine. All I will say is that I can get Flawless Conqueror on my "wrong" race magplar, but if I meet an Argonian magplar in cyrodiil that is equally experience and skilled as I am, I have little chance of winning.
Getting rid of racials to solve this "problem" is about as useful as getting rid of classes, ultiamtes, abilities, etc., and everything else we must choose that makes our characters different from each other. Does the OP really want to play a FPS like game where everyone has the same stats, every spell does the same thing for the same damage, etc., all in the name of fair competition? Sorry, I can say I agree with that. The issue with races is that some of them are poor mechanically (nords especially). It is zos's responsibility to make sure people's choice in this matter does not compromise their overall performance, just as it is zos's responsibility to make sure the classes, abilities, ultimate's, etc., do the same.
I would say anything that can be measured and/or compared in a good and standardised way can be considered competitive. In PvE you can compare your group´s score to another group´s score.
I also think that for something to be considered competitive there need to be a goal involved. In PvE that goal can be being #1 on the leaderboards or be the best team on the weekly scoreboard etc....
The only thing I can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign you´re playing on.
If the only thing you can see being competitive in PvP is winning the campaign, then you have your eyes closed. How does the most basic PvP encounter, a 1v1 fight against another player, does not strike you as competitive, and game competition at that?
Or do you think not playing a game like chess against another person is competitive? Only entering a formal tournament?
Fair point I guess
PvP can absolutely be competitive, not denying that. I just think PvE is more competitive in it´s nature by being easier to compare/measure scores (aka leaderboards), each to their own I guess
I'm not sure if something is easier to compare it is more competitive. Perhaps easier to see where imbalances lie.
In PvE and PvP, both have to deal with ZoS's system of scoring, which muddles the water further. Not dying is super important in DSA, but not a big deal in vMA. Owning a enemy Elder Scroll in PvP is somehow not as important as owning Chalman Mine even though the game is called Elder Scrolls Online.
At the end of the day, I think if players felt their race was contributing something useful and tangible to their gameplay, most would be satisfied. That should be Zos's goal, first and foremost.
If race doesn't have a significant impact on your performance, I challenge you then to go make a breton stam NB and enter into this weekends legends dueling tournament. I mean in the trailer the main hero for DC is a breton NB. So why cant we play one? Hrm?
You can. You just chose not to.
You are far overstating the importance race plays. They are not hyper imbalanced, the game does not force me to choose, and that you'd even suggest I am "purposefully hurting the performance" on my team in casual content like dungeons [!] is ridiculous. It does not require a min-max build with perfected rotations to beat Wayrest Sewers.
I have been playing a Nord magicka Templar since launch so I know. The race sucks and does nothing for how I play it. I don't need to all of a sudden be "challenged." And I don't need to enter into a legends dueling tournament. I fight a lot of those players and players of that caliber on a nightly basis.
When I fight someone in PvP, what decides who wins and loses 95 times out of a 100 determined by player skill, mistakes, and matchup (i.e. what abilities did I slot, what armor is my opponent wearing, class Vs. class, etc). As I PvP just about every night, most of the times I am going to win because I am more experienced, even against opponents who strictly select their race/roles according to what you deem to be correct and forced. So if you're good, you can play a Breton NB hero and actually do heroic things. Which is how the game ought to be IMHO.
The other 5% of the time is when I come across a player as experienced as I am who is playing a class, gear, or race that is very strong in the current meta. Examples right now: stamina wardens, 7th Legion, Argonians, and then, yes, it is frustrating. But that's a balance issue that's best solved by correcting imbalances, not making what ought to be meaningful choices cosmetic and taking away the limited diversity we have as it is, just to become even more like clones and carbon copies of each other.
If your racials are doing nothing for you, Why are you defending racials so damn hard then? Like LOL whats the point of even having them if you are like "I dont care if im min maxed."
Because I still believe in diversity and choices that matter. The problem is that the race I chose stinks. Not that every race is different. If I had chosen to play an Argonian or a Redguard, I'd be tickled pink.
How you solve the situation is to buff racial - and anything else that stinks - such that we can still choose different stuff and have basically the same amount of power/effectiveness.
@Silver_Strider - I have been playing the wrong race healer using the wrong skills according to the healer "meta" for 3 years now and people keep inviting me to their groups.
In my experience, people don't start asking and criticizing your build until AFTER poor play and wipes happen. Provided you do your role effectively and efficiently, you're not going to get kicked.
Again, racials are like any other choice we make it this game, class, morph, gear, mundas, trait, ultimates, etc., if something is "bad," then the solution is to buff it so it can compete with the alternatives, not eliminate from the game.
Your experience is not shared by everyone though. I've been kicked from several groups on my Stamblade, just because I was an Argonian, sometimes even before the run even started. Last time I was kicked, it was in vRoM, we kept dying to Chudan because no one was doing the mechanics to have Chudan charge and kill the Lightning add except me but I was deemed the problem because I was a Stam Argonian. Not the Tank that was made of toilet paper and died to every tank buster, not the healer that threw out all of 2 heals with everyone else basically healing themselves at that point, it was my Stamblade that was the issue.
Buffing racials is not the answer. In fact, I think they should be flat out nerfed to all hell so that their bonuses are mostly insignificant. I'm talking things like the Gift of Magnus Passive offering 200/350/500 max magic at best. That way, it's lore friendly, there's still "uniqueness" among the races without them being too powerful, and min/maxers can still min max.
I have never been kicked from a group in over three years.
Your nerfs are not lore friendly because lorewise and by precedent, the bonuses are not mostly insignificant. Practice your DPS on a target dummy and you won't get kicked from groups
Again, your experiences do not speak for everyone.
I do a respectable 32k DPS last I checked with my Stamblade, so I don't believe that was the issue. It was simply a scapegoat excuse for bad players because they refuse to acknowledge themselves as the problem.
Lorewise, Atlmer are also weak to magic but that detail is suspiciously absent. Also, Shalidor being one of the most powerful mages, despite being a Nord, sort of underplays that racials are of any significance as well. You're grasping at straws at this point.
I'm grasping at straws?
Just because you're get kicked from groups doesn't mean the devs have to completely revamp a system that's been in every ES game. If you're constantly getting kicked from groups, then that suggests you're the common element, I don't know how that can be deduced differently
Racials have been in every Elder Scrolls game including this one from the beginning. I think the devs are on my side here. I have no need to grasp for straws.
But Racials in past ES games had little to no impact on your character and how they played whereas they play a much larger part here.
I also never claimed to constantly being kicked from group but I have been kicked and every time it was with players that couldn't do the content and looked for any scapegoat excuse to blame anyone but themselves. Why should race be that excuse?
Even when I gave a viable alternative in which racials would still exist but weaker, you complained it wasn't lore friendly with absolutely 0 reasoning as to how it wasn't Lore Friendly. Why? BECAUSE YOU ARE GRASPING AT STRAWS!!!!
Racials had a much larger impact on previous elder scrolls games. Skrim: Nords immune to 50% damage from many enemies in the game, including Frost Dragons. Breton immune to 25% magic damage. En ESO, it's just 6%. In Morrowind Nords were 100% immune to Frost, 50% to shock, and could cast a shield on themselves, and that's not even counting the head start they have on skills.
Either you are getting kicked often enough that there's a problem needing to be addressed - getting gud - or it's a rare thing whose problem is just baddies looking for an excuse and nothing needs to be addressed. It's not both. Make up your mind which one it is.
I gave reasons why I did not like your "viable alternation," which to be clear, is not what you said before, your words were "mostly insignificant." I like races being different, I like choices that actually matter, not "mostly insignificant," and you are blowing what is a L2P issue all out of proportion, wanting to change something to lesson diversity because you're getting kicked from groups
Let's also consider that the Nord racial that gave 50% damage reduction was only 60 seconds long, took an in game day before it were useable again and did NOTHING to affect how you played. The 50% frost resistance passive also had caps to them which were easily obtainable thru alternative means in game. Morrowind was also the epitome of unbalanced gameplay as you could make yourself virtually unkillable thru legit means, regardless of race. You could ignore racials entirely with no influence on how effective you were because they were fluff passives.
You can ignore them in ESO as well but at the cost of how effective your character will ultimately be. It's not a L2P issue at all, it's basic math. If I had to chose between 2 characters for a group, your Nord Magplar or a Breton Magplar, with every detail between you 2 being 100% idential (skills, gear, experience, etc.) I'm picking the Breton simply because, math wise, it's superior to your Nord. It's an extreme example but with nothing to differentiate the 2 of you, math is the only factor left to consider. To some, it won't matter and that's fine but ZOS has constantly changed Racials, nerfs or buffs, so that they weren't OP but even now, the number of people that play Altmer for a magic build seems awfully high and I doubt people are doing it for the Jaundice Skin coloring.
Being kicked for any reason that is not harassment, not pulling your own weight or being offline IS an issue. If people can't pull their own weight, by all means kick them, but when you are doing 60% of the group's DPS and are still kicked, that's a problem. I'm sure I'm not the only person on this game that was kicked for some asinine reason and it'll just continue to happen for as long as people want to remain ignorant but we shouldn't be ignoring that type of behavior just because "it's never happened to me". It's like saying we don't need better gun regulations because you've never been shot.Argonian forever0 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭All races need to be given a passive buff that shares part of an existing racial passive with the whole group. Bretons would get a group passive of 1% magicka cost reduction for example, then reduce the existing passive by 1%.
This encourages the meta optimised vet trial set up to include one of each race. It also helps those races who are playing a role that isn't BiS as they'll get buffed by the other races.
No doubt this introduces balancing concerns (10 passive group buffs could make it too easy in trials) but I'm sure things can be adjusted appropriately.0 -
Ostacia✭✭✭✭✭Icy_Waffles wrote: »All they need to do is put racial passives under birthstones, let us pick a race foe aesthetics/ preference, and then choose a birthstone for passives.
I LOVE this idea! I love Nords but I don't want to be a tank!
PC/ NA
Imagination is the real and eternal world of which this vegetable universe is but a faint shadow. -- William Blake0