the importance of relatively little effort for datamined looks transmutation

mirta000b16_ESO
mirta000b16_ESO
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FFXIV gave me free 4 sub days. Despite hating dailies with a passion and the ever progressing gear treadmill, I opened it up... And I remembered the joy of getting cosmetic items in game. SE has lowered their required level to glamour to level 15, meaning that anyone above level 15 (max level is 70), can look however they want for relatively low cost.

I am well aware that I'm comparing a P2P game with a B2P game and that look transmutation has been datamined for ESO, which is why I think that now is a great time to talk about this, before the system hits the game.

We know that just like replacing a stat, transmog will come with a currency that you will need a certain amount of to transmog an item. On top of that, there will be limited amount of looks that you can save. We also know that giving too much player freedom in this matter would make costumes less appealing and therefore bad for business.

Please consider other B2P MMOs when introducing this system. In GW2 one transmutation stone used to be the cost of explornig a single city. So what people would do, they would create a new character, spend 20 minutes exploring a city, delete it, create another, etc, until they had enough to glamour their full set (you need 5 stones), meaning, approximately 1 full costume worth of transmog = 1.5 hours.

Now to change a stat you need 50 of the new currency. You get 1 per dungeon run. This sums up to 50 dailies for one stat change. If transmog is to work like that, that will just not fly. Too much effort for me to feel happy about finding an item that looks good on me. Knowing just how big the mountain of effort in front of me would be to transmog a single cool looking item would also greatly diminish my wish to play or to attempt to find good looking items to begin with.

Full gear transmog should take a day or less to achieve, if we take into account that a day of playing is up to 10 game hours. This would mean that for casual players it will take them a week, however it would still be a reachable goal. Anything more than that and the system would just sour the mood of the ones playing with it.
  • Sixty5
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    The best way I can see transmute going is for you to need a piece of gear in the style that you want, and then that is destroyed in order to change the appearance.

    Many of the good motifs have pretty high material costs already, so price and effort wise, it should be about there.

    Would also let you do stuff like put a Maw weapon onto a crafted one for that sweet sweet glow.
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

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  • Jade1986
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    The best way I can see transmute going is for you to need a piece of gear in the style that you want, and then that is destroyed in order to change the appearance.

    Many of the good motifs have pretty high material costs already, so price and effort wise, it should be about there.

    Would also let you do stuff like put a Maw weapon onto a crafted one for that sweet sweet glow.

    Transmogs should be you just using said style material on x armor, done. Nothing fancy. You shouldnt have to waste 150 ingots to transmog each piece of gear, thats just ludicrous. You SHOULD however be a skilled crafter in order to do it. You should not be able to transmute a cp 160 piece of armor to mercenary style if you havent invested into smithing / clothing / woodworking, and you shouldnt be able to do it if you do not have the motif learned.

    This is a great chance to breathe life back into crafting. Zos.

    Do.
    Not.
    Blow.
    It.
    Edited by Jade1986 on December 11, 2017 12:56PM
  • randomkeyhits
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    transmuting for trait changes should be the cost it is, it affects game-play after all.

    transmogs should be cheap as chips, some players like to keep changing looks almost on a daily basis, seen it in other games which offer the facility. They have fun with it and it keeps them engaged with the game.

    If a purely cosmetic thing is going to be arduous then its already failed.
    EU PS4
  • mirta000b16_ESO
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    transmuting for trait changes should be the cost it is, it affects game-play after all.

    transmogs should be cheap as chips, some players like to keep changing looks almost on a daily basis, seen it in other games which offer the facility. They have fun with it and it keeps them engaged with the game.

    If a purely cosmetic thing is going to be arduous then its already failed.

    This is exactly the point of my post. Thank you for writing a more concise version :)
  • zaria
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    The best way I can see transmute going is for you to need a piece of gear in the style that you want, and then that is destroyed in order to change the appearance.

    Many of the good motifs have pretty high material costs already, so price and effort wise, it should be about there.

    Would also let you do stuff like put a Maw weapon onto a crafted one for that sweet sweet glow.

    Transmogs should be you just using said style material on x armor, done. Nothing fancy. You shouldnt have to waste 150 ingots to transmog each piece of gear, thats just ludicrous. You SHOULD however be a skilled crafter in order to do it. You should not be able to transmute a cp 160 piece of armor to mercenary style if you havent invested into smithing / clothing / woodworking, and you shouldnt be able to do it if you do not have the motif learned.

    This is a great chance to breathe life back into crafting. Zos.

    Do.
    Not.
    Blow.
    It.
    You can make it cp150 rather than cp160 gear, its just for look, benefit is that you can also use lower level gear look.
    Many of them looks better.
    Using an item as template also let you buy the template from others if crafted.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Jade1986
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    zaria wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    The best way I can see transmute going is for you to need a piece of gear in the style that you want, and then that is destroyed in order to change the appearance.

    Many of the good motifs have pretty high material costs already, so price and effort wise, it should be about there.

    Would also let you do stuff like put a Maw weapon onto a crafted one for that sweet sweet glow.

    Transmogs should be you just using said style material on x armor, done. Nothing fancy. You shouldnt have to waste 150 ingots to transmog each piece of gear, thats just ludicrous. You SHOULD however be a skilled crafter in order to do it. You should not be able to transmute a cp 160 piece of armor to mercenary style if you havent invested into smithing / clothing / woodworking, and you shouldnt be able to do it if you do not have the motif learned.

    This is a great chance to breathe life back into crafting. Zos.

    Do.
    Not.
    Blow.
    It.
    You can make it cp150 rather than cp160 gear, its just for look, benefit is that you can also use lower level gear look.
    Many of them looks better.
    Using an item as template also let you buy the template from others if crafted.

    That would not revive crafting at all. You should not be able to transmog without the points into crafting and without the motifs. Those 2 things need to happen otherwise it is once again a slap in the face of crafters.

    If youwant to transmog cp160 gear into akiviri , you should have akiviri and all the points needed to craft cp 160.
    Edited by Jade1986 on December 11, 2017 4:18PM
  • mirta000b16_ESO
    mirta000b16_ESO
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    That would not revive crafting at all. You should not be able to transmog without the points into crafting and without the motifs. Those 2 things need to happen otherwise it is once again a slap in the face of crafters.

    If youwant to transmog cp160 gear into akiviri , you should have akiviri and all the points needed to craft cp 160.

    either just having the item to use it for transmogging to that style should be enough, or crafting should get an influx of level 1 white items that are only available if you steal them.
    Edited by mirta000b16_ESO on December 11, 2017 4:33PM
  • Jade1986
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    That would not revive crafting at all. You should not be able to transmog without the points into crafting and without the motifs. Those 2 things need to happen otherwise it is once again a slap in the face of crafters.

    If youwant to transmog cp160 gear into akiviri , you should have akiviri and all the points needed to craft cp 160.

    either just having the item to use it for transmogging to that style should be enough, or crafting should get an influx of level 1 white items that are only available if you steal them.

    We are going to have to disagree there. Transmog should be implemented with crafting in mind. So crafters have incentives to craft again, so finding motifs will be important again. Just like with transmute, you have to KNOW the trait to do it, here you should have to know the style and have the skill. Imo.
  • Kyoma
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    That would not revive crafting at all. You should not be able to transmog without the points into crafting and without the motifs. Those 2 things need to happen otherwise it is once again a slap in the face of crafters.

    If youwant to transmog cp160 gear into akiviri , you should have akiviri and all the points needed to craft cp 160.

    either just having the item to use it for transmogging to that style should be enough, or crafting should get an influx of level 1 white items that are only available if you steal them.

    We are going to have to disagree there. Transmog should be implemented with crafting in mind. So crafters have incentives to craft again, so finding motifs will be important again. Just like with transmute, you have to KNOW the trait to do it, here you should have to know the style and have the skill. Imo.
    I'd say the exact opposite, let people transmog with an item that is crafted, yes, but not requiring skills beyond that. Then the real crafters can craft things for others to transmog with, with what you are saying it would mean everybody just becomes a crafter just for that.
    Will I be able to forget all the wounds that pierce my flesh?
    You and your childish justice. I'll rip it to pieces.
    Come on, it's showtime. A rain of blood like a volcano
    And now I'll blow all of you and you and you...
    All to tiny pieces. All to tiny pieces.
  • Jade1986
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    Kyoma wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    That would not revive crafting at all. You should not be able to transmog without the points into crafting and without the motifs. Those 2 things need to happen otherwise it is once again a slap in the face of crafters.

    If youwant to transmog cp160 gear into akiviri , you should have akiviri and all the points needed to craft cp 160.

    either just having the item to use it for transmogging to that style should be enough, or crafting should get an influx of level 1 white items that are only available if you steal them.

    We are going to have to disagree there. Transmog should be implemented with crafting in mind. So crafters have incentives to craft again, so finding motifs will be important again. Just like with transmute, you have to KNOW the trait to do it, here you should have to know the style and have the skill. Imo.
    I'd say the exact opposite, let people transmog with an item that is crafted, yes, but not requiring skills beyond that. Then the real crafters can craft things for others to transmog with, with what you are saying it would mean everybody just becomes a crafter just for that.

    This SHOULD make crafting important again. As it stands now almost all dropped sets overshadow crafted sets. This way people who put the time in could get rewarded for it again. It should not be available to people who didnt put the time in. The way you are saying will make crafting even MORE irrelevant. So you can either .

    A . Put the time in and transmog dropped sets to however you want.

    or

    B. Buy transmogged dropped sets from crafters, making crafting once again rellevant.
    Edited by Jade1986 on December 11, 2017 6:21PM
  • Kyoma
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    But if the transmog system won't give existing crafters a way to, well, make money then it doesn't matter how much more relevant it becomes for them. They already invested in it so making others invest in it won't help either these existing crafters in any way to offset the by-now-wasted investment as some see it.

    Edit: And pretty sure they'll make transmogged items bound.
    Edited by Kyoma on December 11, 2017 7:24PM
    Will I be able to forget all the wounds that pierce my flesh?
    You and your childish justice. I'll rip it to pieces.
    Come on, it's showtime. A rain of blood like a volcano
    And now I'll blow all of you and you and you...
    All to tiny pieces. All to tiny pieces.
  • MasterSpatula
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    If Transmog turns out to be nothing more than a simple reskinning of existing items, it will be a big, huge middle finger right in the face of those of us who really care about crafting and want it to be relevant. ZOS promised crafting would be viable. Reskinning isn't crafting.

    If the time, effort, and gold I've invested into crafting isn't respected in the system, that will be an unambiguous insult from ZOS.
    "A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle
  • magictucktuck
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    Kyoma wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    That would not revive crafting at all. You should not be able to transmog without the points into crafting and without the motifs. Those 2 things need to happen otherwise it is once again a slap in the face of crafters.

    If youwant to transmog cp160 gear into akiviri , you should have akiviri and all the points needed to craft cp 160.

    either just having the item to use it for transmogging to that style should be enough, or crafting should get an influx of level 1 white items that are only available if you steal them.

    We are going to have to disagree there. Transmog should be implemented with crafting in mind. So crafters have incentives to craft again, so finding motifs will be important again. Just like with transmute, you have to KNOW the trait to do it, here you should have to know the style and have the skill. Imo.
    I'd say the exact opposite, let people transmog with an item that is crafted, yes, but not requiring skills beyond that. Then the real crafters can craft things for others to transmog with, with what you are saying it would mean everybody just becomes a crafter just for that.

    I agree you should not need the skill but the item made with that style, and i think that would help crafters more anyways. otherwise everyone is just going to HAVE to raise there crafting skill instead of asking crafter friends or buying on traders.
    PC-NA

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    Flawless Conqueror

    https://www.magictucktuck.com for my builds and guides!
  • Fang_of_Lorkhaj
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    I think the system should be transmutation stone and motif based.

    If you have the motif. You have the style material And perhaps the cost to transmute a body piece or weapon is 5 to 10 transmute stones for example.

    In my personal opinion, if this is how it turns out. Then the market for motif pages will go up in price and will greatly benefit the eso guild trader market.

    Just my input.
  • SaRuZ
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    Lol, you poor souls. This is ZoS, you will grind for that transmorg, and you will grind some more.
  • Jade1986
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    Kyoma wrote: »
    But if the transmog system won't give existing crafters a way to, well, make money then it doesn't matter how much more relevant it becomes for them. They already invested in it so making others invest in it won't help either these existing crafters in any way to offset the by-now-wasted investment as some see it.

    Edit: And pretty sure they'll make transmogged items bound.

    People will not spend a ludicrous amount of time and money to get all motifs, just like they didnt spend a ludicrous time learning all traits for everything after transmute was released. And if they do make it bound, itll be a massive smurf you to us crafters from ZoS.

    This is literally their last chance to revive crafting, if they mess this up, they dropped the ball to the center of the earth.
    If Transmog turns out to be nothing more than a simple reskinning of existing items, it will be a big, huge middle finger right in the face of those of us who really care about crafting and want it to be relevant. ZOS promised crafting would be viable. Reskinning isn't crafting.

    If the time, effort, and gold I've invested into crafting isn't respected in the system, that will be an unambiguous insult from ZOS.

    Exactly.
    Kyoma wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    That would not revive crafting at all. You should not be able to transmog without the points into crafting and without the motifs. Those 2 things need to happen otherwise it is once again a slap in the face of crafters.

    If youwant to transmog cp160 gear into akiviri , you should have akiviri and all the points needed to craft cp 160.

    either just having the item to use it for transmogging to that style should be enough, or crafting should get an influx of level 1 white items that are only available if you steal them.

    We are going to have to disagree there. Transmog should be implemented with crafting in mind. So crafters have incentives to craft again, so finding motifs will be important again. Just like with transmute, you have to KNOW the trait to do it, here you should have to know the style and have the skill. Imo.
    I'd say the exact opposite, let people transmog with an item that is crafted, yes, but not requiring skills beyond that. Then the real crafters can craft things for others to transmog with, with what you are saying it would mean everybody just becomes a crafter just for that.

    I agree you should not need the skill but the item made with that style, and i think that would help crafters more anyways. otherwise everyone is just going to HAVE to raise there crafting skill instead of asking crafter friends or buying on traders.

    That wont help crafters at all. That will flood the market with items and prices will be at an all time low. No one , if they havent already, will spend the long, LONG , - LONG - amounts of time to learn all crafting skills, traits and styles, if they have not already.
  • Runefang
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    I don't like the idea of having to change the appearance of my actual gear, let me having an 'appearance' set.

    They can easily sell cool stuff in the store which no has stats and is for appearance only.
  • josiahva
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    Everything in this game is a grind, I honestly dont care that it takes 50 transmutation stones to change a trait on a piece of equip, because in the end, that is 50 times better than what we had before. Who cares if it takes you 4 months to achieve the look you want? It just gives you something to work towards, god knows there is little enough to do in this game anyway.
  • Onefrkncrzypope
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    Well none of this will help Crafters. Non crafted sets are the only thing that people want to change. If you want to actually revive motif importance. I would rather the crafter to be able to just craft a sellable costume. Have a preview at the guild stores and in chats and boom.
    -Immortal Redeemer-
    -Extinguisher of Flames-
    -Gryphon Heart-
    -Potato-



    If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....
  • Runefang
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    Well none of this will help Crafters. Non crafted sets are the only thing that people want to change. If you want to actually revive motif importance. I would rather the crafter to be able to just craft a sellable costume. Have a preview at the guild stores and in chats and boom.

    It has to be either:
    a) You can trade bound gear but nobody but you can wear it (so crafters can change the gear appearance) OR
    b) There is set of gear you equip just for the sake of appearance (so crafters can make it and sell it)

    I prefer B
  • Onefrkncrzypope
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    Runefang wrote: »
    Well none of this will help Crafters. Non crafted sets are the only thing that people want to change. If you want to actually revive motif importance. I would rather the crafter to be able to just craft a sellable costume. Have a preview at the guild stores and in chats and boom.

    It has to be either:
    a) You can trade bound gear but nobody but you can wear it (so crafters can change the gear appearance) OR
    b) There is set of gear you equip just for the sake of appearance (so crafters can make it and sell it)

    I prefer B

    Like a costume? Hmm brilliant
    -Immortal Redeemer-
    -Extinguisher of Flames-
    -Gryphon Heart-
    -Potato-



    If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....
  • zaria
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    zaria wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    The best way I can see transmute going is for you to need a piece of gear in the style that you want, and then that is destroyed in order to change the appearance.

    Many of the good motifs have pretty high material costs already, so price and effort wise, it should be about there.

    Would also let you do stuff like put a Maw weapon onto a crafted one for that sweet sweet glow.

    Transmogs should be you just using said style material on x armor, done. Nothing fancy. You shouldnt have to waste 150 ingots to transmog each piece of gear, thats just ludicrous. You SHOULD however be a skilled crafter in order to do it. You should not be able to transmute a cp 160 piece of armor to mercenary style if you havent invested into smithing / clothing / woodworking, and you shouldnt be able to do it if you do not have the motif learned.

    This is a great chance to breathe life back into crafting. Zos.

    Do.
    Not.
    Blow.
    It.
    You can make it cp150 rather than cp160 gear, its just for look, benefit is that you can also use lower level gear look.
    Many of them looks better.
    Using an item as template also let you buy the template from others if crafted.

    That would not revive crafting at all. You should not be able to transmog without the points into crafting and without the motifs. Those 2 things need to happen otherwise it is once again a slap in the face of crafters.

    If youwant to transmog cp160 gear into akiviri , you should have akiviri and all the points needed to craft cp 160.
    it would revitalize crafting as you can craft specific gear for others then use to transmute. Note that this would even be relevant for crafted sets if you don't know the style or have some old trusted julianos you want an cool look on.
    If you have to know the style yourself it will just inflate motif prices.
    However being able to mix weights and use lower level styles would be an major bonus. Else you can just use crafted sets for 90% of builds.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Jade1986
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    zaria wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    zaria wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    The best way I can see transmute going is for you to need a piece of gear in the style that you want, and then that is destroyed in order to change the appearance.

    Many of the good motifs have pretty high material costs already, so price and effort wise, it should be about there.

    Would also let you do stuff like put a Maw weapon onto a crafted one for that sweet sweet glow.

    Transmogs should be you just using said style material on x armor, done. Nothing fancy. You shouldnt have to waste 150 ingots to transmog each piece of gear, thats just ludicrous. You SHOULD however be a skilled crafter in order to do it. You should not be able to transmute a cp 160 piece of armor to mercenary style if you havent invested into smithing / clothing / woodworking, and you shouldnt be able to do it if you do not have the motif learned.

    This is a great chance to breathe life back into crafting. Zos.

    Do.
    Not.
    Blow.
    It.
    You can make it cp150 rather than cp160 gear, its just for look, benefit is that you can also use lower level gear look.
    Many of them looks better.
    Using an item as template also let you buy the template from others if crafted.

    That would not revive crafting at all. You should not be able to transmog without the points into crafting and without the motifs. Those 2 things need to happen otherwise it is once again a slap in the face of crafters.

    If youwant to transmog cp160 gear into akiviri , you should have akiviri and all the points needed to craft cp 160.
    it would revitalize crafting as you can craft specific gear for others then use to transmute. Note that this would even be relevant for crafted sets if you don't know the style or have some old trusted julianos you want an cool look on.
    If you have to know the style yourself it will just inflate motif prices.
    However being able to mix weights and use lower level styles would be an major bonus. Else you can just use crafted sets for 90% of builds.

    gonna have to agree to disagree. I believe you should have to put in the work to transmog, and if you dont want to put in the time, then you SHOULD have to pay a pretty penny to the people that have spent months, if not years, collecting all the motifs / styles / traits.
  • mirta000b16_ESO
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    We are going to have to disagree there. Transmog should be implemented with crafting in mind. So crafters have incentives to craft again, so finding motifs will be important again. Just like with transmute, you have to KNOW the trait to do it, here you should have to know the style and have the skill. Imo.

    That would limit transmog to JUST existing motifs and not items worn by NPCs that you can get but are otherwise white level 1 items.
    Well none of this will help Crafters. Non crafted sets are the only thing that people want to change. If you want to actually revive motif importance. I would rather the crafter to be able to just craft a sellable costume. Have a preview at the guild stores and in chats and boom.

    also this ^
  • Sibenice
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    Runefang wrote: »
    I don't like the idea of having to change the appearance of my actual gear, let me having an 'appearance' set.

    They can easily sell cool stuff in the store which no has stats and is for appearance only.

    They do this already. They're called costumes.
  • Sheezabeast
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    I don't see how they could do anything but make it a reskinned system. Its what is easy and I honestly don't anticipate anything beyond that. I don't care if the stuff is bound, it won't kill crafting for me.
    Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!
  • Jade1986
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    We are going to have to disagree there. Transmog should be implemented with crafting in mind. So crafters have incentives to craft again, so finding motifs will be important again. Just like with transmute, you have to KNOW the trait to do it, here you should have to know the style and have the skill. Imo.

    That would limit transmog to JUST existing motifs and not items worn by NPCs that you can get but are otherwise white level 1 items.
    Well none of this will help Crafters. Non crafted sets are the only thing that people want to change. If you want to actually revive motif importance. I would rather the crafter to be able to just craft a sellable costume. Have a preview at the guild stores and in chats and boom.

    also this ^

    If you have the skill to make lvl 1 gear, which everyone does, and have the style then you would be able to do it. Sorry, if you didnt put in the work, you shouldnt be able to make your gear look super fancy.
  • Dapper Dinosaur
    Dapper Dinosaur
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    With Zenimax having made transmuted items bind, I have absolutely no faith that they will do the right thing this time and allow crafters to transmogrify items for other players. Zenimax has seen fit to dig the mass grave for us crafters another foot deeper with every single update to the game since One Tamriel, and I don't foresee them ever stopping.

    Good thing Dragonball Fighterz and Soul Calibur 6 are coming in 2018!

    To those who want this system to not need crafting skills: Do you have any idea how much work us crafters put into our characters to become high-level crafters? The research? The cost of motifs? The time? The investment into a crafting hall?

    No? So shut up about wanting to have everything at your fingertips for doing exactly 0 work. If Zenimax DOES do the right thing and allow us crafters to transmogrify for other players and make some gold for our hard work for the first time in over a year, you all can just deal with it. Like I said before though, Zenimax made transmuting an item bind it, so we can't even use our trait knowledge to give us any kind of advantage in the market, so I highly doubt they'll do the right thing and allow us to have an edge in the transmogrification system, especially since it interferes with their costume revenue.
    Edited by Dapper Dinosaur on December 12, 2017 6:28PM
  • EvilAutoTech
    EvilAutoTech
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    I would like to see the "cost" for transmog be gold. Shiny, clinking gold. Enchanting and spell crafting in Oblivion cost gold even at stations you owned and spent gold to make work.

    I would like it to help crafters but even if it doesn't help crafters, I want it. I can already craft the look I want. My problem is that the pieces that look good to me are different weights and or lower tier than CP 160.
  • ThinkerOfThings
    ThinkerOfThings
    ✭✭✭
    I am excited for a Transmog system.

    Something that might work with a few folks is having a transmog stamp, which would allow you to "stamp" a piece of gear with a specific look. This would allow folks who spent that time to find those Motif's and increase their crafting skill, they could then sell those Stamps at the AH. People who want a look but don't have the required Motif's / Skill could then put these "Stamps' on their gear. As far as creating the stamp's look, it would just take the normal materials that you would use to craft an item of that type, as well as whatever materials would be needed to create the stamp itself. Since part of the MMO experience is grind, and this is a business, ZOS could create a method for creating these stamps in game which would require some farming, but also sell the blank stamps in the Crown Store, perhaps in packs. Of course, ZOS would also have to implement a method to allow folks to view a stamp from the AH before purchasing it as well, otherwise I can see that being a problem.

    Thoughts?
    "It is very, very sad being mortal. There is happiness, yes. But mostly sadness. As I have said, count only the happy hours." - Vivec
    XBOX - EP: Sen Sadri ( DE NB )
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