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Should you tell a PUG their DPS just sucks? Or just roll with it?

  • Girl_Number8
    Girl_Number8
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    radiostar wrote: »
    Just wondering if that is too cruel, or is that actually helping them out?

    Seems everyone has no problem telling the Heals they are not up to snuff, right? "Blame the Healer."

    What if DPS just can't get the job done and you're spamming heals like a fool?

    Quit, and say "It's probably me, replace me with a more powerful Heals"? Or say "We can't complete this boss because your DPS is not breaking him/her down fast enough"?

    Which is preferred etiquette?

    That would be manners. Wisdom would be also realizing that if you want to tell someone they suck, then you are the problem. If you know the game and are good at it help other players to learn it. It will make you feel all warm and cuddly inside. :)

    You're acting like the only way to inform someone they're terrible at their role is to be extremely rude. The TC literally gave an example of stating the truth as politely as the situation permits.

    No quite the contrary I was also responding to the title of the OP's post which was "Should you tell a PUG their DPS just sucks? Or just roll with it?"

    I said go with manners and not to go with you suck. Going with manners would be the opposite of being rude, smh. :|
  • Verbal_Earthworm
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    My tank joined a PUG for Random Veteran Dungeon last night and after the first boss i said to the group "DPS seems low".

    One of them agreed and one of them apologised and one of them thought we were doomed and should quit.

    I told them "We can do it, it's a matter of will", knowing that my tank would be okay at least.

    Due to the low DPS, the bosses took ages but we all persevered, got into a rhythm and completed.

    It helped that i can type/rez and tank at the same time, but communication is key.

    If the DPS seems low, say so, just like that, no need to be confrontational about it.
  • Flameheart
    Flameheart
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    krachall wrote: »
    By all means, TELL HIM! I was that guy a few months ago and being told my DPS sucks has made the game SO much better and SO much more fun for me that I want to find and thank the guy who first told me. Honestly, if that hadn't happened, I probably would have quite the game out of boredom.

    Here's exactly what happened and why I think it's so important to tell players they could significantly improve.

    I was a 100% solo player at about CP100 when I tried my first dungeon. I play a stamina nightblade and, at the time, was using my bow 80% in solo play. I struggled to kill overland groups of 3 mobs and usually had to use my ultimate (Ballista) for delve bosses. I hadn't ever checked my dps on a targeting dummy but I'd guess it was around 5k.

    I rarely used my daggers. I had shadow cloak on both bars. I didn't use any AOEs or DOTs. None.

    I loved my first dungeon and started responding to messages in guild chat looking for people for pledges. And then came the message that changed my ESO life.

    "LF DPS for vet Pledges. no Snipe spammers."

    No snipe spammers? What does that mean and what's wrong with snipe? I live for snipe! I'm a stealth archer like I was in Skyrim!

    So I asked. After some back and forth, I was directed to go look up some builds online and do some research.

    Oh my...

    80% of the skills recommended for "good" DPS weren't on my bar.
    I had NO rotation whatsoever.
    My DPS was probably 1/5th of what most would say is reasonable.

    So I changed. I changed everything. I rebuilt my nightblade, changed the majority of my skills. Changed my CPs, changed my gear, changed my style, learned to weave, learned a rotation, and practiced practiced practiced.

    And, as expected, everything improved a ton. I'm barely average, today, pulling 25k on a targeting dummy when I get everything right (22k when I spaz) and able to put up some decent numbers against vet bosses.

    But here's the key: It's NOT that I can now put out 25k DPS vs. 5k. It's that I'm now able to enjoy FAR more game content than I could as a solo player struggling to solo a delve boss. I am enjoying ESO so much more now, than I was earlier, that I'd love to find the guy who excluded "Snipe Spammers" and shake his hand.

    Tears of emotion in my eyes :-)

    Btw, if you do 25k dps on a target dummy you will be well over 30k single target dps in group content with some support/buffs (especially Warhorn and resistance debuffs from the tank) and where bosses don't demand much movement. Take that x 2 and you have a 60k+ single target dps group. In many PUGs I did as a tank, I would have had a big smile in my face, if I could have watched such a value in my combat metrix. The truth is, that I still experience groups (ok, it was much worse before, at the time of the Morrowind patch) where I don't watch even 60k group dps in trash groups with 6+ adds all piled into each other by my tank...

    Welcome in the ranks of the above average player.

    Edited by Flameheart on December 8, 2017 11:32AM
    Sometimes the prey turns and nips us... it's a small thing.

    So let the snow flakes and unicorns dance alone until they melt or vanish from existence, we will finish up with those smart enough to stay in the glowing circle of love.

    Selissi - CP 1k+ Redguard Stamina Nightblade (Ebonheart Pact)
    Silmerel - CP 1k+ Breton Magicka Templar (Ebonheart Pact)
    Sunja - CP 1k+ Dunmer Magicka Nightblade (Ebonheart Pact)
    Suldreni - CP 1k+ Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight (Ebonheart Pact)
    Sulhelka - CP 1k+ Altmer Magicka Sorcerer (Ebonheart Pact)
    Sylundine - CP 1k+ Breton Magicka Warden (Ebonheart Pact)







  • commdt
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    Depends on what do you mean by "sucks". For one of my friends everything below 40k/dummy sucks and i usually shut him up when he starts to annoy party members with 25k about their dps.
    But theres another number - 15k (10k on low lvl). It is possible in any gear without skill with a little effort (i.e. even spamming HA + Wrecking on 2H) and it is enough to do any non-DLC 4-ppl pug content. So if your party member does 5k or less he simply doesnt give a damn about you and the whole party probably considering you all morons and is making no effort at all, maybe spamming light attacks or AFKing mostly. In this case feel free to tell him who he really is.
    Rawr
  • Sygil05
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    I think constructive criticism is the way to go, with the expectation that it might be totally ignored or blow up spectacularly.
  • resdayn00
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    "Sorry, but your DPS/healing/tanking is not sufficient to complete this run IMO. If you can improve now with focusing more, or you don't understand the necessary mechanics, just say that, we'll figure something out. Otherwise, sorry, but we are stuck on this boss and I don't see this group completing it."

    You can state something without being rude. Some people need to accept that certain dungeons and trials require better performance than what they can currently produce. And you can always help each other by explaining the mechanics or helping someone understand their character better.
    PC EU - Ebonheart Pact
    Resdayn Indoril, Dunmer Magicka Nightblade - Main

    Pactum Dunmeri | Ard Feainn | Aetherius Art | Kley Guild

    Achievement points: 26k+
  • Eyesinthedrk
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    I have tried in the past to be helpful and give them tips to improve. But in my experience they usually have the wrong gear, the wrong skills and the wrong morphs. None of which can be fixed mid dungeon since they usually have an empty inventory and no skill points to spend.
  • Jpk0012
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    My son and nephew play(14 and 13). I'll be honest. They are terrible. My nephew thinks he does 10K dps on light attacks. I pointed out that meant he needed to hit for 10K on his light attacks. I guess, an overload Sorc could do that. But... he isn't. He is clueless. I make fun of him all the time. He's also the type to EXPLODE verbally when he dies... usually his fault. What can you do, man? Let the little dude do his thing. Laugh at him when he thinks the healer needs to be his babysitter, because he refuses to look at red areas.

    My son... pretty much the same thing, but he does not verbally explode. I'm not even sure he cares. Neither understand roles despite their fathers trying to teach them.

    This gave me a lot of perspective.
    1) There are a lot of people that play that do not understand the MMO concept of the holy trinity - COD, BF, GTA, BGUK do not have this concept. You enter the game... You kill people. I have watched my son play a lot of GTA and BF. He plays those very well(better than me). Its so different than an MMO. No wonder he had no idea.
    2) Some people just dgaf. My son dgaf. He loved DDO, and he should have figured out building a character is important(more important than ESO)... nope. He just wants to do silly stuff. Whatever, my dude.
    3) While my son doesn't enjoy the game over the others, my nephew does. He is what you would consider high/medium CP... that is scary. I feel sorry for people that he groups with.



  • SaRuZ
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    Proper dungeon build etiquette is to be able to DD dungeons with class specific as a back-up. Besides, anyone over 350 CP doesn't need assistance. If people actually geared and skilled up for dungeon content, there wouldn't be all this whining on forums. Trials are literally the only content you need to be 100% your role. Everything until the Final Boss on HM(VetDungeons) doesn't require four 690's 100%ing their role.

    It also comes down to players attempting content too difficult for them at too low level.
  • Jarryzzt
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    1. If the OP wants to see examples of truly, spectacularly, fantastically awful individual effort in PUGs, albeit PUG PVP, they ought to give World of Tanks a whirl, preferably on the non-NA servers for a larger player base.

    To be sure, 80%-90% of WoT players either know what they are doing, know what they are supposed to be doing, or are stably and predictably average-to-mediocre and thus not actually detrimental to the team as a whole most of the time. The rest of them, however...Leeroy Jenkins weeps in shame at their antics, let's just leave it at that.

    ...My point is that by comparison ESO PUGs (or TOR, or anything comparable) are relatively tame. On occasion one gets the odd crop of infantile idiots or simply bad players, but then the content difficulty level is, trials excepted, not such that this cannot be overcome in a majority of cases.

    2. The principle I prefer to apply to PUG play, having done a whole lot of random-team-deathmatches (and I mean a whole lot, probably well over 20k just in the WoT/WoWP/WoWS triad), is that it does not matter who does what so long as the team wins. So long as you win, it does not matter who stole whose frag, who had to carry whom, who acted like a complete moron, who has an unbelievably bad rotation and gear setup, and, where applicable, what kind of victory was scored (e.g. frags vs. capture points). A win is a win is a win. To use a sports analogy, it does not matter whether you win by a single point or by a hundred (excepting obviously tournaments or qualifiers built explicitly on goal differential).

    Obviously it makes for a lot smoother experience if everyone in the group is above-average, knows their role, knows the content, et cetera. But insofar as an ESO PUG run, so long as the boss is down and the loot collected...the rest does not really matter. That's the break point for me, which, again, given the not-very-high difficulty of a lot of PUG content in ESO means that literally 90% of the time I try to do my job and generally do not care whether the rest of the group knows what they are doing since the bosses are getting burned down anyhow. And the other 10% of the time my only concern is to make sure some boss mechanic is respected as something required to burn down said boss.

    The only exception to the above would be something like a trial, which, given the elevated difficulty level, would mean that certain DPS minimums need to be met, et cetera. To compare with the three raids in Marvel Heroes - at least they only had the three before I left - anybody could do the first one (green Musp) because it was so easy; some gearing and preparation was required for the second one (red Musp), which was rather more involved so the lead would typically inspect gear or look out for mechanics mistakes; and the third one (Onslaught) is where inspection was mandatory, people with inadequate gear would often just get kicked without any hesitation whatsoever, and some leads would literally time you on a DPS dummy before letting you in. So yes, at an ESO trial, I'd expect that sort of scrutiny. For a PUG dungeon, however, especially on normal? Tcha!

    3. Just as a potentially bubble-bursting aside. For one, a majority of people in general are "average" (i.e. if one accepts a normal distribution of particular traits in the human population, 2/3 of said population will be situated within one standard deviation from the mean). But specifically in gaming, if nothing else, WoT player stats (across a very, very large sample) show that the overwhelming majority of online gamers are bad-to-mediocre-to-average-to-slightly-above-average. The casuals, the kiddies, the working stiffs, the "I only play while drinking" crowd (that one's my personal favorite, for obvious reasons). In any MMO with a sufficiently large player base, that is the PUG environment, statistically speaking, even more so in an MMO that happens to have some complex or non-obvious mechanics (e.g. bar swapping).

    Again, my personal approach is not to care so long as I get my "win".
  • Smasherx74
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    tell them it sucks so they improve
    Master Debater
  • Morbash
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    I wouldn't go the "you suck" route. That's not helpful at all. I would take a less personal approach by telling them their dps is too low. Afterwards, offer to help them with their build and rotation.

    I was tanking BC2 last night. This healer had the nerve to tell the stamina DPS "if he ever saw them in another dungeon, he would immediately leave." Rapid regen and mystic orb was the extent of his support.

    Mind you, the dps were doing fine. We managed to complete BC2 on HM. They were extremely cooperative. If i told them to jump, they'd ask "how high."

    Point is: there really wasn't a need for his abrasive comment. He could have simply offered to help them. And they would have been more than willing to listen to his advice.
    Edited by Morbash on December 9, 2017 3:55AM
    "War doesn't build character; it reveals it."
  • Motherball
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    If you’re not there to babysit, then don’t try and babysit.
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