Should you tell a PUG their DPS just sucks? Or just roll with it?

krachall · December 2017

By all means, TELL HIM! I was that guy a few months ago and being told my DPS sucks has made the game SO much better and SO much more fun for me that I want to find and thank the guy who first told me. Honestly, if that hadn't happened, I probably would have quite the game out of boredom.

Here's exactly what happened and why I think it's so important to tell players they could significantly improve.

I was a 100% solo player at about CP100 when I tried my first dungeon. I play a stamina nightblade and, at the time, was using my bow 80% in solo play. I struggled to kill overland groups of 3 mobs and usually had to use my ultimate (Ballista) for delve bosses. I hadn't ever checked my dps on a targeting dummy but I'd guess it was around 5k.

I rarely used my daggers. I had shadow cloak on both bars. I didn't use any AOEs or DOTs. None.

I loved my first dungeon and started responding to messages in guild chat looking for people for pledges. And then came the message that changed my ESO life.

"LF DPS for vet Pledges. no Snipe spammers."

No snipe spammers? What does that mean and what's wrong with snipe? I live for snipe! I'm a stealth archer like I was in Skyrim!

So I asked. After some back and forth, I was directed to go look up some builds online and do some research.

Oh my...

80% of the skills recommended for "good" DPS weren't on my bar.
I had NO rotation whatsoever.
My DPS was probably 1/5th of what most would say is reasonable.

So I changed. I changed everything. I rebuilt my nightblade, changed the majority of my skills. Changed my CPs, changed my gear, changed my style, learned to weave, learned a rotation, and practiced practiced practiced.

And, as expected, everything improved a ton. I'm barely average, today, pulling 25k on a targeting dummy when I get everything right (22k when I spaz) and able to put up some decent numbers against vet bosses.

But here's the key: It's NOT that I can now put out 25k DPS vs. 5k. It's that I'm now able to enjoy FAR more game content than I could as a solo player struggling to solo a delve boss. I am enjoying ESO so much more now, than I was earlier, that I'd love to find the guy who excluded "Snipe Spammers" and shake his hand.

Danksta · December 2017

I usually won't say anything unless asked for advice or at least hinted that they may want advice. Though as a solid DPS I'm able to carry subpar groups through base game dungeons without many issues, so if they don't want advice it's just an extra 10 minutes of my time.

gabormezo · December 2017

Bad pug don't pug on rnd vet. I usually get a decent group by this way. Just did CoA2 with a pug on my sorc, and I believed that accidentally I got to norm, because it was faceroll, we killed Skoria in less than a minute or so, and it was a nodeath run.

Katahdin · December 2017

Depends on the situation.

Had this happen during the dungeon event. I found I was doing 20% of the damage as a healer pretty much just healing, shards and heavy attack to regen magicka. I looked at the group page and saw our 2 DPS were lowbies.

I didnt say anything, just informed my friend on TS who was the tank and jumped in more with DPS bar when I could to get the boss down.

Most of the time, if I have to say something, I just say "Sorry guys, our DPS isn't strong enough, we cant do this" after a few tries and if it's clear we can't complete it.

Wildberryjack · December 2017

I have no problem if someone gives me suggestions on improving my DPS. But, if it includes a skill I don't have in place and I don't have a skill point available at the time to put it in place, then please don't keep harping on it. I mean what am I supposed to do about it at that point? I'll always try my best but I'm not a high-end player, and many players pug dungeons just to level faster or maybe to get a certain gear set or maybe even just to get more skill points to use. If a DD is so bad they are actually holding the group back and they won't take any advice, then just kick them.

But yes, if you are a healer and the problem isn't with you but with lackluster DDs then speak up if they try to blame you.

Hurtfan · December 2017

If you let them know tactfully, I think it's fine. Don't just say they suck. Me personally, I like to hear advice from the vet players, always looking for ways to improve my toons.

Ashtaris · December 2017

One problem I see with pugs is communications. Nobody says much of anything during a dungeon run in group chat. You can’t sit there and type suggestions while everyone else is running way ahead of you. Console users have built-in voice chat, but unfortunately ZOS has not implemented it yet for us PC users. That’s why I prefer running dungeons with guildies instead of pugs. We get on our TeamSpeak server and chat about mechanics, builds, and help each other during the run.

Jade1986 · December 2017

The thing is, unless the boss has an enrage timer, dps isnt the end all problem. However, if healing or tanking is awful, your group will die .

BlanketFort · December 2017

Vet PUGs. I only heal and tank, nowadays, so if I notice the group damage is too low, I try to help by adding what little my tank or healer can dish out in extra damage. If that is enough for the group to kill things then I stay, even if it does take quite a while because hey... it can be cleared, eventually. I usually give a PUG about 1- 1.5 hours, depending on dungeon difficulty. I think that's patient enough.

If that doesn't work and a clear is bordering towards impossible or over 2 hours, then I "group damage is too low, sorry" and politely leave. I usually make it a point to say "group damage" instead of calling someone out... unless they're an arse to everyone else, then it can't be helped and a vote to kick would be more likely.

Most low dmg groups can be helped by tanks and heals contributing damage, though, if the dungeon doesn't have a harsh DPS check. I have less tolerance for groups/players that don't follow mechanics despite having been explained a thousand times.. causing wipes.

Varana · December 2017

How you say it, does matter.
If someone texts me "lol u [snip] l2p" (hasn't happened but someone was probably thinking that during the event

), well, that doesn't help anyone (except for venting, maybe).
If people have something meaningful to say, saying it is always better than staying quiet. If it's just "your DPS suck, I can't really help you but you should do something about it", phrasing it in a non-rude way will probably go a long way to avoid drama. There'll always be a-holes, sure, but many people are not. (I hope.

)
During the event, a hint or two about crucial mechanics would've been helpful now and then, I think - while I will look up how a specific dungeon works before I tackle it, memorising all of those I hadn't visited yet before the event on the random chance that I might land in one of them, was not going to happen.

[Edited to remove profanity]

LittlePinkDot · December 2017

This is why I dont bother using group finder or playing group dungeons. I dont want to be pigeon holed into any one type. Solo builds are the best. I will heal myself with blood thirst and pots, use cloak and impenetrable gear to protect myself and I will dps inbetween healing and avoiding damage. The catagories you have to choose from in group finder are stupid. Where is the "none of the above" option?
I would prefer it if everyone just took care of themselves.
If there happens to be a bunch of people outside a dungeon ready to go in then thats great, we go in and nobody cares whos what.
And veteran difficulty is just what you solo when you're cp 400 or something.

Mureel · December 2017

I do normal random dailies in NA on 4 chars with a +100xp pot on. My cp are only 490ish on NA so it’s a fast 200k. I legit don’t care what their dps is/is not - I listen to sth in the background and just roll with it. I had 220ish cp a couple months ago and I don’t grind except when I farm telvar/flip flags for AP in IC. If the farming is good I’ll do a bit...

So, I’ve done a lot LOT of normal random dailies.

Edited to add: because I know them from EU, if we do land on a tricksy normal from DLC - I will just ask: know tactic? If not, no worries I’ll tell ya as we go and if you do what I tell ya we will clear. Had a couple wipes on certain things (you can imagine) but bar one time because this clueless DD was arguing with me at every turn and I literally had to leave for the dentist, we didn't clear. He was trying to burn planar boss and not getting that holding pinion only works if dps is ok. If dps is sub-standard, you can still clear, but at least tank and healer should swap pin and keep planar in one spot, and let them handle it and any portals we don’t get.

In the end though, all I have to say is who cares? If you are on a lvl that you’re pugging randoms or you just want the xp, who cares really?

Elsonso · December 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

A good player will notice that hes underperforming and decide to get stronger.

A bad player will be convinced that hes the bestest player in the world and nothing u can say will change that.

This. It is also important to realize that the good player might not take action to fix it until after the dungeon, probably after the group has disbanded. They might even ask at the end if anyone has any comments or suggestions. Granted, we may not see people asking very often, mainly because the feedback is probably not going to be useful.

That's not true though. There're hundreds of things you can improve DURING a run, and some of them may be vital for completion in certain instances. Granted gear and rotation may not be among those but
- using food
- ressing people
- using Annulment if magicka toon
- using cc if tank
- keeping boss in place as a tank
- interrupting
- following mechanics
- etc etc

Everyone reflects on performance differently. They might be recording the run so they can go back later and look at it. My point is that people do things differently. Don't assume that someone who does not obviously improve during a run is not interested in improvement and won't work to improve.

Ohtimbar · December 2017

I just roll with the punches no matter what. More fun that way. Fake tank? Middling dps? I'll run with anybody.

mystfit · December 2017

radiostar wrote: »

Just wondering if that is too cruel, or is that actually helping them out?

Seems everyone has no problem telling the Heals they are not up to snuff, right? "Blame the Healer."

What if DPS just can't get the job done and you're spamming heals like a fool?

Quit, and say "It's probably me, replace me with a more powerful Heals"? Or say "We can't complete this boss because your DPS is not breaking him/her down fast enough"?

Which is preferred etiquette?

I'd think at least it needs mentioned one way or the other. I was in a group during the event and we ran into trouble on the first mob. One of the group said, yeah..we don't have enough dps for this...turned out half of us...me included..accidentally picked vet when we wanted normal. If they hadn't of said anything, we would have never realized and banged our heads against walls for no good reason...

mobicera · December 2017

They can't improve if they don't know they are doing poorly. Though saying you suck l2p doesn't help anyone. If I see someone obviously preforming poorly ie. no dots etc I will kindly direct them to information sources to improve. If they react like a child to constructive critism I may just leave or vote to kick. If they take it like a rational human being I will carry them for that run if I can, if I can't then after a wipe or 2 I will just say sorry not happening today and excuse myself. Though I must say the people who take it like a spoiled child far outweigh the rational human beings...

jkolb2030 · December 2017

If you follow it up with advice, I think its usually a good look for people. They can accept or decline the help.

I was running the dungeon group with a healer who was wearing a 2 piece Kraghs set in White Gold Tower... I just asked if my eyes were mistaking me, and then offered the advice of running the typical healing sets (SPC/Worm etc..)

He seemed grateful for the advice and took to it very well, and I was able to carry the group damage wise for the rest of the dungeon (it was on normal). I'd say it was a win/win.

EvilCroc · December 2017

Being an adept of passive aggressive behavior I usually just leave the dungeon. I cannot afford straight conflict.

NordSwordnBoard · December 2017

I've come across what this thread is showing to be the three ways to tell people:

A "Your DPS/heals/tanking is not enough to continue" (can be condescending or constructive if given with advice)

B "The Group does not have what it takes to continue" (instead of singling a person out, or being unable to determine who is the weakest link - and sometimes, you do get more than one)

C "Good Luck" Leaving. The inexperienced may get the message when they see competent players enter, have a go at the current impasse, and fail to carry the group through. They give a few tries, then the competent player leaves when it feels Sisyphean. When your group gets ditched multiple times, it's not them, it's the group - or parts of it.

If you get kicked or ditched once in a while, it's just the system. If you get kicked and ditched all the time, you may want to rethink what your group contribution is and how you can improve on that. This is in regards to vet only. Many people are told in various ways, but do not hear the message.

Mazbt · December 2017

I'd give a suggestion. If they are like "nah I'm good" I'm just gonna bow out.

gabormezo · December 2017

The truth is that's ZOS fault that any highish CP player cannot pull 25k. Because reaching that is freaking easy in this game, and two DD with 25k + warhorn should be enough to faceroll any 4 man dungeon. The problem is that there is nothing in this game to teach players to reach that. However there are other players to help, so if I see a lowbie DD, I take my time, and share some tips and tricks with them for sure. I'm there to play not to win.

Magdalina · December 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

A good player will notice that hes underperforming and decide to get stronger.

A bad player will be convinced that hes the bestest player in the world and nothing u can say will change that.

This. It is also important to realize that the good player might not take action to fix it until after the dungeon, probably after the group has disbanded. They might even ask at the end if anyone has any comments or suggestions. Granted, we may not see people asking very often, mainly because the feedback is probably not going to be useful.

That's not true though. There're hundreds of things you can improve DURING a run, and some of them may be vital for completion in certain instances. Granted gear and rotation may not be among those but
- using food
- ressing people
- using Annulment if magicka toon
- using cc if tank
- keeping boss in place as a tank
- interrupting
- following mechanics
- etc etc

Everyone reflects on performance differently. They might be recording the run so they can go back later and look at it. My point is that people do things differently. Don't assume that someone who does not obviously improve during a run is not interested in improvement and won't work to improve.

I won't assume that but I probably will get rather annoyed if we wipe 10 times in a row JUST because people religiously refuse to bash after being explained they have to do that. Some things are really not that hard to improve, yet, apparently...

NewBlacksmurf · December 2017

You should never be rude.

There are ways to ask or suggest that using X and or Y would help the group more in this dungeon. Do you have those and would you be willing to use those instead of A and B?

Keep in mind that some people aren't unaware, they may simply be testing or seeing what's best/worse or fun.

Voxicity wrote: »

I just carry them, but I'll complain to my wife about it like it's the end of the world

Pretty much this....or whomever is on my xbox live party chat

O_LYKOS · December 2017

Little advice can't hurt. It's how you say it. And whether or not they're too stuck up to accept it and tell you to do one lmao

coop500 · December 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Sovi3tKitsch wrote: »

I guess my advice would just be to roll with it unless you can offer constructive feedback, otherwise, it's not going to help so there's really no point.

When I first started trying to DPS vet dungeons I got kicked from vet Direfrost because my DPS was too low. I think the exact terminology used was "Kick trash tier DPS" before I was booted. Back then I thought they were being elitist jerks because nobody had ever said anything to me about my DPS before.Now I know better but I still think if they had given me a bit more to go on other than telling me I was trash I might have improved faster. I guess acknowledging that you have a problem is the first step though.

But if the DPS in question really is trash tier, are they really wrong to call it as such? I'd say not really

The best thing to do is not have trash tier dps, and you can avoid the scenario altogether. Nobody will call you garbage, if you indeed aren't

Lol no, people will find a way to insult anybody, someone will call something garbage if they want to, no matter what you do.

As for the topic at hand, i'd say there's a difference between saying 'lol you suck' and giving actual helpful feedback. The former won't help anybody, the latter may help you both.

coop500 · December 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Sovi3tKitsch wrote: »

I guess my advice would just be to roll with it unless you can offer constructive feedback, otherwise, it's not going to help so there's really no point.

When I first started trying to DPS vet dungeons I got kicked from vet Direfrost because my DPS was too low. I think the exact terminology used was "Kick trash tier DPS" before I was booted. Back then I thought they were being elitist jerks because nobody had ever said anything to me about my DPS before.Now I know better but I still think if they had given me a bit more to go on other than telling me I was trash I might have improved faster. I guess acknowledging that you have a problem is the first step though.

But if the DPS in question really is trash tier, are they really wrong to call it as such? I'd say not really

The best thing to do is not have trash tier dps, and you can avoid the scenario altogether. Nobody will call you garbage, if you indeed aren't

Lol no, people will find a way to insult anybody, someone will call something garbage if they want to, no matter what you do.

As for the topic at hand, i'd say there's a difference between saying 'lol you suck' and giving actual helpful feedback. The former won't help anybody, the latter may help you both.

Eatmyface · December 2017

As with most things, it's not what you say, but how you say it

altemriel · December 2017

if too cruel, not helping

LittlePinkDot · December 2017

I remember reading a post a couple months ago where someone was complaining about a solo player coming into someones group Molag bal run in imperial sewers and just killed Bal right away, the group which was a healer, tank, dps team were mad that the guy just took their kill. My question is, if theres a way you can build a character that can do that by itself, then why bother with the healer, tank, dps catagories?
Why doesnt everyone just make characters like that guy? And you could still group, its just that it wouldnt be mandatory to depend on anyone else to do something for you.

Sera67 · December 2017

This event brought out alot of... bad players BUT also alot of people using crafting alts and what not.

I was on my mage-ward healer. (who has cliff racer and 1 staff attack) 2 dps and tank... just could not burn down trash. I drop my heals. Flip to staff ground burn and spammed cliff racer. And took out trash mobs faster then they could.

Next batch.. rinse and repeat... not even to 1st boss, I left. I felt bad...

If I was on my Magplar... i'd have carried them. But my Mag-ward is mostly pvp... UGH.

I know my DPS on my Mage Sorc is below average. I see others show up and blow up 700k bosses in handful of seconds..
Most of my characters can solo world bosses... But in Group instances.. I don't shine. I know it. But I do better then average player. So I often feel awesome and queen of group >_>

Then someone shows up with 40k-60k dps and makes me feel like a super newb...

I'll help healers out, specially those spamming mutegon...and only that. I have little advice for dps. Outside telling them to nab few other skills to help.
I'm not one to bar swap, with several skills for max dps.. its not fun.

I think most people like advice if you catch them not use right skills in order. Or spamming wrong ones. Most people don't know sub effects of there skills.