I guess my advice would just be to roll with it unless you can offer constructive feedback, otherwise, it's not going to help so there's really no point.

When I first started trying to DPS vet dungeons I got kicked from vet Direfrost because my DPS was too low. I think the exact terminology used was "Kick trash tier DPS" before I was booted. Back then I thought they were being elitist jerks because nobody had ever said anything to me about my DPS before.Now I know better but I still think if they had given me a bit more to go on other than telling me I was trash I might have improved faster. I guess acknowledging that you have a problem is the first step though.

If normal mode keep your mouth shut and move on. If vet and its sub 15k I can think you can say something. Honestly though, unless you're gonna sit there and explain rotation (providing they have all gear and necessary skills) you can only kick and hope a better one comes through. As always, its best to join a guild if you want a certain performance level.

Sovi3tKitsch wrote: »

I guess my advice would just be to roll with it unless you can offer constructive feedback, otherwise, it's not going to help so there's really no point.

When I first started trying to DPS vet dungeons I got kicked from vet Direfrost because my DPS was too low. I think the exact terminology used was "Kick trash tier DPS" before I was booted. Back then I thought they were being elitist jerks because nobody had ever said anything to me about my DPS before.Now I know better but I still think if they had given me a bit more to go on other than telling me I was trash I might have improved faster. I guess acknowledging that you have a problem is the first step though.

Problem with productive feedback is that it takes too long if its not simply forgetting dots, that is he know how to use them but keep on spamming for half a minute afterward you can tell, if some are just LA it will take to long to explain stuff in an pug.

Its the same with other stuff, same with healers who just use mutagen twice at start then do damage if healing is needed or an tank who forget to taunt.

However if it don't cause wipes or you know it will most don't bother disusing it in pugs.

Never help ppl w/o being asked to.

A good player will notice that hes underperforming and decide to get stronger.

A bad player will be convinced that hes the bestest player in the world and nothing u can say will change that.

Noone likes to be noticed and pointed out as "underperforming" and will most likely react with a random amount of hostility.

If i end up with a grp i cant carry, i leave with sth like "sry guys, not gonna happen tonight. was a nice run still, cya.".

The answer to this is pretty easy to be honest. Put yourself in their shoes, or remember when you were new to the game - how would you prefer to be told you could improve? Straight up "lol u sux bruh l2p" Or "Hey guys we seem to be having some issues with low DPS/mechanic checks, It's okay but if you are inexperienced or new and need some help please speak up."

But yeah it depends on how much you value your time, the truth when it comes to Group Finder drama is that neither side is in the wrong. If you are new to the game or inexperienced and queuing up for randoms you are taking that risk of exposing yourself to people with short tempers, the same can be said in reverse for experienced players when it comes to low DPS/longer dungeon runs. I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt and help out if needed, but if my time is limited I will be honest and explain, apologize then leave. It is better to be a positive input to boost the player quality in the game imo.

That being said when either side gets far too toxic I find amusing, if you are that sensitive find a Guild or queue up with friends. Or just don't queue at all. Shrugs

eso_nya wrote: »

A good player will notice that hes underperforming and decide to get stronger.

A bad player will be convinced that hes the bestest player in the world and nothing u can say will change that.

This. It is also important to realize that the good player might not take action to fix it until after the dungeon, probably after the group has disbanded. They might even ask at the end if anyone has any comments or suggestions. Granted, we may not see people asking very often, mainly because the feedback is probably not going to be useful.

My dungeon tank (really PvP char) has about 10-12k DPS (while tanking). When I see that I'm doing over 40% of group DPS (still while tanking) I have to decide what will be faster to carry the group or to wait 10-15min util GT will be unlocked. (If it's DLC vet it's better to leave anyway)

If someones DPS is low.
I just tell them. Sure it's horrible to say and probably makes them feel bad but they must know the truth.
I even try and help them with a build.
being pvp or pve

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

The other day I did a vet EH II with 2, not 1, but BOTH DDs, just spam light and heavy attack. 1 of them also drop liquid lightning and I think that's all. Not even a pet as a mag Sorc. Me and the tank have to carry them thru, waste thousands gold on pots and soul gems on them. They don't rez, don't ask for mechanics, don't ask for tips to increase dps. Probably because they saw that we're still "doing ok".

I were so torn between being "elitist" and telling them they're suck, or just let it slight and maybe they thought it's ok to queue for another Vet. Finally, because we're still "doing ok" though costly, I didn't vote kick or say a word (but me and the tank did trade some secret "lol" via /tell), but deep down... I'm so sick of it.

This post exemplifies some of the problems that occur with most people who have an issue but fail to execute a solution appropriately. The fact that anyone would hesitate to begin with over discussion or be willing to engage another prior to the boiling point that causes them to explode or ragequit is beyond me. I've been gaming since the first MMOs and would never have such a hesitation or exchange or snickers regarding discussing team tactics or why the group is failing. Players are averse to being told they suck, this is true. So don't tell them they suck. Why anyone feels the need to be so abrasive with their language is the issue this all stems from. As a tank primarily for the past few decades, I too have been able to pull clutch wins out of my rear by dragging the most sorry lot of teams through the most painful of dungeon runs. I even had to basically solo a boss in RIFT when the rest of the team kept wiping to his AOE, switching to my "paladin" gear and self-healing while kiting. But as a tank, I also know where the weakness lies in a team because I can see everything going on in the battle. How much I'm getting for, how much I'm getting healed for, how quickly the boss is dropping, all indicative of who is doing what.

Through simple reasoning and constructive criticism, including identifying what actions are not working and offering suggestions immediately that could be used right away to improve strictly for this dungeon run alone so we can clear have gotten me to shape up and lead incompetent players through dungeon runs that require competency. If I see someone dying to a certain boss attack, I name them and politely inform them how to avoid the attack or what they should do when they see it. If they are oblivious during battle, I literally take the 2 seconds it requires to type their name in chat while we are fighting to notify people of the DOT or whatever it is that they need to deal with as we have planned together prior to the fight. Leadership is a powerful thing and players are more than willing to listen to good advice, not ridicule or what's commonly received as criticism.

"I think I see where the issue is. Falmore, your damage isn't quite high enough during the burst phases. I see you using your ultimate during the trash phase but I think it'll help if you save it for the burst part to wreck the boss with. Drayden, while your heals are great, you aren't noticing when people have the DoT and it's murdering them. I'm going to call out names as I see them with the DoT to help you out, be sure to cleanse them right away. Meanwhile, since our damage is low, I'm going to start kiting the mobs in a circle and switching to my personal damage aura to try and help out. It'll take a little longer but if my mental math checks out we should be fine as long as we follow these tactics."

Eek out a clutch win. Elitism has nothing to do with discussion of perceived problems. You may even be wrong, that's okay. Anyone who's spent time raiding in groups of 40 players knows that you need to iron out the bugs and identify shortcomings to succeed. This is a natural part of gaming and expected at any sort of end game level where bosses are challenging.

DearLady wrote: »

I like to start by asking if they know the fight.. I figure that's the nicest way to get some sort of an answer. They usually will say no (which is a valid reason for bad DPS sometimes... they could be good but don't know the fight etc) so in that case I'll try and help by explaining the fight. If they continue to suck I'll ask them what they're running... Usually I'll get an honest answer which answers ALL my questions. lol You'd be surprised at how many people just don't wear proper gear or have proper morphs. Then I'll recommend stuff but I unfortunately don't have time for "training" too much nowadays so I'll just apologize and leave group.

Be careful not to appear elitist when you do this.

When someone asks whether everyone knows the dungeon or the fight, that is usually the first warning that a drama-fest is about to start. I went through a couple of truly horrid dungeons in World of Warcraft with some very "special" people. When I see someone ask that question, my first thought is "uh oh". At first, they are amusing, but it gets old pretty quick. These people are pretty much the only ones I will vote to kick. Most of them end up quitting anyway.

I wonder what is with the elitist attitude, especially on normal. You can solo most vet dungeons, but some people behave totally *** if someone is not meeting their expectations in normal modes?

during the event, I was of course also running toons through the queues that are not geared, nor speced for serious PvE. When doing it with my NB (who runs 2H/Bow and has supbar pve gear) some dude asked me how long I was playing for my CP rank. well, been playing since beta I said. He replied Id be the worst NB ever (or something along the line). By the way, the same player managed to die a couple times so I even healed him every now and then with Vigor, lol. Granted my damage was not really good (maybe 10k in single target, way more in AoE thanks to my vMA bow), but more than enough for that content.

well I /ignored him switched to my stamSorc and contributed about 80% to the groups DPS there....

who cares? so called ingame "pros" are more like real-life noobs. taking a game too serious...

LordSemaj wrote: »

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

The other day I did a vet EH II with 2, not 1, but BOTH DDs, just spam light and heavy attack. 1 of them also drop liquid lightning and I think that's all. Not even a pet as a mag Sorc. Me and the tank have to carry them thru, waste thousands gold on pots and soul gems on them. They don't rez, don't ask for mechanics, don't ask for tips to increase dps. Probably because they saw that we're still "doing ok".

I were so torn between being "elitist" and telling them they're suck, or just let it slight and maybe they thought it's ok to queue for another Vet. Finally, because we're still "doing ok" though costly, I didn't vote kick or say a word (but me and the tank did trade some secret "lol" via /tell), but deep down... I'm so sick of it.

This post exemplifies some of the problems that occur with most people who have an issue but fail to execute a solution appropriately. The fact that anyone would hesitate to begin with over discussion or be willing to engage another prior to the boiling point that causes them to explode or ragequit is beyond me.

Because there are things that would take too long to explain. If the newbie already have some idea of playing their class, and just don't have the gear, or don't know the fight, I will explain the mechanic and give them some tips if I know. But when you see someone only light attack you can't teach them how to play their class within half an hour via ingame chat. If they really wanted to learn, google have so many builds for each class, all detail to "where you can find gear", the rotation... it would be faster to just carry, or leave.

Magdalina wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

A good player will notice that hes underperforming and decide to get stronger.

A bad player will be convinced that hes the bestest player in the world and nothing u can say will change that.

This. It is also important to realize that the good player might not take action to fix it until after the dungeon, probably after the group has disbanded. They might even ask at the end if anyone has any comments or suggestions. Granted, we may not see people asking very often, mainly because the feedback is probably not going to be useful.

That's not true though. There're hundreds of things you can improve DURING a run, and some of them may be vital for completion in certain instances. Granted gear and rotation may not be among those but
- using food
- ressing people
- using Annulment if magicka toon
- using cc if tank
- keeping boss in place as a tank
- interrupting
- following mechanics
- etc etc

lordrichter wrote: »

DearLady wrote: »

I like to start by asking if they know the fight.. I figure that's the nicest way to get some sort of an answer. They usually will say no (which is a valid reason for bad DPS sometimes... they could be good but don't know the fight etc) so in that case I'll try and help by explaining the fight. If they continue to suck I'll ask them what they're running... Usually I'll get an honest answer which answers ALL my questions. lol You'd be surprised at how many people just don't wear proper gear or have proper morphs. Then I'll recommend stuff but I unfortunately don't have time for "training" too much nowadays so I'll just apologize and leave group.

Be careful not to appear elitist when you do this.

When someone asks whether everyone knows the dungeon or the fight, that is usually the first warning that a drama-fest is about to start. I went through a couple of truly horrid dungeons in World of Warcraft with some very "special" people. When I see someone ask that question, my first thought is "uh oh". At first, they are amusing, but it gets old pretty quick. These people are pretty much the only ones I will vote to kick. Most of them end up quitting anyway.

That seems a weird attitude...or perhaps I'm missing something. Why would you NOT ask if someone knows the fight if the success of this fight depends on following mechanics? Granted for half the dungeons(and almost all on normal) it doesn't matter but it's almost a guarantee you will wipe on vet in fights like most dlc dungeon bosses(Planar, Kena, Warden, Xal Nur, Velidreth etc etc), possibly Praxin, Gamyne(or whatever her name is) in FG2, Valkyn Skoria and quite a few others if 3/4 don't know mechanics.

"Elitist" would be not asking, seeing team wipe because they obviously don't know the fight(s), calling them scrubs and ragequitting. Asking and trying to explain is something I'd call being helpful. Granted, more often than not no one answers, then you wipe because someone obviously doesn't know it, I explain it before next wipe and then we finally get it(maybe)

This, and yes, telling people to use food is common, same about ressing, mechanic is an obvious one, people who has never done an dungeon before don't know it and they might not know if only run in high dps groups or just eat it.
Some always die on first boss in vet vault on madness
This include cc shields blocking and interrupts

Unless it is causing us to fail to complete the dungeon I don't say anything. Even if it is the healer or tank that sucks I don't say anything. If I notice the tank or healer has situational awareness problems I slot vigor or harness magicka and go on with life... I generally do enough DPS on my own that we will get through the dungeon though.

If they ask me what they could do better I tell them, or if I notice someone has a particularly bad habit that should be corrected I might mention it, but I hate when people criticize something another player does or offer unsolicited advice so I don't do it.

It depends on their level and the dungeon. Normal doesn’t really matter.

If they’re high level 500 CP and up and have a DPS rotation of “snipe, snipe, snipe, snipe” I’ll usually mention they may need to take a look at their build/rotation.

I can usually tell what people are cranking out. I won’t comment unless it’s really bad. Like 5k target dummy equivalent.