Ice Staff for Tanking, Feedback

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

@Doctordarkspawn resistance hard cap is 33150 which is 50% mitagation. You may choose to run over that because of debuffs like the Ogres in MoL or PvP but that would be the only reason to go over.
Each 6,630 resistancs is 10% so if you only go to 27k you're only mitigating 40% instead of 50% which in get content can be 5-10k difference in how hard a bosses heavy attack hits

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

@jade1986 As little has 35k, most tanks run at 40k, with only a few specialized builds running 50k+

DeathHouseInc · December 2017

Rule of thumb in this game is if a set, skill, or play style sounds good and fun it's 99% sure to be garbage.

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

@dodgehopper_ESO everyone has AoE damage Templar Ritual of Retribution, DK talons/Harden Armor(other morph) Wardens Gripping Shards, NB Siphoning, Sorc Lighting from, anybody Wall of Elements

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

Rule of thumb in this game is if a set, skill, or play style sounds good and fun it's 99% sure to be garbage.

Rule of thumb in this game, if it's garbage, there's an error between the controller and the screen

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

josiahva wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Some frost staff tanking suggestions:

- Make frost abilities have a buff to attack speed. Basically faster animations for the heavy / medium attack and as a buff in the tri focus passive.
- reduce the taunt decay for frost staff to 5s, in line with the faster animation attacks OR
- take away the taunt mechanic from heavy attacks and slot it with elemental susceptibility or elemental Drain. This will keep the taunts away from the regular attacks, add major breach to the ice taunt (which will bring it up to the Sword and shield taunt level, not as good but better than current iteration.) and ensures the dps capabilities of frost staff is not affected.
- change the 'iceball' animation to an ice spike.

I love frost staff tanking don't get me wrong. The health shield that you receive from the heavy attack scales really well with health based tanks, and coupled with an ice warden, it's really quite viable in vet dungeons or trials but for new players, it's a bit of a doozy. Too many newbies mistook the frost heavy attack as a good way to increase dps.

With this change, all 3 elemental school can dps, while having a secondary effect (fire single target, lightning multiple target, frost attack speed). This will also add variety to the choice of gear for ice staff users. Imagine a fast heavy attack speed build with the elegance set.

The sword and shield should almost always be a primary tool for tanking but frost staff needs to at least be on par, if not close to it. Right now, inner fire is a much much better way to range taunt.

Why on earth would I waste a slot for an ability to taunt when I can do it with heavy attack . Seriously, just use your rotation, if you can call it that, taunt, use again, taunt. You dont have to wait till the boss attacks again.

This simply does not work for trash like in Falkreath, or any dungeon where the trash casts uppercut or fear. The more you grab agro the more CC heads your way, the more CC heads your way the less you can afford a full 2s animation for that heavy attack. On bosses that have adds who cast CC you either simply cannot grab agro on all the adds with frost staff alone. You either have to let the adds attack your group or use a taunting ability.

Its not that difficult, no one ever said the ice staff heavy is a replacement for inner fire, so when you need inner fire...slot it, but the ice staff heavy is perfectly sufficient for most times you need a ranged taunt.

You do understand that given “when you need inner fire” covers about 99.9% of the time unless of course you’re counting the times you don’t need a tank at all.

Chims wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I use the ice staff for tanking on my backbar stam DK tank, I choose the ice staff taunt over inner fire most time for my ranged taunt for 3 reasons:
1. Its free
2. It frees up a skill slot
3. It restores magicka while taunting(even if its an annoyingly long wind-up)

That being said, trying to use the ice staff as your main-bar tanking weapon is miserable. Even on my heals-spamming magicka warden tank, its barely adequate for non-DLC vet dungeons

I 1H/s & Ice Staff tank Vet Warrior, Vet HM/no death/speed run Cradle, Maz, Bloodroot, Faulkreach, WGT, ICP. I never. Ever taunt with the Ice Staff, I don’t even take that passive. In that high level content you simple don’t have that kind of time. The Warrior it’s for 20k through block and if you loose him, that 1.5 second heavy is enough time for him to wipe a group. Same with Bloodroot, all 3 Amalgamatios hit for 20k though block and there’s three of them, that’s 6 out of 15 seconds you’re not blocking if you’re Ice Staff HAing, that’s just not feasible.

You don't have to use the ice taunt exclusively, you have access to inner fire. I will say the more I am tanking in vet I do like the S/B not because of the taunt but because of the ability to switch and use stamina for blocking when magicka is low.

You did read what I wrote right? I’m not “getting into” Vet tanking. I’m PuGing Vet DLC content because that makes it interesting.
Switching what resource I block with is useless because I never have any magicka anyway, that’s what all my skills cost except Pierce Armor.

lol, no inner fire isn't needed 99% of the time. The ONLY time I ever slot it is when the ice staff taunt just isnt fast enough...which is limited to trials essentially, and not even all of those. I have chains to grab enemies far away(or at least aggro them on me if they are stunned). Inner Fire is only of limited usefulness with the only advantage over an ice staff heavy being speed, it is not needed 99% of the time if you backbar an ice staff, but don't believe me, I have only been tanking this game for 4 years.

4 years tanking what normals? Chains holds aggro for half a second if at all. You can't chain a Cradle Deathstriker and know it won't 1 shirt anyone for your No Death run. You aren't going to chain Bloodyhorns attros an be able to keep them in the Destro multi without a taunt or 3 casts of talons. Your not going to hold every flag mob in any vet Trials ad pull using Ice HA. And oh my Lord I'd laugh and cry to see someone try and hold AA axes using HA >_<

It sounds to me like you just choose to waste your Healers resources instead of your own

idk · December 2017

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I would like better animations... why does frost and flame heavy attack look almost the same. Also why does it always go into a straight line. I mean sure it has to hit the target but make it look better . @ZOS_RichLambert my complaint .

Now if I was attempting a pure frost staff tank this what I would "try"

Undaunted Bastion Set

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Physical Resistance

(4 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you taunt an enemy while you are under 60% Health, gain a damage shield that absorbs 13760 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Whitestrake's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery

(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

So the weakness off ice tanks is speed of the taunt, so if I was to "try" such a thing then I would capitalize on slowing enemies down. Maybe use destructive touch, caltrops and wall of elements.

I kinda like this idea

Penetrating Magic - I would like to see this also apply Minor Maim to the primary target hit by your Ice Staff Light Attacks. Rank 1 lasts 3 seconds, Rank 2 lasts 6 seconds.

This makes sense though how that would work in pvp...I really can't say.

Considering tanks do not stack resistance for the most challenging content I do not see the need for the sets described for a frost tank.

As for the animations. Both fire and frost are projectiles and lightning and rstaff are channels. Very little room for something different.

The idea of taking a lame restrofit to create a magicka tanking weapon will merely lead to still having a lame magicka tanking weapon. A new style weapon designed from the ground up is required to get something that actually works in an acceptable manner. At that, it should not work the same as a S&B since that would be even more absurd. If it works like S&B then one might as well use that line.

@idk Clearly you don’t tank. If your resistance isn’t 33150 on both you’re failing. That being said, neither Whitestricks or Bastion are particularly good sets at end game level. Most tanks use the Monster Set to cap out, Bloodspawn being BiS.

Background: tanked Vet HRC, AA, SO, all three 4man skins all on a Warden tank with 1H/S & Ice Staff

@Maura_Neysa

Wow and lol at the same time.

I have tanked vHRC, vAA and vSO, all in HM numerous times without breaking a sweat and without equping one piece of gear that added to my resistance.

vHRC HM Warrior probably does the most damage to the tank and I have MTed that fight without adding any set bonus that added resistance. BTW, when I say I tanked it I do man successfully tanked it.

Have you tanked vHRC HM?

Most serious, and semi serious, trial tanks wear sets like Torugs, Ebon, Alkosh and such. If they need a little extra health for something like vHoF or vAS they will toss in something like Plague. If they want some more sustain from Magicka they will toss in Dragon guard and get a cheaper ultimate as well. Basically, they wear sets that help the group since they can do just fine wearing them.

BTW, my fully self buffed resistance is well below the 33k you suggest. I do not know of a tank in trials that pushes 33k on their character stat sheet. I have not even heard of anyone trying to reach the armor cap in almost 2 years.

EDIT: and seeing one of your posts here, Inner fire is always good to have on the back bar. For some trials it is required (with the exception that someone could use the ice staff taunt but probably not often used). Also, vSO for the OT to grab the adds. I seriously doubt anyone walks up to them. Helps in vAA HM Foundation atro to grab the adds as well.

and

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@jade1986 As little has 35k, most tanks run at 40k, with only a few specialized builds running 50k+

This statement is false, at least speaking of experienced PvE tanks. Probably true for PvP.

Jade1986 · December 2017

idk wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I would like better animations... why does frost and flame heavy attack look almost the same. Also why does it always go into a straight line. I mean sure it has to hit the target but make it look better . @ZOS_RichLambert my complaint .

Now if I was attempting a pure frost staff tank this what I would "try"

Undaunted Bastion Set

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Physical Resistance

(4 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you taunt an enemy while you are under 60% Health, gain a damage shield that absorbs 13760 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Whitestrake's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery

(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

So the weakness off ice tanks is speed of the taunt, so if I was to "try" such a thing then I would capitalize on slowing enemies down. Maybe use destructive touch, caltrops and wall of elements.

I kinda like this idea

Penetrating Magic - I would like to see this also apply Minor Maim to the primary target hit by your Ice Staff Light Attacks. Rank 1 lasts 3 seconds, Rank 2 lasts 6 seconds.

This makes sense though how that would work in pvp...I really can't say.

Considering tanks do not stack resistance for the most challenging content I do not see the need for the sets described for a frost tank.

As for the animations. Both fire and frost are projectiles and lightning and rstaff are channels. Very little room for something different.

The idea of taking a lame restrofit to create a magicka tanking weapon will merely lead to still having a lame magicka tanking weapon. A new style weapon designed from the ground up is required to get something that actually works in an acceptable manner. At that, it should not work the same as a S&B since that would be even more absurd. If it works like S&B then one might as well use that line.

@idk Clearly you don’t tank. If your resistance isn’t 33150 on both you’re failing. That being said, neither Whitestricks or Bastion are particularly good sets at end game level. Most tanks use the Monster Set to cap out, Bloodspawn being BiS.

Background: tanked Vet HRC, AA, SO, all three 4man skins all on a Warden tank with 1H/S & Ice Staff

@Maura_Neysa

Wow and lol at the same time.

I have tanked vHRC, vAA and vSO, all in HM numerous times without breaking a sweat and without equping one piece of gear that added to my resistance.

vHRC HM Warrior probably does the most damage to the tank and I have MTed that fight without adding any set bonus that added resistance. BTW, when I say I tanked it I do man successfully tanked it.

Have you tanked vHRC HM?

Most serious, and semi serious, trial tanks wear sets like Torugs, Ebon, Alkosh and such. If they need a little extra health for something like vHoF or vAS they will toss in something like Plague. If they want some more sustain from Magicka they will toss in Dragon guard and get a cheaper ultimate as well. Basically, they wear sets that help the group since they can do just fine wearing them.

BTW, my fully self buffed resistance is well below the 33k you suggest. I do not know of a tank in trials that pushes 33k on their character stat sheet. I have not even heard of anyone trying to reach the armor cap in almost 2 years.

EDIT: and seeing one of your posts here, Inner fire is always good to have on the back bar. For some trials it is required (with the exception that someone could use the ice staff taunt but probably not often used). Also, vSO for the OT to grab the adds. I seriously doubt anyone walks up to them. Helps in vAA HM Foundation atro to grab the adds as well.

and

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@jade1986 As little has 35k, most tanks run at 40k, with only a few specialized builds running 50k+

This statement is false, at least speaking of experienced PvE tanks. Probably true for PvP.

So around 40'for pve?

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

@idk
- Yes I have tanked vHRC HM, though no completions on any other HMs.

- If you run Ebon, Alkosh, and Bloodspawn (All Sturdy or Sturdy\Infused) on a DK how are you NOT at Resistance cap? (6k Under if you go Health Monster) On my Warden it takes 7 points in Spell and 11 in Heavy to hit cap, but then I'm not spending any points in Bastion like a DK most likely would. BTW Torug's 3 piece IS Spell Resistance.
- Oh and Alkosh build (For what ever its worth) Is Spell 37.2k/Physical 33.2k resistance. 37k health
- Woeler's build Spell 32.5k/Physical 24.3k Resistance 40k health
- Though I don't think much of either of there Warden tank builds

- I can run Alkosh/Desert Rose/Sanctuary on my weapons and Ebon/Plague/Wyrd on the body. Desert for a Warden is much better for sustain than Dragon Guard, (No Battle Roar) Plague and Desert would be my selfish set up, AA Axes, SO HM Off tank (Didn't list this because the group failed, I was good to go)

- I always slot both Pierce Armor and Inner Fire. All earlier comments were about Inner Fire vs Ice HA. Which I'm calling useless, I don't even take the Tri Focus passive, because I want my block to stay stamina.

- If not those health numbers then what? I run at 35k Health in Ebon, 37.5k in Plague (Pre Minor Toughness, which Wardens have 100% time on) 40k In Plague with Minor Toughness. I say those numbers because in PuG people get huffy with any less than 35k, and if you're 45k+ It seems like you'd have no stamina, but then I've never run a build like that. As far as I know, that's getting into Blazing Shield Tank territory, which is PvP setup.

If you've tanked the content you say you have then I have little doubt you are comfortable with your build. So far though, you've said enough .... things that you should know the answer to, even if you don't use them, to make me not inclined to take advice from you

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

@Jade1986 Thats what I would shoot for (35-40k, especially if you're new to tanking) , apparently @idk has different advice though I'm not clear on what it was.

This is my tank build, it is a Warden and I back bar an Ice Staff, neither of those are whats considered Best in Slot, but I've yet to find something I can't do with this tank

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=20452

Jade1986 · December 2017

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Jade1986 Thats what I would shoot for (35-40k, especially if you're new to tanking) , apparently @idk has different advice though I'm not clear on what it was.

This is my tank build, it is a Warden and I back bar an Ice Staff, neither of those are whats considered Best in Slot, but I've yet to find something I can't do with this tank

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=20452

XD that is pretty much the same build I am running except i use frost staff for both slots and have a focus on magicka instead of stam. ^-^ My spell damage WILL BE ( not 50 yet with her ) approx 3k , other than that everything is about the same. That and my magicka health recovery is 1100 ( orc )

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

@Jade1986 if you block on magicka I suggest looking into a Set called Desert Rose, it’s 5 piece is 15% chance to resort 2.4k magicka when you take damage. This will happen even while blocking. I’m currently playing with a Boser Nightblade tank running all stamina skills. Not fully leveled yet though.

Vampire Warden is very powerful too, Undeath and Major Mending proving together automatically.

Jade1986 · December 2017

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Jade1986 if you block on magicka I suggest looking into a Set called Desert Rose, it’s 5 piece is 15% chance to resort 2.4k magicka when you take damage. This will happen even while blocking. I’m currently playing with a Boser Nightblade tank running all stamina skills. Not fully leveled yet though.

Vampire Warden is very powerful too, Undeath and Major Mending proving together automatically.

I really dont have problem with magicka management tbh. Get almost half my bar back from heavy attacking =P Thnx for the advice tho ^^

idk · December 2017

Jade1986 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I would like better animations... why does frost and flame heavy attack look almost the same. Also why does it always go into a straight line. I mean sure it has to hit the target but make it look better . @ZOS_RichLambert my complaint .

Now if I was attempting a pure frost staff tank this what I would "try"

Undaunted Bastion Set

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Physical Resistance

(4 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you taunt an enemy while you are under 60% Health, gain a damage shield that absorbs 13760 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Whitestrake's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery

(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

So the weakness off ice tanks is speed of the taunt, so if I was to "try" such a thing then I would capitalize on slowing enemies down. Maybe use destructive touch, caltrops and wall of elements.

I kinda like this idea

Penetrating Magic - I would like to see this also apply Minor Maim to the primary target hit by your Ice Staff Light Attacks. Rank 1 lasts 3 seconds, Rank 2 lasts 6 seconds.

This makes sense though how that would work in pvp...I really can't say.

Considering tanks do not stack resistance for the most challenging content I do not see the need for the sets described for a frost tank.

As for the animations. Both fire and frost are projectiles and lightning and rstaff are channels. Very little room for something different.

The idea of taking a lame restrofit to create a magicka tanking weapon will merely lead to still having a lame magicka tanking weapon. A new style weapon designed from the ground up is required to get something that actually works in an acceptable manner. At that, it should not work the same as a S&B since that would be even more absurd. If it works like S&B then one might as well use that line.

@idk Clearly you don’t tank. If your resistance isn’t 33150 on both you’re failing. That being said, neither Whitestricks or Bastion are particularly good sets at end game level. Most tanks use the Monster Set to cap out, Bloodspawn being BiS.

Background: tanked Vet HRC, AA, SO, all three 4man skins all on a Warden tank with 1H/S & Ice Staff

@Maura_Neysa

Wow and lol at the same time.

I have tanked vHRC, vAA and vSO, all in HM numerous times without breaking a sweat and without equping one piece of gear that added to my resistance.

vHRC HM Warrior probably does the most damage to the tank and I have MTed that fight without adding any set bonus that added resistance. BTW, when I say I tanked it I do man successfully tanked it.

Have you tanked vHRC HM?

Most serious, and semi serious, trial tanks wear sets like Torugs, Ebon, Alkosh and such. If they need a little extra health for something like vHoF or vAS they will toss in something like Plague. If they want some more sustain from Magicka they will toss in Dragon guard and get a cheaper ultimate as well. Basically, they wear sets that help the group since they can do just fine wearing them.

BTW, my fully self buffed resistance is well below the 33k you suggest. I do not know of a tank in trials that pushes 33k on their character stat sheet. I have not even heard of anyone trying to reach the armor cap in almost 2 years.

EDIT: and seeing one of your posts here, Inner fire is always good to have on the back bar. For some trials it is required (with the exception that someone could use the ice staff taunt but probably not often used). Also, vSO for the OT to grab the adds. I seriously doubt anyone walks up to them. Helps in vAA HM Foundation atro to grab the adds as well.

and

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@jade1986 As little has 35k, most tanks run at 40k, with only a few specialized builds running 50k+

This statement is false, at least speaking of experienced PvE tanks. Probably true for PvP.

So around 40'for pve?

@Jade1986 oh heavens no. Way overkill. 33k is even overkill.

I offer you some links from @Woeler . I would not suggest his site as the bible, but it is well headed since he is one of the most experienced tanks across all 6 servers with multiple world first HM clears, vHoF world record score and I think vMoL as well.

His beginner tank build is all crafted sets. They do offer some resistance which may be to help the beginner but being crafted is probably the biggest reason for them.

https://woeler.eu/apprentice/

His build for more experienced tanks has no added resistance from set bonus and he would not be near the 33k armor cap.

https://woeler.eu/shredder/

He has a similar build for Wardens and again, no added resistance from set bonus.

https://woeler.eu/shredder/

The 5 PC sets in there are pretty much standard with some other sets a well depending on the fight. With the exception of running Lord Warden (mostly for the benefit of melee) and rare use of Bloodspawn I do not have any added resistance in my sets bonus.

idk · December 2017

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@idk
- Yes I have tanked vHRC HM, though no completions on any other HMs

Confirms what I had suspected before and grats on your HRC HM clear.

Hey, if you want to gear for the armor cap, great, but it is not considered ideal. I suggest you look at the links from my post above this one. The site has some good information for tanks from beginner to more advanced. Yes, he has a beginner build which adds resistance since the sets are easier to come by and a newer tank might benefit from some additional resistance, but certainly not over 33k since that is a waste without doubt.

The gist, most tanks today from more moderate to competitive groups sacrifice that resistance to increase the groups damage and survivability. Increased group damage means shorter fights, less damage taken by the group and fewer mechanics to deal with. It has been proven to work well and tanks have ben just fine.

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2017

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO everyone has AoE damage Templar Ritual of Retribution, DK talons/Harden Armor(other morph) Wardens Gripping Shards, NB Siphoning, Sorc Lighting from, anybody Wall of Elements

Okay - and I'm telling you what the guy said. His words were twisted to say an AoE taunt and that is not what he said. I felt the correction was necessary purely for the sake of understanding. I have no opinion either way.

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Jade1986 if you block on magicka I suggest looking into a Set called Desert Rose, it’s 5 piece is 15% chance to resort 2.4k magicka when you take damage. This will happen even while blocking. I’m currently playing with a Boser Nightblade tank running all stamina skills. Not fully leveled yet though.

idk wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I would like better animations... why does frost and flame heavy attack look almost the same. Also why does it always go into a straight line. I mean sure it has to hit the target but make it look better . @ZOS_RichLambert my complaint .

Now if I was attempting a pure frost staff tank this what I would "try"

Undaunted Bastion Set

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Physical Resistance

(4 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you taunt an enemy while you are under 60% Health, gain a damage shield that absorbs 13760 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Whitestrake's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery

(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

So the weakness off ice tanks is speed of the taunt, so if I was to "try" such a thing then I would capitalize on slowing enemies down. Maybe use destructive touch, caltrops and wall of elements.

I kinda like this idea

Penetrating Magic - I would like to see this also apply Minor Maim to the primary target hit by your Ice Staff Light Attacks. Rank 1 lasts 3 seconds, Rank 2 lasts 6 seconds.

This makes sense though how that would work in pvp...I really can't say.

Considering tanks do not stack resistance for the most challenging content I do not see the need for the sets described for a frost tank.

As for the animations. Both fire and frost are projectiles and lightning and rstaff are channels. Very little room for something different.

The idea of taking a lame restrofit to create a magicka tanking weapon will merely lead to still having a lame magicka tanking weapon. A new style weapon designed from the ground up is required to get something that actually works in an acceptable manner. At that, it should not work the same as a S&B since that would be even more absurd. If it works like S&B then one might as well use that line.

@idk Clearly you don’t tank. If your resistance isn’t 33150 on both you’re failing. That being said, neither Whitestricks or Bastion are particularly good sets at end game level. Most tanks use the Monster Set to cap out, Bloodspawn being BiS.

Background: tanked Vet HRC, AA, SO, all three 4man skins all on a Warden tank with 1H/S & Ice Staff

@Maura_Neysa

Wow and lol at the same time.

I have tanked vHRC, vAA and vSO, all in HM numerous times without breaking a sweat and without equping one piece of gear that added to my resistance.

vHRC HM Warrior probably does the most damage to the tank and I have MTed that fight without adding any set bonus that added resistance. BTW, when I say I tanked it I do man successfully tanked it.

Have you tanked vHRC HM?

Most serious, and semi serious, trial tanks wear sets like Torugs, Ebon, Alkosh and such. If they need a little extra health for something like vHoF or vAS they will toss in something like Plague. If they want some more sustain from Magicka they will toss in Dragon guard and get a cheaper ultimate as well. Basically, they wear sets that help the group since they can do just fine wearing them.

BTW, my fully self buffed resistance is well below the 33k you suggest. I do not know of a tank in trials that pushes 33k on their character stat sheet. I have not even heard of anyone trying to reach the armor cap in almost 2 years.

EDIT: and seeing one of your posts here, Inner fire is always good to have on the back bar. For some trials it is required (with the exception that someone could use the ice staff taunt but probably not often used). Also, vSO for the OT to grab the adds. I seriously doubt anyone walks up to them. Helps in vAA HM Foundation atro to grab the adds as well.

and

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@jade1986 As little has 35k, most tanks run at 40k, with only a few specialized builds running 50k+

This statement is false, at least speaking of experienced PvE tanks. Probably true for PvP.

So around 40'for pve?

@Jade1986 oh heavens no. Way overkill. 33k is even overkill.

I offer you some links from @Woeler . I would not suggest his site as the bible, but it is well headed since he is one of the most experienced tanks across all 6 servers with multiple world first HM clears, vHoF world record score and I think vMoL as well.

His beginner tank build is all crafted sets. They do offer some resistance which may be to help the beginner but being crafted is probably the biggest reason for them.

https://woeler.eu/apprentice/

His build for more experienced tanks has no added resistance from set bonus and he would not be near the 33k armor cap.

https://woeler.eu/shredder/

He has a similar build for Wardens and again, no added resistance from set bonus.

https://woeler.eu/shredder/

The 5 PC sets in there are pretty much standard with some other sets a well depending on the fight. With the exception of running Lord Warden (mostly for the benefit of melee) and rare use of Bloodspawn I do not have any added resistance in my sets bonus.

@idk omg again you don’t read. Woeloers Shedder Main tank build, the 1 you just linked - Spell 32.5k/Physical 24.3k Resistance 40k health. So just stop, clearly you don’t do your research. That’s in the BiS armor he list on that sight as of 6am EST (Dragon Gaurd and Torugs) (old BiS of Ebon/Alkosh/Bloodspawn would cap on both)

You do realize @Jade1986 asked about health not resistances?

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

@idk @Jade1986
Let me go into reason so people can make there own educated choices
- 6k resistances is equal to 10% damage reduction, with the cap being 50% (aka 33150)
- CP you want to spend 40+ points in Elemetal Defender (10% magicka damage reduction,) Hardy (10% Physical Damage Reduction,) Thick Skin (15% DoT Damage Reduction,) Iron Clad (15% Direct Damage Reduction)
- personally I also take Expert Defender (20% light/heavy attack damage reduction) Vet AA Axes, the Warriors x4 shield bash are both HA and I’m a Warden so Bastion is a waste anyway.

Yes Tanks run armor for the group. Because we can hit all our selfish goals through other means.
- Ebon - group health, Alkosh - enemy debuff, Torugs - higher crusher enchantment uptime, Dragon Gaurd - more War Horns, Bloodspawn - more War Horns, Lord Warden - group restances.

Why it is that @idk thinks a tank would spend all their red tree in reducing damage done, but not take all of The Most Effective damage reduction, I can’t say.

What I do know is a dead tank is no help to the group. So if you have good survivablity then go ahead and skip some. Argonion and Imperal aren’t BiS races for there group contribution though, they are BiS for survivablity.

Woeler is one of the best tanks in the game and I’ve pulled a lot of what I know from his website. IMO he suffers DK bias, so I don’t think nearly as much of his Warden build. Though at least he now actually uses the Nature’s Gift passive and it’s no longer a copy past DK build.

The other big piece that hasn’t been discussed is Block cost reduction 20% from sturdy, up to 25% from CP, and up to 609 from Shield play enchantments. Definitely go for Block Cost of under 500. I’ve heard it can get below 100. The important part is to get it low enough to be ble to sustain your stamina. Running out of stamina is death. Hopefully this helps everyone make there own effective tank.

“Plying Best In Class well is... meh, playing something unique at the level of Best in Class... that’s impressive.”

TankHealz2015 · December 2017

THIS:

josiahva wrote: »

I use the ice staff for tanking on my backbar stam DK tank, I choose the ice staff taunt over inner fire most time for my ranged taunt for 3 reasons:
1. Its free
2. It frees up a skill slot
3. It restores magicka while taunting(even if its an annoyingly long wind-up)

That being said, trying to use the ice staff as your main-bar tanking weapon is miserable. Even on my heals-spamming magicka warden tank, its barely adequate for non-DLC vet dungeons

I'm a stam DK Tank too and I've started to use lightening staff on back bar in order to help group DPS and clear stuff faster.

Note: learned this from watching really good groups on you-tube clear vet Bloodroot Forge HM -- i linked the video under dungeons section

And I was thinking to switch to Ice staff for the reasons you just listed. Plus - 4. applies minor maim

I'm not good enough to use a staff back bar on the vet DLC HM dungeons yet... but there are tanks doing it and it's amazing to watch.

Maybe this is not the best option for all people, for all ESO content, but it certainly seems to be a viable option at times.

I believe more options is better.

idk · December 2017

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Jade1986 if you block on magicka I suggest looking into a Set called Desert Rose, it’s 5 piece is 15% chance to resort 2.4k magicka when you take damage. This will happen even while blocking. I’m currently playing with a Boser Nightblade tank running all stamina skills. Not fully leveled yet though.

idk wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I would like better animations... why does frost and flame heavy attack look almost the same. Also why does it always go into a straight line. I mean sure it has to hit the target but make it look better . @ZOS_RichLambert my complaint .

Now if I was attempting a pure frost staff tank this what I would "try"

Undaunted Bastion Set

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Physical Resistance

(4 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you taunt an enemy while you are under 60% Health, gain a damage shield that absorbs 13760 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Whitestrake's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery

(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

So the weakness off ice tanks is speed of the taunt, so if I was to "try" such a thing then I would capitalize on slowing enemies down. Maybe use destructive touch, caltrops and wall of elements.

I kinda like this idea

Penetrating Magic - I would like to see this also apply Minor Maim to the primary target hit by your Ice Staff Light Attacks. Rank 1 lasts 3 seconds, Rank 2 lasts 6 seconds.

This makes sense though how that would work in pvp...I really can't say.

Considering tanks do not stack resistance for the most challenging content I do not see the need for the sets described for a frost tank.

As for the animations. Both fire and frost are projectiles and lightning and rstaff are channels. Very little room for something different.

The idea of taking a lame restrofit to create a magicka tanking weapon will merely lead to still having a lame magicka tanking weapon. A new style weapon designed from the ground up is required to get something that actually works in an acceptable manner. At that, it should not work the same as a S&B since that would be even more absurd. If it works like S&B then one might as well use that line.

@idk Clearly you don’t tank. If your resistance isn’t 33150 on both you’re failing. That being said, neither Whitestricks or Bastion are particularly good sets at end game level. Most tanks use the Monster Set to cap out, Bloodspawn being BiS.

Background: tanked Vet HRC, AA, SO, all three 4man skins all on a Warden tank with 1H/S & Ice Staff

@Maura_Neysa

Wow and lol at the same time.

I have tanked vHRC, vAA and vSO, all in HM numerous times without breaking a sweat and without equping one piece of gear that added to my resistance.

vHRC HM Warrior probably does the most damage to the tank and I have MTed that fight without adding any set bonus that added resistance. BTW, when I say I tanked it I do man successfully tanked it.

Have you tanked vHRC HM?

Most serious, and semi serious, trial tanks wear sets like Torugs, Ebon, Alkosh and such. If they need a little extra health for something like vHoF or vAS they will toss in something like Plague. If they want some more sustain from Magicka they will toss in Dragon guard and get a cheaper ultimate as well. Basically, they wear sets that help the group since they can do just fine wearing them.

BTW, my fully self buffed resistance is well below the 33k you suggest. I do not know of a tank in trials that pushes 33k on their character stat sheet. I have not even heard of anyone trying to reach the armor cap in almost 2 years.

EDIT: and seeing one of your posts here, Inner fire is always good to have on the back bar. For some trials it is required (with the exception that someone could use the ice staff taunt but probably not often used). Also, vSO for the OT to grab the adds. I seriously doubt anyone walks up to them. Helps in vAA HM Foundation atro to grab the adds as well.

and

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@jade1986 As little has 35k, most tanks run at 40k, with only a few specialized builds running 50k+

This statement is false, at least speaking of experienced PvE tanks. Probably true for PvP.

So around 40'for pve?

@Jade1986 oh heavens no. Way overkill. 33k is even overkill.

I offer you some links from @Woeler . I would not suggest his site as the bible, but it is well headed since he is one of the most experienced tanks across all 6 servers with multiple world first HM clears, vHoF world record score and I think vMoL as well.

His beginner tank build is all crafted sets. They do offer some resistance which may be to help the beginner but being crafted is probably the biggest reason for them.

https://woeler.eu/apprentice/

His build for more experienced tanks has no added resistance from set bonus and he would not be near the 33k armor cap.

https://woeler.eu/shredder/

He has a similar build for Wardens and again, no added resistance from set bonus.

https://woeler.eu/shredder/

The 5 PC sets in there are pretty much standard with some other sets a well depending on the fight. With the exception of running Lord Warden (mostly for the benefit of melee) and rare use of Bloodspawn I do not have any added resistance in my sets bonus.

@idk omg again you don’t read. Woeloers Shedder Main tank build, the 1 you just linked - Spell 32.5k/Physical 24.3k Resistance 40k health. So just stop, clearly you don’t do your research. That’s in the BiS armor he list on that sight as of 6am EST (Dragon Gaurd and Torugs) (old BiS of Ebon/Alkosh/Bloodspawn would cap on both)

You do realize @Jade1986 asked about health not resistances?

You do realize you have been speaking of the resistance cap in many posts you have made here.

Currently only due to Torugs being fixed does an experienced tank come near 33k spell resistance and that is when using Lord Warden, ofc without the protection proc.

Woeler is not gearing for the resistance cap. Doubtful it is on his mind. Before HotR fix for Torug's and the changes to weapon traits his build did not add any resistance from set bonuses. It just happened to which I think may be leading to your confusion on the focus on tank builds.

It just happens with Torug's Pact they can hit the spell resistance if wearing Lord Warden but they are wearing for the benefit to the group, not for their own resistance and I think that might be what is throwing you off.

Also, I do not see where the Shredder build is hitting 32k spell resist with the gear he has listed. You may be adding in the armor buff from Bloodspawn which is not in his build nor should it be considered due to the high RNG. Blood Spawn armor buff cannot be counted on since it has such a low proc chance. With Lord Warden it comes very close with it's 1pc but is mostly worn as a set to help melee in the group.

I hope this clears things up for you.

EDIT: I did not comment on your last post made due to incorrect information.

40 points into Ele Defender and Hardy wastes some points. It puts you between two jump points. The 9.63 it states ends up being 9%. It rounds down until you get to the next whole number. Without going into detail I will provide a link to a thread from the Morrowind changes I believe still provides the accurate jump points.

Yes, there are tanks that do run selfish builds as you mention, but most experienced tanks running with decent groups run selfless builds. Selfless builds that help the group succeed is what is theorycrafted and considered BiS.

Woeler · December 2017

Boy my inbox is getting spammed with this thread.

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

Woeler wrote: »

Boy my inbox is getting spammed with this thread.

@Woeler Lol care to set us all straight?
Target resistance and target resources for vet Trials tank?

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

@idk should I bother saying it again?

- Alkosh build Is Spell 37.2k/Physical 33.2k resistance. 37k health
- Woeler's build Spell 32.5k/Physical 24.3k Resistance 40k health
- Both of them put CP in Spell Resistance

Can’t speak for what’s in there minds, but why spend the CP if it’s “not on your mind”

Woeler · December 2017

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@idk should I bother saying it again?

- Alkosh build Is Spell 37.2k/Physical 33.2k resistance. 37k health
- Woeler's build Spell 32.5k/Physical 24.3k Resistance 40k health
- Both of them put CP in Spell Resistance

Can’t speak for what’s in there minds, but why spend the CP if it’s “not on your mind”

Not sure why you think I put CP in spell resistance, because I don't. Spell shield is at 0, at least if you are talking about that.

Maura_Neysa · December 2017

Woeler wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@idk should I bother saying it again?

- Alkosh build Is Spell 37.2k/Physical 33.2k resistance. 37k health
- Woeler's build Spell 32.5k/Physical 24.3k Resistance 40k health
- Both of them put CP in Spell Resistance

Can’t speak for what’s in there minds, but why spend the CP if it’s “not on your mind”

Not sure why you think I put CP in spell resistance, because I don't. Spell shield is at 0, at least if you are talking about that.

Hmm, not sure why I thought it either looking at the page now, unless I just referenced the wrong page when I was double checking. But I was fact checking myself, and it is there on Alcasts page.

No answer to what you would recommend for resistance? Are my estimates of your builds resistance accurate? Minus 1.5k for the 16 CP error?
Also out of curiosity, why no CP in Expert Defender, that seems like a good place given the Warriors and Axe’s HA. But I also usually PuG/adhoc rather then dedicated groups

Vapirko · December 2017

I think the ice LA should taunt. Heavy attacking is often too slow. Or at least something that is on the same speed as puncture. I could live with a melee range LA or soemthing. Whatever it is the HA is fine most of the time but occasionally he time it takes to charge up can really f with things if you lose taunt.

Urza1234 · December 2017

Chims wrote: »

Major Breach
One Hand and Shield Ability: Pierce Armor (Morph of Puncture)
Destruction Staff Ability: Weakness to Elements+Morphs
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Mark Target+Morphs
Warden Animal Companion Ability: Subterranean Assault (Morph of Scorch)

Major Fracture
One Hand and Shield Ability: Puncture+Morhps
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Mark Target+Morphs
Nightblade Shadow Ability: Surprise Attack (Morph of Veiled Strike)
Dragonknight Ardent Flame Ability: Noxious Breath (Morph of Fiery Breath)
Warden Animal Companion Ability: Subterranean Assault (Morph of Scorch)

There are plenty of ways to apply major breach and fracture outside of the S/B taunt. I am not sure why this has to be a mirrored taunt based ability to apply these effects. If you are a warden or a NB these are even easier to apply. Again, weakness to elements can be used on a ice tank and provide additional utility.

But why would you?

The two reasons that Pierce Armor(Puncture) is preferred are that:
A. Its a very overloaded skill, it taunts, it shreds resistance, and its super cheap for both its damage and utility. If this skill were balanced for how effective it is it would probably cost at least twice as much.
B. Pierce Armor is already the meta. Groups -expect- the tank to bring M Breach/Fract. If the tank doesnt then they absolutely suck for pugs, and would require their dedicated group to build around them.

Just realize that if you deslot puncture you then still have to bring a taunt -AND- a separate source of both forms of shred, which not all classes can even do, and some require like 3 slots to check all those boxes without using Pierce Armor. You're also using more globals and more resources to get the same effect.

Ice-staff HA taunt just isnt even an option, you cannot rely on it so its more of a perk rather than something usable. So yeah, we all take Pierce Armor because its the most efficient in terms of globals and slots and resources. Its not that we're elitists(necessarily), its not that we want to be completely reliant on Pierce Armor, its just that Pierce Armor is retardedly good.

Welcome to ESO, where ZOS refuses to overhaul their 2.5 year old class design that was flawed and outdated from day 1, even when it actively restricts the health of the game.

Chims · December 2017

The more I read in this thread the more I am unsure what the main argument of this thread is. Is it that ice staff is inferior to S/B because it can block more? Is it that Ice staff taunt is worthless and not viable for tanking? Is it that the harder content such as vet trials can't be done while tanking with a ice staff? Is it that ice staff is not BiS for tanking?

If your trial group needs to switch some things around to make it work that isn't a huge deal in my mind. At worst you would be asking one of them to apply major fracture if your class doesn't have it. That's one skill slot one person on the team needs to change.

Let's also not forget that the amount of people that even do trials is small. I have done like two runs ever and neither of them were tanking and I have had this game since beta. I am starting to think that what you guys are saying is that the staff isn't the best to use in Vet trials which honestly I don't even care about. I plan to try to ice tanking there just so I can validate the claims at some point but I am still working on gear and don't have as much time to devote to this game as I used to.

I did however successfully tank vWGT HM this weekend with both bars being an ice staff which shows its viable for content. Again I think a lot of the arguments here are that S/B is better because it allows you to turtle down easier and I don't disagree with that. Why I personally like ice staff tanking is I feel like I can do more dps and have more fun with a staff. The differences are not apples to apples since one is defensive and one is offensive. If we start talking about the fact that I can't readily apply fracture because I don't have puncture, what about the fact I can apply all three elemental status effects and ranged interrupts using force shock and you can't with S/B? Well you could argue the DPS can apply those effects but I would also argue they can apply fracture too.

If you are building to max out taking the least amount of damage and survival is the most important thing to you for trials you won't get an argument from me that S/B is probably better. The math is there that it is.