Ice Staff for Tanking, Feedback

DocFrost72

Jade1986 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Some frost staff tanking suggestions:

- Make frost abilities have a buff to attack speed. Basically faster animations for the heavy / medium attack and as a buff in the tri focus passive.
- reduce the taunt decay for frost staff to 5s, in line with the faster animation attacks OR
- take away the taunt mechanic from heavy attacks and slot it with elemental susceptibility or elemental Drain. This will keep the taunts away from the regular attacks, add major breach to the ice taunt (which will bring it up to the Sword and shield taunt level, not as good but better than current iteration.) and ensures the dps capabilities of frost staff is not affected.
- change the 'iceball' animation to an ice spike.

I love frost staff tanking don't get me wrong. The health shield that you receive from the heavy attack scales really well with health based tanks, and coupled with an ice warden, it's really quite viable in vet dungeons or trials but for new players, it's a bit of a doozy. Too many newbies mistook the frost heavy attack as a good way to increase dps.

With this change, all 3 elemental school can dps, while having a secondary effect (fire single target, lightning multiple target, frost attack speed). This will also add variety to the choice of gear for ice staff users. Imagine a fast heavy attack speed build with the elegance set.

The sword and shield should almost always be a primary tool for tanking but frost staff needs to at least be on par, if not close to it. Right now, inner fire is a much much better way to range taunt.

Why on earth would I waste a slot for an ability to taunt when I can do it with heavy attack . Seriously, just use your rotation, if you can call it that, taunt, use again, taunt. You dont have to wait till the boss attacks again.

This forgets a lot about tanking. Ice staff heavy attacks make you vulnerable to damage and CC. They are slow, so if you lose aggro it'll be 3 seconds before you get it back. They do not provide major breach and fracture. Heavy attacking for taunt is not a great idea in this game.

Chims

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Some frost staff tanking suggestions:

- Make frost abilities have a buff to attack speed. Basically faster animations for the heavy / medium attack and as a buff in the tri focus passive.
- reduce the taunt decay for frost staff to 5s, in line with the faster animation attacks OR
- take away the taunt mechanic from heavy attacks and slot it with elemental susceptibility or elemental Drain. This will keep the taunts away from the regular attacks, add major breach to the ice taunt (which will bring it up to the Sword and shield taunt level, not as good but better than current iteration.) and ensures the dps capabilities of frost staff is not affected.
- change the 'iceball' animation to an ice spike.

I love frost staff tanking don't get me wrong. The health shield that you receive from the heavy attack scales really well with health based tanks, and coupled with an ice warden, it's really quite viable in vet dungeons or trials but for new players, it's a bit of a doozy. Too many newbies mistook the frost heavy attack as a good way to increase dps.

With this change, all 3 elemental school can dps, while having a secondary effect (fire single target, lightning multiple target, frost attack speed). This will also add variety to the choice of gear for ice staff users. Imagine a fast heavy attack speed build with the elegance set.

The sword and shield should almost always be a primary tool for tanking but frost staff needs to at least be on par, if not close to it. Right now, inner fire is a much much better way to range taunt.

Why on earth would I waste a slot for an ability to taunt when I can do it with heavy attack . Seriously, just use your rotation, if you can call it that, taunt, use again, taunt. You dont have to wait till the boss attacks again.

This forgets a lot about tanking. Ice staff heavy attacks make you vulnerable to damage and CC. They are slow, so if you lose aggro it'll be 3 seconds before you get it back. They do not provide major breach and fracture. Heavy attacking for taunt is not a great idea in this game.

So grab inner fire to taunt and elemental drain for major breach. Or just backbar S/B for the taunt. You don't need to taunt a boss every second, weaving a heavy attack between rotations is sufficient. There are times where the 3 seconds might be too long so i would suggest having inner fire or S/B somewhere for emergencies. From what I have read they are downing the HA for staffs soon so it should be around 1.5 seconds I think which will be even better. You need to use HA as a ice tank anyways to keep resources up.

josiahva

I use the ice staff for tanking on my backbar stam DK tank, I choose the ice staff taunt over inner fire most time for my ranged taunt for 3 reasons:
1. Its free
2. It frees up a skill slot
3. It restores magicka while taunting(even if its an annoyingly long wind-up)

That being said, trying to use the ice staff as your main-bar tanking weapon is miserable. Even on my heals-spamming magicka warden tank, its barely adequate for non-DLC vet dungeons

Kuramas9tails

The heavy attack frost staff taunt was the dumbest thing ZOS has done imo.

Doctordarkspawn

The only thing frost staff needs outright is a taunt that gives reasonable penetration akin to puncture.

Though they're better off just making a new weapon line with a double slot because otherwise it's just going to be objectively worse than sword and shield.

Chims

Major Breach
One Hand and Shield Ability: Pierce Armor (Morph of Puncture)
Destruction Staff Ability: Weakness to Elements+Morphs
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Mark Target+Morphs
Warden Animal Companion Ability: Subterranean Assault (Morph of Scorch)

Major Fracture
One Hand and Shield Ability: Puncture+Morhps
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Mark Target+Morphs
Nightblade Shadow Ability: Surprise Attack (Morph of Veiled Strike)
Dragonknight Ardent Flame Ability: Noxious Breath (Morph of Fiery Breath)
Warden Animal Companion Ability: Subterranean Assault (Morph of Scorch)

There are plenty of ways to apply major breach and fracture outside of the S/B taunt. I am not sure why this has to be a mirrored taunt based ability to apply these effects. If you are a warden or a NB these are even easier to apply. Again, weakness to elements can be used on a ice tank and provide additional utility.

VaranisArano

Chims wrote: »

There are plenty of ways to apply major breach and fracture outside of the S/B taunt. I am not sure why this has to be a mirrored taunt based ability to apply these effects. If you are a warden or a NB these are even easier to apply. Again, weakness to elements can be used on a ice tank and provide additional utility.

It doesn't have to be a mirrored taunt based ability to apply those effects. As you say, there are plenty of other ways to do it. Especially if you know another group member is going to provide uptime on one or more of the debuffs.

However, if you are a tank looking to both taunt and apply those effects, Puncture/Pierce Armor is hands down the best ability for that. S&B tanks can apply both debuffs + a taunt in one ability, which is phenomenal in that only takes one skill (and a weapon line, admittedly) to do all of that. If you can't guarantee that someone else will provide the debuffs, Pierce Armor is still the best source of both debuffs + a taunt for a tank.

In short, there's a reason why Pierce Armor is the main taunt that it is. Therefore, if ZOS wants to make a new taunt ability viable enough for widespread use, its worth considering making it a mirrored taunt so that players don't lose out on whatever they have to add to do all the debuffs.

josiahva

Also going to point out that I also run elemental drain on the frost staff bar(so the healer doesn't have to) so the only debuff missing vs pierce armor is major fracture...which will be applied once I am close enough to the target to use that skill on main bar, in short, the frost staff makes an excellent addition as is to a tank's toolkit as a backbar weapon, but will never replace S&B mainbar without major changes.

Chims

I agree that the S/B taunt is better for the reasons you listed. Especially since the debuffs are pretty important to overall DPS. My only point is its workable with some coordination before tanking. As of right now since I don't have all my gear yet I am back baring puncture for just that reason. Also it is helpful to have a stamina bar when my magicka runs low. By switching between the two I have more resources than a normal tank as I can block with either resource when I switch while the other regens.

Once I get my gear tonight I am going to try to tank one of the vet DLC dungeons (I can already tank non DLC vet). I might back bar a resto staff instead of S/B so I can regain magicka faster. As long as I can tank one of the DLC's I think its workable. I don't suspect this will be any worse than my magicka templar tank who uses S/B and can tank those. What I know I am going to need is lots of regen. Since you are using your DPS/Buff pool for blocking you need to make sure you can get those resources back. That's the main draw back I can think of for me at least. I think the changes to resource generation with morrowind probably make the ice tanking even worse.

Maura_Neysa

josiahva wrote: »

I use the ice staff for tanking on my backbar stam DK tank, I choose the ice staff taunt over inner fire most time for my ranged taunt for 3 reasons:
1. Its free
2. It frees up a skill slot
3. It restores magicka while taunting(even if its an annoyingly long wind-up)

That being said, trying to use the ice staff as your main-bar tanking weapon is miserable. Even on my heals-spamming magicka warden tank, its barely adequate for non-DLC vet dungeons

I 1H/s & Ice Staff tank Vet Warrior, Vet HM/no death/speed run Cradle, Maz, Bloodroot, Faulkreach, WGT, ICP. I never. Ever taunt with the Ice Staff, I don’t even take that passive. In that high level content you simple don’t have that kind of time. The Warrior it’s for 20k through block and if you loose him, that 1.5 second heavy is enough time for him to wipe a group. Same with Bloodroot, all 3 Amalgamatios hit for 20k though block and there’s three of them, that’s 6 out of 15 seconds you’re not blocking if you’re Ice Staff HAing, that’s just not feasible.

Chims

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I use the ice staff for tanking on my backbar stam DK tank, I choose the ice staff taunt over inner fire most time for my ranged taunt for 3 reasons:
1. Its free
2. It frees up a skill slot
3. It restores magicka while taunting(even if its an annoyingly long wind-up)

That being said, trying to use the ice staff as your main-bar tanking weapon is miserable. Even on my heals-spamming magicka warden tank, its barely adequate for non-DLC vet dungeons

I 1H/s & Ice Staff tank Vet Warrior, Vet HM/no death/speed run Cradle, Maz, Bloodroot, Faulkreach, WGT, ICP. I never. Ever taunt with the Ice Staff, I don’t even take that passive. In that high level content you simple don’t have that kind of time. The Warrior it’s for 20k through block and if you loose him, that 1.5 second heavy is enough time for him to wipe a group. Same with Bloodroot, all 3 Amalgamatios hit for 20k though block and there’s three of them, that’s 6 out of 15 seconds you’re not blocking if you’re Ice Staff HAing, that’s just not feasible.

You don't have to use the ice taunt exclusively, you have access to inner fire. I will say the more I am tanking in vet I do like the S/B not because of the taunt but because of the ability to switch and use stamina for blocking when magicka is low.

xaraan

I like some of the ideas I've seen to make using an ice staff more feasible for a dps build. As for tanking I'd just create an undaunted passive that allows you to turn one into a tanking version so you don't have a bunch of perks that change what the staff could be doing for you if you don't want to use it to tank.

PlagueSD

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Anything to do with an AOE taunt gets an instant no.

AOE taunts and limiting to melee range = instant NO. I use frost staff for those fights where I CAN'T stay in melee range or I have to move a lot. (ie. Lord Warden). If I need melee tanking skills, I already have S&B.

DPS should be giving the tank a 3-count before they do ANYTHING. They should NEVER be running in WITH the tank to start the fight. This gives the tank enough time to corral everything up and start managing threat.

josiahva

Urza1234 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Some frost staff tanking suggestions:

- Make frost abilities have a buff to attack speed. Basically faster animations for the heavy / medium attack and as a buff in the tri focus passive.
- reduce the taunt decay for frost staff to 5s, in line with the faster animation attacks OR
- take away the taunt mechanic from heavy attacks and slot it with elemental susceptibility or elemental Drain. This will keep the taunts away from the regular attacks, add major breach to the ice taunt (which will bring it up to the Sword and shield taunt level, not as good but better than current iteration.) and ensures the dps capabilities of frost staff is not affected.
- change the 'iceball' animation to an ice spike.

I love frost staff tanking don't get me wrong. The health shield that you receive from the heavy attack scales really well with health based tanks, and coupled with an ice warden, it's really quite viable in vet dungeons or trials but for new players, it's a bit of a doozy. Too many newbies mistook the frost heavy attack as a good way to increase dps.

With this change, all 3 elemental school can dps, while having a secondary effect (fire single target, lightning multiple target, frost attack speed). This will also add variety to the choice of gear for ice staff users. Imagine a fast heavy attack speed build with the elegance set.

The sword and shield should almost always be a primary tool for tanking but frost staff needs to at least be on par, if not close to it. Right now, inner fire is a much much better way to range taunt.

Why on earth would I waste a slot for an ability to taunt when I can do it with heavy attack . Seriously, just use your rotation, if you can call it that, taunt, use again, taunt. You dont have to wait till the boss attacks again.

This simply does not work for trash like in Falkreath, or any dungeon where the trash casts uppercut or fear. The more you grab agro the more CC heads your way, the more CC heads your way the less you can afford a full 2s animation for that heavy attack. On bosses that have adds who cast CC you either simply cannot grab agro on all the adds with frost staff alone. You either have to let the adds attack your group or use a taunting ability.

Its not that difficult, no one ever said the ice staff heavy is a replacement for inner fire, so when you need inner fire...slot it, but the ice staff heavy is perfectly sufficient for most times you need a ranged taunt.

Maura_Neysa

josiahva wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Some frost staff tanking suggestions:

- Make frost abilities have a buff to attack speed. Basically faster animations for the heavy / medium attack and as a buff in the tri focus passive.
- reduce the taunt decay for frost staff to 5s, in line with the faster animation attacks OR
- take away the taunt mechanic from heavy attacks and slot it with elemental susceptibility or elemental Drain. This will keep the taunts away from the regular attacks, add major breach to the ice taunt (which will bring it up to the Sword and shield taunt level, not as good but better than current iteration.) and ensures the dps capabilities of frost staff is not affected.
- change the 'iceball' animation to an ice spike.

I love frost staff tanking don't get me wrong. The health shield that you receive from the heavy attack scales really well with health based tanks, and coupled with an ice warden, it's really quite viable in vet dungeons or trials but for new players, it's a bit of a doozy. Too many newbies mistook the frost heavy attack as a good way to increase dps.

With this change, all 3 elemental school can dps, while having a secondary effect (fire single target, lightning multiple target, frost attack speed). This will also add variety to the choice of gear for ice staff users. Imagine a fast heavy attack speed build with the elegance set.

The sword and shield should almost always be a primary tool for tanking but frost staff needs to at least be on par, if not close to it. Right now, inner fire is a much much better way to range taunt.

Why on earth would I waste a slot for an ability to taunt when I can do it with heavy attack . Seriously, just use your rotation, if you can call it that, taunt, use again, taunt. You dont have to wait till the boss attacks again.

This simply does not work for trash like in Falkreath, or any dungeon where the trash casts uppercut or fear. The more you grab agro the more CC heads your way, the more CC heads your way the less you can afford a full 2s animation for that heavy attack. On bosses that have adds who cast CC you either simply cannot grab agro on all the adds with frost staff alone. You either have to let the adds attack your group or use a taunting ability.

Its not that difficult, no one ever said the ice staff heavy is a replacement for inner fire, so when you need inner fire...slot it, but the ice staff heavy is perfectly sufficient for most times you need a ranged taunt.

You do understand that given “when you need inner fire” covers about 99.9% of the time unless of course you’re counting the times you don’t need a tank at all.

Chims wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I use the ice staff for tanking on my backbar stam DK tank, I choose the ice staff taunt over inner fire most time for my ranged taunt for 3 reasons:
1. Its free
2. It frees up a skill slot
3. It restores magicka while taunting(even if its an annoyingly long wind-up)

That being said, trying to use the ice staff as your main-bar tanking weapon is miserable. Even on my heals-spamming magicka warden tank, its barely adequate for non-DLC vet dungeons

I 1H/s & Ice Staff tank Vet Warrior, Vet HM/no death/speed run Cradle, Maz, Bloodroot, Faulkreach, WGT, ICP. I never. Ever taunt with the Ice Staff, I don’t even take that passive. In that high level content you simple don’t have that kind of time. The Warrior it’s for 20k through block and if you loose him, that 1.5 second heavy is enough time for him to wipe a group. Same with Bloodroot, all 3 Amalgamatios hit for 20k though block and there’s three of them, that’s 6 out of 15 seconds you’re not blocking if you’re Ice Staff HAing, that’s just not feasible.

You don't have to use the ice taunt exclusively, you have access to inner fire. I will say the more I am tanking in vet I do like the S/B not because of the taunt but because of the ability to switch and use stamina for blocking when magicka is low.

You did read what I wrote right? I’m not “getting into” Vet tanking. I’m PuGing Vet DLC content because that makes it interesting.
Switching what resource I block with is useless because I never have any magicka anyway, that’s what all my skills cost except Pierce Armor.

Betsararie

its garbage

Maura_Neysa

Blanco wrote: »

its garbage

Thank you for this highly informative and insightful comment

idk

Tasear wrote: »

I would like better animations... why does frost and flame heavy attack look almost the same. Also why does it always go into a straight line. I mean sure it has to hit the target but make it look better . @ZOS_RichLambert my complaint .

Now if I was attempting a pure frost staff tank this what I would "try"

Undaunted Bastion Set

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Physical Resistance

(4 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you taunt an enemy while you are under 60% Health, gain a damage shield that absorbs 13760 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Whitestrake's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery

(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.


So the weakness off ice tanks is speed of the taunt, so if I was to "try" such a thing then I would capitalize on slowing enemies down. Maybe use destructive touch, caltrops and wall of elements.

I kinda like this idea

Penetrating Magic - I would like to see this also apply Minor Maim to the primary target hit by your Ice Staff Light Attacks. Rank 1 lasts 3 seconds, Rank 2 lasts 6 seconds.

This makes sense though how that would work in pvp...I really can't say.

Considering tanks do not stack resistance for the most challenging content I do not see the need for the sets described for a frost tank.

As for the animations. Both fire and frost are projectiles and lightning and rstaff are channels. Very little room for something different.

The idea of taking a lame restrofit to create a magicka tanking weapon will merely lead to still having a lame magicka tanking weapon. A new style weapon designed from the ground up is required to get something that actually works in an acceptable manner. At that, it should not work the same as a S&B since that would be even more absurd. If it works like S&B then one might as well use that line.

Maura_Neysa

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I would like better animations... why does frost and flame heavy attack look almost the same. Also why does it always go into a straight line. I mean sure it has to hit the target but make it look better . @ZOS_RichLambert my complaint .

Now if I was attempting a pure frost staff tank this what I would "try"

Undaunted Bastion Set

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Physical Resistance

(4 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you taunt an enemy while you are under 60% Health, gain a damage shield that absorbs 13760 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Whitestrake's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery

(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.


So the weakness off ice tanks is speed of the taunt, so if I was to "try" such a thing then I would capitalize on slowing enemies down. Maybe use destructive touch, caltrops and wall of elements.

I kinda like this idea

Penetrating Magic - I would like to see this also apply Minor Maim to the primary target hit by your Ice Staff Light Attacks. Rank 1 lasts 3 seconds, Rank 2 lasts 6 seconds.

This makes sense though how that would work in pvp...I really can't say.

Considering tanks do not stack resistance for the most challenging content I do not see the need for the sets described for a frost tank.

As for the animations. Both fire and frost are projectiles and lightning and rstaff are channels. Very little room for something different.

The idea of taking a lame restrofit to create a magicka tanking weapon will merely lead to still having a lame magicka tanking weapon. A new style weapon designed from the ground up is required to get something that actually works in an acceptable manner. At that, it should not work the same as a S&B since that would be even more absurd. If it works like S&B then one might as well use that line.

@idk Clearly you don’t tank. If your resistance isn’t 33150 on both you’re failing. That being said, neither Whitestricks or Bastion are particularly good sets at end game level. Most tanks use the Monster Set to cap out, Bloodspawn being BiS.

Background: tanked Vet HRC, AA, SO, all three 4man skins all on a Warden tank with 1H/S & Ice Staff

DocFrost72

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I would like better animations... why does frost and flame heavy attack look almost the same. Also why does it always go into a straight line. I mean sure it has to hit the target but make it look better . @ZOS_RichLambert my complaint .

Now if I was attempting a pure frost staff tank this what I would "try"

Undaunted Bastion Set

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Physical Resistance

(4 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you taunt an enemy while you are under 60% Health, gain a damage shield that absorbs 13760 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Whitestrake's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery

(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.


So the weakness off ice tanks is speed of the taunt, so if I was to "try" such a thing then I would capitalize on slowing enemies down. Maybe use destructive touch, caltrops and wall of elements.

I kinda like this idea

Penetrating Magic - I would like to see this also apply Minor Maim to the primary target hit by your Ice Staff Light Attacks. Rank 1 lasts 3 seconds, Rank 2 lasts 6 seconds.

This makes sense though how that would work in pvp...I really can't say.

Considering tanks do not stack resistance for the most challenging content I do not see the need for the sets described for a frost tank.

As for the animations. Both fire and frost are projectiles and lightning and rstaff are channels. Very little room for something different.

The idea of taking a lame restrofit to create a magicka tanking weapon will merely lead to still having a lame magicka tanking weapon. A new style weapon designed from the ground up is required to get something that actually works in an acceptable manner. At that, it should not work the same as a S&B since that would be even more absurd. If it works like S&B then one might as well use that line.

@idk Clearly you don’t tank. If your resistance isn’t 33150 on both you’re failing. That being said, neither Whitestricks or Bastion are particularly good sets at end game level. Most tanks use the Monster Set to cap out, Bloodspawn being BiS.

Background: tanked Vet HRC, AA, SO, all three 4man skins all on a Warden tank with 1H/S & Ice Staff

I have over that resistance number (cap) with torug's, ebon, and lord warden. I think what your quoted poster is saying is that you don't ever need to touch a set that is all about increasing resistances.

This is why no one would bring fortified brass into an end game raid.

Maura_Neysa

@DocFrost72 if you wanted to run some other Monster Set. For example a Templar tank NEEDS Swarm Mothers then you need the rest of your resistance from the 5 piece. I feel like I usually need to assume tanking ignorance. Like stating 33150 because I’ve tank to tanks running 40k+ resistance >_<

Yes I’ve run a Templar Tank, love my Warden more. However vSO where most of the time the Off tank is solo, then a Templar is powerful.

DocFrost72

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@DocFrost72 if you wanted to run some other Monster Set. For example a Templar tank NEEDS Swarm Mothers then you need the rest of your resistance from the 5 piece. I feel like I usually need to assume tanking ignorance. Like stating 33150 because I’ve tank to tanks running 40k+ resistance >_<

Yes I’ve run a Templar Tank, love my Warden more. However vSO where most of the time the Off tank is solo, then a Templar is powerful.

But in the instances where you need swarm mother (trash barring twins in MoL), you don't need capped resists. Trash hits like wet noodles as is. On boss fights where SM isn't doing anything anyway, you can swap to LWD/BS and be at cap.

Am I missing a fight other than twins where you need SM? Genuinely curious.

Maura_Neysa

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@DocFrost72 if you wanted to run some other Monster Set. For example a Templar tank NEEDS Swarm Mothers then you need the rest of your resistance from the 5 piece. I feel like I usually need to assume tanking ignorance. Like stating 33150 because I’ve tank to tanks running 40k+ resistance >_<

Yes I’ve run a Templar Tank, love my Warden more. However vSO where most of the time the Off tank is solo, then a Templar is powerful.

But in the instances where you need swarm mother (trash barring twins in MoL), you don't need capped resists. Trash hits like wet noodles as is. On boss fights where SM isn't doing anything anyway, you can swap to LWD/BS and be at cap.

Am I missing a fight other than twins where you need SM? Genuinely curious.

I was referring to broader scope, like Faulkreath Bloodyhron, you need swarms for the atros but cap for the fight. I’ve never tried not being at cap for fights Off tanking the Mantakora and Liama in SO final, Halls first boss none split group are times when the Off tank solos Away from the group by themselves. Those are places Templar tank self heals go a long way

Chims

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Some frost staff tanking suggestions:

- Make frost abilities have a buff to attack speed. Basically faster animations for the heavy / medium attack and as a buff in the tri focus passive.
- reduce the taunt decay for frost staff to 5s, in line with the faster animation attacks OR
- take away the taunt mechanic from heavy attacks and slot it with elemental susceptibility or elemental Drain. This will keep the taunts away from the regular attacks, add major breach to the ice taunt (which will bring it up to the Sword and shield taunt level, not as good but better than current iteration.) and ensures the dps capabilities of frost staff is not affected.
- change the 'iceball' animation to an ice spike.

I love frost staff tanking don't get me wrong. The health shield that you receive from the heavy attack scales really well with health based tanks, and coupled with an ice warden, it's really quite viable in vet dungeons or trials but for new players, it's a bit of a doozy. Too many newbies mistook the frost heavy attack as a good way to increase dps.

With this change, all 3 elemental school can dps, while having a secondary effect (fire single target, lightning multiple target, frost attack speed). This will also add variety to the choice of gear for ice staff users. Imagine a fast heavy attack speed build with the elegance set.

The sword and shield should almost always be a primary tool for tanking but frost staff needs to at least be on par, if not close to it. Right now, inner fire is a much much better way to range taunt.

Why on earth would I waste a slot for an ability to taunt when I can do it with heavy attack . Seriously, just use your rotation, if you can call it that, taunt, use again, taunt. You dont have to wait till the boss attacks again.

This simply does not work for trash like in Falkreath, or any dungeon where the trash casts uppercut or fear. The more you grab agro the more CC heads your way, the more CC heads your way the less you can afford a full 2s animation for that heavy attack. On bosses that have adds who cast CC you either simply cannot grab agro on all the adds with frost staff alone. You either have to let the adds attack your group or use a taunting ability.

Its not that difficult, no one ever said the ice staff heavy is a replacement for inner fire, so when you need inner fire...slot it, but the ice staff heavy is perfectly sufficient for most times you need a ranged taunt.

You do understand that given “when you need inner fire” covers about 99.9% of the time unless of course you’re counting the times you don’t need a tank at all.

Chims wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I use the ice staff for tanking on my backbar stam DK tank, I choose the ice staff taunt over inner fire most time for my ranged taunt for 3 reasons:
1. Its free
2. It frees up a skill slot
3. It restores magicka while taunting(even if its an annoyingly long wind-up)

That being said, trying to use the ice staff as your main-bar tanking weapon is miserable. Even on my heals-spamming magicka warden tank, its barely adequate for non-DLC vet dungeons

I 1H/s & Ice Staff tank Vet Warrior, Vet HM/no death/speed run Cradle, Maz, Bloodroot, Faulkreach, WGT, ICP. I never. Ever taunt with the Ice Staff, I don’t even take that passive. In that high level content you simple don’t have that kind of time. The Warrior it’s for 20k through block and if you loose him, that 1.5 second heavy is enough time for him to wipe a group. Same with Bloodroot, all 3 Amalgamatios hit for 20k though block and there’s three of them, that’s 6 out of 15 seconds you’re not blocking if you’re Ice Staff HAing, that’s just not feasible.

You don't have to use the ice taunt exclusively, you have access to inner fire. I will say the more I am tanking in vet I do like the S/B not because of the taunt but because of the ability to switch and use stamina for blocking when magicka is low.

You did read what I wrote right? I’m not “getting into” Vet tanking. I’m PuGing Vet DLC content because that makes it interesting.
Switching what resource I block with is useless because I never have any magicka anyway, that’s what all my skills cost except Pierce Armor.

Yes I read what you wrote. You said you never use the ice taunt which to me is inefficient due to the fact the majority of the time another taunt isn't needed. Why waste resources when I can taunt and get a lot back at the same time. With lotus active I get the following with HA:

Taunt
Damage Shield
Magicka back
Large heal

I never said anything about you "getting into tanking" and i PuG vet dungeons including DLC too as pure ice.

I am still perfecting my build and for the tougher content I will grab the S/B (backbar) because I can main tank with the ice staff and switch to S/B so I can burn through my stamina when magicka is low and I can't block. I have high regen so a couple S/B blocks and my magicka is full again. By doing so I have another 15-20k pool of resources for blocking. That was my point, I can increase my pool for blocking because both magicka and stamina is used by switching bars. Effectively I can block more times than you and mitigate more damage by doing so. I also basically gain the ability to regen resources while I hold block since I can switch back and forth. Block with S/B magicka regens, block with staff stamina regens.

There's nothing particularly hard about any of the dungeons DLC included (at least ICP, WGT, CoS and RoM). They are all mechanical based, if you can't dodge an attack or hold block because a ice staff is in your hand thats a problem. If you know the mechanics then tanking these shouldn't be a huge issue.

Maura_Neysa

Chims wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Some frost staff tanking suggestions:

- Make frost abilities have a buff to attack speed. Basically faster animations for the heavy / medium attack and as a buff in the tri focus passive.
- reduce the taunt decay for frost staff to 5s, in line with the faster animation attacks OR
- take away the taunt mechanic from heavy attacks and slot it with elemental susceptibility or elemental Drain. This will keep the taunts away from the regular attacks, add major breach to the ice taunt (which will bring it up to the Sword and shield taunt level, not as good but better than current iteration.) and ensures the dps capabilities of frost staff is not affected.
- change the 'iceball' animation to an ice spike.

I love frost staff tanking don't get me wrong. The health shield that you receive from the heavy attack scales really well with health based tanks, and coupled with an ice warden, it's really quite viable in vet dungeons or trials but for new players, it's a bit of a doozy. Too many newbies mistook the frost heavy attack as a good way to increase dps.

With this change, all 3 elemental school can dps, while having a secondary effect (fire single target, lightning multiple target, frost attack speed). This will also add variety to the choice of gear for ice staff users. Imagine a fast heavy attack speed build with the elegance set.

The sword and shield should almost always be a primary tool for tanking but frost staff needs to at least be on par, if not close to it. Right now, inner fire is a much much better way to range taunt.

Why on earth would I waste a slot for an ability to taunt when I can do it with heavy attack . Seriously, just use your rotation, if you can call it that, taunt, use again, taunt. You dont have to wait till the boss attacks again.

This simply does not work for trash like in Falkreath, or any dungeon where the trash casts uppercut or fear. The more you grab agro the more CC heads your way, the more CC heads your way the less you can afford a full 2s animation for that heavy attack. On bosses that have adds who cast CC you either simply cannot grab agro on all the adds with frost staff alone. You either have to let the adds attack your group or use a taunting ability.

Its not that difficult, no one ever said the ice staff heavy is a replacement for inner fire, so when you need inner fire...slot it, but the ice staff heavy is perfectly sufficient for most times you need a ranged taunt.

You do understand that given “when you need inner fire” covers about 99.9% of the time unless of course you’re counting the times you don’t need a tank at all.

Chims wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I use the ice staff for tanking on my backbar stam DK tank, I choose the ice staff taunt over inner fire most time for my ranged taunt for 3 reasons:
1. Its free
2. It frees up a skill slot
3. It restores magicka while taunting(even if its an annoyingly long wind-up)

That being said, trying to use the ice staff as your main-bar tanking weapon is miserable. Even on my heals-spamming magicka warden tank, its barely adequate for non-DLC vet dungeons

I 1H/s & Ice Staff tank Vet Warrior, Vet HM/no death/speed run Cradle, Maz, Bloodroot, Faulkreach, WGT, ICP. I never. Ever taunt with the Ice Staff, I don’t even take that passive. In that high level content you simple don’t have that kind of time. The Warrior it’s for 20k through block and if you loose him, that 1.5 second heavy is enough time for him to wipe a group. Same with Bloodroot, all 3 Amalgamatios hit for 20k though block and there’s three of them, that’s 6 out of 15 seconds you’re not blocking if you’re Ice Staff HAing, that’s just not feasible.

You don't have to use the ice taunt exclusively, you have access to inner fire. I will say the more I am tanking in vet I do like the S/B not because of the taunt but because of the ability to switch and use stamina for blocking when magicka is low.

You did read what I wrote right? I’m not “getting into” Vet tanking. I’m PuGing Vet DLC content because that makes it interesting.
Switching what resource I block with is useless because I never have any magicka anyway, that’s what all my skills cost except Pierce Armor.

Yes I read what you wrote. You said you never use the ice taunt which to me is inefficient due to the fact the majority of the time another taunt isn't needed. Why waste resources when I can taunt and get a lot back at the same time. With lotus active I get the following with HA:

Taunt
Damage Shield
Magicka back
Large heal

I never said anything about you "getting into tanking" and i PuG vet dungeons including DLC too as pure ice.

I am still perfecting my build and for the tougher content I will grab the S/B (backbar) because I can main tank with the ice staff and switch to S/B so I can burn through my stamina when magicka is low and I can't block. I have high regen so a couple S/B blocks and my magicka is full again. By doing so I have another 15-20k pool of resources for blocking. That was my point, I can increase my pool for blocking because both magicka and stamina is used by switching bars. Effectively I can block more times than you and mitigate more damage by doing so. I also basically gain the ability to regen resources while I hold block since I can switch back and forth. Block with S/B magicka regens, block with staff stamina regens.

There's nothing particularly hard about any of the dungeons DLC included (at least ICP, WGT, CoS and RoM). They are all mechanical based, if you can't dodge an attack or hold block because a ice staff is in your hand thats a problem. If you know the mechanics then tanking these shouldn't be a huge issue.

All I can say is, I do NOT have the kind of time to Ice Staff heavy every hard hitting mob, most of the time I don’t have time to taunt them with a skill, gathering them up and pinning them down is what trash fights are about. The only time I could potentially use the have is face tanking no add bosses.

As for resources, if you have high regen on your block resource... why? Wasted, run high regen on your active resource.

This is a vet Trials tank test, I definitely can’t block afford to switch my block
https://youtu.be/nnhYhY9-TpA

Chims

I have highish magicka regen which is my block resource being that I am an ice tank. It is also my DPS resource and buff resource obviously. I don't feel I am ready for Sanctum Ophidia solo testing yet as I still need gear and to work on build/rotations. Once I get those more in place I will see if I can run it successfully, its possible I can't trial tank with the staff alone.

I am just getting back since the morrowind drop so I am still adjusting to the new resource limitations and on a new class. As time goes on I should be able to validate this.

josiahva

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Some frost staff tanking suggestions:

- Make frost abilities have a buff to attack speed. Basically faster animations for the heavy / medium attack and as a buff in the tri focus passive.
- reduce the taunt decay for frost staff to 5s, in line with the faster animation attacks OR
- take away the taunt mechanic from heavy attacks and slot it with elemental susceptibility or elemental Drain. This will keep the taunts away from the regular attacks, add major breach to the ice taunt (which will bring it up to the Sword and shield taunt level, not as good but better than current iteration.) and ensures the dps capabilities of frost staff is not affected.
- change the 'iceball' animation to an ice spike.

I love frost staff tanking don't get me wrong. The health shield that you receive from the heavy attack scales really well with health based tanks, and coupled with an ice warden, it's really quite viable in vet dungeons or trials but for new players, it's a bit of a doozy. Too many newbies mistook the frost heavy attack as a good way to increase dps.

With this change, all 3 elemental school can dps, while having a secondary effect (fire single target, lightning multiple target, frost attack speed). This will also add variety to the choice of gear for ice staff users. Imagine a fast heavy attack speed build with the elegance set.

The sword and shield should almost always be a primary tool for tanking but frost staff needs to at least be on par, if not close to it. Right now, inner fire is a much much better way to range taunt.

Why on earth would I waste a slot for an ability to taunt when I can do it with heavy attack . Seriously, just use your rotation, if you can call it that, taunt, use again, taunt. You dont have to wait till the boss attacks again.

This simply does not work for trash like in Falkreath, or any dungeon where the trash casts uppercut or fear. The more you grab agro the more CC heads your way, the more CC heads your way the less you can afford a full 2s animation for that heavy attack. On bosses that have adds who cast CC you either simply cannot grab agro on all the adds with frost staff alone. You either have to let the adds attack your group or use a taunting ability.

Its not that difficult, no one ever said the ice staff heavy is a replacement for inner fire, so when you need inner fire...slot it, but the ice staff heavy is perfectly sufficient for most times you need a ranged taunt.

You do understand that given “when you need inner fire” covers about 99.9% of the time unless of course you’re counting the times you don’t need a tank at all.

Chims wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I use the ice staff for tanking on my backbar stam DK tank, I choose the ice staff taunt over inner fire most time for my ranged taunt for 3 reasons:
1. Its free
2. It frees up a skill slot
3. It restores magicka while taunting(even if its an annoyingly long wind-up)

That being said, trying to use the ice staff as your main-bar tanking weapon is miserable. Even on my heals-spamming magicka warden tank, its barely adequate for non-DLC vet dungeons

I 1H/s & Ice Staff tank Vet Warrior, Vet HM/no death/speed run Cradle, Maz, Bloodroot, Faulkreach, WGT, ICP. I never. Ever taunt with the Ice Staff, I don’t even take that passive. In that high level content you simple don’t have that kind of time. The Warrior it’s for 20k through block and if you loose him, that 1.5 second heavy is enough time for him to wipe a group. Same with Bloodroot, all 3 Amalgamatios hit for 20k though block and there’s three of them, that’s 6 out of 15 seconds you’re not blocking if you’re Ice Staff HAing, that’s just not feasible.

You don't have to use the ice taunt exclusively, you have access to inner fire. I will say the more I am tanking in vet I do like the S/B not because of the taunt but because of the ability to switch and use stamina for blocking when magicka is low.

You did read what I wrote right? I’m not “getting into” Vet tanking. I’m PuGing Vet DLC content because that makes it interesting.
Switching what resource I block with is useless because I never have any magicka anyway, that’s what all my skills cost except Pierce Armor.

lol, no inner fire isn't needed 99% of the time. The ONLY time I ever slot it is when the ice staff taunt just isnt fast enough...which is limited to trials essentially, and not even all of those. I have chains to grab enemies far away(or at least aggro them on me if they are stunned). Inner Fire is only of limited usefulness with the only advantage over an ice staff heavy being speed, it is not needed 99% of the time if you backbar an ice staff, but don't believe me, I have only been tanking this game for 4 years.

Doctordarkspawn

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I would like better animations... why does frost and flame heavy attack look almost the same. Also why does it always go into a straight line. I mean sure it has to hit the target but make it look better . @ZOS_RichLambert my complaint .

Now if I was attempting a pure frost staff tank this what I would "try"

Undaunted Bastion Set

(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Physical Resistance

(4 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(5 items) When you taunt an enemy while you are under 60% Health, gain a damage shield that absorbs 13760 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Whitestrake's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health

(3 items) Adds 1935 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery

(5 items) When you take damage while you are under 30% Health, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10320 damage for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.


So the weakness off ice tanks is speed of the taunt, so if I was to "try" such a thing then I would capitalize on slowing enemies down. Maybe use destructive touch, caltrops and wall of elements.

I kinda like this idea

Penetrating Magic - I would like to see this also apply Minor Maim to the primary target hit by your Ice Staff Light Attacks. Rank 1 lasts 3 seconds, Rank 2 lasts 6 seconds.

This makes sense though how that would work in pvp...I really can't say.

Considering tanks do not stack resistance for the most challenging content I do not see the need for the sets described for a frost tank.

As for the animations. Both fire and frost are projectiles and lightning and rstaff are channels. Very little room for something different.

The idea of taking a lame restrofit to create a magicka tanking weapon will merely lead to still having a lame magicka tanking weapon. A new style weapon designed from the ground up is required to get something that actually works in an acceptable manner. At that, it should not work the same as a S&B since that would be even more absurd. If it works like S&B then one might as well use that line.

@idk Clearly you don’t tank. If your resistance isn’t 33150 on both you’re failing. That being said, neither Whitestricks or Bastion are particularly good sets at end game level. Most tanks use the Monster Set to cap out, Bloodspawn being BiS.

Background: tanked Vet HRC, AA, SO, all three 4man skins all on a Warden tank with 1H/S & Ice Staff

I hear conflicting reports on this.

Some people say the resistance matters fairly little and idling around 30 is fine. Others say otherwise.

dodgehopper_ESO

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Anything to do with an AOE taunt gets an instant no.

I don't think he's asking for AoE taunt but aoe damage, which would draw attention initially to the tank (much like other skills do. Ie: Inhale, Talons, etc)

Jade1986

This doesnt have much to do with ice staff, but i was wondering what you should have your health at for tanking harder content. Over 40k, or is that enough?