Solution to fake tanks - add report function

Acrolas · December 2017

I couldn't even imagine there was a flip side to all this, until this morning.

I queued as a tank on an endgame tank. Get in there with three >50 characters, and there's another tank. I'm pretty sure he took the healer slot because we didn't have a healer.

And all that *** did for half the *** dungeon was taunt-steal and then run around. So I had to dump skill points on the spot to make a DPS/Healer support character (stamplar to the rescue) to make sure this *** got through the entire thing.

I had to pull the bourbon out after that one. And it left me firmer of the impression that if you really want to be a tank, just press tank. Because this guy wasn't going to do any damage or healing. I really do think being able to choose every role is more problematic than helpful.

zaria · December 2017

Acrolas wrote: »

I couldn't even imagine there was a flip side to all this, until this morning.

I queued as a tank on an endgame tank. Get in there with three >50 characters, and there's another tank. I'm pretty sure he took the healer slot because we didn't have a healer.

And all that *** did for half the *** dungeon was taunt-steal and then run around. So I had to dump skill points on the spot to make a DPS/Healer support character (stamplar to the rescue) to make sure this *** got through the entire thing.

I had to pull the bourbon out after that one. And it left me firmer of the impression that if you really want to be a tank, just press tank. Because this guy wasn't going to do any damage or healing. I really do think being able to choose every role is more problematic than helpful.

LOL that one is new, Dps who want to be healers, especially wardens, are far too common, however they do nothing wrong except lowering their own dps and mess up my parse, should I do mutagen or will you continue to spam rapid regen?
No its very smart to have vigor or BoL on bar in a pug, over healing don't do any damage except lowering dps.
And it puts the designated healer off balance.

Kite tanks is totally hate as DD because of ground based AoE is wasted, enjoy both DD going HA only.

Militan1404 · December 2017

SydneyGrey wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

[snip] Why do people get so worked up about "fake tanks" when the real issue are the "fake DPS" that you see? If your DPS is high enough, you can blow through virtually every normal dungeon without a tank, without a healer. It's when the DPS are in 30K health heavy armor light-attacking with their bow that they start to notice problems.
Of course, I would never advocate such a draconian "solution" to the "fake DPS" problem, nor would I ever entertain this for this so-called problem of yours.

There's no such thing as "fake" DPS. There is bad DPS, but not "fake" DPS. When you queue for a dungeon there are only three roles you can choose from when you enter, and if you're not a tank or healer, you have to check off the DPS box by default. Basically, you don't want anyone doing DPS unless they're extremely competent. That would be ideal, sure, but you can't say that newer or less competent people aren't allowed to do dungeons. If you don't want incompetent people PUGing with you, then don't do PUGs. Do dungeon runs with a high-level guild group instead.

Well i actually got a dps the other day with full heavy armor and s&b and kept stealing agro from and just stod there blokking XD

[edited to remove quote]

SupremeRissole · December 2017

Honestly don't see the big deal in normal, like get over it the number of fake tank threads is getting silly. For veteran, completely different I think that its silly queing as something you arent able to do, but then again if someone pulling 5k dps queues as a dps for vet RoM, I think that is worse than a high dps sorc who is a fake tank. Everyday someone queues as something they are unable to perform and if it gets to a point where the group can't progress due to that person, then I'll kick them.

MaleAmazon · December 2017

I dont think the problem is fake tanks in normal per se, it´s the fact that the behaviour is normalised, see broken windows theory;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

So these people might well go on to keep faketanking vet dungeons, and it spreads the notion that it is ok to cheat others in order to gain an advantage.

But then this is a game where people argue that Miat´s addon is quite acceptable since ZoS havent banned it

I´ll restate it; add an option to play with unbalanced groups, that way you know what youre getting into. It is explicitly stated in DF that the role picker is there to create balanced groups. So it´s against ToS to try and game it.

I should really work at ZoS

central_scrutinizer · December 2017

krachall wrote: »

Couldn't any character don heavy armor, a shield, slot Puncture, and easily and effectively tank any normal random dungeon?

I made two NB tanks for this event, both under level 15, and have breezed through every dungeon with that setup. Tanking normal dungeons is stupid easy...and boring. No reason anyone can't do it.

Absolutely, you don't necessarily even need heavy armor or a shield at all.

All that's really required to tank is the willingness to taunt a boss and keep it taunted. All you have to do is hold the attention of the bosses and have at least some kind of strategy for surviving their attention, if it works, it works, you're a *tank.

*vet raids and a few vet dungeons are a different beast altogether

Kel · December 2017

MaleAmazon wrote: »

I dont think the problem is fake tanks in normal per se, it´s the fact that the behaviour is normalised, see broken windows theory;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

So these people might well go on to keep faketanking vet dungeons, and it spreads the notion that it is ok to cheat others in order to gain an advantage.

But then this is a game where people argue that Miat´s addon is quite acceptable since ZoS havent banned it

I´ll restate it; add an option to play with unbalanced groups, that way you know what youre getting into. It is explicitly stated in DF that the role picker is there to create balanced groups. So it´s against ToS to try and game it.

I should really work at ZoS

I know we had a little spat over this, but the unbalanced group idea....genius! What a great idea!
I would be 100% behind that idea. (For normals at least. As I've consistently said, vet is an entire other set of circumstances. I don't think anyone questions that.)

raj72616a · December 2017

Acrolas wrote: »

I couldn't even imagine there was a flip side to all this, until this morning.

I queued as a tank on an endgame tank. Get in there with three >50 characters, and there's another tank. I'm pretty sure he took the healer slot because we didn't have a healer.

And all that *** did for half the *** dungeon was taunt-steal and then run around. So I had to dump skill points on the spot to make a DPS/Healer support character (stamplar to the rescue) to make sure this *** got through the entire thing.

I had to pull the bourbon out after that one. And it left me firmer of the impression that if you really want to be a tank, just press tank. Because this guy wasn't going to do any damage or healing. I really do think being able to choose every role is more problematic than helpful.

an endgame tank, without using pierce armor, can still proc alkosh for aoe damage and debuff
can still heroic slash and use asylum twohanded and spam damage dealing ultimate instead of warhorn
can still heal the group with echoing vigor
can still bash boss and handle mechanics that a newbie tank would fail to notice
an endgame tank would still be effective even when there's a newbie tank spamming pierce armor on everything

and, most importantly, an endgame tank should be wise enough to just talk to the other person, and discuss about their job allocation.

Urza1234 · December 2017

MaleAmazon wrote: »

I dont think the problem is fake tanks in normal per se, it´s the fact that the behaviour is normalised, see broken windows theory;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

So these people might well go on to keep faketanking vet dungeons, and it spreads the notion that it is ok to cheat others in order to gain an advantage.

But then this is a game where people argue that Miat´s addon is quite acceptable since ZoS havent banned it

I´ll restate it; add an option to play with unbalanced groups, that way you know what youre getting into. It is explicitly stated in DF that the role picker is there to create balanced groups. So it´s against ToS to try and game it.

I should really work at ZoS

I honestly agree. Add true trinity queue in contrast to the any role '*** show' queue. Or heck, even add instead a 4DD only queue.

Who wants to guess how popular a 4DD queue would actually be? Anyone? Bueller?

Acrolas · December 2017

raj72616a wrote: »

and, most importantly, an endgame tank should be wise enough to just talk to the other person, and discuss about their job allocation.

And wise enough to know if the other person's not responding, to just jump off the waterfall, kill the dreugh, and end the dungeon run.

But you have to get to the waterfall first.

firedrgn · December 2017

No need on normal. I have not had a problem on vet.

Runefang · December 2017

Urza1234 wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

I dont think the problem is fake tanks in normal per se, it´s the fact that the behaviour is normalised, see broken windows theory;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

So these people might well go on to keep faketanking vet dungeons, and it spreads the notion that it is ok to cheat others in order to gain an advantage.

But then this is a game where people argue that Miat´s addon is quite acceptable since ZoS havent banned it

I´ll restate it; add an option to play with unbalanced groups, that way you know what youre getting into. It is explicitly stated in DF that the role picker is there to create balanced groups. So it´s against ToS to try and game it.

I should really work at ZoS

I honestly agree. Add true trinity queue in contrast to the any role '*** show' queue. Or heck, even add instead a 4DD only queue.

Who wants to guess how popular a 4DD queue would actually be? Anyone? Bueller?

I would join a 4DD queue if I was running random normals, I'd join it with my tank for the fun of it

starkerealm · December 2017

MaleAmazon wrote: »

I dont think the problem is fake tanks in normal per se, it´s the fact that the behaviour is normalised, see broken windows theory;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

So these people might well go on to keep faketanking vet dungeons, and it spreads the notion that it is ok to cheat others in order to gain an advantage.

But then this is a game where people argue that Miat´s addon is quite acceptable since ZoS havent banned it

I´ll restate it; add an option to play with unbalanced groups, that way you know what youre getting into. It is explicitly stated in DF that the role picker is there to create balanced groups. So it´s against ToS to try and game it.

I should really work at ZoS

You really, probably, shouldn't.

All Broken Windows based policies actually do is encourage punitive enforcement behavior.

It's easy to point to it and say, "look at all the enforcement we did, aren't we doing a great job?" But, the idea that "broken windows" are behind normalizing behavior was never confirmed. There's a very strong argument that any "success" a program like that enjoys is the result of confirmation bias.

So, here's the second problem. Broken Windows billed itself to a... let's call it, an enterprise, where enforcement was the metric for success. "Look at this high crime neighborhood, let's start arresting more people." "Look at all the arrests we've made, we must be doing a fantastic job!"

Thing is, you may have noticed, ZOS isn't in the law enforcement business. Their goal is to actually sell people on a product. In that context, Broken Windows is a terrible idea, because it alienates costumers.

I get that the idea is appealing. But you really do not want ZOS banning people over minor infractions. To be clear, we're not talking about them going after things like Miat or Bots. Broken windows looks at a situation like this and says, "Clearly, the problem is lazy writ crafter, AUI, and Wykidd's Framework! Let's start getting to work on those bans."

TheValar85 · December 2017

I'd like to add +2 options for Fake Healers and Fake DPS-as well.

Mayrael · December 2017

Can tank and healer have an option to report dpses? Very often when I used to do pledges my tank did 33-45% of total group damage so...

Goddess_Althena · December 2017

Can people stop complaining about this?
If you want to control your group, meet some people and put one together yourself.
If it weren't for fake tanks and healers you'd never queue at all.

Runefang · December 2017

Mayrael wrote: »

Can tank and healer have an option to report dpses? Very often when I used to do pledges my tank did 33-45% of total group damage so...

This is the real issue.

Completion isn't the only goal. Doing it quickly is also very important. So if I can be a real tank and take 20 minutes or fake tank and take 10 minutes then I know which I choose.

MaleAmazon · December 2017

You really, probably, shouldn't.

All Broken Windows based policies actually do is encourage punitive enforcement behavior.

It's easy to point to it and say, "look at all the enforcement we did, aren't we doing a great job?" But, the idea that "broken windows" are behind normalizing behavior was never confirmed. There's a very strong argument that any "success" a program like that enjoys is the result of confirmation bias.

I don´t subscribe to it as some kind of universal answer, just pointed out that idea since it had some superficial similarities; when you accept fake roles you might have someone going 'ok whatever, I am tired of fake tanks so I am not gonna care about someone else having a dungeon quest or whatever'.

And I never said I wanted ZoS to ban people for minor infractions.

What is special, and interesting, about computer games though IMO, is that behaviour that would in NO WAY be tolerated in other 'communities' or groups is tolerated. If you break rules, hurt the experience of others and insult them, normally you are shown the door. Try joining a gym, calling 3-4 people "****s" (pick your favourite insult), cutting in line to machines and generally being an ass. Someone will probably have a word with you.

It is IMO a problem that this is rarely enforced in computer games; it does have an effect on general behaviour IMO. But other communities I´ve been in have been far more toxic.

I don´t know what the right amount of policing and design change is, but it was a godsend early on when they got rid of the bots and goldspammers. Christ, the chat at ESO launch was just "PM me for REAL SECRET INFO ON EARNING GOLD" "PM me for REAL SECRET INFO ON EARNING GOLD" "PM me for REAL SECRET INFO ON EARNING GOLD" "PM me for REAL SECRET INFO ON EARNING GOLD" "PM me for REAL SECRET INFO ON EARNING GOLD" "PM me for REAL SECRET INFO ON EARNING GOLD".

Also you could not complete some dungeons because people/bots stood around killing every boss 0.5 seconds after it arrived.

When you don´t police a behaviour you show that you accept it. That´s how we got Miat´s addon. I don´t know how many use it, I just know that I´d like to see ZoS put some pressure on problem behaviour. Normal dungeon faketanking, ok, just keep an eye on it so it doesnt spread.

Epona222 · December 2017

Just had an unfortunate event in a dungeon, was putting a group together with friends and we all were fake-slotting to get dungeon finder to work - I was on a lvl 16 character however so we knew we'd get an easy dungeon, and both of the people I was pre-grouped with were able to solo any of the 1st zone normals, so that was fine.

Got a dps from queueing in group finder who died multiple times in BCI which is the dungeon we found ourselves in (only one in the group to die, seemingly every time a boss looked at them, even though they were far higher level than me) and was clearly angry at me (firing their staff at me at the end of the run) because I didn't heal them enough.

So... I am very sorry to that player that they were unable to stay out of the red to do a really easy dungeon with 2 high level characters who could solo it and a lowbie (me) - could have just stood at the entrance instead of dying all over the place and getting snarky about it.

I just think group finder ought to have an option, at least for normals, that indicates "we're good with the group we've got, ignore roles, we don't need a 4th member"

JamieAubrey · December 2017

So I queue up for a dungeon on my Templar who is a PvP Tank/Healer and get the Tank role I am a fake tank ?

I taunt the boss, hold block let the group kill adds use Repent and get stam back, self heal if I need too, taunt, R+R

Just because I'm not a Heavy Armour DK with 50K health doesn't mean I can't Tank just as well

OK I wouldn't get into a Trail group but all the same, I can tank just as well as I can heal, I can do both roles, hell I've done them both at the same time

THWIP71 · December 2017

Fake tanks are pretty easy to spot...

Merlin13KAGL · December 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

[snip] Why do people get so worked up about "fake tanks" when the real issue are the "fake DPS" that you see? If your DPS is high enough, you can blow through virtually every normal dungeon without a tank, without a healer. It's when the DPS are in 30K health heavy armor light-attacking with their bow that they start to notice problems.

Of course, I would never advocate such a draconian "solution" to the "fake DPS" problem, nor would I ever entertain this for this so-called problem of yours.

@code65536 is right.

These are normal dungeons, folks ... and the traditional roles don't matter. Players just want the complete and to move on to the next character.

And therein is the underlying problem.

Those roles should matter, even on norm, even at level 10 with not much more than puncture, grand healing, and the first skill of your class and weapon skills.

The zone restriction is already there, so it's not unreasonable for Banished Cells to be tuned to L10-L12, etc, but the roles should still matter. When they don't, the new players don't learn anything from it. They don't improve their role.

Level scaling + One Tamriel + CP's (if applicable) + nerfs + power creep have dumbed down overland and normal content so much that this is the result. Prior to all this, when the zones actually had some kind of bite to them, the four man dungeons were actually a useful tool to teach and gauge both individual and group capability.

"Anything goes," not because it's what players do on purpose, but rather because it's what the content allows leads to those L10 'doesn't-matter" runs producing CP690 "doesn't matter" players. And the problem is, once you roll over Vet, it does matter.

[edited to remove quote]

Merlin13KAGL · December 2017

sevomd69 wrote: »

Myyth wrote: »

This is what I think is the solution to the fake tank problem.

Have a "report player for not performing role" feature. You right click on player in the group listing and report them for skipping the queue as a dps. Quick and simple.

After a player receives a certain amount of reports (3 or 5?) from different players in different groups the ability to queue as tank and healer is locked for a set amount of time. (1 week?) This would force that player to only queue as DPS with that character until that time expires. Since it requires reports from different players in multiple different groups it should prevent abuse.

What do you guys think?
I think it would be awesome way bring some fairness back and punish players who think they are entitled to skip the queue.

So what would constitute "tanking" to you...that the player has S&B equipped?...that he/she has a taunt slotted?...that he/she is perma-blocking? And...if the player only fulfills one of those requirements, than is he/she a tank? If I slotted inner rage as a magsorc would I be a tank...or not?

So how about a player voted ranking system, of sorts. As simple as a +1 +0 -1 vote from each character to each character that added up over time.

You could upvote that fill in role here that kicked ass and took names. You could downvote the one that clearly grinded their way to max without having the first clue.

Over time, and several runs, the truth would show.

Epona222 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

[snip] Why do people get so worked up about "fake tanks" when the real issue are the "fake DPS" that you see? If your DPS is high enough, you can blow through virtually every normal dungeon without a tank, without a healer. It's when the DPS are in 30K health heavy armor light-attacking with their bow that they start to notice problems.

Of course, I would never advocate such a draconian "solution" to the "fake DPS" problem, nor would I ever entertain this for this so-called problem of yours.

@code65536 is right.

These are normal dungeons, folks ... and the traditional roles don't matter. Players just want the complete and to move on to the next character.

And therein is the underlying problem.

Those roles should matter, even on norm, even at level 10 with not much more than puncture, grand healing, and the first skill of your class and weapon skills.

The zone restriction is already there, so it's not unreasonable for Banished Cells to be tuned to L10-L12, etc, but the roles should still matter. When they don't, the new players don't learn anything from it. They don't improve their role.

Level scaling + One Tamriel + CP's (if applicable) + nerfs + power creep have dumbed down overland and normal content so much that this is the result. Prior to all this, when the zones actually had some kind of bite to them, the four man dungeons were actually a useful tool to teach and gauge both individual and group capability.

"Anything goes," not because it's what players do on purpose, but rather because it's what the content allows leads to those L10 'doesn't-matter" runs producing CP690 "doesn't matter" players. And the problem is, once you roll over Vet, it does matter.

[snip]

@Epona222, context...

It can be a game, a source of entertainment, and still allow people to have reasonable expectations regarding their play and that of their fellow player. If can be reasonable to be designed to allow people to improve at the game to the level they desire.

Having an in-game-designed "need" or requirement for this is the first step in that direction. I remember clearing the Crypt of Hearts II well below the proposed level at the time. It was a spoke to group ability and was a good thing.

And I'll save you the trouble of posting that "needs" are things like food, water, shelter... Again, context.

[edited to remove quote]

Epona222 · December 2017

Meh, if you enjoy it, play it - if you don't enjoy it, go find something else to do. Life is too short to spend time getting worked up about a game and how it could be fixed to suit you better.

Rianai · December 2017

MaleAmazon wrote: »

So these people might well go on to keep faketanking vet dungeons, and it spreads the notion that it is ok to cheat others in order to gain an advantage.

But then this is a game where people argue that Miat´s addon is quite acceptable since ZoS havent banned it

I´ll restate it; add an option to play with unbalanced groups, that way you know what youre getting into. It is explicitly stated in DF that the role picker is there to create balanced groups. So it´s against ToS to try and game it.

I should really work at ZoS

1. People queueing as tanks are providing an advantage (lesser queue time) for everyone, not only for themselves.
2. Nowhere in the game is stated, what exactly a tank or healer or dps is supposed to do. Yes, there is some very general description, like a healer is healing and a tank is keeping mobs away from his mates, but that's it. Accoding to the ingame description a player who is killing mobs before they can hurt anyone, is doing his job as a tank. A stam player who is using vigor is, well ... healing. Whether that is sufficient to complete certain content is a different topic. So players like those might be breaking other players expectations, but they aren't breaking any rules. There is no clear definition of a healer or tank, therefore there is no clear definition of a fake healer or fake tank.
3. It says, balanced groups are required for certain activities, but it doesn't specify for what activities (e.g. queues for PvP/BG have the same roles, yet nobody cares about them, because this content has completely different requirements). And a typical tank + healer + 2x dps setup might be required for vCoS, but it certainly isn't required nor optimal for something like nFG1. It is up to the players to figure out what works and what doesn't work.
4. Players queueing for content without being able to complete said content, does happen. Sometimes intentionally in hope of a carry, but most often those players just don't know any better. So there is no relation between "fake roles" and failed runs. From my experience, the the main reasons, why PuG runs fail, are low dps or players who don't know/do mechanics. Those two issues are often related, because longer fights mean, having to worry more about mechanics. Yes, "fake tanks" or "fake healers" can cause issues too, but again, it heavily depends on the content and the players themself, their role plays just a minor ... role.

To make it a bit more clear, how those points can work out in practise, 2 examples from yesterday:

normal Blessed Crucible
I'm on a low lvl healer, 2 max cp dps, tank is a low lvl templar with heavy armor, SnB, high health, everyone queued for 1 role only. Looks like a perfect grp setup, right? However the tank didn't used a single taunt during the whole dungeon run. Was he a fake tank, because he didn't used a taunt? Should he get punished for it? Punished for not knowing any better (pretty sure it was a new player)? And one of the dps players was a bow wielding light attack spamming pet sorc with clannfear ("tank pet") and matriach ("healing pet"). Was that a fake dps? No? Why not? He was clearly not very good at killing mobs, which is what he is supposed to do accoding to his choosen role, and with 600+ cp he should know better.
In harder content those 2 players could have caused major issues, but for this dungeon run it didn't matter, we completed it just fine with no deaths and in reasonable time.
Conclusion: For easier content it barely matters what players are playing, as long 1 or 2 have a tiny bit of understanding how to complete said content, so don't try to needlessly force players to play in a very specific way.

normal Crypt of Hearts 2
I queued as tank with a dps stam sorc with inner fire slotted. Got put into an almost done CoH2 run. The grp (all cp300+ if i remember correctly) was waiting right before Mezeluth (the boss that pulls everyone in and then oneshots those within 2 overlapping red circles). Didn't think much about why their tank left or got kicked and we started going for the boss right away. I taunted him of course, however most of the dmg comes from aoe and both dps players are taking tons of dmg, but the healer did a great job at keeping them alive. One of them got oneshot after the boss pulled us in, but got ressed and we kill the boss right when he started his second pull. People state in chat, how happy they are about this smooth boss kill. I'm thinking like "why would they even struggle with this boss", until i realize that i did almost 70% of grp dps, even though my dmg is far from great. We went on to kill the last boss and finished him off without any deaths (i did ~70% grp dps again). Everyone was happy again.
Now i used a taunt, which makes me a "real tank" accoding to some, but even if i hadn't use one, it wouldn't have mattered much, since the majority of those bosses' dmg is untauntable and what this group was lacking was clearly dmg and not dmg protection, since the healer was *** fine at healing through all dmg except oneshots. A 3rd dps player was a lot more beneficial for this run than a pure tank, because with very low dps they have to worry a lot more about Mezeluth's and Nerieneth's oneshot mechanics.
Conclusion: "Fake" roles can be better than "true" roles in certain situations and in the end all that matters is the successful completion of the dungeon.

Generally when pugging, give everyone a chance without expecting anything. It will save you from disappointment and might surprise you positively from time to time.

Merlin13KAGL · December 2017

Rianai wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

So these people might well go on to keep faketanking vet dungeons, and it spreads the notion that it is ok to cheat others in order to gain an advantage.

But then this is a game where people argue that Miat´s addon is quite acceptable since ZoS havent banned it

I´ll restate it; add an option to play with unbalanced groups, that way you know what youre getting into. It is explicitly stated in DF that the role picker is there to create balanced groups. So it´s against ToS to try and game it.

I should really work at ZoS

1. People queueing as tanks for roles they can actually perform are providing an advantage (lesser queue time ability to actuallly clear the content) for everyone, not only for themselves.

Fixed it for you.

Queuing quickly to a group that can't clear because someone is *** the GF waists 20+ minutes of your life due to cooldown or lack of clear. It's like saying people that don't know how to drive on the interstate will actually improve your drive to work.

Here's your 'logic' hard at work:
Next time you're at the airport, I hope the janitor queues as a pilot so you board the plane faster...you know, helping, and all.

4. Nowhere in the game is stated, what exactly a tank or healer or dps is supposed to do. Yes, there is some very general description, like a healer is healing and a tank is keeping mobs away from his mates, but that's it. Accoding to the ingame description a player who is killing mobs before they can hurt anyone, is doing his job as a tank. A stam player who is using vigor is, well ... healing. Whether that is sufficient to complete certain content is a different topic. So players like those might be breaking other players expectations, but they aren't breaking any rules. There is no clear definition of a healer or tank, therefore there is no clear definition of a fake healer or fake tank.

That so?

You can also ask in chat, and with the exception of 'tank,' which may be new terminology to anyone not familiar with MMO's, the other two are pretty intuitive.

Having the ability to do one aspect of another role is significantly different than specializing or focusing on that role. Please don't be intentionally obtuse.

And, FTR, I'm pretty sure this entire thread is not directed at low level new players that do not know any better - that's what experienced players offering good advice is for. I suspect it's about people that do know what the roles mean and simply are not set up for them. Even you know the difference.

Qbiken · December 2017

If "fake-roles" is such a huge problem for you people, get a premade group and do random normal instead of pugging it.

Ajaxduo · December 2017

So long as you perform your role, fake tanks aren't really a problem in normals. i.e. if I queue up as a fake tank with a friend I slot taunt (even though it isn't really required for normals, I do it to control the fight). The ironic truth is that fake tanks are actually increasing pop speed for everyone.

The same problem again for people that do this in veteran dungeons with no taunt, nothing (yes I know that some veteran dungeons can be solo'd and most even still rarely require Tanks). The real issue here is content gradually becomes too easy as players power increases, nullifying the need for a Tanks. Run a Vet with 3 DD's and a Healer, it's so much easier and faster.

So what really needs to be done to fix this issue:

Remove Role requirements from Normal dungeons, add a heal over time effect when in combat to the already existing group finder bolster. (The content is so incredibly easy, forcing the need for tanks is just pointless and draws out queue times needlessly).
Veteran Dungeon Bosses need to do far more single target damage, ignore shields/rolling with said attacks. This forces the need for a actively blocking/properly specced Tank as a DPS wouldn't be able to mitigate that damage and DPS effectively at the same time.
People will disagree with me on this point specifically but I still feel that ESO needs a quest to explain roles and mechanics before unlocking the group finder.
Some form of requirements to ensure a player is actually a tank, whether that is resistance values of a certain amount, slotted taunt, loadout or something. If said player removes/changes loadout during a dungeon, auto removal and look for a replacement.
ZoS needs to be direct with what their view of Dungeon content is, are Normal dungeons barebones and super easy? If so there is no point in role requirements for them. If they want roles to be relevant there then they need to increase the difficulty.
With every major content update preexisting content needs to be checked to ensure it remains relevant.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel

AhPook_Is_Here · December 2017

Myyth wrote: »

This is what I think is the solution to the fake tank problem.

Have a "report player for not performing role" feature. You right click on player in the group listing and report them for skipping the queue as a dps. Quick and simple.

After a player receives a certain amount of reports (3 or 5?) from different players in different groups the ability to queue as tank and healer is locked for a set amount of time. (1 week?) This would force that player to only queue as DPS with that character until that time expires. Since it requires reports from different players in multiple different groups it should prevent abuse.

What do you guys think?
I think it would be awesome way bring some fairness back and punish players who think they are entitled to skip the queue.

I think you could just vote kick him if the party was unhappy with the tank/healer/dps. I think if you just need 5 reports the players that will get the most role bans are DPS, I personally would report any DPS in a non-optimal config just for looking funny, even if they were pulling 30k dps. One build one role, that is my peace.

kongkim · December 2017

Myyth wrote: »

This is what I think is the solution to the fake tank problem.

Have a "report player for not performing role" feature. You right click on player in the group listing and report them for skipping the queue as a dps. Quick and simple.

After a player receives a certain amount of reports (3 or 5?) from different players in different groups the ability to queue as tank and healer is locked for a set amount of time. (1 week?) This would force that player to only queue as DPS with that character until that time expires. Since it requires reports from different players in multiple different groups it should prevent abuse.

What do you guys think?
I think it would be awesome way bring some fairness back and punish players who think they are entitled to skip the queue.

What if i am tanking with a ice staff. Am i a fake tank then?
What rules define if you are fake or not. Some people like to try funky builds out and still can do their roll. But most people will get mad as they dont play as they see a tank or something els for that matter.