Infinite Consuming Darkness Question/Discussion

Jrk · November 2017

I'm working on an idea for either a support or tank Nightblade, where the top priority is maintaining Consuming Darkness 100%. This could either be a support set, where you're providing heals, buffs (like spell cure), debuffs and stam/mag for the party, or as a tank alone.

Consuming Darkness costs 200 ultimate.
188 with Alteration Mastery
180 with Potenates
170 with Akaviri Dragonguard
168 with Alteration & Potenates
158 with Akaviri & Alteration
150 With Akaviri & Potenates

I like the 150 cost. Very easy to work with. As a tank, you could go Blood Spawn for more ult gen & some resists, Lord Warden for more reliable resists for you and allies; definitely would be magica based with stam going solely for reserve slash. For Support all I can think of that would fits as support would be engine guardian. The setup either way would have one bar with an asylum 2hander.

Consuming Darkness duration is about 15.5 seconds. Ultimate generated over that course of time:
Normal Ult gen - 45 (3 * 15)
Minor Heroism - 10 (1 ult * 10 procs)

55 ult from 25 procs. With Decisive, that's 25 40% chances to develop +1 ult. On average, we'll say it gives 10.

65 ult. Taking away from 150, You have to develop 85 ult in 15 seconds.

With Disciplined Slash, your Reverse Slash generates 14 Ult, 15 for perfect weapons. That equals out to 6.07 slashes needed with imperfect, 5.6 for a perfect weapon. With good decisive procs, it would be easy to maintain 6 slashes in 15 seconds with the possibility of only need 5 here & there.

The question is: Is this sort of setup, where you can have 100% uptime of Bolstering Darkness worth it? As a tank I feel you might be reaching too far to get the results desired, but the 30% damage reduction on top of major protection might outweigh it. Overall as a tank or support, is the infinite heals & damage reduction for the whole party worth it?

scipionumatia · November 2017

still need to watch out for 1 shot, also sustain will be bad, damage will be bad. that being said it could be fun

Psyonico · November 2017

You might be better off with a Warden, since ice storm follows you.

Jrk · November 2017

scipionumatia wrote: »

still need to watch out for 1 shot, also sustain will be bad, damage will be bad. that being said it could be fun

Lol, just trying to finagle the role of a tank. I did raid leads for years back in the WoW days, but that was from Vanilla to the End of Wrath of the Lich King. No Damage, little sustain; sounds like a tank. =p

I whipped something up that is dependent on raid heals, but the real thing that's gonna make this meta is the fact both my Stam & Magicka recovery are both 1337.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=34694

Dunno if it's really feasible, but in essence you should be able to maintain Bolstering Darkness 100%.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

Fyi, you forgot 20 ultimate for consuming a drink.
You also forgot transfer passive you can utilize every 4? Seconds.

Asylum 2h generates UPTO 14 ultimate. You won't be close to 14 for most of the fight.

raj72616a · November 2017

asylum 2H starts to give 1 ultimate when the target is down to 49% health, and that increases gradually to 14 only when the target is near 0%. so you only get high ultimate generation during execution phase.

Gilliamtherogue · November 2017

You'd have more effective Ultimate generation with Tava's Favor. Decisive weapons, Tava's + Blur, Alteration Master for sustain and ult cost reduction, and 2pc Bloodspawn for even more. I'd much rather use Aggressive Warhorn instead of Consuming Darkness though.

Jrk · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Fyi, you forgot 20 ultimate for consuming a drink.
You also forgot transfer passive you can utilize every 4? Seconds.

Asylum 2h generates UPTO 14 ultimate. You won't be close to 14 for most of the fight.

Very good points, support it is! ::tinker, tinker tinker::

Xvorg · November 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You'd have more effective Ultimate generation with Tava's Favor. Decisive weapons, Tava's + Blur, Alteration Master for sustain and ult cost reduction, and 2pc Bloodspawn for even more. I'd much rather use Aggressive Warhorn instead of Consuming Darkness though.

He can go faster with reviving barrier, also providing a decent shield to him and his allies (that lasts 30 secs)

Jrk · November 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You'd have more effective Ultimate generation with Tava's Favor. Decisive weapons, Tava's + Blur, Alteration Master for sustain and ult cost reduction, and 2pc Bloodspawn for even more. I'd much rather use Aggressive Warhorn instead of Consuming Darkness though.

He can go faster with reviving barrier, also providing a decent shield to him and his allies (that lasts 30 secs)

You mean replenishing barrier?

Replenishing Barrier: Invoke defensive tactics to protect yourself and nearby allies with wards that each absorb up to X damage. Each time a ward dissolves, you restore 6 Ultimate and X Magicka.

Only problem is it costs ultimate. If the goal is to provide consuming darkness as much as possible, it's not going to help.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You'd have more effective Ultimate generation with Tava's Favor. Decisive weapons, Tava's + Blur, Alteration Master for sustain and ult cost reduction, and 2pc Bloodspawn for even more. I'd much rather use Aggressive Warhorn instead of Consuming Darkness though.

Horn rotations are awesome, doable with 7-9 people and good communication. I'm just curious as to whether on top of 15% crit damage 100% of the time from 7-9 people, if major protection for everyone is possible as well from 1 or two people.

The Resto Staff ult provides it for one person for 5 seconds at a cost of 100 ult. The Warden Ult gives it to the party for 8 seconds at 200 ult. The sets are per individual on a proc. The nightblade is the only class capable of providing it to the entire party for +16 seconds at 200 ult. In your experience, have you heard of two nightblades doing rotations?

Trying to develop 150-200 ult in 17.5 seconds is a lot harder than doing the same in 35 seconds.

3 ult gen per second -- 105
2 ult gen per 3 seconds - 23.3

128 ult in 35 seconds with minor heroism. Potions wouldn't be able to sync well, but with a 150 ult cost one pot would cover it. However if two people are running this, chances are you're not running Akaviri & potenates together.

That's 52 ult procs, averaging 20 ult from decisive, ~148 ult total in 35 seconds.
____________

Looking at the set combos (Tava's Blood Spawn, Akaviri, potenates & Alteration) I'm actually thinking akaviri is not the way to go. It's great bonuses for a tank, max health & recovery is nice, but the healing taken bonus is a complete waste.

Given the value on available item slots, Potenates & Alteration seem like a good pair. Dragonguard may be a 15% reduction, but for 5 item slots, only affecting your ults & bad set bonus synergy, it's appears to not be worth it from a non tank role.

Potenates & Alteration will provide 16% off your ults, 6% off all other skills, a ton of magicka recovery (258), stam recovery (129) & spell crit; all for 8 item slots. This has the making of a healer set.

This leaves 3-4 slots open for whatever, including arena/trial weapons & monster sets. Blood Spawn seems like a good bet, but let me ask you: does it proc if you're shielded? For instance if I'm a healer with a bubble around me most of the fight, and blood spawn requires that I actually get hit (not my shield) to proc, then that 6% proc chance seems a lot less useful. If it does proc, then your stamina recovery gets balanced with your magicka.

...I'll work on this more later

Xvorg · November 2017

Jrk wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You'd have more effective Ultimate generation with Tava's Favor. Decisive weapons, Tava's + Blur, Alteration Master for sustain and ult cost reduction, and 2pc Bloodspawn for even more. I'd much rather use Aggressive Warhorn instead of Consuming Darkness though.

He can go faster with reviving barrier, also providing a decent shield to him and his allies (that lasts 30 secs)

You mean replenishing barrier?

Replenishing Barrier: Invoke defensive tactics to protect yourself and nearby allies with wards that each absorb up to X damage. Each time a ward dissolves, you restore 6 Ultimate and X Magicka.

Only problem is it costs ultimate. If the goal is to provide consuming darkness as much as possible, it's not going to help.

Ok, if the idea is to keep you and the group protected, I assume your are picking Bolstering Darkness instead on VoB, right? In that case the shield from barrier is a better protection, because 100% dmg reduction beats 70% dmg reduction.

Now, if the idea is going with the dmg morph, you will do it way better with EotS or even Ele Rage

Waffennacht · November 2017

I thought the cost of Panacea went up to 120

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · November 2017

Another thing to keep in mind is that defensive Ultimates like bostering darkness and barrier generally only impact six allies at a time. Unless you debuff the mob like with major maim, like Nova from a temp provides, six people is the max you will be providing major protection.

Jrk · November 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

Jrk wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You'd have more effective Ultimate generation with Tava's Favor. Decisive weapons, Tava's + Blur, Alteration Master for sustain and ult cost reduction, and 2pc Bloodspawn for even more. I'd much rather use Aggressive Warhorn instead of Consuming Darkness though.

He can go faster with reviving barrier, also providing a decent shield to him and his allies (that lasts 30 secs)

You mean replenishing barrier?

Replenishing Barrier: Invoke defensive tactics to protect yourself and nearby allies with wards that each absorb up to X damage. Each time a ward dissolves, you restore 6 Ultimate and X Magicka.

Only problem is it costs ultimate. If the goal is to provide consuming darkness as much as possible, it's not going to help.

Ok, if the idea is to keep you and the group protected, I assume your are picking Bolstering Darkness instead on VoB, right? In that case the shield from barrier is a better protection, because 100% dmg reduction beats 70% dmg reduction.

Now, if the idea is going with the dmg morph, you will do it way better with EotS or even Ele Rage

Before I agree on your ideology on damage mitigation, let me spell out the idea. The idea is to cover one function at it's core and provide support/heals in any way fashionable, using the least to get the most results; same as any competent build. The core function is 100% uptime of Consuming Darkness. I have come to terms one nightblade can't do it, but two can. Having DPS rotate it would require them to nerf their damage (with the goal of higher than normal ult regen) for the sake of Consuming Darkness. That leads me to believe a mirrored pair of nightblade healers could cover a trial group of 12 & rotate ults. That would provide the whole raid major protection at all times. That is.. if the fight is stable and you're not running around every 3 seconds. And even if you do have to shift locations, this setup can shift (e.g. where the 2nd NB lays his ult just north of the former) or move comepletely every 17.5 seconds.

As far as damage or further protection, I agree 100% is better than 70%, but then there is also time. Being healers, you're more than likely going to be able to keep yourself up with aoe heals you're already providing along with the major protection. The other factor of reducing damage in an instance is time. When a boss dies in 6 minutes vs 7, that is a lot less to heal. With that said, I opt for Veil of Blades. Now I haven't messed around with another NB to see what stacks, but I assume (like the update to caltrops) that if two NB's laid down refreshing paths they would stack?
___________________________
With covering raid heals & holding up VoB, what other AoE comes to mind from 2 nightblades aside from VoB & 2 refreshing paths?

Drain Power for a direct damage aoe hitter.
Necrotic or Mystic Orb
Dark Shades (not really aoe, but an aoe-ish maim with 4 of them)
__________________________
Then there is what you can individually bring that isn't need by both heals. For instance, only one would need to slot an assassination skill for the minor savagery. You could slot Soul Harvest for more ult gen, but you have the ult gen from heroism, decisive & transfer getting the job done without relying on kills for regen. (with pots to provide a quick boost if needed w/ a *** round of decisive procs.)

With that, would blur work in that instance?

With a double nightblade (for ult sake) healer setup, you could also try rolling double Panacea, but using the gear listed above (potenates/alteration) you would need to develop 99 ult in 10 seconds on top of healing everyone. Then again if possible, an instant cast of Regeneration, Blessing of Protection, and Steadfast Ward every 5 seconds would help. I'll stick to the consuming darkness idea. any other thoughts to help promote a NB healing duo?

Jrk · November 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Another thing to keep in mind is that defensive Ultimates like bostering darkness and barrier generally only impact six allies at a time. Unless you debuff the mob like with major maim, like Nova from a temp provides, six people is the max you will be providing major protection.

Really? Where does 'generally' fall into place? Are there exceptions?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · November 2017

@jrk as far as I know, there are no defensive buffs that you can have on more then six allies, I phrazed it like that to give myself some breathing room for the eventual "ACKCHYUALLY" nerds.

Jrk · November 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@jrk as far as I know, there are no defensive buffs that you can have on more then six allies, I phrazed it like that to give myself some breathing room for the eventual "ACKCHYUALLY" nerds.

Gotcha. I am also super analytical. If I'm going to theorycraft, I better know what the mechanics actually are or else I'm full of $hit. Like trying to practice science with philosophy; imagination and subjective thought are needed in the process, but shouldn't be the foundation of your premises.

Hmmm, so with that in mind. It would seem a rolling Consuming Darkness would only be applicable in 4 man trials then. A healing nightblade & a magblade? or is it just too much of a stretch for only 4 people?
________________

Would Light's Champion fall into the defensive buff category? And if that is how the mechanic works (a spell providing a max of 6 people defensive buffs) if you were to trigger a defensive proc from different spells, could you cover essentially 12? I.E.If it worked in that manner, you have 6 people standing on path at first, once they proc Light's Champion then you hit the other 6 with Sap Essence.

Now that I think of it more, you could pop Light's Champion, Sap Essence (or have path already running), have the major force & protection proc from the first heal tick at the initial cast of the ult, then with making sure it procs again at the end of the ult, you could sustain people for 9-10 seconds. With 2 healers rotating that, it cuts Ult costs to 99 ult needed (125*.79) over 18-20 seconds vs 10. going off 18 for overlap sake:

54 from normal gen (18 procs)
8 from transfer (4 procs)
12 from minor heroism (12 procs)
~13 from decisive (34 procs * .4)

Comes out to 87 ult...you can't rely on pots to fill the gap. You could coordinate to activate 2 synergies in 10 seconds, but that makes it more tricky than needed. Daedra kills would definitely fill the gap, but not reliable in every instance. I was hoping to avoid it, but 1 cast of Invigorating Drain per 18 seconds would do the trick, but if that was the case, you can do it without nightblades & have 2 casts in the rotation. Even if Light's Champion across skills is limited to 6 people, this setup in a 4 man might be worth it; the 2 other party members not having to slot Aggressive Horn & all 4 sustaining major force & protection. If you could have a TIGHT rotation & stretch it to 20 seconds, that gives you ~11 more ult and fills the gap (on a NB) without the need for vampirism.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · November 2017

@jrk i think you are trying to hard with something that is not useful in general, instead of trying to defensively buff your team, the most use can get out of your ulti is offensive buffs.

the resto ulti only hits 5 people, one per tick.

you got a reply from Gilliamtherogue in this thread, that is great, he is probably the best source of information you are looking for, you really ought to check his youtube channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1tq9cpMI7uzD7zRakve3nw, he litterally has hour long guides into all the skill lines in the game and spends more time in front of training dummy then the normal person does playing the game.

i would also recommend you rein in your speech, like saying you are "super analytical" and saying things like " science with philosophy" when it comes to a video game, it makes you look like you belong on on https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/ and you don't want to be on that.

Jrk · November 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@jrk i think you are trying to hard with something that is not useful in general, instead of trying to defensively buff your team, the most use can get out of your ulti is offensive buffs.

Fair.

the resto ulti only hits 5 people, one per tick.

That is ridiculously lackluster.

you got a reply from Gilliamtherogue in this thread, that is great, he is probably the best source of information you are looking for, you really ought to check his youtube channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1tq9cpMI7uzD7zRakve3nw, he litterally has hour long guides into all the skill lines in the game and spends more time in front of training dummy then the normal person does playing the game.

Dunno the weight of that statement, but it sounds like he's the ESO comparison to Diablo 3's Nubtro. I will definitely check that out, thanks. I do know it's common for players when they discover something advantageous to keep it to themselves; which makes sharing research somewhat of a struggle.

i would also recommend you rein in your speech, like saying you are "super analytical" and saying things like " science with philosophy" when it comes to a video game, it makes you look like you belong on on https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/ and you don't want to be on that.

Oh please don't put me on that level! That was more of a disclaimer to explain why I am the way I am, but I think tangential would have been a better word. I am super analytical, that doesn't make me smart; just focusing more on what's currently happening and not at all where I will be 5 years from now....it's kind of like the Ghost of Chistmas present. Come and know me better man!! You'll find I'm a decent tinkerer, but rather a fool.

The whole science comment was a quote from my dad (an MD) back in the day when I would often combine philosophy & science when discussing theories. Good sound observations lead to more accurate results. Poor observations lead to rationality & confirmation bias.

Xvorg · November 2017

Jrk wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Jrk wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You'd have more effective Ultimate generation with Tava's Favor. Decisive weapons, Tava's + Blur, Alteration Master for sustain and ult cost reduction, and 2pc Bloodspawn for even more. I'd much rather use Aggressive Warhorn instead of Consuming Darkness though.

He can go faster with reviving barrier, also providing a decent shield to him and his allies (that lasts 30 secs)

You mean replenishing barrier?

Replenishing Barrier: Invoke defensive tactics to protect yourself and nearby allies with wards that each absorb up to X damage. Each time a ward dissolves, you restore 6 Ultimate and X Magicka.

Only problem is it costs ultimate. If the goal is to provide consuming darkness as much as possible, it's not going to help.

Ok, if the idea is to keep you and the group protected, I assume your are picking Bolstering Darkness instead on VoB, right? In that case the shield from barrier is a better protection, because 100% dmg reduction beats 70% dmg reduction.

Now, if the idea is going with the dmg morph, you will do it way better with EotS or even Ele Rage

Before I agree on your ideology on damage mitigation, let me spell out the idea. The idea is to cover one function at it's core and provide support/heals in any way fashionable, using the least to get the most results; same as any competent build. The core function is 100% uptime of Consuming Darkness. I have come to terms one nightblade can't do it, but two can. Having DPS rotate it would require them to nerf their damage (with the goal of higher than normal ult regen) for the sake of Consuming Darkness. That leads me to believe a mirrored pair of nightblade healers could cover a trial group of 12 & rotate ults. That would provide the whole raid major protection at all times. That is.. if the fight is stable and you're not running around every 3 seconds. And even if you do have to shift locations, this setup can shift (e.g. where the 2nd NB lays his ult just north of the former) or move comepletely every 17.5 seconds.

As far as damage or further protection, I agree 100% is better than 70%, but then there is also time. Being healers, you're more than likely going to be able to keep yourself up with aoe heals you're already providing along with the major protection. The other factor of reducing damage in an instance is time. When a boss dies in 6 minutes vs 7, that is a lot less to heal. With that said, I opt for Veil of Blades. Now I haven't messed around with another NB to see what stacks, but I assume (like the update to caltrops) that if two NB's laid down refreshing paths they would stack?
___________________________
With covering raid heals & holding up VoB, what other AoE comes to mind from 2 nightblades aside from VoB & 2 refreshing paths?

Drain Power for a direct damage aoe hitter.
Necrotic or Mystic Orb
Dark Shades (not really aoe, but an aoe-ish maim with 4 of them)
__________________________
Then there is what you can individually bring that isn't need by both heals. For instance, only one would need to slot an assassination skill for the minor savagery. You could slot Soul Harvest for more ult gen, but you have the ult gen from heroism, decisive & transfer getting the job done without relying on kills for regen. (with pots to provide a quick boost if needed w/ a *** round of decisive procs.)

With that, would blur work in that instance?

With a double nightblade (for ult sake) healer setup, you could also try rolling double Panacea, but using the gear listed above (potenates/alteration) you would need to develop 99 ult in 10 seconds on top of healing everyone. Then again if possible, an instant cast of Regeneration, Blessing of Protection, and Steadfast Ward every 5 seconds would help. I'll stick to the consuming darkness idea. any other thoughts to help promote a NB healing duo?

Ok, a couple of things:

1- I undestand your idea of using Major protection and trying to keep it up 100% time, but at the same time, that dmgs your recovery a lot and stam/mag recovery is key for a tank to fulfill its work. Even with major protection 100% uptime, anytime a boss focus on another member of the party other than the tank, that would put him/her in danger. You must taunt and block, and focusing your build towards ulti cost reduction and glyphs to res recovery instead of res recovery and glyphs towards block reduction is a bad idea.

2- The synergy of CM (the one that heals), is the worst in the game. Period. Any synergy that requires you to be at low health to work is a bad design. I've said a couple of times that it should be changed for something that gives a better utility to the group.

3- My suggestion of barrier comes in the form of 2 helpful adds it gives: a) the ulti return per bubble dissolved and 2) the magicka return per magicka dissolved. That, and the magicka aid passive in the support line makes it a decent option for a build outside the box.

4- Now, the idea of Soul Harvest front bar is a good one. That's an old trick NBs used before incap get the stun. Each time you "kill" an enemy, you get 10 ulti back. If you combine that with decisive weapons, a set like shalk, and sap essence, you will build ulti quite fast, but that also implies you must run a sap tank build. Now, if you want to be loved by your group, go for Aggresive Warhorn

Gan Xing · December 2017

Jrk wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@jrk i think you are trying to hard with something that is not useful in general, instead of trying to defensively buff your team, the most use can get out of your ulti is offensive buffs.

Fair.

the resto ulti only hits 5 people, one per tick.

That is ridiculously lackluster.

you got a reply from Gilliamtherogue in this thread, that is great, he is probably the best source of information you are looking for, you really ought to check his youtube channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1tq9cpMI7uzD7zRakve3nw, he litterally has hour long guides into all the skill lines in the game and spends more time in front of training dummy then the normal person does playing the game.

Dunno the weight of that statement, but it sounds like he's the ESO comparison to Diablo 3's Nubtro. I will definitely check that out, thanks. I do know it's common for players when they discover something advantageous to keep it to themselves; which makes sharing research somewhat of a struggle.

i would also recommend you rein in your speech, like saying you are "super analytical" and saying things like " science with philosophy" when it comes to a video game, it makes you look like you belong on on https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/ and you don't want to be on that.

Oh please don't put me on that level! That was more of a disclaimer to explain why I am the way I am, but I think tangential would have been a better word. I am super analytical, that doesn't make me smart; just focusing more on what's currently happening and not at all where I will be 5 years from now....it's kind of like the Ghost of Chistmas present. Come and know me better man!! You'll find I'm a decent tinkerer, but rather a fool.

The whole science comment was a quote from my dad (an MD) back in the day when I would often combine philosophy & science when discussing theories. Good sound observations lead to more accurate results. Poor observations lead to rationality & confirmation bias.

Yea, Gilliamtherogue is a major community contributor and really understands the PvE aspect of this game. He is an excellent resource for info regarding PvE and tanking related aspects.

If you are doing trials, going for the 2 nb rotation would be important. Granted you both might not be running Tava's + Alteration + Blood spawn, but like you pointed out, there are other sets that grant Ult regen.

Perhaps if one is a magblade, they can run Shalk Exoskeleton for consistent regen with Alteration mastery or potentates and Bloodspawn, they can passively regen about 21 ult during that 32 second duration between using consuming darkness, so 21 ult from Shalk, 14 [+] ult from Blood spawn, 20 ult from potion, (heroic slash also gives minor heroism, but I don't think it stacks with shalk).

so within 32 seconds they passively have at least 55 ult basically given to them. Add in light attacks and the like they can get up to that 188 or 180 ult.

Either way, it will be difficult