PvP , what's the truth?

Sylosi · November 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

IMO, for all its issues, ESO is the best PVP MMO available

LOL, ESO PvP is mediocre at best, I mean for most of the game all you've had was Cyrodil (which as far as mass scale PvP goes is not bad), so on that alone the game has been lacking most of its life compared to many MMOs.

So now they eventually add small team instanced "competitive" PvP, that doesn't have any sort of meaningful matchmaking/rating/league system, but worse than that they make it 3 teams, which is beyond moronic, you are never going to get skilled, balanced, competitive PvP with that design, as "skilled competitive" small team PvP BG are an absolute joke, even by the low standards of MMORPGs.

GW2, WoW, EVE Online, etc all do PvP way better than ESO.

wazzz56 · November 2017

Surgee wrote: »

randomkeyhits wrote: »

FelixTheCatt wrote: »

I'm not new to the game but I'm not typically a pvp'er. I've considered giving it a try but can't seem to get a straight answer in game if its made up or not. Don't want to start if it's something that's going to turn out to be more hassle than its worth.

I find PvP (cyrodiil, IC) fun but then I find all the PvE stuff fun too. Don't have Morrowind so don't know if I'll find BGs fun yet.

As I find PvP fun even suffering the load screens I'd recommend it but thats just my subjective opinion, YMMV. Only you can really say if you'd enjoy it or not.

I do recommend waiting until after the LSOD fixes coming up. It does say a lot when I've committed to muscle memory the sequence quit game - pause - press X to start game - pause - press X, X, X, X to skip logos - pause - press X to get past morrowind screen - pause - press X to hit play and so on as I can now do it all without looking at the screen or wasting time/clicks......

Don't try. I bought Morrowind for the arenas and it made me realize more than anything else that I just need to follow the new most popular meta build or just fail miserably in the arena. In Cyrodil I can still shine every now and then when using my unique role-play build. Here's how it looks:
Cyrodil - 70% of players running same cancer meta builds but there is some chaos so you can still have fun at times
Arena - 100% of the players are sporting the same cancer meta builds. No creativity at all, just copy/paste from youtube and forums. This + the fact that you will be fighting against well-organized groups. Unless you're one of them, good luck.

you say 100% of people run the same cancer meta builds? Not one "meta" build on any of my pvp toons, none of the people I play with run "cancer meta" and we do fine, you can counter any play style etc etc
....perhaps, and I do not say this often, but maybe it is an l2p issue

Osteos · November 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

Since you are specifically asking about Battlegrounds...

Most of the early issues with Battlegrounds stemmed around the lack of leveled matchmaking and, of course, the fact that it was only No CP.

Current Issues
Pre-made Groups v PUGs - there's no filter for groups, and pre-made groups have a lot of advantages over PUGs no two ways about it. At least some of the leveled matchmaking got fixed, I believe.

CP-enabled problematic builds - CP PVP in Cyrodiil has a number of problematic builds, but in a small group envirnonment the "unkillable" tank builds are particularly hard to deal with since you don't have the option of calling your friendly neighborhood raid to deal with them. If you've ever dealt with a small group farming resources in Cyrodiil that feels really hard to pin down and kill, that's what's become more common in Battlegrounds and its just really annoying to deal with.

Lack of a No CP option - Players that like No CP PVP and players who like CP PVP generally don't like both. Which means that Battlegrounds alienated a bunch of players when it came out and has now aliented a bunch of players who used to play it. ZOS would offer both options, but its the same problem as Imperial City - its a small population to begin with and dividing it further makes it even smaller.

Small player base - this is caused by a number of issues, including the paywall of Morrowind, but it also causes a problem where pre-made groups wind up dominating and then come up in the roation again and again. It gets pretty discouraging getting stomped on by the same folks over and over, so it hurts player retention. Same thing for dealing with the same tanky players over and over again, which also hurts player retention.

Inability to choose which mode the player joins. This is because ZOS made these nice modes for us to play and enjoy, even though most players who probably choose Deathmatch most of the time given the choice.

So what could ZOS do to fix it?
Remove the Paywall and make it part of the base game - ZOS won't do this, and its entirely possible that most currently active players own Morrowind, I don't have the data on that.

Offer a No CP and CP option for battlegrounds - runs the risk of dividing a small player base further and thus emptying Battlegrounds more than it is, but also gives players the option to play how they want instead of one or the other.

Address the more problematic builds - ZOS is trying to do this with varying success. Most of the recent heavy armor nerfs and even the Morrowind sustain changes can really be seen as ZOS trying to grapple with the unkillable tanks doing lots of damage problem (though the Morrowind sustain changes were also aimed at overperforming PVE DPS, so I don't want to bash PVP here).

Give players the option to choose which mode(s) they play in. Not going to happen, because ZOS wants us playing all the modes, but we can dream.

Ultimately, I suspect that Battlegrounds, like the Imperial City DLC, is something that appeals to a relatively small amount of the player base. It has limited retention of players who don't enjoy it because of the various problems listed above and it struggles with the players for whom it does appeal because of the lack of options or problematic gameplay in No CP or CP PVP.

If you think Battlegrounds will appeal to you, go for it! Give it a try. It has its flaws like all games, but it can be very fun and enjoyable. If it doesn't appeal to you, there are plenty of other fun things about ESO. Find something that gives you enjoyment and do that.

It would also help if they added some type of tier mechanic so that groups that win multiple matches in a row advance to a new tier of combatants. That way the premade groups would move up to fight other premade groups and the pugs and more casual players could fight among themselves, giving them time to learn and improve.

VirtualElizabeth · November 2017

Sylosi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

IMO, for all its issues, ESO is the best PVP MMO available

LOL, ESO PvP is mediocre at best, I mean for most of the game all you've had was Cyrodil (which as far as mass scale PvP goes is not bad), so on that alone the game has been lacking most of its life compared to many MMOs.

So now they eventually add small team instanced "competitive" PvP, that doesn't have any sort of meaningful matchmaking/rating/league system, but worse than that they make it 3 teams, which is beyond moronic, you are never going to get skilled, balanced, competitive PvP with that design, as "skilled competitive" small team PvP BG are an absolute joke, even by the low standards of MMORPGs.

GW2, WoW, EVE Online, etc all do PvP way better than ESO.

I tried PVP in GW2 and WoW after I played in ESO. I have to say they do not hold a candle to ESO in terms of the "art" of PVP. There is nothing but pointing and clicking....pointing and clicking...pointing and clicking. In ESO you can block, dodge roll and using other skills as defensive measures which cannot do in GW2 or WoW. It felt like serious step backward. The dance of combat, which I like to call it, wasn't there. Nothing about it seem immersive to me whatsoever.

What is the number one problem with PVP in ESO? Too many people are ego driven - they can't handle the deaths, they can't handle getting ganked - they take it all WAYYY to personally. Let's face the facts - I suck...or maybe I am just mediocre and I have yet to get a "get good..loser" whisper that is reported throughout the thread. Makes me wonder if these types of whispers are actually prefaced by the ego-driven "Macro lovin' cheater" whispers some of my friends have gotten in the past.

My advice to anyone who enters Cyro: Check your ego at the door and just enjoyed the ride!

Kalante · November 2017

Surgee wrote: »

I've just returned to ESO and I've spotted a problem right away. After few games I've spotted the following:
- Almost everyone uses a 2h sword
- Almost everyone uses the same build
- Most of the time the winning team is made out of 2 unkillable templars and 2 unkillable dks. Any of them can burst you down in 2 seconds as well so it's some kind of God Mode.

Something's seriously wrong here.

you can thank wroble for that.

Sylosi · November 2017

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

IMO, for all its issues, ESO is the best PVP MMO available

LOL, ESO PvP is mediocre at best, I mean for most of the game all you've had was Cyrodil (which as far as mass scale PvP goes is not bad), so on that alone the game has been lacking most of its life compared to many MMOs.

So now they eventually add small team instanced "competitive" PvP, that doesn't have any sort of meaningful matchmaking/rating/league system, but worse than that they make it 3 teams, which is beyond moronic, you are never going to get skilled, balanced, competitive PvP with that design, as "skilled competitive" small team PvP BG are an absolute joke, even by the low standards of MMORPGs.

GW2, WoW, EVE Online, etc all do PvP way better than ESO.

I tried PVP in GW2 and WoW after I played in ESO. I have to say they do not hold a candle to ESO in terms of the "art" of PVP. There is nothing but pointing and clicking....pointing and clicking...pointing and clicking. In ESO you can block, dodge roll and using other skills as defensive measures which cannot do in GW2 or WoW. It felt like serious step backward. The dance of combat, which I like to call it, wasn't there. Nothing about it seem immersive to me whatsoever.

Well that is why I stayed away from mentioning combat, because to a large extent it is quite subjective, which is why numerous times I've heard basically the same line of "This game has the best combat in an MMORPG if only the devs did x, y & z to make PvP flourish" in nearly every MMORPG (ESO, GW2, Archeage, BDO, etc), so when comparing I stick to more objective things like what are PvP game modes are available in a game, what infrastructure do they have to facilitate good PvP, etc.

Hence why I consider ESO mediocre at best, Cyrodil isn't bad, but then that is all the game had most of its life so far, and BGs are absolutely the worst small scale implementation I have ever seen in an MMORPG, and does not compare to say GW2 that has spectator mode, leagues, a proper MMR system, a game that was virtually entirely balanced around the small scale PvP for 3 years, a level playing field in terms of gear, it even had ESL tournies for a long time, etc.

P.S - You can dodge roll in GW2 (that is what the endurance resource is for), you also actively block (as opposed to games where you have passive block% chance), just the blocking is specific weapon/utlity skills with cooldowns as opposed to anytime you have the resources available like in ESO. As for "Point and click" GW2 is sort of a halfway house some skills are tab targeted, others are aimed, and regardless you can block, dodge, blind, use evades, teleport, stealth in most cases, etc as defensive measures, you don't seem to have played GW2 that much...

Jpk0012 · November 2017

monktoasty wrote: »

This is why pvp is generally not practiced by a majority of players in all mmos..because it's full of arrogant elitists and children.

Pvp is not true end game..it's a feature for those extremely small amounts of people who like it. That's your end game and that's finexpensive. But don't trash on pvers who probably wouldn't mind pvp if it wasnt so mentally taxing dealing with immature people whispering how much u Sux

Small amount of people who like PvP?

Google Top Games by current player count and tell me how many PvE games made that list, and how many PvP games are on it. Your argument about PvE being end game is just not accurate. And I do not PvP in ESO, and will not until I have 600+ CP. That makes it end game.

VirtualElizabeth · November 2017

Sylosi wrote: »

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

IMO, for all its issues, ESO is the best PVP MMO available

LOL, ESO PvP is mediocre at best, I mean for most of the game all you've had was Cyrodil (which as far as mass scale PvP goes is not bad), so on that alone the game has been lacking most of its life compared to many MMOs.

So now they eventually add small team instanced "competitive" PvP, that doesn't have any sort of meaningful matchmaking/rating/league system, but worse than that they make it 3 teams, which is beyond moronic, you are never going to get skilled, balanced, competitive PvP with that design, as "skilled competitive" small team PvP BG are an absolute joke, even by the low standards of MMORPGs.

GW2, WoW, EVE Online, etc all do PvP way better than ESO.

I tried PVP in GW2 and WoW after I played in ESO. I have to say they do not hold a candle to ESO in terms of the "art" of PVP. There is nothing but pointing and clicking....pointing and clicking...pointing and clicking. In ESO you can block, dodge roll and using other skills as defensive measures which cannot do in GW2 or WoW. It felt like serious step backward. The dance of combat, which I like to call it, wasn't there. Nothing about it seem immersive to me whatsoever.

Well that is why I stayed away from mentioning combat, because to a large extent it is quite subjective, which is why numerous times I've heard basically the same line of "This game has the best combat in an MMORPG if only the devs did x, y & z to make PvP flourish" in nearly every MMORPG (ESO, GW2, Archeage, BDO, etc), so when comparing I stick to more objective things like what are PvP game modes are available in a game, what infrastructure do they have to facilitate good PvP, etc.

Hence why I consider ESO mediocre at best, Cyrodil isn't bad, but then that is all the game had most of its life so far, and BGs are absolutely the worst small scale implementation I have ever seen in an MMORPG, and does not compare to say GW2 that has spectator mode, leagues, a proper MMR system, a game that was virtually entirely balanced around the small scale PvP for 3 years, a level playing field in terms of gear, it even had ESL tournies for a long time, etc.

P.S - You can dodge roll in GW2 (that is what the endurance resource is for), you also actively block (as opposed to games where you have passive block% chance), just the blocking is specific weapon/utlity skills with cooldowns as opposed to anytime you have the resources available like in ESO. As for "Point and click" GW2 is sort of a halfway house some skills are tab targeted, others are aimed, and regardless you can block, dodge, blind, use evades, teleport, stealth in most cases, etc as defensive measures, you don't seem to have played GW2 that much...

Nope, didn't play much at all - I asked about the dodge rolling and I was told it wasn't an option like in ESO. I felt horribly stifled by the way the controls worked plus the questing was just awful. I like a good story line. Funny thing is, the only one that held my interest was the circus story line haha. I chose that option figuring it would be really bad and I was pleasantly surprised.

ak_pvp · November 2017

I like ESOs PvP system. Highly positioning and combo based, allowing a decently high skill cap, no QTE combat and rather open, your class can be nearly any role, wear any gear. (Theoretically anyway) Its non grindy, and not P2W.

I hate the balancing and lack of care for cyro/general PvP. The communication before this month was also pretty horrendous.

Tannus15 · November 2017

Jpk0012 wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

This is why pvp is generally not practiced by a majority of players in all mmos..because it's full of arrogant elitists and children.

Pvp is not true end game..it's a feature for those extremely small amounts of people who like it. That's your end game and that's finexpensive. But don't trash on pvers who probably wouldn't mind pvp if it wasnt so mentally taxing dealing with immature people whispering how much u Sux

Small amount of people who like PvP?

Google Top Games by current player count and tell me how many PvE games made that list, and how many PvP games are on it. Your argument about PvE being end game is just not accurate. And I do not PvP in ESO, and will not until I have 600+ CP. That makes it end game.

You're ignoring the context.

Lots of people like competitive games. Lots of people don't consider MMO's to be competitive environments.
I play starctaft 2 1v1 ranked and cs:go for competition.
Because ranks, ladders and balance matter to me.

I want to play vs people of roughly my own skill level and I want each game to be it's own "thing". you don't go into a game of SC2 with better units because you spent more time getting exactly the right traits on your Zealots or you have upgraded your Marines to gold.

As other people have pointed out this is the huge issue with battlegrounds. the utter lack of match making and infrastructure.

Surgee · November 2017

wazzz56 wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

randomkeyhits wrote: »

FelixTheCatt wrote: »

I'm not new to the game but I'm not typically a pvp'er. I've considered giving it a try but can't seem to get a straight answer in game if its made up or not. Don't want to start if it's something that's going to turn out to be more hassle than its worth.

I find PvP (cyrodiil, IC) fun but then I find all the PvE stuff fun too. Don't have Morrowind so don't know if I'll find BGs fun yet.

As I find PvP fun even suffering the load screens I'd recommend it but thats just my subjective opinion, YMMV. Only you can really say if you'd enjoy it or not.

I do recommend waiting until after the LSOD fixes coming up. It does say a lot when I've committed to muscle memory the sequence quit game - pause - press X to start game - pause - press X, X, X, X to skip logos - pause - press X to get past morrowind screen - pause - press X to hit play and so on as I can now do it all without looking at the screen or wasting time/clicks......

Don't try. I bought Morrowind for the arenas and it made me realize more than anything else that I just need to follow the new most popular meta build or just fail miserably in the arena. In Cyrodil I can still shine every now and then when using my unique role-play build. Here's how it looks:
Cyrodil - 70% of players running same cancer meta builds but there is some chaos so you can still have fun at times
Arena - 100% of the players are sporting the same cancer meta builds. No creativity at all, just copy/paste from youtube and forums. This + the fact that you will be fighting against well-organized groups. Unless you're one of them, good luck.

you say 100% of people run the same cancer meta builds? Not one "meta" build on any of my pvp toons, none of the people I play with run "cancer meta" and we do fine, you can counter any play style etc etc
....perhaps, and I do not say this often, but maybe it is an l2p issue

Pretty sure it's not l2p issue. I'm doing very well with my own build I came up with, considering the role I chose. What I'm deacribing is what I've seen in so far 12 matches I've played on Xbox EU. Maybe I've blown it out of proportions. It's not 10 out of 10 people running 2h cancer builds and using exactly same skills.. it's 9 out of 10.

Good for you and your friends. Keep it up.

Betsararie · November 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

I like ESOs PvP system. Highly positioning and combo based, allowing a decently high skill cap, no QTE combat and rather open, your class can be nearly any role, wear any gear. (Theoretically anyway) Its non grindy, and not P2W.

I hate the balancing and lack of care for cyro/general PvP. The communication before this month was also pretty horrendous.

That's good.

For the people that don't like it, in most circumstances they didn't find success in it themselves, and therefore react in hate. I guess some started attacking me here toward the end because I'm good, lol go figure.

I definitely agree the combat is overall enjoyable and skill-based.

Mannix1958 · November 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

Your first post was a well thought argument...you should have stopped.

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

Your first post was a well thought argument...you should have stopped.

I don't really need to stop everything I said is right... there is no debating that whatsoever. If you don't agree with anything I have said thus far, you are the one is actually wrong

See this is it....

Your first argument was solid...then you devolved into arrogance and talking down to any who do not agree with you

Betsararie · November 2017

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

Your first post was a well thought argument...you should have stopped.

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

Your first post was a well thought argument...you should have stopped.

I don't really need to stop everything I said is right... there is no debating that whatsoever. If you don't agree with anything I have said thus far, you are the one is actually wrong

See this is it....

Your first argument was solid...then you devolved into arrogance and talking down to any who do not agree with you

This was not my intention. My intention is to be honest, and insightful when necessary.

I feel that was accomplished.

KingMagaw · November 2017

BG are a bad joke and poorly designed.

NO CP mode taken away was a bad move which leaves new players to ESO highly disadvantaged and segregates the community.

Can't choose game mode - poorly designed.

Matching teams is poorly designed.

Mannix1958 · November 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

Your first post was a well thought argument...you should have stopped.

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

Your first post was a well thought argument...you should have stopped.

I don't really need to stop everything I said is right... there is no debating that whatsoever. If you don't agree with anything I have said thus far, you are the one is actually wrong

See this is it....

Your first argument was solid...then you devolved into arrogance and talking down to any who do not agree with you

This was not my intention. My intention is to be honest, and insightful when necessary.

I feel that was accomplished.

I do think you were being honest in presenting your side and at times I agree that several of your points are valid. I don't think it needs to be expressed in a manner that tries to belittle those who dislike PvP or disagree. How can you convince those who see otherwise if you place them in a position where they have a reason not to accept what you say due to some backhanded insult.

Betsararie · November 2017

KingMagaw wrote: »

BG are a bad joke and poorly designed.

NO CP mode taken away was a bad move which leaves new players to ESO highly disadvantaged and segregates the community.

Can't choose game mode - poorly designed.

Matching teams is poorly designed.

What we really need is deathmatch. If they could just implement deathmatch only, I think a lot of people would be happy.

BGs could've been about fun small scale brawls and fights, but instead they made it about running from flag to flag like a little baby.

Plus, if they could implement a simple league system, I think a lot of people would be happy.

Mannix1958 · November 2017

I'd love to see small dueling arenas available for homes.

Allow 2v2 up to 4v4 including any combination that does not exceed 8 players. Even 1v7 if desired. No rewards or boards...just treated like duels. Bragging rights and maybe include an accomplishment or two.

It could be used as a training area for guilds to prep for BG or Cyrodil. Others could watch and make suggestions even.

Betsararie · November 2017

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

Your first post was a well thought argument...you should have stopped.

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

Your first post was a well thought argument...you should have stopped.

I don't really need to stop everything I said is right... there is no debating that whatsoever. If you don't agree with anything I have said thus far, you are the one is actually wrong

See this is it....

Your first argument was solid...then you devolved into arrogance and talking down to any who do not agree with you

This was not my intention. My intention is to be honest, and insightful when necessary.

I feel that was accomplished.

I do think you were being honest in presenting your side and at times I agree that several of your points are valid. I don't think it needs to be expressed in a manner that tries to belittle those who dislike PvP or disagree. How can you convince those who see otherwise if you place them in a position where they have a reason not to accept what you say due to some backhanded insult.

That isn't it. I don't belittle people, I have great respect for people. I respect people.

What I say is merely the truth, so if someone wants to disagree with the truth, well then naturally that can't end well.

I guess the takeaway is it would've been easier if whoever it was agreed.

Bam_Bam · November 2017

Mannix1958 wrote: »

I'd love to see small dueling arenas available for homes.

Allow 2v2 up to 4v4 including any combination that does not exceed 8 players. Even 1v7 if desired. No rewards or boards...just treated like duels. Bragging rights and maybe include an accomplishment or two.

It could be used as a training area for guilds to prep for BG or Cyrodil. Others could watch and make suggestions even.

Amen. I think the fighters guildhall in Mournhold would make an excellent home / guild hall for PvPers / PvP guilds

GrigorijMalahevich · November 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

IMO, for all its issues, ESO is the best PVP MMO available

Agree, brother!

The only MMO where PvP was more intense was only Ultima Online as when you die, all of your gear could be looted from your body...

GrigorijMalahevich · November 2017

Tannus15 wrote: »

Jpk0012 wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

This is why pvp is generally not practiced by a majority of players in all mmos..because it's full of arrogant elitists and children.

Pvp is not true end game..it's a feature for those extremely small amounts of people who like it. That's your end game and that's finexpensive. But don't trash on pvers who probably wouldn't mind pvp if it wasnt so mentally taxing dealing with immature people whispering how much u Sux

Small amount of people who like PvP?

Google Top Games by current player count and tell me how many PvE games made that list, and how many PvP games are on it. Your argument about PvE being end game is just not accurate. And I do not PvP in ESO, and will not until I have 600+ CP. That makes it end game.

You're ignoring the context.

Lots of people like competitive games. Lots of people don't consider MMO's to be competitive environments.
I play starctaft 2 1v1 ranked and cs:go for competition.
Because ranks, ladders and balance matter to me.

I want to play vs people of roughly my own skill level and I want each game to be it's own "thing". you don't go into a game of SC2 with better units because you spent more time getting exactly the right traits on your Zealots or you have upgraded your Marines to gold.

As other people have pointed out this is the huge issue with battlegrounds. the utter lack of match making and infrastructure.

SC2 is missing its social part as BW and War3 had and which is massively represented in ESO. If ESO had proper laddering (1x1) system then it would force even more balancing issues and more time investment from developers.

ESO is a MMORPG and each player decides on his own when he is ready for PvP...

What is your league in SC2? I had Masters in WoL, HoTS and LotV and highest league in closed and open beta.

teiselaise · November 2017

You guys saying people don't like pvp because they are bad, please shut up, a skillcap is potentially "endless" in pvp, you can do vmal perfect, I have not heard of anyone doing that in any trial, any patch yet, wich means that while pve has a set skillcap, it has not been reached yet wich means there's room to improve at both sides.

You could also say it like this: getting global elite in csgo is just as hard as beating dark souls no death in a specific time, you can then increase the rank/ decrease the time but the 2 players will be just as skilled, just at different things, the illusion pvp creates that makes it look harder is the non defined skill ceiling, but if no one have hit the skill ceiling in pve released the same day as pvp, both groups are equal.

This are just my thoughts, correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

teiselaise · November 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

You are greatly exaggerating both the difficulty of PVP and the ease of PVE. "Never dodge roll" in PVE? Really? It's literally the only way to not die in vCoS. And how is that a metric for difficulty anyway?

More movement and reflexes? Than the twins in vMoL? Than vICP warden dusk? Not from what I've seen.
I'm not a dedicated PVP'er but I've done my share. Some people will smash me every time. Enough of the time it goes the other way however.
I hate to say it but breaking line of sight, coordinating your ults and sticking together to share vigors isn't exactly black magic and it's certainly easier than passing the pinion around in vWGT.

Most of the time PVP is about threat assessment. Can you take that player / group or should you run and hide? Can you bait out a few people from the zerg so you can kill them or not?

To which I will rebut: go solo in Cyro and take on a group of 5 good CP 690s 1v5. Go on.

According to you PvP isn't that hard, so that must be easy right? It's not that hard, taking on a group 1v5 is about on the level of the warden dusk fight, amirite? LUL. Because it's so hard to jump in the blue thing on the ground. Yup!

It's not like taking on 5 good players 1v5 is next to impossible, right? No they're about the same.

I challenge you to beat all of the best players in the game in a duel. That's right, go and duel every single player who is good and beat them all. PvP is pretty easy right, so it shouldn't be that hard. Never mind that nobody can beat every other good player in a duel!

Yup, zerging doesn't require skill but being good in PvP does. Just like how Pv Door doesn't require skill. Solo play, duels, and small scale is where the skill is.

I challenge you to coordinate a group to get the maximum possible score in every trial

wazzz56 · November 2017

@Surgee
12 matches is in no way a good indicator.... just saying

NinchiTV · November 2017

Its really that bad..PvP will continue to be unplayable for another week on X1, PC and PS are now fixed after a month of the load screens. For a lot of people pvp is all they do and is their main game, so for it to literally be unplayable PLUS to be a sub member to be PAYING for this to not work? ya people are pissed.

Larry78 · November 2017

ESO PVP, talking about Cyro is very bad, so bad.
Unbalanced madness with lags and lags only and it can be nice (as idea) 1 day but no 1 knows when.Current eso pvp is everything but sure not end game content....

Surgee · November 2017

wazzz56 wrote: »

@Surgee
12 matches is in no way a good indicator.... just saying

True to an extent. If in 12 matches in a row, I've encountered same team setups, with what looked like the same builds and tactics (not same people) then something must be really wrong or I'm the luckiest/unluckiest person in the world and I should start playing Lotto.

burglar · November 2017

There are a lot of angry people out there when it comes to the pvp in ESO, and it has a pretty long back story which might represent some of the angst that still exists out in the pvp ether.

ESO was originally represented as a game that was going to be at least moderately focused on PvP, and advertised to be conceptually similar to Dark age of camelot and it's RvR (pvp) features, albeit indirectly. All of this was really promising for those of us who loved Dark age of camelot, because (the current director of ESO) Matt Firor was not only a designer, producer, and executive producer of Dark age of camelot, but also a co-founder of one of the two companies that merged to form mythic entertainment. Although, he left when EA bought mythic. Needless to say, he was instrumental in the success of Dark age, and a lot of us who played Dark age thought we were getting the combination of ESO and Dark age, or at least a damn good game.

That promise grew further when it was announced that imperial city was going to be the first expansion; everything seemed focused on pvp, or that it received at least a healthy amount of attention. However, (from what I understood) some poeple found out how to manipulate certain data files, which resulted in a bunch of cheating, leaving ZOS with no choice but to move all elements of the game to server side and revamping cyrodiil. With this, the notorious pvp lag started, and then got worse, and worse. I was hopeful for the rest of the justice system features to be implemented, but even those were cancelled. To me, this signified the end of their interest in adding features for pvp; maybe the risks just werent worth the rewards for pvp anymore?

From there it's gone downhill. First they released proc sets; then they released battlegrounds, which are proving to shrink numbers in cyrodiil, which isn't entirely bad as there's less lag now. But, they aren't really focusing on battlegrounds, either, and much less cyrodiil. Now their focus seems to be all about PvE and instanced dungeons, which from my understanding, isn't of much interest to the pvp community. Any changes to PvP seem to only be changes that will also improve the experience for PvE players, which I am guessing is the larger population.

To be frank, pvp is still fun if you're willing to deal with some things about it, which works for the pvp crowd; most people who play it favor game play that is challenging and requires versatility/adaptability.

burglar · November 2017

Sylosi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

IMO, for all its issues, ESO is the best PVP MMO available

LOL, ESO PvP is mediocre at best, I mean for most of the game all you've had was Cyrodil (which as far as mass scale PvP goes is not bad), so on that alone the game has been lacking most of its life compared to many MMOs.

So now they eventually add small team instanced "competitive" PvP, that doesn't have any sort of meaningful matchmaking/rating/league system, but worse than that they make it 3 teams, which is beyond moronic, you are never going to get skilled, balanced, competitive PvP with that design, as "skilled competitive" small team PvP BG are an absolute joke, even by the low standards of MMORPGs.

GW2, WoW, EVE Online, etc all do PvP way better than ESO.

You're talking about content and features which take time to implement and improve. So, it isn't really fair to compare the number and quality of features of software that are at different points in their development life cycle. Doing so is like saying that an orange is better than an apple, without mentioning that the orange is ripe and the apple is not.