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Tired of the MMO role trinity?
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »This is not an Action Combat MMO. If this game would have been Dark Souls combat and game mechanics then YES, go for it, remove any and all classes and have the game feel more like actual medieval Fantasy combat. BUT, THIS IS NOT an ACTION COMBAT MMO, you can't have that kind of gameplay in a tab target environment. For big obvious reasons. Watch this if you don't know the difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc
Changing ESO to the point where we could remove Roles like that would be making an entirely new game and it would not be ESO as we know and love. As well the roles are there for a reason, calling them other things will not change what they are in its base form. TANK, DPS, HEALER. You can call it Paladin, Warrior/Warlock and Cleric and they would perform the same roles and have the same purpose in a group. We generalize to make an easier identification, generalization for identification is something we humans do ALL the time, its a very very very common thing to do, and it serves a purpose, its not just for the heck of it. So try as you wish to remove the roles, but people will call them out and make them on their own and then ask for someone to put them back in to make it easier for them.
I agree with all that, I'm certainly not saying to do this in ESO, its more commentary on the genre generally.
And yes humans like predictability wrapped up in small boxes, yet somehow its the ground breaking outside of the box stuff that captures our imagination.
I don't want a change for the sake of it, rather to see MMO gaming move on. Wow genuinely does a good job with the trinity but its not the only design choice.
Even if thsi thread was created as commentary on the genre the Paul's comment still applies since he was speaking to the genres.0 -
THWIP71✭✭✭✭I suppose they could add "useless XP-leeching wallflower" to the mix....there seems to be an awful lot of them.
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Jpk0012✭✭✭✭Yes - Move from specific roles to everybody being a jack-of-all-tradesI would love to see the tank role vanish. Its utterly useless, and a bit of a silly concept. They are not a threat so why would a boss attack some chump in a metal outfit swinging a wet noodle.1
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Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of rolespaulsimonps wrote: »This is not an Action Combat MMO. If this game would have been Dark Souls combat and game mechanics then YES, go for it, remove any and all classes and have the game feel more like actual medieval Fantasy combat. BUT, THIS IS NOT an ACTION COMBAT MMO, you can't have that kind of gameplay in a tab target environment. For big obvious reasons. Watch this if you don't know the difference.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc
Changing ESO to the point where we could remove Roles like that would be making an entirely new game and it would not be ESO as we know and love. As well the roles are there for a reason, calling them other things will not change what they are in its base form. TANK, DPS, HEALER. You can call it Paladin, Warrior/Warlock and Cleric and they would perform the same roles and have the same purpose in a group. We generalize to make an easier identification, generalization for identification is something we humans do ALL the time, its a very very very common thing to do, and it serves a purpose, its not just for the heck of it. So try as you wish to remove the roles, but people will call them out and make them on their own and then ask for someone to put them back in to make it easier for them.
I agree with all that, I'm certainly not saying to do this in ESO, its more commentary on the genre generally.
And yes humans like predictability wrapped up in small boxes, yet somehow its the ground breaking outside of the box stuff that captures our imagination.
I don't want a change for the sake of it, rather to see MMO gaming move on. Wow genuinely does a good job with the trinity but its not the only design choice.
Even if thsi thread was created as commentary on the genre the Paul's comment still applies since he was speaking to the genres.
Your point? My comment still applies too.0 -
Sotha_Sil✭✭✭✭✭
✭No - I'm happy with the current 3 main rolesHonestly, I hate that kind of gameplay where you must heal and dps at the same time in pvp. I would rather just be a powerful restoration healer/master in Elder Scrolls and that's it.Edited by Sotha_Sil on November 27, 2017 9:33PMRestoration is a perfectly valid school of magic, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise! - Spells and incantations for those with the talent to cast them!1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would love to see the tank role vanish. Its utterly useless, and a bit of a silly concept. They are not a threat so why would a boss attack some chump in a metal outfit swinging a wet noodle.
This is a fabulous idea. Let the boss agro on whoever and one shot them and anyone near them.
That adds some challenge to the fight. Lol. Fortunately Zos has enough sense to keep the tank in the game.Edited by idk on November 27, 2017 9:37PM3 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No - I'm happy with the current 3 main rolesIf you want a clusterf... where people play next to eachother instead of with eachother, sure - drop the trinity.
Now, if you wanted to add more specialized roles to the trinity I guess that could work. DCUO for example had 4 core roles instead of 3. You had tanks (who tanked), healers (who healed), damage dealers (who pew pewed) and you had controllers who generated energy needed for everyone else to use their abilities. I really enjoyed the system and it worked very well.Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on November 27, 2017 9:57PMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.1 -
phairdon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I solo so couldn't care lessThe other MMO I play does not have a trinity. The trinity is still kind of foreign to me, even after 3+ years of game play.
And what MMO would that be? Toon Town?It's a completely different game, but have anyone tried Vermintide? There are few characters that feels different between them and basically EVERY moment in the game is a 4people Dungeon.
Haven't played that game, but checked out some gameplay videos. When everything can be one-shot (except bosses) no roles are really needed. (It's a Melee/FPS game) Also, EVERY moment is a 4-player dungeon? No thanks We all know how PUGS are. I don't want to have to depend on 3 other random players to be able to play.
Every MMO I've played had the Tank/DPS/Healer Trinity. One game, Rift, even added a 4th role (support). There's no way I can see any MMO NOT have the trinity in some form.
Everquest
DAoC
World of Warcraft
Secret World
SWTOR
Rift
Lineage II
Archeage
Allods Online
Even certain MMOBAs use the "trinity"
Lawbreakers:
Tanks - Titan, Juggernaut
DPS - Vanguard, Assassin, Gun-slinger
Healer - Battle Medic
Support - Enforcer, Wraith, Harrier
Overwatch:
Offense
Defense
Tank
Support
GW2. Not that you deserve a polite answer.Edited by phairdon on November 27, 2017 10:06PMYour immersion is breaking my entitlement. Buff Sorc's. Darkshroud the cremator Death by furRubeus BlackFluffy knight BladesThe Fat PantherPsijic Fungal SausageFlesheater the VileCaspian Rafferty FernsbyArchfiend Warlock PiersThe Black BishopEvil Wizard Lizard (EU)Neberra Vestige Fajeon (EU)Salanis Deathstick (EU)Blood Mage Alchemist (EU)0 -
iiYuki✭✭✭✭✭No - It's not the best idea but still better than anything elseWhat to though? Ideally there would be more choices but in the end it will always be derivatives of the main 3."Play how you want... unless its not how we intended you to play in which case we'll nerf it".
- ZO$
- The ZO$ Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmUJWP_ebsQ0 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of rolesI would love to see the tank role vanish. Its utterly useless, and a bit of a silly concept. They are not a threat so why would a boss attack some chump in a metal outfit swinging a wet noodle.
This is a fabulous idea. Let the boss agro on whoever and one shot them and anyone near them.
That adds some challenge to the fight. Lol. Fortunately Zos has enough sense to keep the tank in the game.
That's a very limited way of thinking about how a game *could* be designed though.
Whoever said that it was players that came up with the trinity is both correct and yet wrong at the same time. If you have an enemy who can hit really hard in a game then you're going to need a player who can take that damage and survive, hence the tank is born. Then they need a healer to give them alive, so the next pillar of the trinity is formed. As neither of those two can do damage any more do you need DPS. Now we have a full trinity. The trinity was ultimately born of game design, not player approach.
But what IF a game wasn't designed so that Boss A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, X, Y, Z had to have attacks which would one-shot anybody who wasn't tanky? What if all team members were able to equally contribute to the group's survival and not just a tank or healer?2 -
PlagueSD✭✭✭✭✭
✭No - I'm happy with the current 3 main rolesThe other MMO I play does not have a trinity. The trinity is still kind of foreign to me, even after 3+ years of game play.
And what MMO would that be? Toon Town?It's a completely different game, but have anyone tried Vermintide? There are few characters that feels different between them and basically EVERY moment in the game is a 4people Dungeon.
Haven't played that game, but checked out some gameplay videos. When everything can be one-shot (except bosses) no roles are really needed. (It's a Melee/FPS game) Also, EVERY moment is a 4-player dungeon? No thanks We all know how PUGS are. I don't want to have to depend on 3 other random players to be able to play.
Every MMO I've played had the Tank/DPS/Healer Trinity. One game, Rift, even added a 4th role (support). There's no way I can see any MMO NOT have the trinity in some form.
Everquest
DAoC
World of Warcraft
Secret World
SWTOR
Rift
Lineage II
Archeage
Allods Online
Even certain MMOBAs use the "trinity"
Lawbreakers:
Tanks - Titan, Juggernaut
DPS - Vanguard, Assassin, Gun-slinger
Healer - Battle Medic
Support - Enforcer, Wraith, Harrier
Overwatch:
Offense
Defense
Tank
Support
GW2. Not that you deserve a polite answer.
Well, Seeing as I haven't played that game, I'll defer to someone that has:As an action rpg i think the traditional roles need to allow for versatility for, as someone mentioned, content such as VMA. However, I am a very firm and staunch proponent for the trinity roles in mmorpgs.
I played GW2 for almost a year, and as we all should know, GW2 was famous (or infamous imho) for trying to break the trinity mold and it was essentially a disaster. They encouraged you to build for "support" as there truly was no trinity however, all content could be cleared faster and more efficiently when built for full dmg. and thats what happened.
There was an out-of-game lfg (because there was no in game version) and it was littered with posting such as:
"LF ZERKER WAR OR GTFO"
"LFM NEED ZERKER WARRIOR!"
"HOF SPEED RUN ZERKER WAR ONLY!"
the warrior w/ full beserker gear and a two hander outclassed every other class in dps and it became the only thing min/maxers wanted in group. We already started seeing that in ESO before the morrowind CP changes. Everyone built for max dmg.
Anyways im getting long winded as usual but the moral to the story is the trinity is needed or the game gets real monotone.
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Tarum✭✭✭Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of rolesI would love to see the tank role vanish. Its utterly useless, and a bit of a silly concept. They are not a threat so why would a boss attack some chump in a metal outfit swinging a wet noodle.
This is a fabulous idea. Let the boss agro on whoever and one shot them and anyone near them.
That adds some challenge to the fight. Lol. Fortunately Zos has enough sense to keep the tank in the game.
That's a very limited way of thinking about how a game *could* be designed though.
Whoever said that it was players that came up with the trinity is both correct and yet wrong at the same time. If you have an enemy who can hit really hard in a game then you're going to need a player who can take that damage and survive, hence the tank is born. Then they need a healer to give them alive, so the next pillar of the trinity is formed. As neither of those two can do damage any more do you need DPS. Now we have a full trinity. The trinity was ultimately born of game design, not player approach.
But what IF a game wasn't designed so that Boss A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, X, Y, Z had to have attacks which would one-shot anybody who wasn't tanky? What if all team members were able to equally contribute to the group's survival and not just a tank or healer?
I think most of the poeple don't want to think outside the box. I agree with you.
It would be crazy to remove trinity from THIS game, with the current mechanic. But it's possible to create a MMO with a different gameplay that don't need trinity.
In 100 parallel universe, if everyone of them would create mmorpg (lol impossible) i think that everyone would have different standards and most of them would have no tank.
Any film director so far use characters like Timon and Pumbaa to take aggro from big monsters and than run like crazy, not chuncky guys in heavy armour. I really don't see how a slow heavy armored guy with a stick is a threat for the monster, when a crazy dps is damaging him seriously from behind.
it's also crazy that a random guy calling rats in a sewer (wayrest sewer) can take 100+ sword swings and random magic.
The WHOLE system is not working, it's not just the trinity. In short... yes, mmo designed to not having this kind of situation and thus no trinity could work if made properly. Even a coop skyrim with increased difficulty would work better
Some of my sculpts (the ones i'm allowed to share, not under copyright)
andreatarabella.blogspot.com.es/0 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MMO Players cant even master the current Trinity. Why would you expect them to be able to function in a setting where it was a free for all with skills and builds?Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »MMO Players cant even master the current Trinity. Why would you expect them to be able to function in a setting where it was a free for all with skills and builds?
This make zero sense. There are players/groups that do quite well with the trinity in ESO, and other games.0 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭I'm other
stealth in group play and in pve needs to be changed
most mmo's that break away from the holy trinity don't last long for such a bad mmo dcuo had the best support role the controller they would provide resources and did all the cc and was actually fun and could be good in duels even though it was a sup role. them succeeding in 4 roles is the only good aspect of the game.
I do wish eso didn't have classes I know its easier to do and less of a learning gap for players new to game because its locking away a lot of playing types that the solo games had.
I know my first oblivion play through was a spell sword weakening the enemies till they got close then execute them.
my first skim play through was a shadow mage I didn't even have to fight 95% of the time they'd all kill each other for me.
also did a full summer play through and it was actually fun because it wasn't summon and forget like this game with toggles id summon pets and summon weapons.
and there still isn't a frost mage in this game even though there motto is play as you wantDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc1 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »MMO Players cant even master the current Trinity. Why would you expect them to be able to function in a setting where it was a free for all with skills and builds?
This make zero sense. There are players/groups that do quite well with the trinity in ESO, and other games.
I guess it would make zero sense if youve never played the game outside of your little bubble. Theres a reason why PUGs are notorious for being a @$#& show and why players pay top dollar to have others run them through dungeons and trials. The vast majority of MMO players havent the faintest idea how the games mechanics work let alone what makes their classes work or how abilities interact.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax2 -
MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭No - It's not the best idea but still better than anything elseI'd much rather steer the MMO mentality away from gear grind rather than try to change the holy trinity.I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.0 -
LioraValkyrie✭✭✭✭For those looking for a 4th support role, what about rolling Mag Warden?
My ice mage can immobilize and/or slow pretty much everything to a crawl, throw stuns left and right, drop Major Protection, passively heal group members, taunt if the tank goes down, all while dealing 25k dps. She doesn't do any one thing as good as a specialist, but can do everything ok-ish.Mistress of Apocrypha - Master PetSorc
Founder of The Lollygaggers
Creator of the 1-bar vMA build
World first solo vFH
Unchained Altmer Sorc Tank
Visit me on YouTube! Mistress of Apocrypha ESO1 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No - I'm happy with the current 3 main rolesKorah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »MMO Players cant even master the current Trinity. Why would you expect them to be able to function in a setting where it was a free for all with skills and builds?
This make zero sense. There are players/groups that do quite well with the trinity in ESO, and other games.
I guess it would make zero sense if youve never played the game outside of your little bubble. Theres a reason why PUGs are notorious for being a @$#& show and why players pay top dollar to have others run them through dungeons and trials. The vast majority of MMO players havent the faintest idea how the games mechanics work let alone what makes their classes work or how abilities interact.
Plyed AoC, a bit of EvE, swtor, Wildstar, and this, and in my experience most know what they are doing and a small minority refuse or are unable to learn.0
