Tired of the MMO role trinity?

Doctordarkspawn · November 2017

I'm tired of th eholy trinity being done -badly-, like in this game.

I dont think the trinity needs to be overhauled or re-invented as it ends up being the same thing anyway.

Iccotak · November 2017

Runefang wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see the roles move from Tank / Healer / Damage to Mage / Thief / Warrior.

One thing MMOs haven't captured is the essence of D&D where each class brings a unique ability to a group. This is especially true of sneaky classes. Nightblades, for example, really aren't sneaky. They have a cloak but its useless in a group, there is nothing they bring to the table by being sneaky.

I want to see a thief sneak past a sleeping giant and steal his potions or club so when the group wakes him he's not as dangerous. I want to see the mage shield the group when the giant throws a rock. I want to see the warrior stun him while he roars to avoid bringing down the roof.

I agree that there needs to be more thief mechanics.

Tarum · November 2017

Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of roles

Trinity works so well that most of the thread in the forum are complaining about people playing bad these roles.
Really, calculating "DPS" should be something exactly opposite to a fictional setting. Could you imagine that in a fantasy movie?

I assume that trinity works well to make people querrel and have someone to blame...

Minyassa · November 2017

Yes - Move from specific roles to everybody being a jack-of-all-trades

It's pretty boring. Feels like having the same meal over and over. All the creative stuff that's in all the video games out there, and the meta settled on this stuff. Tsk.

idk · November 2017

I think wanting change for the sake of change as seems to be the case for OP, it is not logical. It is easy to say I want change and considering ESO does not need the trinity except for the most challenging content it seems that things are just fine.

Heck, most vet dungeons can be done without a true tank or true healer. I have cleared some of the DLC dungeons including vCoS HM with a heal tank. Have cleared vWGT without a healer. LOL, remember we pugged a healer one time, low CP so probably light on the experience, and did all the vet pledges in HM including vICP. The healer died during the final boss fight each time and we never rezed her. We were fine and brought that healer along mostly for their experience.

It comes down to a matter of choice and what the group can manage. So the trinity is not required for most content in ESO.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · November 2017

No - It's not the best idea but still better than anything else

While the trinity is old, I think it is the best we will get in a large AAA game. Ive seen what happens when you dont build around a tank and a healer. everyone stacks as much hps as their class needs to survive, then they stack damage. the end.

Slick_007 · November 2017

so, call of duty with no medic?

KochDerDamonen · November 2017

Eh, in GW2 everyone is a dps blob and I hated it

ccfeeling · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

I think ZOS should develop 2 different skills setting in 2 different worlds

They fail to balance at once .

Fingolfinn01 · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

the trinity system wasn't built by developers. It was developed by players, and the devs started to produce abilities for those player characters to help them with there role. Ultima online it where it all started. Its an elegant system.

pepe1337 · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

You want a game like destiny>? mindless dps with nothing intresting.

Axoinus · November 2017

Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of roles

The trinity roles exist simply to ensure teaming occurs. But the industry saw that more paying customers could be obtained and maintained if more solo content was available.

So MMOs evolved to allow more diverse builds that allowed soloing. Unfortunately, this resulted in much more complex balance issues.

MMOs have now gotten a bit more skill based and less formulaic.

The traditional MMO has a lot of competition with new games becoming available, even AAA games, practically every month.

Bottom-line, we all have our preferences, but it(MMOs and Gaming in general) will continue to evolve to maximize ROI.

With that said, the direction MMOs go will be influenced by this BF2 stuff going on right now.

paulsimonps · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

This is not an Action Combat MMO. If this game would have been Dark Souls combat and game mechanics then YES, go for it, remove any and all classes and have the game feel more like actual medieval Fantasy combat. BUT, THIS IS NOT an ACTION COMBAT MMO, you can't have that kind of gameplay in a tab target environment. For big obvious reasons. Watch this if you don't know the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc

Changing ESO to the point where we could remove Roles like that would be making an entirely new game and it would not be ESO as we know and love. As well the roles are there for a reason, calling them other things will not change what they are in its base form. TANK, DPS, HEALER. You can call it Paladin, Warrior/Warlock and Cleric and they would perform the same roles and have the same purpose in a group. We generalize to make an easier identification, generalization for identification is something we humans do ALL the time, its a very very very common thing to do, and it serves a purpose, its not just for the heck of it. So try as you wish to remove the roles, but people will call them out and make them on their own and then ask for someone to put them back in to make it easier for them.

Runefang · November 2017

Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of roles

paulsimonps wrote: »

This is not an Action Combat MMO. If this game would have been Dark Souls combat and game mechanics then YES, go for it, remove any and all classes and have the game feel more like actual medieval Fantasy combat. BUT, THIS IS NOT an ACTION COMBAT MMO, you can't have that kind of gameplay in a tab target environment. For big obvious reasons. Watch this if you don't know the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc

Changing ESO to the point where we could remove Roles like that would be making an entirely new game and it would not be ESO as we know and love. As well the roles are there for a reason, calling them other things will not change what they are in its base form. TANK, DPS, HEALER. You can call it Paladin, Warrior/Warlock and Cleric and they would perform the same roles and have the same purpose in a group. We generalize to make an easier identification, generalization for identification is something we humans do ALL the time, its a very very very common thing to do, and it serves a purpose, its not just for the heck of it. So try as you wish to remove the roles, but people will call them out and make them on their own and then ask for someone to put them back in to make it easier for them.

I agree with all that, I'm certainly not saying to do this in ESO, its more commentary on the genre generally.

And yes humans like predictability wrapped up in small boxes, yet somehow its the ground breaking outside of the box stuff that captures our imagination.

I don't want a change for the sake of it, rather to see MMO gaming move on. Wow genuinely does a good job with the trinity but its not the only design choice.

PlagueSD · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

phairdon wrote: »

The other MMO I play does not have a trinity. The trinity is still kind of foreign to me, even after 3+ years of game play.

And what MMO would that be? Toon Town?

Tarum wrote: »

It's a completely different game, but have anyone tried Vermintide? There are few characters that feels different between them and basically EVERY moment in the game is a 4people Dungeon.

Haven't played that game, but checked out some gameplay videos. When everything can be one-shot (except bosses) no roles are really needed. (It's a Melee/FPS game) Also, EVERY moment is a 4-player dungeon? No thanks We all know how PUGS are. I don't want to have to depend on 3 other random players to be able to play.

Every MMO I've played had the Tank/DPS/Healer Trinity. One game, Rift, even added a 4th role (support). There's no way I can see any MMO NOT have the trinity in some form.

Everquest
DAoC
World of Warcraft
Secret World
SWTOR
Rift
Lineage II
Archeage
Allods Online

Even certain MMOBAs use the "trinity"

Lawbreakers:
Tanks - Titan, Juggernaut
DPS - Vanguard, Assassin, Gun-slinger
Healer - Battle Medic
Support - Enforcer, Wraith, Harrier

Overwatch:
Offense
Defense
Tank
Support

ThePrinceOfBargains · November 2017

Yes - Move from specific roles to everybody being a jack-of-all-trades

paulsimonps wrote: »

This is not an Action Combat MMO. If this game would have been Dark Souls combat and game mechanics then YES, go for it, remove any and all classes and have the game feel more like actual medieval Fantasy combat. BUT, THIS IS NOT an ACTION COMBAT MMO, you can't have that kind of gameplay in a tab target environment. For big obvious reasons. Watch this if you don't know the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc

Changing ESO to the point where we could remove Roles like that would be making an entirely new game and it would not be ESO as we know and love.

That looks a lot better than ESO’s stationary, monotonous combat. If ESO’s combat was like that, it’d go from a game I tolerate in the name of The Elder Scrolls to a game I actually love. I don’t expect the developers to go that deep this far in, but hell. That would be awesome.

Ozstryker · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

You guys realise that you can form your own groups and play how you like? Every class has the ability to be self sufficient.. or you can use the group finder and adopt a role!
What we must keep in mind is eso is a game of a certain genre.. therefore it wont (and shouldn't) change!

Could you imagine how horrid the majority of pugs would be without a little structure?

Rawkan · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

After playing GW2 I'm so happy the role trinity exists.

LadyAstrum · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

When I played GW2 I was happy with the no-trinity approach, but now I realise I prefer the trinity. Back in my LotRO days (before it changed to F2P or whatever it is now) I loved being a healer and enjoyed supporting the tank because he/she was the bedrock of the party. Same in Aion, I enjoyed a buff/heal role.

Tarum · November 2017

Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of roles

Changing the main roles wouldn't mean that there should be not roles at all.
Also, people complainging about roles (me too) is not complaining about CLASSES. At the moment class means nothing, I'm not even sure why they are there... It would have more sense to choose the skill line you want.

And no... I can't play how I want in Group contenent. I use heavy armor because I like it, but everytime i'm in a 4 people Dungeon people complain that to be efficient in not Tanking i should use medium or light, or change my role to tank.
Well, and if I want to use heavy armour but not tanking?
I already know that questing and doing pvp i can use whethever skills or armor I like, my problem is being cutted off from Undaunted because i like certain armor weight.

Peekachu99 · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

I’ve been playing a lot of GW2 lately and it’s the perfect example of WHY a trinity exists. Raids in that game are being shoehorned into needing these roles because combat, otherwise, is a cluster-you-know-what. It’s a great game, but you can see from the backpedaling on their original “manifesto” now that they’ve realized these roles have worth.

zaria · November 2017

Fingolfinn01 wrote: »

the trinity system wasn't built by developers. It was developed by players, and the devs started to produce abilities for those player characters to help them with there role. Ultima online it where it all started. Its an elegant system.

That is interesting, and it makes sense.
Now ESO is not build so upon the trinity as say WOW, you can do most stuff with 4 DD or 3+tank or healer.

randomkeyhits · November 2017

What do you expect?

Look at an instance in an MMO, whether dungeon, raid, alert or <insert_group_content_name_here> and look at what has to be done. There are one or more bosses to kill, often they have "special" skills to attack with and often with environmental damage as well. Mechanisms....

You have damage dealers to do the actual damage to complete the instance, healers to mitigate that incoming damage and tanks to control how the damage is coming in. Call them what you will but those are the basic functions to enable an instance to be completed. Add some sprinkles on top like who has what buffs and debuffs and there is the player variety. Some games try to add a bit more like DCUO where they have the controller role but the bottom line always ends up as

Enough non-damagers to allow us to complete the instance, stack as many damagers as possible to blow away mechanics.

If you really want something different? Well then you have to start at the beginning and that is instance design and objectives. It really depends on what is implemented but I'd probably love it to see content where the summary is not

hit stuff hard enough so it can't hit you back, rinse repeat, big guy, don't stand in stupid, hit faster, all done, loot? meh....

even then the trinity would be at the core of it.

Tonturri · November 2017

There's a holy trinity for a reason. People who specialize tend (I'd like to avoid saying 'always', but y'know...) to be more valued for whatever it is they do than someone who knows other stuff, but is only kinda good at the thing you want done.

Now, you CAN get rid of the 'holy trinity'. However, having a dedicated tank, heal and DPS are the most OPTIMAL. It's also a lot harder for people who aren't quite sure what they're doing to screw up. You most certainly can do a lot (maybe all, who knows) of the content in the game with people not following the holy trinity. However, it's going to be harder.

In short, the holy trinity exists because it's the most optimal. MMOs are in the end a numbers game. Even GW2 raids have a holy trinity.

...It also makes things much easier to balance. Imagine if there was a mechanic where a rogue steals a weapon from the boss, and the boss becomes much more manageable after that. Now every group requires a rogue to at the very least do that. Maybe the rogue does less DPS than the other classes because it can do stuff like that. If it does the same DPS or more, rogues EVERYWHERE. Game balance would be an absolute nightmare.

Alchemical · November 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

The worst part of the Tank/Healer/Damage roles in ESO is that if you build for Tank or Healer then you seriously weaken yourself for content like Veteran Maelstrom Arena or some instances of solo play in PVP.

Building for damage makes more of the game accessible, and that's why it takes so long to queue for dungeons as a DPS (because most players realize that DPS is more versatile across content).

This is the biggest problem with the trinity in ESO. vMA is such an important piece of content yet it can only be completed by one role.

I don't see why they couldn't release similar arenas with rewards geared to support. You get NPC DPS, you either need to keep them all alive with efficient healing, or execute proper tanking mechanics so the NPCs don't take damage in the first place.

I hate to compare anything to WoW but this was a change they made in the 'artifacts' quest lines that I actually really liked. There were periodic quests in the campaign that acted as 'tank checks' and 'heal checks' to make sure you knew your role and understood how it evolved over the course of leveling, culminating in a big 'raid boss' style encounter with NPC teammates. There are also the Proving Grounds that have been around for a while that act as a challenge mode for certain roles (but they're not very well made tbh).

Just because MOST people play DPS doesn't mean everyone does, and it's dumb to punish people who choose to play the vital support roles by saying "Hey, one of the most important pieces of content you paid for? It's not for you."

Slick_007 · November 2017

Tarum wrote: »

And no... I can't play how I want in Group contenent. I use heavy armor because I like it, but everytime i'm in a 4 people Dungeon people complain that to be efficient in not Tanking i should use medium or light, or change my role to tank.
Well, and if I want to use heavy armour but not tanking?
I already know that questing and doing pvp i can use whethever skills or armor I like, my problem is being cutted off from Undaunted because i like certain armor weight.

thats not a limitation of the system. its the people you're playing with that are the issue. i understand its a random group, but its the players that are the issue there. and they suck for it.

Demycilian · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

I always felt GW2 was a very poor experience due to its lack of the trinity doctrine.

Surgee · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

I guess political correctness is reaching MMOs. No role discrimination, anyone can do anything. Since we're at it, let's add a third gender or remove them altogether. Why can only female chars have bosoms?

FearlessOne_2014 · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

Taysa wrote: »

Guild Wars 2 already tried that. And it was largely unappealing.

This! GW2 and every other MMO that has attempted this. Always end up being lackluster at best. Roles give purpose and function to each class.

Without roles you would end up having "subpar game play" As GW2 and others like it, have demonstrated.

SugaComa · November 2017

While I think it's time to move away from the trinity I don't want to see groups of people who are jack of all trades ... That would ruin PvP and make the game fairly dull

Personally I feel you should only be able to hybrid two of the three

Truth is it isn't about the players it's about the game mechanics ...if every boss battle wasn't just ok go here turn the boss around and hit it as hard as you can while a healer keeps you buffed we wouldn't need the trinity

Focus on improving the mechanics ... Imagine being able to do content where healers or tanks out numbered DDs cos the game mechanics needed that.

Healing undead actually did damage to them but poison or oblivion damage healed them