Tired of the MMO role trinity?

idk · November 2017

Runefang wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

This is not an Action Combat MMO. If this game would have been Dark Souls combat and game mechanics then YES, go for it, remove any and all classes and have the game feel more like actual medieval Fantasy combat. BUT, THIS IS NOT an ACTION COMBAT MMO, you can't have that kind of gameplay in a tab target environment. For big obvious reasons. Watch this if you don't know the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc

Changing ESO to the point where we could remove Roles like that would be making an entirely new game and it would not be ESO as we know and love. As well the roles are there for a reason, calling them other things will not change what they are in its base form. TANK, DPS, HEALER. You can call it Paladin, Warrior/Warlock and Cleric and they would perform the same roles and have the same purpose in a group. We generalize to make an easier identification, generalization for identification is something we humans do ALL the time, its a very very very common thing to do, and it serves a purpose, its not just for the heck of it. So try as you wish to remove the roles, but people will call them out and make them on their own and then ask for someone to put them back in to make it easier for them.

I agree with all that, I'm certainly not saying to do this in ESO, its more commentary on the genre generally.

And yes humans like predictability wrapped up in small boxes, yet somehow its the ground breaking outside of the box stuff that captures our imagination.

I don't want a change for the sake of it, rather to see MMO gaming move on. Wow genuinely does a good job with the trinity but its not the only design choice.

Even if thsi thread was created as commentary on the genre the Paul's comment still applies since he was speaking to the genres.

THWIP71 · November 2017

I suppose they could add "useless XP-leeching wallflower" to the mix....there seems to be an awful lot of them.

Jpk0012 · November 2017

Yes - Move from specific roles to everybody being a jack-of-all-trades

I would love to see the tank role vanish. Its utterly useless, and a bit of a silly concept. They are not a threat so why would a boss attack some chump in a metal outfit swinging a wet noodle.

Runefang · November 2017

Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of roles

idk wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

This is not an Action Combat MMO. If this game would have been Dark Souls combat and game mechanics then YES, go for it, remove any and all classes and have the game feel more like actual medieval Fantasy combat. BUT, THIS IS NOT an ACTION COMBAT MMO, you can't have that kind of gameplay in a tab target environment. For big obvious reasons. Watch this if you don't know the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc

Changing ESO to the point where we could remove Roles like that would be making an entirely new game and it would not be ESO as we know and love. As well the roles are there for a reason, calling them other things will not change what they are in its base form. TANK, DPS, HEALER. You can call it Paladin, Warrior/Warlock and Cleric and they would perform the same roles and have the same purpose in a group. We generalize to make an easier identification, generalization for identification is something we humans do ALL the time, its a very very very common thing to do, and it serves a purpose, its not just for the heck of it. So try as you wish to remove the roles, but people will call them out and make them on their own and then ask for someone to put them back in to make it easier for them.

I agree with all that, I'm certainly not saying to do this in ESO, its more commentary on the genre generally.

And yes humans like predictability wrapped up in small boxes, yet somehow its the ground breaking outside of the box stuff that captures our imagination.

I don't want a change for the sake of it, rather to see MMO gaming move on. Wow genuinely does a good job with the trinity but its not the only design choice.

Even if thsi thread was created as commentary on the genre the Paul's comment still applies since he was speaking to the genres.

Your point? My comment still applies too.

Sotha_Sil · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

Honestly, I hate that kind of gameplay where you must heal and dps at the same time in pvp. I would rather just be a powerful restoration healer/master in Elder Scrolls and that's it.

idk · November 2017

Jpk0012 wrote: »

I would love to see the tank role vanish. Its utterly useless, and a bit of a silly concept. They are not a threat so why would a boss attack some chump in a metal outfit swinging a wet noodle.

This is a fabulous idea. Let the boss agro on whoever and one shot them and anyone near them.

That adds some challenge to the fight. Lol. Fortunately Zos has enough sense to keep the tank in the game.

khele23eb17_ESO · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

If you want a clusterf... where people play next to eachother instead of with eachother, sure - drop the trinity.

Now, if you wanted to add more specialized roles to the trinity I guess that could work. DCUO for example had 4 core roles instead of 3. You had tanks (who tanked), healers (who healed), damage dealers (who pew pewed) and you had controllers who generated energy needed for everyone else to use their abilities. I really enjoyed the system and it worked very well.

phairdon · November 2017

I solo so couldn't care less

PlagueSD wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

The other MMO I play does not have a trinity. The trinity is still kind of foreign to me, even after 3+ years of game play.

And what MMO would that be? Toon Town?

Tarum wrote: »

It's a completely different game, but have anyone tried Vermintide? There are few characters that feels different between them and basically EVERY moment in the game is a 4people Dungeon.

Haven't played that game, but checked out some gameplay videos. When everything can be one-shot (except bosses) no roles are really needed. (It's a Melee/FPS game) Also, EVERY moment is a 4-player dungeon? No thanks We all know how PUGS are. I don't want to have to depend on 3 other random players to be able to play.

Every MMO I've played had the Tank/DPS/Healer Trinity. One game, Rift, even added a 4th role (support). There's no way I can see any MMO NOT have the trinity in some form.

Everquest
DAoC
World of Warcraft
Secret World
SWTOR
Rift
Lineage II
Archeage
Allods Online

Even certain MMOBAs use the "trinity"

Lawbreakers:
Tanks - Titan, Juggernaut
DPS - Vanguard, Assassin, Gun-slinger
Healer - Battle Medic
Support - Enforcer, Wraith, Harrier

Overwatch:
Offense
Defense
Tank
Support

GW2. Not that you deserve a polite answer.

iiYuki · November 2017

No - It's not the best idea but still better than anything else

What to though? Ideally there would be more choices but in the end it will always be derivatives of the main 3.

Runefang · November 2017

Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of roles

idk wrote: »

Jpk0012 wrote: »

I would love to see the tank role vanish. Its utterly useless, and a bit of a silly concept. They are not a threat so why would a boss attack some chump in a metal outfit swinging a wet noodle.

This is a fabulous idea. Let the boss agro on whoever and one shot them and anyone near them.

That adds some challenge to the fight. Lol. Fortunately Zos has enough sense to keep the tank in the game.

That's a very limited way of thinking about how a game *could* be designed though.

Whoever said that it was players that came up with the trinity is both correct and yet wrong at the same time. If you have an enemy who can hit really hard in a game then you're going to need a player who can take that damage and survive, hence the tank is born. Then they need a healer to give them alive, so the next pillar of the trinity is formed. As neither of those two can do damage any more do you need DPS. Now we have a full trinity. The trinity was ultimately born of game design, not player approach.

But what IF a game wasn't designed so that Boss A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, X, Y, Z had to have attacks which would one-shot anybody who wasn't tanky? What if all team members were able to equally contribute to the group's survival and not just a tank or healer?

PlagueSD · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

phairdon wrote: »

PlagueSD wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

The other MMO I play does not have a trinity. The trinity is still kind of foreign to me, even after 3+ years of game play.

And what MMO would that be? Toon Town?

Tarum wrote: »

It's a completely different game, but have anyone tried Vermintide? There are few characters that feels different between them and basically EVERY moment in the game is a 4people Dungeon.

Haven't played that game, but checked out some gameplay videos. When everything can be one-shot (except bosses) no roles are really needed. (It's a Melee/FPS game) Also, EVERY moment is a 4-player dungeon? No thanks We all know how PUGS are. I don't want to have to depend on 3 other random players to be able to play.

Every MMO I've played had the Tank/DPS/Healer Trinity. One game, Rift, even added a 4th role (support). There's no way I can see any MMO NOT have the trinity in some form.

Everquest
DAoC
World of Warcraft
Secret World
SWTOR
Rift
Lineage II
Archeage
Allods Online

Even certain MMOBAs use the "trinity"

Lawbreakers:
Tanks - Titan, Juggernaut
DPS - Vanguard, Assassin, Gun-slinger
Healer - Battle Medic
Support - Enforcer, Wraith, Harrier

Overwatch:
Offense
Defense
Tank
Support

GW2. Not that you deserve a polite answer.

Well, Seeing as I haven't played that game, I'll defer to someone that has:

Rickter wrote: »

As an action rpg i think the traditional roles need to allow for versatility for, as someone mentioned, content such as VMA. However, I am a very firm and staunch proponent for the trinity roles in mmorpgs.

I played GW2 for almost a year, and as we all should know, GW2 was famous (or infamous imho) for trying to break the trinity mold and it was essentially a disaster. They encouraged you to build for "support" as there truly was no trinity however, all content could be cleared faster and more efficiently when built for full dmg. and thats what happened.

There was an out-of-game lfg (because there was no in game version) and it was littered with posting such as:

"LF ZERKER WAR OR GTFO"
"LFM NEED ZERKER WARRIOR!"
"HOF SPEED RUN ZERKER WAR ONLY!"

the warrior w/ full beserker gear and a two hander outclassed every other class in dps and it became the only thing min/maxers wanted in group. We already started seeing that in ESO before the morrowind CP changes. Everyone built for max dmg.

Anyways im getting long winded as usual but the moral to the story is the trinity is needed or the game gets real monotone.

Tarum · November 2017

Yes - The trinity needs to evolve in MMO gaming from Tank/Healer/Damage to another set of roles

Runefang wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jpk0012 wrote: »

I would love to see the tank role vanish. Its utterly useless, and a bit of a silly concept. They are not a threat so why would a boss attack some chump in a metal outfit swinging a wet noodle.

This is a fabulous idea. Let the boss agro on whoever and one shot them and anyone near them.

That adds some challenge to the fight. Lol. Fortunately Zos has enough sense to keep the tank in the game.

That's a very limited way of thinking about how a game *could* be designed though.

Whoever said that it was players that came up with the trinity is both correct and yet wrong at the same time. If you have an enemy who can hit really hard in a game then you're going to need a player who can take that damage and survive, hence the tank is born. Then they need a healer to give them alive, so the next pillar of the trinity is formed. As neither of those two can do damage any more do you need DPS. Now we have a full trinity. The trinity was ultimately born of game design, not player approach.

But what IF a game wasn't designed so that Boss A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, X, Y, Z had to have attacks which would one-shot anybody who wasn't tanky? What if all team members were able to equally contribute to the group's survival and not just a tank or healer?

I think most of the poeple don't want to think outside the box. I agree with you.
It would be crazy to remove trinity from THIS game, with the current mechanic. But it's possible to create a MMO with a different gameplay that don't need trinity.
In 100 parallel universe, if everyone of them would create mmorpg (lol impossible) i think that everyone would have different standards and most of them would have no tank.

Any film director so far use characters like Timon and Pumbaa to take aggro from big monsters and than run like crazy, not chuncky guys in heavy armour. I really don't see how a slow heavy armored guy with a stick is a threat for the monster, when a crazy dps is damaging him seriously from behind.

it's also crazy that a random guy calling rats in a sewer (wayrest sewer) can take 100+ sword swings and random magic.

The WHOLE system is not working, it's not just the trinity. In short... yes, mmo designed to not having this kind of situation and thus no trinity could work if made properly. Even a coop skyrim with increased difficulty would work better

Korah_Eaglecry · November 2017

MMO Players cant even master the current Trinity. Why would you expect them to be able to function in a setting where it was a free for all with skills and builds?

idk · November 2017

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

MMO Players cant even master the current Trinity. Why would you expect them to be able to function in a setting where it was a free for all with skills and builds?

This make zero sense. There are players/groups that do quite well with the trinity in ESO, and other games.

lucky_Sage · November 2017

I'm other
stealth in group play and in pve needs to be changed
most mmo's that break away from the holy trinity don't last long for such a bad mmo dcuo had the best support role the controller they would provide resources and did all the cc and was actually fun and could be good in duels even though it was a sup role. them succeeding in 4 roles is the only good aspect of the game.
I do wish eso didn't have classes I know its easier to do and less of a learning gap for players new to game because its locking away a lot of playing types that the solo games had.
I know my first oblivion play through was a spell sword weakening the enemies till they got close then execute them.
my first skim play through was a shadow mage I didn't even have to fight 95% of the time they'd all kill each other for me.
also did a full summer play through and it was actually fun because it wasn't summon and forget like this game with toggles id summon pets and summon weapons.
and there still isn't a frost mage in this game even though there motto is play as you want

OutLaw_Nynx · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I played GW2 back in the day. I wasn’t fond of that dynamic. Nobody knew what to do...

People don’t even know what to do with 3!

Korah_Eaglecry · November 2017

idk wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

MMO Players cant even master the current Trinity. Why would you expect them to be able to function in a setting where it was a free for all with skills and builds?

This make zero sense. There are players/groups that do quite well with the trinity in ESO, and other games.

I guess it would make zero sense if youve never played the game outside of your little bubble. Theres a reason why PUGs are notorious for being a @$#& show and why players pay top dollar to have others run them through dungeons and trials. The vast majority of MMO players havent the faintest idea how the games mechanics work let alone what makes their classes work or how abilities interact.

MercyKilling · November 2017

No - It's not the best idea but still better than anything else

I'd much rather steer the MMO mentality away from gear grind rather than try to change the holy trinity.

LioraValkyrie · November 2017

For those looking for a 4th support role, what about rolling Mag Warden?

My ice mage can immobilize and/or slow pretty much everything to a crawl, throw stuns left and right, drop Major Protection, passively heal group members, taunt if the tank goes down, all while dealing 25k dps. She doesn't do any one thing as good as a specialist, but can do everything ok-ish.

Jade1986 · November 2017

No - I'm happy with the current 3 main roles

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

MMO Players cant even master the current Trinity. Why would you expect them to be able to function in a setting where it was a free for all with skills and builds?

This make zero sense. There are players/groups that do quite well with the trinity in ESO, and other games.

I guess it would make zero sense if youve never played the game outside of your little bubble. Theres a reason why PUGs are notorious for being a @$#& show and why players pay top dollar to have others run them through dungeons and trials. The vast majority of MMO players havent the faintest idea how the games mechanics work let alone what makes their classes work or how abilities interact.

Plyed AoC, a bit of EvE, swtor, Wildstar, and this, and in my experience most know what they are doing and a small minority refuse or are unable to learn.