PvP is the real endgame. If you're adequately leveled, it would make sense to want to move onto it. There is a lot more depth to PvP, it requires a lot more skill, and is a lot more fun.

And that is coming from someone who even enjoys PvE and is also a veteran of PvE.

Since you are specifically asking about Battlegrounds...

Most of the early issues with Battlegrounds stemmed around the lack of leveled matchmaking and, of course, the fact that it was only No CP.

Current Issues

• Pre-made Groups v PUGs - there's no filter for groups, and pre-made groups have a lot of advantages over PUGs no two ways about it. At least some of the leveled matchmaking got fixed, I believe.
• CP-enabled problematic builds - CP PVP in Cyrodiil has a number of problematic builds, but in a small group envirnonment the "unkillable" tank builds are particularly hard to deal with since you don't have the option of calling your friendly neighborhood raid to deal with them. If you've ever dealt with a small group farming resources in Cyrodiil that feels really hard to pin down and kill, that's what's become more common in Battlegrounds and its just really annoying to deal with.
• Lack of a No CP option - Players that like No CP PVP and players who like CP PVP generally don't like both. Which means that Battlegrounds alienated a bunch of players when it came out and has now aliented a bunch of players who used to play it. ZOS would offer both options, but its the same problem as Imperial City - its a small population to begin with and dividing it further makes it even smaller.
• Small player base - this is caused by a number of issues, including the paywall of Morrowind, but it also causes a problem where pre-made groups wind up dominating and then come up in the roation again and again. It gets pretty discouraging getting stomped on by the same folks over and over, so it hurts player retention. Same thing for dealing with the same tanky players over and over again, which also hurts player retention.
• Inability to choose which mode the player joins. This is because ZOS made these nice modes for us to play and enjoy, even though most players who probably choose Deathmatch most of the time given the choice.

So what could ZOS do to fix it?

• Remove the Paywall and make it part of the base game - ZOS won't do this, and its entirely possible that most currently active players own Morrowind, I don't have the data on that.
• Offer a No CP and CP option for battlegrounds - runs the risk of dividing a small player base further and thus emptying Battlegrounds more than it is, but also gives players the option to play how they want instead of one or the other.
• Address the more problematic builds - ZOS is trying to do this with varying success. Most of the recent heavy armor nerfs and even the Morrowind sustain changes can really be seen as ZOS trying to grapple with the unkillable tanks doing lots of damage problem (though the Morrowind sustain changes were also aimed at overperforming PVE DPS, so I don't want to bash PVP here).
• Give players the option to choose which mode(s) they play in. Not going to happen, because ZOS wants us playing all the modes, but we can dream.

Ultimately, I suspect that Battlegrounds, like the Imperial City DLC, is something that appeals to a relatively small amount of the player base. It has limited retention of players who don't enjoy it because of the various problems listed above and it struggles with the players for whom it does appeal because of the lack of options or problematic gameplay in No CP or CP PVP.

If you think Battlegrounds will appeal to you, go for it! Give it a try. It has its flaws like all games, but it can be very fun and enjoyable. If it doesn't appeal to you, there are plenty of other fun things about ESO. Find something that gives you enjoyment and do that.

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

PvP is the real endgame. If you're adequately leveled, it would make sense to want to move onto it. There is a lot more depth to PvP, it requires a lot more skill, and is a lot more fun.

And that is coming from someone who even enjoys PvE and is also a veteran of PvE.

"Real endgame"

What about trials and dungeons? You can enter PvP at lvl10, and even in CP PvP you can do noCP phase.

This game has no "real endgame"

While logically sound, your comment does not account for the big picture.

Yes, you can enter Cyrodiil at level 10, but currently the only campaign that is alive is Vivec. Vivec is a CP enabled campaign with the majority of players being at max level (CP 690). If you want to have any hope of being competitive there, you'll want to have 600 CP, but if you're really good you can compete with 500 but you'll still be at a huge disadvantage. So say you want to just be able to compete in Vivec, you would have had to be playing this game for at least a year. And that said unless you've been historically good at PvP in MMOs or other games, you have a huge learning curve to contend with.

The thing with Cyrodiil is that it just sort of cycles over and over again/never really ends, meaning that you can continue playing for an indefinite amount of time (years). Perfect for the endgame crowd who have tackled most of the other content in the game. This content actually never ends (in theory).

The skill cap in PvP is incredibly high. You have most players sitting somewhere in the middle, with a smaller percentage being god tier and then you have the trash tier, which could be made up of either lower level players or just bad players.

Games with high skill caps have high replay value so that also supports the fact that PvP is endgame. PvE doesn't really have notable skill caps, it's not that hard to become really good at your role (good enough to beat all the content in the game), and content is comparatively repetitive meaning that once you have it down that's just it, there is a point where progression stops. As for PvP, its something that there will always be room to improve in because no 2 situations are the same, there are no set roles, and there are more variables.

So since PvP requires more skill, has more replay value and is more fun, in addition to being more competitive, it would make sense for it to be the true endgame. Especially when you factor in that you have to be high level just to compete, I would say it is highly accurate to refer to PvP as the true endgame.

I cannot emphasize enough the skill gap between good PvP players and pure PvEers. It is astronomical and those of us who play PvP deserve recognition. I would agree that veteran trials are undoubtedly endgame, but ultimately those are less competitive than PvP and PvP has a higher skill cap generally speaking and more variety.

I still just see vet dungeons as a means to get gear, not as a really specific part of endgame. I enjoy them a lot, but put them fairly close to the level of a public dungeon/delve. They do make up a significant portion of PvE overall.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

IMO, for all its issues, ESO is the best PVP MMO available

that is true.

monktoasty wrote: »

This is why pvp is generally not practiced by a majority of players in all mmos..because it's full of arrogant elitists and children.

Pvp is not true end game..it's a feature for those extremely small amounts of people who like it. That's your end game and that's finexpensive. But don't trash on pvers who probably wouldn't mind pvp if it wasnt so mentally taxing dealing with immature people whispering how much u Sux

Actually the real reason more people don't play it is because it requires a lot more skill and is a lot harder. It's much more fast paced meaning you need to have good reaction times/reflexes if you want to hope to compete.

Anyone who is vocal about being against PvP, simply did not find success in it themselves. If they did they'd be playing it. But because they kept getting owned again and again, repeatedly, they feel the need to trash talk the game mode because they know they'll never be able to compete in it.

Basically, PvP is for those of us who are really good at the game. I think that's the best way to look at it.

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Blanco PVP and PVE are completely different builds with completely focus and play style. I wouldn't say PVP requires "more skill" but I would say it requires "different skills".

If you take any end game trials group and get them to spend as much time learning how to co-ordinate as a PVP group, getting geared up etc as they do to clear vMoL or vHoF and they will crush 95% of the time in PVP.

Yes, PVE players get wrecked when they go into PVP, of course they do. They have spent hours and hours perfecting their rotation so they can git gud and everything they have learned is useless in PVP.

Likewise if you take a PVP'er into a vet DLC dungeon you're going to have a bad time. They will either do very poor damage or they will be completely out of resources.

The exceptions of course are people who do both, understand both and 99% of the time have different characters for each.

Something this game does terribly is allow you to have 1 character you can take from PVP to PVE smoothly.
you want different skills, different morphs and different gear, and that's not even taking into account play style.

The thing with PvP is it requires a lot more movement and reflexes.

True that each require "different" skills. It's not like PvE doesn't require skill, I wouldn't say that.

But I had never even used a dodge roll in PvE, as an example. Dodge rolling basically doesn't exist in PvE. You always have a healer by your side. You don't have to worry about managing resources as much. Rotations take skill but it's nothing a little practice won't grant. Also in PvE there are breaks, the boss will stop attacking you and go to another group member for example. So I would really have to say PvE is a lot slower paced.

So it is true that both require different skill, but PvE is also much more relaxed. The hardest part of PvE are the one-shot mechanics from bosses and usually it will just take a couple wipes before the group gets what to do. I did a lot of all of the hard dlc dungeons before they were nerfed vWGT, vCoS, vRoM, no deathed them and speedran some of them and I enjoyed it and it does take skill, but it just isn't as hard.

You are greatly exaggerating both the difficulty of PVP and the ease of PVE. "Never dodge roll" in PVE? Really? It's literally the only way to not die in vCoS. And how is that a metric for difficulty anyway?

More movement and reflexes? Than the twins in vMoL? Than vICP warden dusk? Not from what I've seen.
I'm not a dedicated PVP'er but I've done my share. Some people will smash me every time. Enough of the time it goes the other way however.
I hate to say it but breaking line of sight, coordinating your ults and sticking together to share vigors isn't exactly black magic and it's certainly easier than passing the pinion around in vWGT.

Most of the time PVP is about threat assessment. Can you take that player / group or should you run and hide? Can you bait out a few people from the zerg so you can kill them or not?

To which I will rebut: go solo in Cyro and take on a group of 5 good CP 690s 1v5. Go on.

According to you PvP isn't that hard, so that must be easy right? It's not that hard, taking on a group 1v5 is about on the level of the warden dusk fight, amirite? LUL. Because it's so hard to jump in the blue thing on the ground. Yup!

It's not like taking on 5 good players 1v5 is next to impossible, right? No they're about the same.

I challenge you to beat all of the best players in the game in a duel. That's right, go and duel every single player who is good and beat them all. PvP is pretty easy right, so it shouldn't be that hard. Never mind that nobody can beat every other good player in a duel!

Yup, zerging doesn't require skill but being good in PvP does. Just like how Pv Door doesn't require skill. Solo play, duels, and small scale is where the skill is.

This is a game that appeals to many different people.

This is a game that has many varied aspects to suit those many different people.

I have been mostly a quester, that is PvE and not End Game PvE.

I have recently started doing Trials after having completed most of the normal and vet lvl 1 & normal lvl 2 dungeons in a team of 2.

I have recently started doing PvP in Kyne (for below lvl50) and on a few of my CP690+ toons in Shor.

My problem with End Game PvE is that when you can find groups or a guild for trial is's not easy to organise runs..... especially if your new at it...

My problem with PvP is that when there is a lot of action it's good and when there is no action it's bad... and it's hard to do if your solo unless you're really good

I think that there needs to be a middle ground..... and that is not an easy thing

Short answer
Cyrodiil makes 0 money
Crown crates makes HEAPS OF MONEY
(before you get any bright ideas, for investors pockets not for anything like server upgrades or stability controls)

Lexxypwns wrote: »

IMO, for all its issues, ESO is the best PVP MMO available

Consoles, your statement may be correct. But for pc there games that do what eso does but much better.
-large scale pvp (gw2),
-small scale pvp (gw2, wow, swtor),
-end game content (gw2, wow)
-even some add social content just so players can have fun with their guild mates (gw2)

But alot of this is done to infrastructure and details in the content provide. (There are many threads on this and i pesonal have mentioned some little fixes to pvp that would make it the best pvp experience).
Just really hope they have learnt something while everyone ones been in a load screen