ArchMikem wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Slavery
One can not speak of House Telvanni without mentioning slavery. Honestly, I was quite disappointed by ESO: Morrowind's quests relating to slavery. The dialogue assumes the character to have real-world Western values where slavery is atrocious. While I am not asking for the player character to be forced to agree with slavery, I want there to be options. Not every character wants to be the hero. Some simply wish to follow a tradition they see as right. While we (assuming you live in a first-world country) may see this practice as barbaric and cruel, the people of Morrowind see it as tradition. House Telvanni believes that power confers right, and slaves are powerless, meaning they must be controlled lest their pure Dunmeri culture be tainted. I understand that some are too close-minded to understad such a mindset, but it truly is an interesting one to explore.

If you want there to be the option for us to support Slavery, then I also want the option to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Slave Master I come across.

Only fair.

If you want there to be the option for us to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Master you come across, then I also want the option to slaughter and enslave every filthy scaleback scum I come across.

You see the dilemma? I'm asking for dialogue options that allow for more roleplaying freedom. You're asking for an entirely new gameplay system which is biased to one extreme side. How could more dialogue choices hurt you? Simply don't choose them; RP is essential to the MMORPG genre.

Don't act like you've never played a 'bad' character before. You've probably done either the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood quests, and if you haven't, you've probably ruined some poor NPC's livelihood forcing him into eternal debt by pickpocketing his only valuables. Or maybe you killed some NPC of an adjacent alliance in PvE who had a family that is now cast into deep depression all because of your acts. Do you think all of those soldiers were volunteers? Many were probably drafted against their will. They didn't want to fight. They just wanted to live, and you took that from them. You took that from their families.

Do you see this moral dilemma where anything anyone does can be morally "evil?" This is why I despise moral arguments. Morality is different to everyone, especially to our fictional characters who grew up with different values. Why should my Telvanni have contemporary western values?

Don't tell me that murder and thievery are perfectly A OK when slavery is some magical line you won't cross. There is this backwards moral compass I come across all too often on these forums where acts such as genocide and torture are acceptable to discuss while slavery is some sacred topic were any sort of discussion on the matter will cause you to be struck down by furious lightning on the spot.

This is by no means the point of this thread, however, so do not continue to derail the topic. Just because you are too close-minded to tolerate fictional morality doesn't mean you should let everyone know.

To get back on topic: What unique aspects do you think ZOS could add to Port Telvannis? What sort of personalities, dialects, landscape, etc. would you expect to see? I, for one, think it would be neat if we were able to progress through a Telvanni 'guild' skill-line.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Choosing to not free the slaves makes quests rather short if it is a dialogue option. But perhaps you can betray slaves on the run that trust you to help them. That would be fun and easy to program.

Necromancy - yes. Telvanni skill line - no. More green in the mushroom towers - yes. Towns with levitation pads - oh so much yes (might have bad fps though).
I would expect the landscape to be similar to Azura's Coast and the Ascadian Isles but perhaps with more volcanic cliff coasts. As for housing I'd like to see smaller Telvanni themed Houses and perhaps a Daedric ruin. There could also be a tower as a battleground arena, which could have stairs on the outside like in TES III, which would give a new dimension to a fight (up-down) and it would make you more cautious about where you walk as you could easily fall to your death. Not sure if any of these ideas are really good but that's what came to my mind first.

(@MythicEmperor do you know there is an RP guild on EU called Great House Telvanni? We can always use more like-minded people)

Your ideas all sound amazing!

Note: I wasn't asking for an option to not free slaves; I simply think that quests shouldn't revolve around freeing them. I just don't want my Telvanni being forced to ask NPC's how they can "stomach" slavery through quest dialogue like you have to in the base game.

Now that I think about it, however, this concept would make for interesting dailies. Perhaps on the one hand an Argonian Telvanni of status could issue dailies to sneakily free slaves, while a traditional Dunmer could ask for help capturing runaway slaves. Or, to put a spin on things, the races could be reversed (House Telvanni is a meritocracy, after all). The dailies (which are optional) would allow close-minded players to avoid being pro-slavery, so long as they make the quest dialogue neutral or provide options leaning both ways.

My wish for a Telvanni skill-line primarily comes from the dissapointment of not being able to join in ESO: Morrowind, but if you could simply 'join' the house through questing it would suffice. I just find it irritating when you do all of the work but an NPC gets the reward.

On a final note, I would absolutely loveto join you guys as you seem really cool (and my current Telvanni RP guild grew inactive), but alas! I am on the NA server.

ArchMikem wrote: »

I, personally, just don't have the heart to roleplay as a malevolent character. The negative acts I've committed through my characters I've done so through establishing some kind of morally..."acceptable", justification for them. The Dark Brotherhood Questline? I only used the Brotherhood in order to remove the Order's treachery from The Gold Coast. 99% of the time my Blade of Woe has only cut those either with blood on their own hands, or combatants that were in my way. The rest of the time is accidentally attacking innocent NPCs with an errant button press or I forgot to turn "Prevent Attacking Innocents" back on and It was impossible to leave the area while being attacked by a provoked NPC. I regretted having to kill someone in the Mage's Guild because they saw me stealing a piece for Kari's Hit List, and with two Guards by the only exit there was no way I could leave conventionally nor by Fast Travel while being assaulted. Whenever I go on Pickpocketting/Killing sprees with my Nightblade to make some gold? It's always at the Anvil Castle where every target is a Red Sails Pirate who undoubtedly *** and Pillaged elsewhere.

Understand, someone stealing your pocket watch is not the end of your world. Even being killed, though being the end of your world in every sense, is not the end of the world for others who knew you. Slavery. That's an ultimate sin. Slavery is the end of your world while you're still alive. Forced to suffer "living" as nothing but a piece of property. When you have a mind, a personality, an imagination, a soul, only to be regarded as a tool to handle, beat, use, and dispose. A person only gets one life in this existence, and they are born with the right to live it freely on their own terms. "An impoverished free Man is better off than a well cared for Slave."

When I played through the Argonian's Questline in Sadrith Mora, I had to suffer watching scared, desperate, hopeful fellow Khajiit get recaptured by Telvanni. One of them took up a blade to defend his freedom from being stolen again and was killed for it. And as they were marched back into cages, or worse, all I could do was stand there. Me. The Vestige, Hero of Tamriel and Coldharbour, and Alliance Champion thrice over. I couldn't do a thing to give those Khajiit the lives they deserved. To see the warm sands of Home one more time, and feel safe.

sigh

Yeah I can be a *** at times in the game. My Characters have robbed, murdered. They do it with heavy hearts, but they do it nonetheless, and will continue to do so. But Slavery is still a line in the sand for me.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

To get back on topic: What unique aspects do you think ZOS could add to Port Telvannis? What sort of personalities, dialects, landscape, etc. would you expect to see? I, for one, think it would be neat if we were able to progress through a Telvanni 'guild' skill-line.

Frankly I have no idea. I don't know what that city is like, was it featured in TES: III? Making a Telvanni specific "Guild" Skill Tree wouldn't be a bad idea if it followed the Brotherhood and Thieve's Trees. But since the Telvanni are known for powerful Mages, and we already have a Mage's Guild Skill Tree, I've no clue what their Tree would be.

I understand that some have difficulty making a distinction between themselves and their characters. Others, however, enjoy playing the "bad guy," which I personally find far more interesting than playing someone with my values. I'm already playing a fictional creature in a fictional world. Why would this character represent my views? Anyways, I feel I have to stress this line in fear of @ZOS shutting the thread down (as they have done to me in the past).

Now that that is out of the way: whether you can "stomach" the morality of a particular region or not, the morality is still there. You wishing bad thing didn't happen in real life doesn't prevent them from happening. Slavery and segregation still unfortunately happen today, and it is a real tragedy. Nirn is not Earth, however. There are two sides to every coin, and a world where every culture holds the same views is a bland one. If you want to be completely anti-slavery, I'm sure that'll be covered in a Black Marsh DLC. Morality is regional, which is why I refuse to use it as an argument. It is ultimately an invention for mutual benefit, but some things benefit cultures differently.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Slavery
One can not speak of House Telvanni without mentioning slavery. Honestly, I was quite disappointed by ESO: Morrowind's quests relating to slavery. The dialogue assumes the character to have real-world Western values where slavery is atrocious. While I am not asking for the player character to be forced to agree with slavery, I want there to be options. Not every character wants to be the hero. Some simply wish to follow a tradition they see as right. While we (assuming you live in a first-world country) may see this practice as barbaric and cruel, the people of Morrowind see it as tradition. House Telvanni believes that power confers right, and slaves are powerless, meaning they must be controlled lest their pure Dunmeri culture be tainted. I understand that some are too close-minded to understad such a mindset, but it truly is an interesting one to explore.

If you want there to be the option for us to support Slavery, then I also want the option to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Slave Master I come across.

Only fair.

If you want there to be the option for us to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Master you come across, then I also want the option to slaughter and enslave every filthy scaleback scum I come across.

You see the dilemma? I'm asking for dialogue options that allow for more roleplaying freedom. You're asking for an entirely new gameplay system which is biased to one extreme side. How could more dialogue choices hurt you? Simply don't choose them; RP is essential to the MMORPG genre.

Don't act like you've never played a 'bad' character before. You've probably done either the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood quests, and if you haven't, you've probably ruined some poor NPC's livelihood forcing him into eternal debt by pickpocketing his only valuables. Or maybe you killed some NPC of an adjacent alliance in PvE who had a family that is now cast into deep depression all because of your acts. Do you think all of those soldiers were volunteers? Many were probably drafted against their will. They didn't want to fight. They just wanted to live, and you took that from them. You took that from their families.

Do you see this moral dilemma where anything anyone does can be morally "evil?" This is why I despise moral arguments. Morality is different to everyone, especially to our fictional characters who grew up with different values. Why should my Telvanni have contemporary western values?

Don't tell me that murder and thievery are perfectly A OK when slavery is some magical line you won't cross. There is this backwards moral compass I come across all too often on these forums where acts such as genocide and torture are acceptable to discuss while slavery is some sacred topic were any sort of discussion on the matter will cause you to be struck down by furious lightning on the spot.

This is by no means the point of this thread, however, so do not continue to derail the topic. Just because you are too close-minded to tolerate fictional morality doesn't mean you should let everyone know.

To get back on topic: What unique aspects do you think ZOS could add to Port Telvannis? What sort of personalities, dialects, landscape, etc. would you expect to see? I, for one, think it would be neat if we were able to progress through a Telvanni 'guild' skill-line.

I love how you need to type of up an essay justifying this. It really shows your character.

The mans statement, and opinion, does not change.

Also, Fun fact: Slavery is abhorrant to most regions in Tamriel, hence why it is actively -illegal- in all places at this time except two: Vvardenfell, and Hews Bane, which is so corrupt the law is outright ignored. Because oddly enough, most people do not want to be enslaved, and considering the major religion is a peacefull and empathetic one, you do not have a leg to stand on to claim this is commonplace for -most people-.

Allow me to correct a bit of misinformation: Slavery is legal in all of Morrowind; the enslavement of Pact races is illegal in all but Eastern Vvardenfell (House Redoran joined the Pact and they control western Vvardenfell), the Telvanni Coast (the piece of land that juts out to the east of Morrowind), and Port Telvannis. If "Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!" is to be taken seriously, however, then slavery is still legal in eastern Vvardenfell, the Telvanni Coast, and Port Telvannis. (Edit: I forgot to mention that House Dres is specifically excluded from the list of Great Houses who accepted this supposed slavery ban according to the sketchy pamphlet, meaning that the enslavement of non-Pact races is still commonplace in large portions of the base game, which is evident by the Khajiit slaves that can be found in Stonefalls and, iirc, Deshaan)

"Abusive fantasies?" I hate slavery. It is a terrible and barbaric institution. My Telvanni Master loves it, however. I can, unlike some, draw the line between fiction and reality.

[...]

As for 'unable to seperate fiction and reality', let me make this point perfectly clear.

If you were not invested in the continual appearence, depiction, and from your own post, glorification of Slavery, you would not be arguing it. If you are this ready to type up defense after defense, some part of you wants to see it. And I suggest you take it as a warning sign, and seek psychiatric help.

Furthermore, attempting to brute force me into playing through what you want to play despite the fact it clashes with my characters values and my own, saying I'm a sensative snowflake who cant leave they're own prejudice at the door, is nonsense. I can. I just dont want to.

So on one hand you accuse others for playing a character with different moral attitudes than you own, on the other you state outright that you don't want to let go of your real life morality for your own character. Which means you judge other people's character by your own real life standards. I think the accusation to be unable to seperate fiction and reality stands just fine in that case.

I am all for murdering Telvanni slavers.

I have zero interest in being railroaded into helping slaves be recaptured (again) or being railroaded into being 'tricked' by some other stuck up Magister/their minions because there are literally no other options to progress the quest and he has plot armor keeping him alive until the end of the next Era. (And the Mouth's lackeys were actually worse in that respect.) It doesn't make the Telvanni look clever, it makes the writing look sloppy; the last quest I remember railroading me that badly was back in Oblivion.

I seem to recall ships made out of chitin being mentioned in the Wolf Queen books, although I don't believe those were Telvanni-specific, some of those would be cool. I'd like to see a quest or lorebook(s) for Telvanni Bug
Musk. Maybe build a mushroom tower. Or some quests giving more detail about the Kamal invasion. Or get some more lore about the Dreugh! The Ruddy Man quest felt like scratching the surface there.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Slavery
One can not speak of House Telvanni without mentioning slavery. Honestly, I was quite disappointed by ESO: Morrowind's quests relating to slavery. The dialogue assumes the character to have real-world Western values where slavery is atrocious. While I am not asking for the player character to be forced to agree with slavery, I want there to be options. Not every character wants to be the hero. Some simply wish to follow a tradition they see as right. While we (assuming you live in a first-world country) may see this practice as barbaric and cruel, the people of Morrowind see it as tradition. House Telvanni believes that power confers right, and slaves are powerless, meaning they must be controlled lest their pure Dunmeri culture be tainted. I understand that some are too close-minded to understad such a mindset, but it truly is an interesting one to explore.

If you want there to be the option for us to support Slavery, then I also want the option to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Slave Master I come across.

Only fair.

If you want there to be the option for us to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Master you come across, then I also want the option to slaughter and enslave every filthy scaleback scum I come across.

You see the dilemma? I'm asking for dialogue options that allow for more roleplaying freedom. You're asking for an entirely new gameplay system which is biased to one extreme side. How could more dialogue choices hurt you? Simply don't choose them; RP is essential to the MMORPG genre.

Don't act like you've never played a 'bad' character before. You've probably done either the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood quests, and if you haven't, you've probably ruined some poor NPC's livelihood forcing him into eternal debt by pickpocketing his only valuables. Or maybe you killed some NPC of an adjacent alliance in PvE who had a family that is now cast into deep depression all because of your acts. Do you think all of those soldiers were volunteers? Many were probably drafted against their will. They didn't want to fight. They just wanted to live, and you took that from them. You took that from their families.

Do you see this moral dilemma where anything anyone does can be morally "evil?" This is why I despise moral arguments. Morality is different to everyone, especially to our fictional characters who grew up with different values. Why should my Telvanni have contemporary western values?

Don't tell me that murder and thievery are perfectly A OK when slavery is some magical line you won't cross. There is this backwards moral compass I come across all too often on these forums where acts such as genocide and torture are acceptable to discuss while slavery is some sacred topic were any sort of discussion on the matter will cause you to be struck down by furious lightning on the spot.

This is by no means the point of this thread, however, so do not continue to derail the topic. Just because you are too close-minded to tolerate fictional morality doesn't mean you should let everyone know.

To get back on topic: What unique aspects do you think ZOS could add to Port Telvannis? What sort of personalities, dialects, landscape, etc. would you expect to see? I, for one, think it would be neat if we were able to progress through a Telvanni 'guild' skill-line.

I love how you need to type of up an essay justifying this. It really shows your character.

The mans statement, and opinion, does not change.

Also, Fun fact: Slavery is abhorrant to most regions in Tamriel, hence why it is actively -illegal- in all places at this time except two: Vvardenfell, and Hews Bane, which is so corrupt the law is outright ignored. Because oddly enough, most people do not want to be enslaved, and considering the major religion is a peacefull and empathetic one, you do not have a leg to stand on to claim this is commonplace for -most people-.

Allow me to correct a bit of misinformation: Slavery is legal in all of Morrowind; the enslavement of Pact races is illegal in all but Eastern Vvardenfell (House Redoran joined the Pact and they control western Vvardenfell), the Telvanni Coast (the piece of land that juts out to the east of Morrowind), and Port Telvannis. If "Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!" is to be taken seriously, however, then slavery is still legal in eastern Vvardenfell, the Telvanni Coast, and Port Telvannis. (Edit: I forgot to mention that House Dres is specifically excluded from the list of Great Houses who accepted this supposed slavery ban according to the sketchy pamphlet, meaning that the enslavement of non-Pact races is still commonplace in large portions of the base game, which is evident by the Khajiit slaves that can be found in Stonefalls and, iirc, Deshaan)

"Abusive fantasies?" I hate slavery. It is a terrible and barbaric institution. My Telvanni Master loves it, however. I can, unlike some, draw the line between fiction and reality.

There's some despute over that, actually.

It's banned on a house by house basis, and while Kragenmoor exists apparently it's soft retconned in Morrowind. Apparently, the Pact outright banned it, however, Vvardenfell refused to join the pact. This does not excluse the -rest of the world- however, so my point still holds.

((I didn't do enough to research sources for this apparent change, and quite frankly I dont feel like going back enough to check. But I heard -alot- of chatter about it, and specifically how many Dunmer RPers hated it and refused to use it, fleeing to headcannon. So there you go.))

As for 'unable to seperate fiction and reality', let me make this point perfectly clear.

If you were not invested in the continual appearence, depiction, and from your own post, glorification of Slavery, you would not be arguing it. If you are this ready to type up defense after defense, some part of you wants to see it. And I suggest you take it as a warning sign, and seek psychiatric help.

Furthermore, attempting to brute force me into playing through what you want to play despite the fact it clashes with my characters values and my own, saying I'm a sensative snowflake who cant leave they're own prejudice at the door, is nonsense. I can. I just dont want to.

Allow me to further correct a bit of misinformation. I will use dorect quotes from the Pact Pamphlet this time in order to make things absolutely clear (as it seems you haven't read it).

Yes, the pamplet says that slaves are now "FREE* and INDEPENDENT*." Note the asterisks; it later goes on to clarify: "(*The following Great Houses of the Dark Elves have agreed to and will honor this stipulation: Indoril, Hlaalu, and Redoran. Citizenship and freedom are not gauranteed in other Dark Elf territories.)" This means, as I said, that slavery is still legal in House Telvanni and House Dres, the latter having a large presence in mainland Morrowind (notably in the base game).

This effectively renders the pamphlet as meaningless as the Houses who agreed to it aren't the Houses depicted as owning slaves in the base game (unless I missed a minor detail; feel free to correct me with evidence if I am wrong).

Furthermore, I never wanted to "brute force" anyone into playing a pro-slavery character. If you had read my posts rather than assuming me to be some slave-loving fanatic IRL, I simply asked for more dialogue choices. This means I want player characters to be able to say both, "Slavery is disgusting," and "Slavery is tradition," rather than being "brute" forced into saying the former. I never asked for you to be forced into helping slaves (which is why I offered it as an optional daily which I immediately contrasted with another optional daily that would allow you to free slaves!). I simply want my 'bad' character to be able to choose more suitable options via quest dialogue.

I will not continue to argue the 'difference between fiction and fantasy' argument as @ToRelax has done so brilliantly.

Because people just love to derail my threads into a discussion of lore slavery, let's give the topic a break (unless, of course, you want to talk about how it could be used in the potential DLC).

How do you guys think that necromancy could be used in a Telvanni way?

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Hello all! Being an avid fan of House Telvanni, I want little more out of ESO than more Telvanni content. These points, while tailored to Port Telvannis, could also be applied to a Telvanni Coast Chapter.

Necromancy
Necromancy is a key point that many tend to overlook when speaking about Morrowind. Many are under the false assumption that Necromancy is outlawed in its entirety. This is far from the truth. According to "Ancestors and the Dunmer (Abridged)," which can be found within ESO, "The Dark Elves would never think of practicing sorcerous necromancy upon any Dark Elf or upon the remains of any Elf. However, Dark Elves consider the human and Orcish races to be little more than animals. There is no injunction against necromancy upon such remains, or on the remains of any animal, bird, or insect." Should this information that strays from the key topic of Dunmer ancestors be important enough to include in an abridged edition of the book, it must be significant. Of all the Great Houses, House Telvanni (being tolerant of vampires, which the other Houses fanatically hunt) is the most likely candidate for the source of this inclusion. It would add a unique spin to the DLC as necromancy is typically seen as "evil," as subjective as that label is. Societies tend to shun necromancers, forcing them into hiding. A culture where necromancy is commonly practiced on animals and 'lesser' races would be an interesting one to explore as it would be nothing like we've ever seen.

Slavery
One can not speak of House Telvanni without mentioning slavery. Honestly, I was quite disappointed by ESO: Morrowind's quests relating to slavery. The dialogue assumes the character to have real-world Western values where slavery is atrocious. While I am not asking for the player character to be forced to agree with slavery, I want there to be options. Not every character wants to be the hero. Some simply wish to follow a tradition they see as right. While we (assuming you live in a first-world country) may see this practice as barbaric and cruel, the people of Morrowind see it as tradition. House Telvanni believes that power confers right, and slaves are powerless, meaning they must be controlled lest their pure Dunmeri culture be tainted. I understand that some are too close-minded to understad such a mindset, but it truly is an interesting one to explore.

Magic and Towers
More important to House Telvanni than slavery, magic acts as the foundation to the Great House. It should be a key component in the story and setting. It would be interesting to see a more widespread usage of levitation 'pads' when simply traversing the city. Furthermore, many (including myself) dislike the relatively putrid Telvanni "flesh atronach" design which sits atop a stone foundation. This can be fixed in a manner corresponding to the new tower lore. How? Magic. It is now 'known' that the more developed the mage, the more developed the fungus covering the tower. If it is known that the stone is eventually consumed entirely, what place would be more suitable for entirely mushroom towers than Port Telvannis? The new towers could also have a darker brown-green coloration which could be ascribed to a differing climate.

These are just a few ideas regarding Port Telvannis that have been circulating through my head. Hopefully this information will be of some value to someone.

Elven flawed belief in their superiority is why the warrior wave and the doom drum has wiped out many of their species. It would not surprise me in elder scrolls if the elves die out or move on some day. Nirn is man's world, and the elves are lucky to live in it. In the story of the Warrior Wave I really can't feel sorry for any of the elves that the Ra Gada defeated. Coming in peace after a brutal war with necromantic elves they ended up on the shores of Tamriel only to find elves summoning their dead fathers and grandfathers to wage war against them. The Ayleids were wiped out for their 'superiority', desire to destroy the world, and daedric/necromantic dealings. The Chimer were little different. The Altmer definitely have it in their cultural dna for sure as we see with the likes of the Veiled Queen. All of that being said I think the dark side of the elves (Mer) is part of what makes the series interesting. They are not all so bad but there are cultural elements which make them vile to outsiders.

I say all of that from the outside looking in. The world they create is interesting and feels more real exactly because of these flawed qualities. It makes these alien creatures 'elves' more interesting because of their strange mind set. It makes the elves more interesting because they show great heights of intelligence and beauty while also showing a myopic look at the world and in some cases sheer stupid hubris. The Telvanni are no exception but they have a defining concept: Superiority through Power or Might makes right. In some cases this means that a powerful Telvanni will do good purely because he is powerful enough to do so. I'm saying all of this in essence to say that I agree with you on your initial points.

House Telvanni would most certainly play with bone magic and soul magic. There is nothing profane in their view, only knowledge. Additionally, I think from a point of good narration it would make more sense that this clinical view of the matter would be a better approach to players discovering necromancy (I would argue that some Warden and Nightblade abilities already fit this bill, as does Soul Magic though). The big problem I have with a Necromancer class is the problem that it is the realm of Molag Bal and the player character has just been zombified before (s)he escapes the Wailing Prison. It would seem odd for this same character to publically be a zombie herder after this experience in the main story arc. This is why I've always felt this should come as an offshoot of Spellcrafting (Please, I hope it happens. Cross your fingers people.). I always saw it as something they could tack onto Spellcrafting as an option or side quest that leads you down the rabbit hole of ickitude. I like the idea of giving this its own skill line (or lines) rather than creating a new class. My problem with adding more classes to the game is essentially that I already am unhappy with classes as it is. We don't need to make more characters and I'd rather play this skill line on other classes, particularly since its not common knowledge. Additionally, due to the soulburst and the storyline it just makes sense all classes would have some understanding of these processes.

I would love to see Port Telvannis and Telvanni Isles. This is something I've wanted to see in a TES game for a very long time. High on my wish list as well is to see Solstheim again, Murkmire, and the Crystal Tower and its surrounding countryside. While less likely I'd also love to see Akavir, Pyandonea, the Psijic Isle of Artaeum, and Atmora. I'm interested in seeing Atmora though I have a sneaking suspicion it might be Solstheim.

So in practice, we just had a DLC about Morrowind. And the Clockwork City. You want more Dark Elves content?

Honestly, I like a lot Llayne Sadri and Naryu. Really, I wish they would permanently live in my manor. But I'd rather have more Skyrim territory released, or some non robotic region that we have never seen in the series.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Slavery
One can not speak of House Telvanni without mentioning slavery. Honestly, I was quite disappointed by ESO: Morrowind's quests relating to slavery. The dialogue assumes the character to have real-world Western values where slavery is atrocious. While I am not asking for the player character to be forced to agree with slavery, I want there to be options. Not every character wants to be the hero. Some simply wish to follow a tradition they see as right. While we (assuming you live in a first-world country) may see this practice as barbaric and cruel, the people of Morrowind see it as tradition. House Telvanni believes that power confers right, and slaves are powerless, meaning they must be controlled lest their pure Dunmeri culture be tainted. I understand that some are too close-minded to understad such a mindset, but it truly is an interesting one to explore.

If you want there to be the option for us to support Slavery, then I also want the option to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Slave Master I come across.

Only fair.

If you want there to be the option for us to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Master you come across, then I also want the option to slaughter and enslave every filthy scaleback scum I come across.

You see the dilemma? I'm asking for dialogue options that allow for more roleplaying freedom. You're asking for an entirely new gameplay system which is biased to one extreme side. How could more dialogue choices hurt you? Simply don't choose them; RP is essential to the MMORPG genre.

Don't act like you've never played a 'bad' character before. You've probably done either the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood quests, and if you haven't, you've probably ruined some poor NPC's livelihood forcing him into eternal debt by pickpocketing his only valuables. Or maybe you killed some NPC of an adjacent alliance in PvE who had a family that is now cast into deep depression all because of your acts. Do you think all of those soldiers were volunteers? Many were probably drafted against their will. They didn't want to fight. They just wanted to live, and you took that from them. You took that from their families.

Do you see this moral dilemma where anything anyone does can be morally "evil?" This is why I despise moral arguments. Morality is different to everyone, especially to our fictional characters who grew up with different values. Why should my Telvanni have contemporary western values?

Don't tell me that murder and thievery are perfectly A OK when slavery is some magical line you won't cross. There is this backwards moral compass I come across all too often on these forums where acts such as genocide and torture are acceptable to discuss while slavery is some sacred topic were any sort of discussion on the matter will cause you to be struck down by furious lightning on the spot.

This is by no means the point of this thread, however, so do not continue to derail the topic. Just because you are too close-minded to tolerate fictional morality doesn't mean you should let everyone know.

To get back on topic: What unique aspects do you think ZOS could add to Port Telvannis? What sort of personalities, dialects, landscape, etc. would you expect to see? I, for one, think it would be neat if we were able to progress through a Telvanni 'guild' skill-line.

I love how you need to type of up an essay justifying this. It really shows your character.

The mans statement, and opinion, does not change.

Also, Fun fact: Slavery is abhorrant to most regions in Tamriel, hence why it is actively -illegal- in all places at this time except two: Vvardenfell, and Hews Bane, which is so corrupt the law is outright ignored. Because oddly enough, most people do not want to be enslaved, and considering the major religion is a peacefull and empathetic one, you do not have a leg to stand on to claim this is commonplace for -most people-.

Allow me to correct a bit of misinformation: Slavery is legal in all of Morrowind; the enslavement of Pact races is illegal in all but Eastern Vvardenfell (House Redoran joined the Pact and they control western Vvardenfell), the Telvanni Coast (the piece of land that juts out to the east of Morrowind), and Port Telvannis. If "Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!" is to be taken seriously, however, then slavery is still legal in eastern Vvardenfell, the Telvanni Coast, and Port Telvannis. (Edit: I forgot to mention that House Dres is specifically excluded from the list of Great Houses who accepted this supposed slavery ban according to the sketchy pamphlet, meaning that the enslavement of non-Pact races is still commonplace in large portions of the base game, which is evident by the Khajiit slaves that can be found in Stonefalls and, iirc, Deshaan)

"Abusive fantasies?" I hate slavery. It is a terrible and barbaric institution. My Telvanni Master loves it, however. I can, unlike some, draw the line between fiction and reality.

There's some despute over that, actually.

It's banned on a house by house basis, and while Kragenmoor exists apparently it's soft retconned in Morrowind. Apparently, the Pact outright banned it, however, Vvardenfell refused to join the pact. This does not excluse the -rest of the world- however, so my point still holds.

((I didn't do enough to research sources for this apparent change, and quite frankly I dont feel like going back enough to check. But I heard -alot- of chatter about it, and specifically how many Dunmer RPers hated it and refused to use it, fleeing to headcannon. So there you go.))

As for 'unable to seperate fiction and reality', let me make this point perfectly clear.

If you were not invested in the continual appearence, depiction, and from your own post, glorification of Slavery, you would not be arguing it. If you are this ready to type up defense after defense, some part of you wants to see it. And I suggest you take it as a warning sign, and seek psychiatric help.

Furthermore, attempting to brute force me into playing through what you want to play despite the fact it clashes with my characters values and my own, saying I'm a sensative snowflake who cant leave they're own prejudice at the door, is nonsense. I can. I just dont want to.

Allow me to further correct a bit of misinformation. I will use dorect quotes from the Pact Pamphlet this time in order to make things absolutely clear (as it seems you haven't read it).

Yes, the pamplet says that slaves are now "FREE* and INDEPENDENT*." Note the asterisks; it later goes on to clarify: "(*The following Great Houses of the Dark Elves have agreed to and will honor this stipulation: Indoril, Hlaalu, and Redoran. Citizenship and freedom are not gauranteed in other Dark Elf territories.)" This means, as I said, that slavery is still legal in House Telvanni and House Dres, the latter having a large presence in mainland Morrowind (notably in the base game).

This effectively renders the pamphlet as meaningless as the Houses who agreed to it aren't the Houses depicted as owning slaves in the base game (unless I missed a minor detail; feel free to correct me with evidence if I am wrong).

Furthermore, I never wanted to "brute force" anyone into playing a pro-slavery character. If you had read my posts rather than assuming me to be some slave-loving fanatic IRL, I simply asked for more dialogue choices. This means I want player characters to be able to say both, "Slavery is disgusting," and "Slavery is tradition," rather than being "brute" forced into saying the former. I never asked for you to be forced into helping slaves (which is why I offered it as an optional daily which I immediately contrasted with another optional daily that would allow you to free slaves!). I simply want my 'bad' character to be able to choose more suitable options via quest dialogue.

I will not continue to argue the 'difference between fiction and fantasy' argument as @ToRelax has done so brilliantly.

Seems to be about correct. Honestly, I wish they had never touched the slavery lore, it just muddied the waters.

As for the stuff as far as slavery, okay. You want choice. I want choice too. Hopefully the writing team will be able to do better in the future.

As for the 'fantasty vs fiction' arguement, and the rest of it, said my piece.

I can definitely agree with your first two points here. They really confused so much with a single pamphlet that seems unofficial and propaganda-like.

As for choice: I play a wide range of characters, all with differing views and values. Yes, I main a conservative Telvanni, but I also have a 'liberal' (as far as a Dunmer can be) Hlaalu who finds slavery distasteful. I then have a dutiful Redoran who will follow anti-slavery laws simply because it is the will of the Pact, and therefore, the Tribunal. These are just my more thought out Dunmer characters, however.

I have a Nord who, while reluctant to let Argonians and Dunmer flood Skyrim because of the alliance, hates slavery and sees it as primitive. Several other characters hold similar views, while others are indifferent.

The thing is that my 'good' characters already have relatively appropriate dialogue, meaning that I need to stress the need for appropriate dialogue to suit my 'bad' characters.

Finally, if you want to kill slavers, there's a hostile Telvanni slaver camp in Shadowfen you can have at 25/8.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

So in practice, we just had a DLC about Morrowind. And the Clockwork City. You want more Dark Elves content?

Honestly, I like a lot Llayne Sadri and Naryu. Really, I wish they would permanently live in my manor. But I'd rather have more Skyrim territory released, or some non robotic region that we have never seen in the series.

If its going to be dark elves I want to see Mel Adrys leading some anti-monster Dawnguard type faction, or at least being one of its members. I like that guy and his hardline style.