Regarding Port Telvannis and its Potential as a DLC Story-Zone

dodgehopper_ESO

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Slavery
One can not speak of House Telvanni without mentioning slavery. Honestly, I was quite disappointed by ESO: Morrowind's quests relating to slavery. The dialogue assumes the character to have real-world Western values where slavery is atrocious. While I am not asking for the player character to be forced to agree with slavery, I want there to be options. Not every character wants to be the hero. Some simply wish to follow a tradition they see as right. While we (assuming you live in a first-world country) may see this practice as barbaric and cruel, the people of Morrowind see it as tradition. House Telvanni believes that power confers right, and slaves are powerless, meaning they must be controlled lest their pure Dunmeri culture be tainted. I understand that some are too close-minded to understad such a mindset, but it truly is an interesting one to explore.

If you want there to be the option for us to support Slavery, then I also want the option to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Slave Master I come across.

Only fair.

If you want there to be the option for us to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Master you come across, then I also want the option to slaughter and enslave every filthy scaleback scum I come across.

You see the dilemma? I'm asking for dialogue options that allow for more roleplaying freedom. You're asking for an entirely new gameplay system which is biased to one extreme side. How could more dialogue choices hurt you? Simply don't choose them; RP is essential to the MMORPG genre.

Don't act like you've never played a 'bad' character before. You've probably done either the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood quests, and if you haven't, you've probably ruined some poor NPC's livelihood forcing him into eternal debt by pickpocketing his only valuables. Or maybe you killed some NPC of an adjacent alliance in PvE who had a family that is now cast into deep depression all because of your acts. Do you think all of those soldiers were volunteers? Many were probably drafted against their will. They didn't want to fight. They just wanted to live, and you took that from them. You took that from their families.

Do you see this moral dilemma where anything anyone does can be morally "evil?" This is why I despise moral arguments. Morality is different to everyone, especially to our fictional characters who grew up with different values. Why should my Telvanni have contemporary western values?

Don't tell me that murder and thievery are perfectly A OK when slavery is some magical line you won't cross. There is this backwards moral compass I come across all too often on these forums where acts such as genocide and torture are acceptable to discuss while slavery is some sacred topic were any sort of discussion on the matter will cause you to be struck down by furious lightning on the spot.

This is by no means the point of this thread, however, so do not continue to derail the topic. Just because you are too close-minded to tolerate fictional morality doesn't mean you should let everyone know.

To get back on topic: What unique aspects do you think ZOS could add to Port Telvannis? What sort of personalities, dialects, landscape, etc. would you expect to see? I, for one, think it would be neat if we were able to progress through a Telvanni 'guild' skill-line.

I love how you need to type of up an essay justifying this. It really shows your character.

The mans statement, and opinion, does not change.

Also, Fun fact: Slavery is abhorrant to most regions in Tamriel, hence why it is actively -illegal- in all places at this time except two: Vvardenfell, and Hews Bane, which is so corrupt the law is outright ignored. Because oddly enough, most people do not want to be enslaved, and considering the major religion is a peacefull and empathetic one, you do not have a leg to stand on to claim this is commonplace for -most people-.

Allow me to correct a bit of misinformation: Slavery is legal in all of Morrowind; the enslavement of Pact races is illegal in all but Eastern Vvardenfell (House Redoran joined the Pact and they control western Vvardenfell), the Telvanni Coast (the piece of land that juts out to the east of Morrowind), and Port Telvannis. If "Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!" is to be taken seriously, however, then slavery is still legal in eastern Vvardenfell, the Telvanni Coast, and Port Telvannis. (Edit: I forgot to mention that House Dres is specifically excluded from the list of Great Houses who accepted this supposed slavery ban according to the sketchy pamphlet, meaning that the enslavement of non-Pact races is still commonplace in large portions of the base game, which is evident by the Khajiit slaves that can be found in Stonefalls and, iirc, Deshaan)

"Abusive fantasies?" I hate slavery. It is a terrible and barbaric institution. My Telvanni Master loves it, however. I can, unlike some, draw the line between fiction and reality.

There's some despute over that, actually.

It's banned on a house by house basis, and while Kragenmoor exists apparently it's soft retconned in Morrowind. Apparently, the Pact outright banned it, however, Vvardenfell refused to join the pact. This does not excluse the -rest of the world- however, so my point still holds.

((I didn't do enough to research sources for this apparent change, and quite frankly I dont feel like going back enough to check. But I heard -alot- of chatter about it, and specifically how many Dunmer RPers hated it and refused to use it, fleeing to headcannon. So there you go.))

As for 'unable to seperate fiction and reality', let me make this point perfectly clear.

If you were not invested in the continual appearence, depiction, and from your own post, glorification of Slavery, you would not be arguing it. If you are this ready to type up defense after defense, some part of you wants to see it. And I suggest you take it as a warning sign, and seek psychiatric help.

Furthermore, attempting to brute force me into playing through what you want to play despite the fact it clashes with my characters values and my own, saying I'm a sensative snowflake who cant leave they're own prejudice at the door, is nonsense. I can. I just dont want to.

Allow me to further correct a bit of misinformation. I will use dorect quotes from the Pact Pamphlet this time in order to make things absolutely clear (as it seems you haven't read it).

Yes, the pamplet says that slaves are now "FREE* and INDEPENDENT*." Note the asterisks; it later goes on to clarify: "(*The following Great Houses of the Dark Elves have agreed to and will honor this stipulation: Indoril, Hlaalu, and Redoran. Citizenship and freedom are not gauranteed in other Dark Elf territories.)" This means, as I said, that slavery is still legal in House Telvanni and House Dres, the latter having a large presence in mainland Morrowind (notably in the base game).

This effectively renders the pamphlet as meaningless as the Houses who agreed to it aren't the Houses depicted as owning slaves in the base game (unless I missed a minor detail; feel free to correct me with evidence if I am wrong).

Furthermore, I never wanted to "brute force" anyone into playing a pro-slavery character. If you had read my posts rather than assuming me to be some slave-loving fanatic IRL, I simply asked for more dialogue choices. This means I want player characters to be able to say both, "Slavery is disgusting," and "Slavery is tradition," rather than being "brute" forced into saying the former. I never asked for you to be forced into helping slaves (which is why I offered it as an optional daily which I immediately contrasted with another optional daily that would allow you to free slaves!). I simply want my 'bad' character to be able to choose more suitable options via quest dialogue.

I will not continue to argue the 'difference between fiction and fantasy' argument as @ToRelax has done so brilliantly.

Seems to be about correct. Honestly, I wish they had never touched the slavery lore, it just muddied the waters.

As for the stuff as far as slavery, okay. You want choice. I want choice too. Hopefully the writing team will be able to do better in the future.

As for the 'fantasty vs fiction' arguement, and the rest of it, said my piece.

I can definitely agree with your first two points here. They really confused so much with a single pamphlet that seems unofficial and propaganda-like.

As for choice: I play a wide range of characters, all with differing views and values. Yes, I main a conservative Telvanni, but I also have a 'liberal' (as far as a Dunmer can be) Hlaalu who finds slavery distasteful. I then have a dutiful Redoran who will follow anti-slavery laws simply because it is the will of the Pact, and therefore, the Tribunal. These are just my more thought out Dunmer characters, however.

I have a Nord who, while reluctant to let Argonians and Dunmer flood Skyrim because of the alliance, hates slavery and sees it as primitive. Several other characters hold similar views, while others are indifferent.

The thing is that my 'good' characters already have relatively appropriate dialogue, meaning that I need to stress the need for appropriate dialogue to suit my 'bad' characters.

Finally, if you want to kill slavers, there's a hostile Telvanni slaver camp in Shadowfen you can have at 25/8.

Like most storylines these days I find the 'good' storylines these days in games are neither all that good, or they're often not badass enough. The old John Wayne, Bruce Willis type style seems to be dying out. Heroes are either Riddick or complete superhero wusses. You never get a good guy who will crack skulls to stop evil. That's one thing I enjoyed about the Dawnguard in Skyrim. They were unrepentant in their disdain for Vampirism. They were badass. The mealy mouthed Fighters Guild just seems like a bunch of cheesy Mercs... which is exactly what they are. The Companions & the Dawnguard on the other hand are something I'd actually want to join.

Doctordarkspawn

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Slavery
One can not speak of House Telvanni without mentioning slavery. Honestly, I was quite disappointed by ESO: Morrowind's quests relating to slavery. The dialogue assumes the character to have real-world Western values where slavery is atrocious. While I am not asking for the player character to be forced to agree with slavery, I want there to be options. Not every character wants to be the hero. Some simply wish to follow a tradition they see as right. While we (assuming you live in a first-world country) may see this practice as barbaric and cruel, the people of Morrowind see it as tradition. House Telvanni believes that power confers right, and slaves are powerless, meaning they must be controlled lest their pure Dunmeri culture be tainted. I understand that some are too close-minded to understad such a mindset, but it truly is an interesting one to explore.

If you want there to be the option for us to support Slavery, then I also want the option to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Slave Master I come across.

Only fair.

If you want there to be the option for us to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Master you come across, then I also want the option to slaughter and enslave every filthy scaleback scum I come across.

You see the dilemma? I'm asking for dialogue options that allow for more roleplaying freedom. You're asking for an entirely new gameplay system which is biased to one extreme side. How could more dialogue choices hurt you? Simply don't choose them; RP is essential to the MMORPG genre.

Don't act like you've never played a 'bad' character before. You've probably done either the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood quests, and if you haven't, you've probably ruined some poor NPC's livelihood forcing him into eternal debt by pickpocketing his only valuables. Or maybe you killed some NPC of an adjacent alliance in PvE who had a family that is now cast into deep depression all because of your acts. Do you think all of those soldiers were volunteers? Many were probably drafted against their will. They didn't want to fight. They just wanted to live, and you took that from them. You took that from their families.

Do you see this moral dilemma where anything anyone does can be morally "evil?" This is why I despise moral arguments. Morality is different to everyone, especially to our fictional characters who grew up with different values. Why should my Telvanni have contemporary western values?

Don't tell me that murder and thievery are perfectly A OK when slavery is some magical line you won't cross. There is this backwards moral compass I come across all too often on these forums where acts such as genocide and torture are acceptable to discuss while slavery is some sacred topic were any sort of discussion on the matter will cause you to be struck down by furious lightning on the spot.

This is by no means the point of this thread, however, so do not continue to derail the topic. Just because you are too close-minded to tolerate fictional morality doesn't mean you should let everyone know.

To get back on topic: What unique aspects do you think ZOS could add to Port Telvannis? What sort of personalities, dialects, landscape, etc. would you expect to see? I, for one, think it would be neat if we were able to progress through a Telvanni 'guild' skill-line.

I love how you need to type of up an essay justifying this. It really shows your character.

The mans statement, and opinion, does not change.

Also, Fun fact: Slavery is abhorrant to most regions in Tamriel, hence why it is actively -illegal- in all places at this time except two: Vvardenfell, and Hews Bane, which is so corrupt the law is outright ignored. Because oddly enough, most people do not want to be enslaved, and considering the major religion is a peacefull and empathetic one, you do not have a leg to stand on to claim this is commonplace for -most people-.

Allow me to correct a bit of misinformation: Slavery is legal in all of Morrowind; the enslavement of Pact races is illegal in all but Eastern Vvardenfell (House Redoran joined the Pact and they control western Vvardenfell), the Telvanni Coast (the piece of land that juts out to the east of Morrowind), and Port Telvannis. If "Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!" is to be taken seriously, however, then slavery is still legal in eastern Vvardenfell, the Telvanni Coast, and Port Telvannis. (Edit: I forgot to mention that House Dres is specifically excluded from the list of Great Houses who accepted this supposed slavery ban according to the sketchy pamphlet, meaning that the enslavement of non-Pact races is still commonplace in large portions of the base game, which is evident by the Khajiit slaves that can be found in Stonefalls and, iirc, Deshaan)

"Abusive fantasies?" I hate slavery. It is a terrible and barbaric institution. My Telvanni Master loves it, however. I can, unlike some, draw the line between fiction and reality.

There's some despute over that, actually.

It's banned on a house by house basis, and while Kragenmoor exists apparently it's soft retconned in Morrowind. Apparently, the Pact outright banned it, however, Vvardenfell refused to join the pact. This does not excluse the -rest of the world- however, so my point still holds.

((I didn't do enough to research sources for this apparent change, and quite frankly I dont feel like going back enough to check. But I heard -alot- of chatter about it, and specifically how many Dunmer RPers hated it and refused to use it, fleeing to headcannon. So there you go.))

As for 'unable to seperate fiction and reality', let me make this point perfectly clear.

If you were not invested in the continual appearence, depiction, and from your own post, glorification of Slavery, you would not be arguing it. If you are this ready to type up defense after defense, some part of you wants to see it. And I suggest you take it as a warning sign, and seek psychiatric help.

Furthermore, attempting to brute force me into playing through what you want to play despite the fact it clashes with my characters values and my own, saying I'm a sensative snowflake who cant leave they're own prejudice at the door, is nonsense. I can. I just dont want to.

Allow me to further correct a bit of misinformation. I will use dorect quotes from the Pact Pamphlet this time in order to make things absolutely clear (as it seems you haven't read it).

Yes, the pamplet says that slaves are now "FREE* and INDEPENDENT*." Note the asterisks; it later goes on to clarify: "(*The following Great Houses of the Dark Elves have agreed to and will honor this stipulation: Indoril, Hlaalu, and Redoran. Citizenship and freedom are not gauranteed in other Dark Elf territories.)" This means, as I said, that slavery is still legal in House Telvanni and House Dres, the latter having a large presence in mainland Morrowind (notably in the base game).

This effectively renders the pamphlet as meaningless as the Houses who agreed to it aren't the Houses depicted as owning slaves in the base game (unless I missed a minor detail; feel free to correct me with evidence if I am wrong).

Furthermore, I never wanted to "brute force" anyone into playing a pro-slavery character. If you had read my posts rather than assuming me to be some slave-loving fanatic IRL, I simply asked for more dialogue choices. This means I want player characters to be able to say both, "Slavery is disgusting," and "Slavery is tradition," rather than being "brute" forced into saying the former. I never asked for you to be forced into helping slaves (which is why I offered it as an optional daily which I immediately contrasted with another optional daily that would allow you to free slaves!). I simply want my 'bad' character to be able to choose more suitable options via quest dialogue.

I will not continue to argue the 'difference between fiction and fantasy' argument as @ToRelax has done so brilliantly.

Seems to be about correct. Honestly, I wish they had never touched the slavery lore, it just muddied the waters.

As for the stuff as far as slavery, okay. You want choice. I want choice too. Hopefully the writing team will be able to do better in the future.

As for the 'fantasty vs fiction' arguement, and the rest of it, said my piece.

I can definitely agree with your first two points here. They really confused so much with a single pamphlet that seems unofficial and propaganda-like.

As for choice: I play a wide range of characters, all with differing views and values. Yes, I main a conservative Telvanni, but I also have a 'liberal' (as far as a Dunmer can be) Hlaalu who finds slavery distasteful. I then have a dutiful Redoran who will follow anti-slavery laws simply because it is the will of the Pact, and therefore, the Tribunal. These are just my more thought out Dunmer characters, however.

I have a Nord who, while reluctant to let Argonians and Dunmer flood Skyrim because of the alliance, hates slavery and sees it as primitive. Several other characters hold similar views, while others are indifferent.

The thing is that my 'good' characters already have relatively appropriate dialogue, meaning that I need to stress the need for appropriate dialogue to suit my 'bad' characters.

Finally, if you want to kill slavers, there's a hostile Telvanni slaver camp in Shadowfen you can have at 25/8.

Like most storylines these days I find the 'good' storylines these days in games are neither all that good, or they're often not badass enough. The old John Wayne, Bruce Willis type style seems to be dying out. Heroes are either Riddick or complete superhero wusses. You never get a good guy who will crack skulls to stop evil. That's one thing I enjoyed about the Dawnguard in Skyrim. They were unrepentant in their disdain for Vampirism. They were badass. The mealy mouthed Fighters Guild just seems like a bunch of cheesy Mercs... which is exactly what they are. The Companions & the Dawnguard on the other hand are something I'd actually want to join.

If the writing for the Companions was better.

The old Fighters Guild questline from Oblivion was awsome.

And yes, the whole 'crack skulls to stop evil' bit is dying out. Is it any wonder, when people label how Shadow of War treats orcs which is faithfull to the lore of the series, as 'racist'? People just cant do it anymore without some idiot growing offended.

Something that ESO retains, my objections to it aside, is a unrepenant willingness to portray grey. And I love it for it.

dodgehopper_ESO

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Slavery
One can not speak of House Telvanni without mentioning slavery. Honestly, I was quite disappointed by ESO: Morrowind's quests relating to slavery. The dialogue assumes the character to have real-world Western values where slavery is atrocious. While I am not asking for the player character to be forced to agree with slavery, I want there to be options. Not every character wants to be the hero. Some simply wish to follow a tradition they see as right. While we (assuming you live in a first-world country) may see this practice as barbaric and cruel, the people of Morrowind see it as tradition. House Telvanni believes that power confers right, and slaves are powerless, meaning they must be controlled lest their pure Dunmeri culture be tainted. I understand that some are too close-minded to understad such a mindset, but it truly is an interesting one to explore.

If you want there to be the option for us to support Slavery, then I also want the option to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Slave Master I come across.

Only fair.

If you want there to be the option for us to free Slaves and kill every Dunmer Master you come across, then I also want the option to slaughter and enslave every filthy scaleback scum I come across.

You see the dilemma? I'm asking for dialogue options that allow for more roleplaying freedom. You're asking for an entirely new gameplay system which is biased to one extreme side. How could more dialogue choices hurt you? Simply don't choose them; RP is essential to the MMORPG genre.

Don't act like you've never played a 'bad' character before. You've probably done either the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood quests, and if you haven't, you've probably ruined some poor NPC's livelihood forcing him into eternal debt by pickpocketing his only valuables. Or maybe you killed some NPC of an adjacent alliance in PvE who had a family that is now cast into deep depression all because of your acts. Do you think all of those soldiers were volunteers? Many were probably drafted against their will. They didn't want to fight. They just wanted to live, and you took that from them. You took that from their families.

Do you see this moral dilemma where anything anyone does can be morally "evil?" This is why I despise moral arguments. Morality is different to everyone, especially to our fictional characters who grew up with different values. Why should my Telvanni have contemporary western values?

Don't tell me that murder and thievery are perfectly A OK when slavery is some magical line you won't cross. There is this backwards moral compass I come across all too often on these forums where acts such as genocide and torture are acceptable to discuss while slavery is some sacred topic were any sort of discussion on the matter will cause you to be struck down by furious lightning on the spot.

This is by no means the point of this thread, however, so do not continue to derail the topic. Just because you are too close-minded to tolerate fictional morality doesn't mean you should let everyone know.

To get back on topic: What unique aspects do you think ZOS could add to Port Telvannis? What sort of personalities, dialects, landscape, etc. would you expect to see? I, for one, think it would be neat if we were able to progress through a Telvanni 'guild' skill-line.

I love how you need to type of up an essay justifying this. It really shows your character.

The mans statement, and opinion, does not change.

Also, Fun fact: Slavery is abhorrant to most regions in Tamriel, hence why it is actively -illegal- in all places at this time except two: Vvardenfell, and Hews Bane, which is so corrupt the law is outright ignored. Because oddly enough, most people do not want to be enslaved, and considering the major religion is a peacefull and empathetic one, you do not have a leg to stand on to claim this is commonplace for -most people-.

Allow me to correct a bit of misinformation: Slavery is legal in all of Morrowind; the enslavement of Pact races is illegal in all but Eastern Vvardenfell (House Redoran joined the Pact and they control western Vvardenfell), the Telvanni Coast (the piece of land that juts out to the east of Morrowind), and Port Telvannis. If "Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations!" is to be taken seriously, however, then slavery is still legal in eastern Vvardenfell, the Telvanni Coast, and Port Telvannis. (Edit: I forgot to mention that House Dres is specifically excluded from the list of Great Houses who accepted this supposed slavery ban according to the sketchy pamphlet, meaning that the enslavement of non-Pact races is still commonplace in large portions of the base game, which is evident by the Khajiit slaves that can be found in Stonefalls and, iirc, Deshaan)

"Abusive fantasies?" I hate slavery. It is a terrible and barbaric institution. My Telvanni Master loves it, however. I can, unlike some, draw the line between fiction and reality.

There's some despute over that, actually.

It's banned on a house by house basis, and while Kragenmoor exists apparently it's soft retconned in Morrowind. Apparently, the Pact outright banned it, however, Vvardenfell refused to join the pact. This does not excluse the -rest of the world- however, so my point still holds.

((I didn't do enough to research sources for this apparent change, and quite frankly I dont feel like going back enough to check. But I heard -alot- of chatter about it, and specifically how many Dunmer RPers hated it and refused to use it, fleeing to headcannon. So there you go.))

As for 'unable to seperate fiction and reality', let me make this point perfectly clear.

If you were not invested in the continual appearence, depiction, and from your own post, glorification of Slavery, you would not be arguing it. If you are this ready to type up defense after defense, some part of you wants to see it. And I suggest you take it as a warning sign, and seek psychiatric help.

Furthermore, attempting to brute force me into playing through what you want to play despite the fact it clashes with my characters values and my own, saying I'm a sensative snowflake who cant leave they're own prejudice at the door, is nonsense. I can. I just dont want to.

Allow me to further correct a bit of misinformation. I will use dorect quotes from the Pact Pamphlet this time in order to make things absolutely clear (as it seems you haven't read it).

Yes, the pamplet says that slaves are now "FREE* and INDEPENDENT*." Note the asterisks; it later goes on to clarify: "(*The following Great Houses of the Dark Elves have agreed to and will honor this stipulation: Indoril, Hlaalu, and Redoran. Citizenship and freedom are not gauranteed in other Dark Elf territories.)" This means, as I said, that slavery is still legal in House Telvanni and House Dres, the latter having a large presence in mainland Morrowind (notably in the base game).

This effectively renders the pamphlet as meaningless as the Houses who agreed to it aren't the Houses depicted as owning slaves in the base game (unless I missed a minor detail; feel free to correct me with evidence if I am wrong).

Furthermore, I never wanted to "brute force" anyone into playing a pro-slavery character. If you had read my posts rather than assuming me to be some slave-loving fanatic IRL, I simply asked for more dialogue choices. This means I want player characters to be able to say both, "Slavery is disgusting," and "Slavery is tradition," rather than being "brute" forced into saying the former. I never asked for you to be forced into helping slaves (which is why I offered it as an optional daily which I immediately contrasted with another optional daily that would allow you to free slaves!). I simply want my 'bad' character to be able to choose more suitable options via quest dialogue.

I will not continue to argue the 'difference between fiction and fantasy' argument as @ToRelax has done so brilliantly.

Seems to be about correct. Honestly, I wish they had never touched the slavery lore, it just muddied the waters.

As for the stuff as far as slavery, okay. You want choice. I want choice too. Hopefully the writing team will be able to do better in the future.

As for the 'fantasty vs fiction' arguement, and the rest of it, said my piece.

I can definitely agree with your first two points here. They really confused so much with a single pamphlet that seems unofficial and propaganda-like.

As for choice: I play a wide range of characters, all with differing views and values. Yes, I main a conservative Telvanni, but I also have a 'liberal' (as far as a Dunmer can be) Hlaalu who finds slavery distasteful. I then have a dutiful Redoran who will follow anti-slavery laws simply because it is the will of the Pact, and therefore, the Tribunal. These are just my more thought out Dunmer characters, however.

I have a Nord who, while reluctant to let Argonians and Dunmer flood Skyrim because of the alliance, hates slavery and sees it as primitive. Several other characters hold similar views, while others are indifferent.

The thing is that my 'good' characters already have relatively appropriate dialogue, meaning that I need to stress the need for appropriate dialogue to suit my 'bad' characters.

Finally, if you want to kill slavers, there's a hostile Telvanni slaver camp in Shadowfen you can have at 25/8.

Like most storylines these days I find the 'good' storylines these days in games are neither all that good, or they're often not badass enough. The old John Wayne, Bruce Willis type style seems to be dying out. Heroes are either Riddick or complete superhero wusses. You never get a good guy who will crack skulls to stop evil. That's one thing I enjoyed about the Dawnguard in Skyrim. They were unrepentant in their disdain for Vampirism. They were badass. The mealy mouthed Fighters Guild just seems like a bunch of cheesy Mercs... which is exactly what they are. The Companions & the Dawnguard on the other hand are something I'd actually want to join.

If the writing for the Companions was better.

The old Fighters Guild questline from Oblivion was awsome.

And yes, the whole 'crack skulls to stop evil' bit is dying out. Is it any wonder, when people label how Shadow of War treats orcs which is faithfull to the lore of the series, as 'racist'? People just cant do it anymore without some idiot growing offended.

Something that ESO retains, my objections to it aside, is a unrepenant willingness to portray grey. And I love it for it.

I love the way the Orcs of Middle Earth are just horrid monsters. I also find the Orcimer of Tamriel interesting for different reasons. They really are not even remotely the same creature apart from perhaps some esthetic commonalities. On the matter of people talking about heroic options, I am just saying you don't really see a whole lot of it. I like the different stripes of options available but I do find it problematic when people think 'all the good options are there' when clearly its just gray, darker and darkest. I appreciated Dawnguard in Skyrim because they have a code. They can be brutish at times but that's part of the charm of their organization. In many ways that's why the Dark Brotherhood is interesting. In both instances they're believers. There's just nothing in ESO right now that gives me the old good feelings of playing the Companions, the Dawnguard, hell the Robin Hood style of the Thieves Guild in Morrowind. I don't see it as entirely the developers' fault. They first built game systems around Legerdemain, then Thieves Guild, then Dark Brotherhood, and then other shadow societies to play off all of those nifty systems they just built. I'm just suggesting it'd be nice to see them take a different tack eventually, because heroism has long since left the building. Its no wonder Molag Bal tells you that he won even though he lost.

At any regard my apologies for going this far down the wrong track. We were talking about Port Telvanni. I am hopeful about many of the things @MythicEmperor said and I also think it should wait a bit so we can see some other cultures in the series again.

ArchMikem

I wonder this. If the Port Telvannis city were added in all its Telvanni glory, would my Khajiit character be immediately targeted and referred to as a Slave? I doubt theyd allow a cat to wander around their heartland freely.

MythicEmperor

ArchMikem wrote: »

I wonder this. If the Port Telvannis city were added in all its Telvanni glory, would my Khajiit character be immediately targeted and referred to as a Slave? I doubt theyd allow a cat to wander around their heartland freely.

To quote "The Affairs of Wizards"

"For example, since the Telvanni vigorously defend the right to own slaves, and since they keep many Argonian and Khajiit as slaves, many Argonians and Khajiit assume they would not be accepted for service with House Telvanni.

Not true. Telvanni accept all races as candidates for membership."

Your Khajiit will be fine. House Telvanni is a meritocracy beyond any racial prejudice.

starkerealm

MythicEmperor wrote: »

My Telvanni Master loves it, however. I can, unlike some, draw the line between fiction and reality.

Citation Needed. :P

WhiteCoatSyndrome

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Your Khajiit will be fine. House Telvanni is a meritocracy beyond any racial prejudice.

Sun-In-Shadow thought the same thing. About that...

Doctordarkspawn

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I wonder this. If the Port Telvannis city were added in all its Telvanni glory, would my Khajiit character be immediately targeted and referred to as a Slave? I doubt theyd allow a cat to wander around their heartland freely.

To quote "The Affairs of Wizards"

"For example, since the Telvanni vigorously defend the right to own slaves, and since they keep many Argonian and Khajiit as slaves, many Argonians and Khajiit assume they would not be accepted for service with House Telvanni.

Not true. Telvanni accept all races as candidates for membership."

Your Khajiit will be fine. House Telvanni is a meritocracy beyond any racial prejudice.

Yet as we see -in- the questline members of house Telvanni in power definately are racially prejudiced.

The meritoracy does not exactly work when the people in power make the rules.

MythicEmperor

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I wonder this. If the Port Telvannis city were added in all its Telvanni glory, would my Khajiit character be immediately targeted and referred to as a Slave? I doubt theyd allow a cat to wander around their heartland freely.

To quote "The Affairs of Wizards"

"For example, since the Telvanni vigorously defend the right to own slaves, and since they keep many Argonian and Khajiit as slaves, many Argonians and Khajiit assume they would not be accepted for service with House Telvanni.

Not true. Telvanni accept all races as candidates for membership."

Your Khajiit will be fine. House Telvanni is a meritocracy beyond any racial prejudice.

Yet as we see -in- the questline members of house Telvanni in power definately are racially prejudiced.

The meritoracy does not exactly work when the people in power make the rules.

My point is that a non-Dunmer character wouldn't be enslaved simply for walking around.

Sun-In-Shadow, through a bit of effort, still unfortunately managed to progress in rank.

dodgehopper_ESO

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I wonder this. If the Port Telvannis city were added in all its Telvanni glory, would my Khajiit character be immediately targeted and referred to as a Slave? I doubt theyd allow a cat to wander around their heartland freely.

To quote "The Affairs of Wizards"

"For example, since the Telvanni vigorously defend the right to own slaves, and since they keep many Argonian and Khajiit as slaves, many Argonians and Khajiit assume they would not be accepted for service with House Telvanni.

Not true. Telvanni accept all races as candidates for membership."

Your Khajiit will be fine. House Telvanni is a meritocracy beyond any racial prejudice.

Yet as we see -in- the questline members of house Telvanni in power definately are racially prejudiced.

The meritoracy does not exactly work when the people in power make the rules.

My point is that a non-Dunmer character wouldn't be enslaved simply for walking around.

Sun-In-Shadow, through a bit of effort, still unfortunately managed to progress in rank.

I suspect being a Dunmer is preferable but they would be accepting of an exceptional Altmer or Bosmer. Bretons would likely be next despite their mongrel status because at least they would be 'part elf'. Anything beyond that would run into a lot of social problems, and even the Breton would still run into a lot of issues. Perhaps some pointy ayleid ears from his great granpappy would improve his chances.

MythicEmperor

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I wonder this. If the Port Telvannis city were added in all its Telvanni glory, would my Khajiit character be immediately targeted and referred to as a Slave? I doubt theyd allow a cat to wander around their heartland freely.

To quote "The Affairs of Wizards"

"For example, since the Telvanni vigorously defend the right to own slaves, and since they keep many Argonian and Khajiit as slaves, many Argonians and Khajiit assume they would not be accepted for service with House Telvanni.

Not true. Telvanni accept all races as candidates for membership."

Your Khajiit will be fine. House Telvanni is a meritocracy beyond any racial prejudice.

Yet as we see -in- the questline members of house Telvanni in power definately are racially prejudiced.

The meritoracy does not exactly work when the people in power make the rules.

My point is that a non-Dunmer character wouldn't be enslaved simply for walking around.

Sun-In-Shadow, through a bit of effort, still unfortunately managed to progress in rank.

I suspect being a Dunmer is preferable but they would be accepting of an exceptional Altmer or Bosmer. Bretons would likely be next despite their mongrel status because at least they would be 'part elf'. Anything beyond that would run into a lot of social problems, and even the Breton would still run into a lot of issues. Perhaps some pointy ayleid ears from his great granpappy would improve his chances.

It isn't that they'd run into issues, but that they'd have to work harder to prove themselves in order to progress through the ranks. Sun-in-Shadow only had issues because she started as a slave. Obviously, gaining freedom is no small task, and her previous position caused others to think less of her. If she were free to begin with, the situation would be a different one.

ToRelax

.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I wonder this. If the Port Telvannis city were added in all its Telvanni glory, would my Khajiit character be immediately targeted and referred to as a Slave? I doubt theyd allow a cat to wander around their heartland freely.

To quote "The Affairs of Wizards"

"For example, since the Telvanni vigorously defend the right to own slaves, and since they keep many Argonian and Khajiit as slaves, many Argonians and Khajiit assume they would not be accepted for service with House Telvanni.

Not true. Telvanni accept all races as candidates for membership."

Your Khajiit will be fine. House Telvanni is a meritocracy beyond any racial prejudice.

Yet as we see -in- the questline members of house Telvanni in power definately are racially prejudiced.

The meritoracy does not exactly work when the people in power make the rules.

My point is that a non-Dunmer character wouldn't be enslaved simply for walking around.

Sun-In-Shadow, through a bit of effort, still unfortunately managed to progress in rank.

I suspect being a Dunmer is preferable but they would be accepting of an exceptional Altmer or Bosmer. Bretons would likely be next despite their mongrel status because at least they would be 'part elf'. Anything beyond that would run into a lot of social problems, and even the Breton would still run into a lot of issues. Perhaps some pointy ayleid ears from his great granpappy would improve his chances.

It isn't that they'd run into issues, but that they'd have to work harder to prove themselves in order to progress through the ranks. Sun-in-Shadow only had issues because she started as a slave. Obviously, gaining freedom is no small task, and her previous position caused others to think less of her. If she were free to begin with, the situation would be a different one.

I think some Telvanni are just jealous of their peers and like to bully anyone in a weaker position than them, for which slaves and lesser races are a prime target obviously. Despite viewing Argonians as little more than animals, an actually powerful mer likely wouldn't invest much time into purposefully trying to make their life even more difficult.