Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Suggesting AOE Taunt!
-
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
I can only assume you have not experienced vHoF, vMoL, vAS or vAA based on your comment. Both require blocking and movement.
To understand what defines a good damage dealer 0ne must understand how to manage movement and blocking while still do your damage. So, yes, I do dodge roll, block and move when needed. A dead damage dealer is the worst kind.
I assume you misunderstood what I'm saying.
There is no argument present in what you've said, it's obvious that a DPS needs to stay alive through movement and blocking. The reactions to incoming damage causes more than a miniscule reduction of DPS. If a DPS misses or delays one dps skill every 10 seconds, that's a 10% reduction in damage.
With most fights is miniscule. Good dps are not losing 10% in that fight unless they are managing specific tasks like running in the back room. The blocking is not often enough to cause a 10% DPS loss in itself.
There are fights in the most recent two trials that have much more movement and as such DPS does fall, but that is beside the point you are making.
Besides, it seems you have derailed this conversation with this. It is about AoE taunts, not dps tactics for avoiding damage or the cost of it on their damage output.
I've only been talking about AOE taunts on trash mobs and it's effects on reducing aggro on DPS....*scrolls up* ...in 4 player content.
Recent posts seemed otherwise without re-reading the thread.
At that, this is a discussion in futility. Zos will not add an AoE taunt and it has been proven to not be needed. We do really great without it. While some may struggle as the learn the game, that does not make a case for an AoE taunt. Quite the contrary.
Zos intended for dps and healers to get agro. They actually designed the game as such. Zos gave us the skills to handle this agro and developing those skills is essential if a player intends to enter vet trials, especially the newer ones.
So how much dps is reduced as a result of the tank not having an "I win" button to press is not a justification of an AoE taunt.Edited by idk on November 23, 2017 11:08PM0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
I can only assume you have not experienced vHoF, vMoL, vAS or vAA based on your comment. Both require blocking and movement.
To understand what defines a good damage dealer 0ne must understand how to manage movement and blocking while still do your damage. So, yes, I do dodge roll, block and move when needed. A dead damage dealer is the worst kind.
I assume you misunderstood what I'm saying.
There is no argument present in what you've said, it's obvious that a DPS needs to stay alive through movement and blocking. The reactions to incoming damage causes more than a miniscule reduction of DPS. If a DPS misses or delays one dps skill every 10 seconds, that's a 10% reduction in damage.
With most fights is miniscule. Good dps are not losing 10% in that fight unless they are managing specific tasks like running in the back room. The blocking is not often enough to cause a 10% DPS loss in itself.
There are fights in the most recent two trials that have much more movement and as such DPS does fall, but that is beside the point you are making.
Besides, it seems you have derailed this conversation with this. It is about AoE taunts, not dps tactics for avoiding damage or the cost of it on their damage output.
I've only been talking about AOE taunts on trash mobs and it's effects on reducing aggro on DPS....*scrolls up* ...in 4 player content.
Recent posts seemed otherwise without re-reading the thread.
At that, this is a discussion in futility. Zos will not add an AoE taunt and it has been proven to not be needed. We do really great without it. While some may struggle as the learn the game, that does not make a case for an AoE taunt. Quite the contrary.
Zos intended for dps and healers to get agro. They actually designed the game as such. Zos gave us the skills to handle this agro and developing those skills is essential if a player intends to enter vet trials, especially the newer ones.
So how much dps is reduced as a result of the tank not having an "I win" button to press is not a justification of an AoE taunt.
Alright, back to square one then. You've said pretty much the same things already, I've already said my responses to those things, so I'll just respond to the new thing. Now you think an AOE taunt is an I win button in PVE... Speaking from experience as a DPS that holds a majority of the trash mob aggro I can assure you it's not.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »Aggro mechanics are still kind of busted IMO. One of my tank builds has a whopping 5k weapon damage and 34k stam and a Endless hail -> Caltrops -> DBOS combo goes down and I can't maintain aggro without spamming puncture?
Please. Give me a freaking break. Fix aggro mechanics.
That's correct. If you want to maintain a "soft-taunt" through high DPS, you need to actually have the high DPS.
Your job as tank is not to maintain aggro on everything. ZOS didn't design the game that way, Your job is to maintain aggro on priority targets and crowd control the rest. Puncture + Caltrops ought to be sufficient if you are also making smart use of choke points and your placement in the fight.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
I can only assume you have not experienced vHoF, vMoL, vAS or vAA based on your comment. Both require blocking and movement.
To understand what defines a good damage dealer 0ne must understand how to manage movement and blocking while still do your damage. So, yes, I do dodge roll, block and move when needed. A dead damage dealer is the worst kind.
I assume you misunderstood what I'm saying.
There is no argument present in what you've said, it's obvious that a DPS needs to stay alive through movement and blocking. The reactions to incoming damage causes more than a miniscule reduction of DPS. If a DPS misses or delays one dps skill every 10 seconds, that's a 10% reduction in damage.
With most fights is miniscule. Good dps are not losing 10% in that fight unless they are managing specific tasks like running in the back room. The blocking is not often enough to cause a 10% DPS loss in itself.
There are fights in the most recent two trials that have much more movement and as such DPS does fall, but that is beside the point you are making.
Besides, it seems you have derailed this conversation with this. It is about AoE taunts, not dps tactics for avoiding damage or the cost of it on their damage output.
I've only been talking about AOE taunts on trash mobs and it's effects on reducing aggro on DPS....*scrolls up* ...in 4 player content.
Recent posts seemed otherwise without re-reading the thread.
At that, this is a discussion in futility. Zos will not add an AoE taunt and it has been proven to not be needed. We do really great without it. While some may struggle as the learn the game, that does not make a case for an AoE taunt. Quite the contrary.
Zos intended for dps and healers to get agro. They actually designed the game as such. Zos gave us the skills to handle this agro and developing those skills is essential if a player intends to enter vet trials, especially the newer ones.
So how much dps is reduced as a result of the tank not having an "I win" button to press is not a justification of an AoE taunt.
Alright, back to square one then. You've said pretty much the same things already, I've already said my responses to those things, so I'll just respond to the new thing. Now you think an AOE taunt is an I win button in PVE... Speaking from experience as a DPS that holds a majority of the trash mob aggro I can assure you it's not.
You have not stated one solid reason an AoE taunt is actually needed while myself and others have explained that all the content is cleared successfully by many from more casual to the hard core without an AoE taunt.
Yes, I understand you have lag, but that is not a reason for Zos to change the game. Yes, I understand you want a firm target lock like older games have, but that is not the way ESO was designed and it plays just well as it is for a majority of players.
This is also the direction some new games in development are going. Developers of new MMOs are taking the game are making combat more fluid by making it seem less like being stuck on rails. ESO is part of that. Even older games have made changes to make combat less ridged.
Anyhow, I am done with this thread. Seriously, GL overcoming the issues you have found. Had hoped you would get the hint I dropped a couple times of asking how we manage things like the axes without an AoE taunt but I think it is just time for me to move on.
Edited by idk on November 24, 2017 2:15AM0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
I can only assume you have not experienced vHoF, vMoL, vAS or vAA based on your comment. Both require blocking and movement.
To understand what defines a good damage dealer 0ne must understand how to manage movement and blocking while still do your damage. So, yes, I do dodge roll, block and move when needed. A dead damage dealer is the worst kind.
I assume you misunderstood what I'm saying.
There is no argument present in what you've said, it's obvious that a DPS needs to stay alive through movement and blocking. The reactions to incoming damage causes more than a miniscule reduction of DPS. If a DPS misses or delays one dps skill every 10 seconds, that's a 10% reduction in damage.
With most fights is miniscule. Good dps are not losing 10% in that fight unless they are managing specific tasks like running in the back room. The blocking is not often enough to cause a 10% DPS loss in itself.
There are fights in the most recent two trials that have much more movement and as such DPS does fall, but that is beside the point you are making.
Besides, it seems you have derailed this conversation with this. It is about AoE taunts, not dps tactics for avoiding damage or the cost of it on their damage output.
I've only been talking about AOE taunts on trash mobs and it's effects on reducing aggro on DPS....*scrolls up* ...in 4 player content.
Recent posts seemed otherwise without re-reading the thread.
At that, this is a discussion in futility. Zos will not add an AoE taunt and it has been proven to not be needed. We do really great without it. While some may struggle as the learn the game, that does not make a case for an AoE taunt. Quite the contrary.
Zos intended for dps and healers to get agro. They actually designed the game as such. Zos gave us the skills to handle this agro and developing those skills is essential if a player intends to enter vet trials, especially the newer ones.
So how much dps is reduced as a result of the tank not having an "I win" button to press is not a justification of an AoE taunt.
Alright, back to square one then. You've said pretty much the same things already, I've already said my responses to those things, so I'll just respond to the new thing. Now you think an AOE taunt is an I win button in PVE... Speaking from experience as a DPS that holds a majority of the trash mob aggro I can assure you it's not.You have not stated one solid reason an AoE taunt is actually needed while myself and others have explained that all the content is cleared successfully by many from more casual to the hard core without an AoE taunt.
Seriously, GL overcoming the issues you have found. Had hoped you would get the hint I dropped a couple times of asking how we manage things like the axes without an AoE taunt but I think it is just time for me to move on.
It isn't a problem I'm having, it's a problem with the game. Tank roles aren't in a healthy place in 4 man content. Power creep has pushed every other role to become extremely durable these days and tanks are less and less appealing. You'll see more "Fake Tank in Undaunted" threads popping up indefinitely if nothing changes. Devs need to either scale back everyone's defenses, make the enemies hit harder, or change something with tanking.
How could they improve things for tanks in 4 player content so that the role becomes more desirable? The OP brought up an old AOE taunt topic that was an old beaten dead horse from long ago. As expected, people are jumping all over it saying things like "You don't want to aggro everything, you'll die." Or "it wasn't the original design intent from the beginning." Those are both weak arguments, it's easy to survive all the mobs now in 4 player content and this game bears less semblance to what was originally designed.
Things have changed and more changes are still needed. An AOE taunt would give tanks extra utility. So you don't like an AOE taunt, what do you suggest?Edited by Bladerunner1 on November 24, 2017 4:05AM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personally, I love tanking. Sure, tanks aren't necessary for most content and neither are healers, assuming your group is good enough at their role and self-heals/sustain.
But a good tank can make a world of difference, bringing order to the chaos and making the jobs of the DPS and the healer so much easier. That's why you see fake tank threads - not because tanks are unnecessary, but because its darned obvious when you wanted a tank and got someone who refuses to tank.
For all the complaints, I still find my role as tank interesting and varied. I'm always trying to improve my trash mob pulls and figure out how I can make a dungeon run go just that little bit more smoothly. I like being a support player, I like the sense of control that tanking gives me, and I like knowing that I'm setting the rest of my group up for a successful dungeon complete.
As I've said before, my problem is that an aoe taunt would be far from an extra utility. It would become the only utility a tank would have. Aoe Taunt + Permablock is all that tanks would have to do. There'd be no reason to do anything else.1 -
Belegnole✭✭✭✭✭lol, all this bickering has only made one thing abundantly clear. Tanks aren't needed! Not only that but many tanks themselves don't want something that would make them more useful....rather odd that.
Maybe it's because he game has been toned down, but it's a sad state when Tanks aren't needed.1 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭lol, all this bickering has only made one thing abundantly clear. Tanks aren't needed! Not only that but many tanks themselves don't want something that would make them more useful....rather odd that.
Maybe it's because he game has been toned down, but it's a sad state when Tanks aren't needed.
That's the repeated point: it won't make tanks more useful, it'll make it even more boring to tank.
And tanks do have their place. A lot of talk of dungeons not needing tanks or healers, and whilst true, that isn't the majority. We cannot have both 'PUGs cannot do dungeons' AND 'dungeons don't need tanks and healers.'
You add in AOE taunt and there will be a new meta: the tank, AKA one with AOE taunt will spec to taunt, block, and provide whatever support required, while the rest will be straight DPS.
2 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭lol, all this bickering has only made one thing abundantly clear. Tanks aren't needed! Not only that but many tanks themselves don't want something that would make them more useful....rather odd that.
Maybe it's because he game has been toned down, but it's a sad state when Tanks aren't needed.
A large majority of groups that try veteran dungeons cannot complete them without a Tank. People on the forums talk and act like almost no one runs with a tank, this is not true. Go do a Group Finder run and tell me if it went well when tank was bad or didn't actually tank but was a DPS queued as a Tank. As well a proper tank does actually bring a lot to the group if you do it right. Chains, Talons, Torugs/Alkosh, Major Fracture/Breach and a lot more. It makes for a really smooth run when you have a good Tank.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
I can only assume you have not experienced vHoF, vMoL, vAS or vAA based on your comment. Both require blocking and movement.
To understand what defines a good damage dealer 0ne must understand how to manage movement and blocking while still do your damage. So, yes, I do dodge roll, block and move when needed. A dead damage dealer is the worst kind.
I assume you misunderstood what I'm saying.
There is no argument present in what you've said, it's obvious that a DPS needs to stay alive through movement and blocking. The reactions to incoming damage causes more than a miniscule reduction of DPS. If a DPS misses or delays one dps skill every 10 seconds, that's a 10% reduction in damage.
With most fights is miniscule. Good dps are not losing 10% in that fight unless they are managing specific tasks like running in the back room. The blocking is not often enough to cause a 10% DPS loss in itself.
There are fights in the most recent two trials that have much more movement and as such DPS does fall, but that is beside the point you are making.
Besides, it seems you have derailed this conversation with this. It is about AoE taunts, not dps tactics for avoiding damage or the cost of it on their damage output.
I've only been talking about AOE taunts on trash mobs and it's effects on reducing aggro on DPS....*scrolls up* ...in 4 player content.
Recent posts seemed otherwise without re-reading the thread.
At that, this is a discussion in futility. Zos will not add an AoE taunt and it has been proven to not be needed. We do really great without it. While some may struggle as the learn the game, that does not make a case for an AoE taunt. Quite the contrary.
Zos intended for dps and healers to get agro. They actually designed the game as such. Zos gave us the skills to handle this agro and developing those skills is essential if a player intends to enter vet trials, especially the newer ones.
So how much dps is reduced as a result of the tank not having an "I win" button to press is not a justification of an AoE taunt.
Alright, back to square one then. You've said pretty much the same things already, I've already said my responses to those things, so I'll just respond to the new thing. Now you think an AOE taunt is an I win button in PVE... Speaking from experience as a DPS that holds a majority of the trash mob aggro I can assure you it's not.You have not stated one solid reason an AoE taunt is actually needed while myself and others have explained that all the content is cleared successfully by many from more casual to the hard core without an AoE taunt.
Seriously, GL overcoming the issues you have found. Had hoped you would get the hint I dropped a couple times of asking how we manage things like the axes without an AoE taunt but I think it is just time for me to move on.
It isn't a problem I'm having, it's a problem with the game. Tank roles aren't in a healthy place in 4 man content. Power creep has pushed every other role to become extremely durable these days and tanks are less and less appealing. You'll see more "Fake Tank in Undaunted" threads popping up indefinitely if nothing changes. Devs need to either scale back everyone's defenses, make the enemies hit harder, or change something with tanking.
How could they improve things for tanks in 4 player content so that the role becomes more desirable? The OP brought up an old AOE taunt topic that was an old beaten dead horse from long ago. As expected, people are jumping all over it saying things like "You don't want to aggro everything, you'll die." Or "it wasn't the original design intent from the beginning." Those are both weak arguments, it's easy to survive all the mobs now in 4 player content and this game bears less semblance to what was originally designed.
Things have changed and more changes are still needed. An AOE taunt would give tanks extra utility. So you don't like an AOE taunt, what do you suggest?
I think we get it that you are attempting to address a problem you are having. However, since a great number of tanks have figured out how to accomplish what you are challenged with it is clear there is no need for your "solution".
Heck, you are now suggesting more changes to the game in an effort to justify the need for an AoE taunt and you suggest that it is a weak argument that the design of the game, the intent of the developers, is the weak argument. That is puzzling to me.
I honestly have no worries. There is extremely limited interest in an AoE taunt since it is clearly not needed. I suggest once again that you seek the solutions other tanks have for the issues you face so you can enjoy tanking confidently.
I know you can if you choose to.2 -
Flameheart✭✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.
Moving around is a loss of DPS unless you're ranged.
Even ranged DDs will lose a lot of dps (and ressources because of recasting ground dots like Elemental Blockade, Liquid Lightning etc.) if you move bosses or mobs too much around.
In fact that's exactly the illusion many "fake tanks" or groups with 3 DDs + healer have when they do such group setups. If they need to move a boss around because of hard hitting heavy and special attacks the dps gain in compare to normal trinity group setups is vain or you may even experience an overall decrease.
Edited by Flameheart on November 24, 2017 9:47AMSometimes the prey turns and nips us... it's a small thing.
So let the snow flakes and unicorns dance alone until they melt or vanish from existence, we will finish up with those smart enough to stay in the glowing circle of love.
Selissi - CP 1k+ Redguard Stamina Nightblade (Ebonheart Pact)
Silmerel - CP 1k+ Breton Magicka Templar (Ebonheart Pact)
Sunja - CP 1k+ Dunmer Magicka Nightblade (Ebonheart Pact)
Suldreni - CP 1k+ Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight (Ebonheart Pact)
Sulhelka - CP 1k+ Altmer Magicka Sorcerer (Ebonheart Pact)
Sylundine - CP 1k+ Breton Magicka Warden (Ebonheart Pact)0 -
commdt✭✭✭✭I simply wouldnt use it. Good old talons are far more reliable + direct taunt everything that is immune.Rawr1 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭Flameheart wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.
Moving around is a loss of DPS unless you're ranged.
Even ranged DDs will lose a lot of dps (and ressources because of recasting ground dots like Elemental Blockade, Liquid Lightning etc.) if you move bosses or mobs too much around.
In fact that's exactly the illusion many "fake tanks" or groups with 3 DDs + healer have when they do such group setups. If they need to move a boss around because of hard hitting heavy and special attacks the dps gain in compare to normal trinity group setups is vain or you may even experience an overall decrease.
That's true, holding the boss steady is key. And back on the topic at hand, it's especially easy to pull this off in trash mob fights, the mag sorc puts out a few big AOE damage skills and then stays in one spot beside the ranged mobs as melee adds cluster around. Things melt a lot faster that way. Something a few tank builds can't quite pull off as well.0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.Edited by Izaki on November 24, 2017 5:35PM@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Are you seriously saying that strong AoE DPSs need to gear to be tanky cause they pull agro?Also what are you talking about when you say DPS have to use defense against large groups of mobs?
A good DPS will most likely get a ton of aggro, and every build has simple options to survive without swapping out gear. And when exactly did I mention gear? I didn't but whatever. Here is a tiny sample out of many options to help you understand my point: Block, Roll dodge. That isn't DPS it's defense. It's time spent not hitting things with damage, a reduction in DPS. And DPS sometimes uses weaker skill morphs for healing and defense around tanks and healers all the time because sometimes the tank only has one or two things aggroed.paulsimonps wrote: »I know zero DPS that think that they are facing too much in trash mobs in Dungeons. Do you feel you have problem surviving in Dungeons?
Interesting! I know zero DPS that think they are facing too much in trash mobs in dungeons too. They're always prepared for anything. That's why I'm saying tank roles aren't a boon at all until they reach the few heavy hitting parts of a 4 person dungeon. That's why I'm saying they're boring and need something new.
Interesting. I can block while DPSing and lose virtually no DPS at all.@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »
If it is not needed in trials then it most certainly is not needed in 4 man content which is significantly easier and damage is significantly lower than vet trials.
Edited by idk on November 24, 2017 6:05PM1 -
AverageJo3Gam3r✭✭✭✭✭This again? An aoe taunt isn't needed. Run in, taunt the dangerous mobs, chain the archers/casters, talons everything, point them away from the group. This part of tanking is fun and interesting. The rest of tanking is holding left trigger and playing a resource mini game. Learn to tank.
An aoe taunt would cause more people to give up on tanking. It's already the most boring role to play.2 -
Maura_Neysa✭✭✭✭✭My Main is a Warden Tank, there is absolutely no reason for an AOE taunt. ESO is the most fun tanking I've ever had because it is so involved. A big part of that is Ad control, if I just had to run in and push 1 button, I'd be bored out of my mind. Staying on top of Ads , controlling the important ones, and grouping the less important ones.
Things like the struggle of Controlling all of Bloody Horns Atro's who are in the way, and keeping Bloody Horn because his heavy is a one shot. That's whats rewarding. If I just stood behind the column waiting for a shout and pressing taunt every 15 seconds, well that would make my skin worthless.AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »This again? An aoe taunt isn't needed. Run in, taunt the dangerous mobs, chain the archers/casters, talons everything, point them away from the group. This part of tanking is fun and interesting. The rest of tanking is holding left trigger and playing a resource mini game. Learn to tank.
An aoe taunt would cause more people to give up on tanking. It's already the most boring role to play.
I completely disagree, DPS is the most boring, followed by healing then tanking. The reason tanks are rare is because it takes patients (no damage when solo) and because it's the most complex. DPS is a memorized a rotation, and don't stand in red.
Tanking is about managing resources, health, and Ads all at once. There is no rotation.
If I heavy every 3rd rotation I risk being wide open when the bosses heavy comes.
If I dont heavy at all, I risk being out of stamina when the bosses heavy comes.
I'm lowest on the healers priorities because I have so much health.
If I'm not controlling the battlefield, I risk being the only one left standing.
Yes tanks are not always needed in the easier content, but in the harder content tanking will make or break the run.Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #NerfmireStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's CoadjutorDragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
MajorShehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,Warden 2x Bow DPSStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,Others
PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt
Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.1 -
Maura_Neysa✭✭✭✭✭No，that makes Tank more no brainer
How in the world is constantly having to change to the situation "no brainer?"Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #NerfmireStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's CoadjutorDragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
MajorShehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,Warden 2x Bow DPSStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,Others
PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt
Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maura_Neysa wrote: »
Proper tanking right now isn't a no brainer. If you do it right, you are doing crowd control, buffs, debuffs, and tracking the boss.
Adding an aoe taunt would certainly make tanks into a no brainer. All we'd have to do is taunt all the mobs, and hold permablock.0 -
Maura_Neysa✭✭✭✭✭Maura_Neysa wrote: »My Main is a Warden Tank, there is absolutely no reason for an AOE taunt. ESO is the most fun tanking I've ever had because it is so involved. A big part of that is Ad control, if I just had to run in and push 1 button, I'd be bored out of my mind. Staying on top of Ads , controlling the important ones, and grouping the less important ones.
Things like the struggle of Controlling all of Bloody Horns Atro's who are in the way, and keeping Bloody Horn because his heavy is a one shot. That's whats rewarding. If I just stood behind the column waiting for a shout and pressing taunt every 15 seconds, well that would make my skin worthless.VaranisArano wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »
Proper tanking right now isn't a no brainer. If you do it right, you are doing crowd control, buffs, debuffs, and tracking the boss.
Adding an aoe taunt would certainly make tanks into a no brainer. All we'd have to do is taunt all the mobs, and hold permablock.
You did read what I wrote right?Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #NerfmireStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's CoadjutorDragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
MajorShehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,Warden 2x Bow DPSStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,Others
PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt
Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maura_Neysa wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »My Main is a Warden Tank, there is absolutely no reason for an AOE taunt. ESO is the most fun tanking I've ever had because it is so involved. A big part of that is Ad control, if I just had to run in and push 1 button, I'd be bored out of my mind. Staying on top of Ads , controlling the important ones, and grouping the less important ones.
Things like the struggle of Controlling all of Bloody Horns Atro's who are in the way, and keeping Bloody Horn because his heavy is a one shot. That's whats rewarding. If I just stood behind the column waiting for a shout and pressing taunt every 15 seconds, well that would make my skin worthless.VaranisArano wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »
Proper tanking right now isn't a no brainer. If you do it right, you are doing crowd control, buffs, debuffs, and tracking the boss.
Adding an aoe taunt would certainly make tanks into a no brainer. All we'd have to do is taunt all the mobs, and hold permablock.
You did read what I wrote right?
Yes, I did, though I was half responding to the conversation you were having with Faint_One. Just clarifying why I disagree with him, on tanks being a no brainer, but agreeing that an AOE taunt would make it worse.Edited by VaranisArano on November 26, 2017 3:35AM0 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They've said no to this before and have given a list of reason (some legit, some BS)Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
Maura_Neysa✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »My Main is a Warden Tank, there is absolutely no reason for an AOE taunt. ESO is the most fun tanking I've ever had because it is so involved. A big part of that is Ad control, if I just had to run in and push 1 button, I'd be bored out of my mind. Staying on top of Ads , controlling the important ones, and grouping the less important ones.
Things like the struggle of Controlling all of Bloody Horns Atro's who are in the way, and keeping Bloody Horn because his heavy is a one shot. That's whats rewarding. If I just stood behind the column waiting for a shout and pressing taunt every 15 seconds, well that would make my skin worthless.VaranisArano wrote: »Maura_Neysa wrote: »
Proper tanking right now isn't a no brainer. If you do it right, you are doing crowd control, buffs, debuffs, and tracking the boss.
Adding an aoe taunt would certainly make tanks into a no brainer. All we'd have to do is taunt all the mobs, and hold permablock.
You did read what I wrote right?
Yes, I did, though I was half responding to the conversation you were having with Faint_One. Just clarifying why I disagree with him, on tanks being a no brainer, but agreeing that an AOE taunt would make it worse.
Oh in that case you're just unaware of the rest of what tanks do. How often to you ever hear anyone beside the tank calling out a fight, and those are just the mechanics we can't do anything about. A good tank is stopping/controlling every possible mechanic they can from happening to anyone else besides them through interrupts or enemy positioning.
For example Tree-Minder Na-Kesh.
- You have totems, Amberplasm and the statue to call out.
- Stone(whatever) NPCs that will one-shot DPS, archers to gather up so the DPS can AOE them down,
- Tree Minders and Chudans frontal AOEs to control. Xal-Nur constant charging to call out. At least now his charge doesn't negate the taunt anymore, Up until Horns, it wiped taunt.
- You're own health to watch (Healer gets silenced), your stamina (Which takes specific actions to restore or you leave yourself wide open)Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #NerfmireStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's CoadjutorDragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
MajorShehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,Warden 2x Bow DPSStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,Others
PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt
Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.0 -
Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because no matter that resource changes, ult gen, and damage reduction have all gone to crap. Let's keep tanks in the same place where only less than 1% of the games population will ever be able to use one outside of some dungeons.
Thats alot of fun there. And loads of diversity and game satisfying play as long as only a few are allowed to play it of course0
