Maelstrom bow not working properly since clockwork city update

Letho2469 · October 2017

Hey guys,

with the recent clockwork city update going live there was a change to maelstrom weapons: their unique effects have been reworked to be a set bonus (they were enchantments before). The bug can best be described when comparing how it worked pre-patch and how it works now (post-patch):

Affected Item: Maelstrom Bow (effects ability 'endless hail')
How it worked pre-patch:
As soon as the ability 'endless hail' was cast, the bow's effect was activated.

How it works now (post-patch):
The effect will be activated once endless hail deals damage for the first time after being cast, but ONLY! if the bow is still the active weapon.

Problem:
When using the bow on your back bar and a different weapon on your front bar (as most stamina damage dealers should) and performing your rotation properly, the effect will not trigger, as you have swaped back to your front bar before 'endless hail's' initial damage tick.

Standard back bar bow rotation:
caltrops => endless hail => poison injection => beast trap => [bar swap] => front bar rotation
^this will result in maelstrom bow's effect not being applied to the damage ticks of 'endless hail'; delaying the bar swap until the first damage tick occured and then switching to your front bar is working as intended, each tick will hit harder, even on you front bar.

Reproduction:
Cast endless hail, immediately swap back to your front bar (other weapon than maelstrom bow) and watch the damage numbers of endless hail (actually you don't need to swap immediately, there is even time to cast two other abilities and bar swap cancel the last ability's animation).

Solution:
Apply the maelstrom bow's effect on abilityUsed - event, not on the first damage tick.

Thanks for your attention, please fix it soon

Cheers, Letho

SaintSubwayy · October 2017

have you tried swapping Caltrops and endlesshail on your rotation?

Gilvoth · October 2017

Letho2469 wrote: »

When using the bow on your back bar and a different weapon on your front bar (as most stamina damage dealers should,
and performing your rotation properly, the effect will not trigger, as you have swaped back to your front bar before 'endless hail's' initial damage tick.
)

is it possible, that the part i highlighted, is not what the devs intend to be happening?
just a question.

Avran_Sylt · October 2017

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4503088#Comment_4503088

Noted on the PTS, and was responded to.

Given that it deals with how set interactions work with active/inactive bars, I don't think it is a quick fix. As mentioned above, it may not even be considered a bug at all.

Letho2469 · October 2017

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

have you tried swapping Caltrops and endlesshail on your rotation?

That is indeed the only workaround, but it's not optimal as you "waste" one gcd and spend a little more stamina than before on recasting caltrops prematurely.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

When using the bow on your back bar and a different weapon on your front bar (as most stamina damage dealers should,
and performing your rotation properly, the effect will not trigger, as you have swaped back to your front bar before 'endless hail's' initial damage tick.
)

is it possible, that the part i highlighted, is not what the devs intend to be happening?
just a question.

That is what I am saying, it's not working the way it used to anymore.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4503088#Comment_4503088

Noted on the PTS, and was responded to.

Given that it deals with how set interactions work with active/inactive bars, I don't think it is a quick fix. As mentioned above, it may not even be considered a bug at all.

The response is related to the other weapon problems, for reasons unknown they did not include the bow bug in the quote.
Whether it can be fixed quickly or not is pure speculation on our side, only devs can tell.

Don't see a reason why it should/can not be considered a bug. A statement would be nice @ZOS_GinaBruno.

Gilvoth · November 2017

Letho2469 wrote: »

that is what I am saying, it's not working the way it used to anymore..

since i have been in eso, i have witnessed many people try to claim that exploits are an intended effect.
they always claim that just because it is in the game it is in-fact intended. but we have seen time and time again that just is not true, and the only reason certain things remained in eso was because they simply don't yet have a fix.

as we can see here this thing you are referring to has been removed, and i am asking plainly if it was ever even intended.
because what you are talking about adds almost 700 more damage to a different weapon, not the bow and to me that looks like an exploit that has now been fixed.

but, i am simply a player and not a developer. so my view is not the words of a dev.

so, i am asking if it ever was intended.

Letho2469 · November 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

that is what I am saying, it's not working the way it used to anymore..

since i have been in eso, i have witnessed many people try to claim that exploits are an intended effect.
they always claim that just because it is in the game it is in-fact intended. but we have seen time and time again that just is not true, and the only reason certain things remained in eso was because they simply don't yet have a fix.

as we can see here this thing you are referring to has been removed, and i am asking plainly if it was ever even intended.
because what you are talking about adds almost 700 more damage to a different weapon, not the bow and to me that looks like an exploit that has now been fixed.

but, i am simply a player and not a developer. so my view is not the words of a dev.

so, i am asking if it ever was intended.

That is very unlikely for some reasons:

1. The maelstrom destruction staff works in a way the bow used to - they even applied a fix in the most recent patch because only one staff user in a raid would gain the advantage from elemental blockade while it was intended to be given to every player who uses the maelstrom staff, not only one. Blockade is a typical backbar ability that gets empowered by using the maelstrom staff, just the same way the maelstrom bow empowered volley/endless hail. Casting blockade on the ground and then swapping to the front bar sustains the effect => there is no reason for buffing a magicka ability by using a specific item and not doing it with the stamina pendant (bow), too.
2. Removing the freedom of swapping to the front bar if you want to maintain the advantage would make the maelstrom bow useless for everything different than pure bow builds - and those builds are not viable in pve settings. In PvP you don't use volley at all.
3. One could also turn your point around by mentioning that there are also many ppl who try convincing others of an intended behavior being an exploit to prevent them from using sth. that they think is too overpowered or simply out of a grudge because they are not able to acquire the specific item for themselves.

Gilvoth · November 2017

it is a horrible thing, when people choose to believe that an exploit is an intended feature.

WrathOfInnos · November 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

that is what I am saying, it's not working the way it used to anymore..

since i have been in eso, i have witnessed many people try to claim that exploits are an intended effect.
they always claim that just because it is in the game it is in-fact intended. but we have seen time and time again that just is not true, and the only reason certain things remained in eso was because they simply don't yet have a fix.

as we can see here this thing you are referring to has been removed, and i am asking plainly if it was ever even intended.
because what you are talking about adds almost 700 more damage to a different weapon, not the bow and to me that looks like an exploit that has now been fixed.

but, i am simply a player and not a developer. so my view is not the words of a dev.

so, i am asking if it ever was intended.

Wait, are you saying that you think the damage bonus on endless hail should be removed when swapping weapons? This would be inconsistent with every other set in the game, and I highly doubt is the intent. Higher ticks from VMA endless hail while on a dual wield bar would be a stretch to call an exploit. It's also completely unrelated to the original post in this thread.

This thread is about the new and possibly unintended requirement that one tick of endless hail damage hits before bar swapping for the VMA enchant to work. Endless hail is one of the skills with an "instant cast" but a long animation, so it was commonly used last before bar swapping to limit the wasted time.

Letho2469 · November 2017

Could we please get an update on this matter? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?

TheYKcid · November 2017

I hoped this gets fixed. Also, it would be nice if they could apply the same fix to the Master's bow (you currently need to wait for the poison arrow to impact the target before barswapping, or you do not get the bonus).

SodanTok · November 2017

This is kinda standard behavior of sets in this game. Game checks for their effect on hit not on skill press.

Letho2469 · November 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

This is kinda standard behavior of sets in this game. Game checks for their effect on hit not on skill press.

Not true. Maelstrom weapons checked onAbilityUse when they were enchantments and AFAIK most of them are still working this way.

SodanTok · November 2017

Letho2469 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

This is kinda standard behavior of sets in this game. Game checks for their effect on hit not on skill press.

Not true. Maelstrom weapons checked onAbilityUse when they were enchantments and AFAIK most of them are still working this way.

Notice I never spoke about enchants, but about sets. I dont know what you mean with "most of them". I am not aware of any set that will have effect from backbar to frontbar unless it specificaly buffs/debuffs target on cast before you switch.

Reverb · November 2017

This seems consistent with how other sets work and is probably an unintended, but permanent, change now that the damage buff is a set calculation. If I have a 5-piece proc set on one bar, and lay down a DoT, then swap to a bar with a weapon from a different set, the first set will never proc because it's no longer the active set, even though it was active when I set the dot. This is the same. RIP Maelstrom bow.

Izaki · November 2017

Yeah no. Your back bar rotation is not optimal. Like at all.

Endless Hail lasts 11.5 seconds. Caltrops lasts 12 seconds, Trap lasts 15 seconds and Injection lasts 10 seconds. Most full rotations lasts between 11 and 12 seconds, which means that you aren't losing any time on Hail or Caltrops, you have 3 overridden seconds on Trap (which is no big deal since its a pretty weak DoT, but it gives us 100% Minor Force uptime) and you theoretically have no downtime on Poison Injection either since it ticks every 2 seconds. This is true no matter which order you chose to use on the back bar.

Hail and Trap are delayed, Caltrops and Injection are instant. In order to maximize burst while on the back bar, the rotation you should be doing is: Hail > Trap > Caltrops > Injection. That way, all your DoTs start dealing at roughly the same time which will spike your DPS right before you swap to your front bar, which is a good thing. Not to mention the fact that when you cast Endless Hail first on the bow bar, it will get buffed by Hawk Eye the most, thus making it deal even more DPS.

And even then, with the rotation you listed, the Maelstrom bow effect will. There's a 1.5 second delay between the time when its applied and starts ticking, so unless you can do LA > Injection > LA > Trap in less than 1.5 seconds (its impossible due to GCDs) the vMA bow will activate.

Nonetheless, you've got the wrong order of skills going on the back bar. Hail should always be the first skill to be activated, its like this since Morrowind.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/lI Izaki Il/video/39353820

Apache_Kid · November 2017

Did anyone ever get a response in a different thread on whether or not this is actually a bug or an intended change to the bow?

Izaki · November 2017

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Did anyone ever get a response in a different thread on whether or not this is actually a bug or an intended change to the bow?

Since its a set bonus, this definitely seems like an intended change. Your set bonus won't activate if you aren't on the bar with that set bonus. The Master's Bow works the same way.

kylewwefan · November 2017

So, I finally get a maelstrom bow and now it is suck? Fml

SodanTok · November 2017

kylewwefan wrote: »

So, I finally get a maelstrom bow and now it is suck? Fml

If by sucks you mean it is still the must have weapon on every stam builds and barely anything changed from before, then yes, it sucks

Izaki · November 2017

kylewwefan wrote: »

So, I finally get a maelstrom bow and now it is suck? Fml

Maelstrom Bow is still by far the strongest stamina DPS weapon in the game (like by VERY far). You just need to use it properly, which is basically just doing the right rotation. It doesn't suck at all.

Apache_Kid · November 2017

Izaki wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Did anyone ever get a response in a different thread on whether or not this is actually a bug or an intended change to the bow?

Since its a set bonus, this definitely seems like an intended change. Your set bonus won't activate if you aren't on the bar with that set bonus. The Master's Bow works the same way.

So the consensus seems to be with these weapons that you need to wait for it to hit to get the effects after you swap bars? Do we know for sure that the effects stay active even after the dmg tick and swapping bars? Only curious because i just got myself a vMA bow and have not had time to test it out at all as I am still grinding for the lightning staff.

Apache_Kid · November 2017

kylewwefan wrote: »

So, I finally get a maelstrom bow and now it is suck? Fml

I think its more a matter of adjusting your rotation to make sure endless hail is the first back bar ability you cast. Granted I just got one myself but from reading what others have said it's still good. You just want to cast it before caltrops and PI.

kylewwefan · November 2017

So it is still good! Is it not as good as was or something? I’m somewhat confused about that

Ok got it.

Hail, Trap, caltrop, inject