Double post, man.

But if you really want a melee class, play a stamina character with no bow or gap closers.

Necromancer next or ZOS can DIAF.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Ah, but extending the skill lines would just expand the -skills- of the existing classes not the -classes- themselves!

And the idea is, that it would be an add-on, not a respec. So, the three original skill lines would be unchanged, just a fourth added - with three choices as to which flavor of fourth...

In other words, it would require a respec if ZOS broke anything, or even if you wanted to shuffle your abilities around significantly. Unlike now where if you want to completely retool your class on the fly, the only serious worry is if you wanted to change from magicka to stamina or vice versa.

This is to say nothing of the headache for trying to figure out what the "class" morph would actually do. So... does taking the shadow upgrade help my nightblade be more sneaky? Better resource recovery? Is it for tanking? What about the Siphoning one?

You see these problems a lot in mods for Bethesda games. Being able to accurately relay information to the player quickly is a problem. Particularly if you're asking them to make a persistent choice.

If you pick up an active ability and find out you don't like it... you can just replace it. If you take a morph and later realize that you pulled the wrong one, well, oops. Asking someone to evaluate an entire skill line that alters the rest of your class in a way that's substantial enough to be considered its own class... yeah, that's a pretty tough sell.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Maybe... someone might testdrive such things on the PTS?

I'm sure that will be extremely helpful for the console players.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Or wait until a helpful spirit writes up a guide after testdriving them? Like happens with classes and such?

But, don't forget to follow Deletia's advice, and remember that, "every class is worthless except the Dragon Knight." Or that "Two-Handers are worthless except in PvP."

Three problems here. First, our community is a bit... neurotic. Especially when you're talking about the guys doing the builds. There's a lot of people who will gleefully declare that, "this is worthless," or "that never works," "don't use this option at all, it's a noob trap."

You know what? Sometimes, yeah, there's some truth to the claims. A lot of the time, there's people who aren't quite as sharp as they think they are, making sweeping declarations.

Two, once you put a guide out there, it tends to stick around. In the last 72 hours, I've had to tell someone that Deltia's guide to tanks from 2014 is completely out of date (they were trying to use the inhale/GDB loop, and wanting to know why it didn't work), and had to explain to someone that, "no, really, you don't need to be a werewolf regardless of build," because the passive stamina regen buff went away two years ago.

Out of date guides do not do anyone any good, but they do confuse people. And, they linger. If you want to say this isn't a specific problem with your suggestion that's partially true, except:

Three, you need to provide as much salient information to the player about build decisions. You do not want an MMO filled with noob traps. Now, I know, that does happen, but it doesn't mean you should leap into it with abandon. If you're putting a morph on the board now, the game gives you specific statistical data about what it includes. What the ability will do once you have it. There is no way to do that for an entire skill line at once, much less ask someone to make an intelligent decision between three skill lines, where you're asking them to evaluate 15 passives, 6 ultimates, and 30 skills (once you account for morphs). Ask someone to choose between two modifications for a skill they've already been using? Cool. Ask them to choose in advance for a wide range of class altering skills? That's a bit steep.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...you mean, like the specializations in SW-TOR?

No, but I kinda suspected that feted mess was behind this suggestion.

The entire reason TOR has class specializations is because, without them, you really don't have any build options in TOR. You pick your class, and... really, that's kinda it. (Yes, I know there is some choice available, but nothing that really changes your build in a significant way. You can summarize TOR characters by their specialization and, pretty much, stop there. (Less than that now, since I seem to recall TOR now has dual-speccing.))

There's no mechanic like in ESO, where a given class can be played in different ways by swapping out the equipment, or selecting different abilities.

Right now, in ESO, you could roll up a sorc, stick them in a robe, give them a staff, and have a traditional mage. Or, you could stick them in heavy armor, give them a sword and shield, and build a fairly solid tank. Or stick them in medium armor, give them dual daggers, and create an assassin.

That's the role that TOR's Specializations fill in. You have a preset list of skills. Your class can use those. All of those. But that's it. There's no general pool of skills the way ESO has. The closest you get is through the legacy system when you start unlocking class signature skills... which, leads to an even bigger weirdness when your Smugglers or Soldiers have the ability to force choke someone.

Want to make your DK a healer in ESO? You don't need a specialization to do it. You can simply grab a resto staff and tinker around. Want to take the equivalent class in TOR (either Jedi Guardian, Sith Warrior, Bounty Hunter or Soldier, depending on your perspective) and make them a healer? Well... you're out of luck.

At this point it's worth remembering, one of the major healer picks in ESO is the Nightblade. While the class does have some healing options baked into its morphs, this is not a class built around healing. With TOR there is no class that can pull triple duty depending on the choices you make. You're either choosing from a class that can be a DPS or Healer, or taking a class that can be a tank or a DPS.

This is the problem with your idea from the ground up. You're trying to solve a problem that does not exist in ESO, because of how the game has been designed, by taking a system from a game that doesn't offer internal build diversity in a class. As a result, TOR needs that kind of PRC system.

In fact, right now, each class in ESO does have three different sub-classes. Each skill line has its own distinct theme, and if you were so inclined, you could make a restricted build from just one of those.

Now, PRCs can be cool. Especially in games that have a legitimate need for that kind of a system. Games where your class is far more directed than ESO's are.

If, for example, ESO locked you into a single armor type and weapon choices, based on your class, I could certainly see the value in a Prestige Class system, where you could open that up. "Nightblades are Medium Only? Well, look at this PRC, that lets you equip light armor, and equip Staves? Or how about this Arcane Warrior PRC for your Sorcs that let them equip heavy armor along with a 2h and a Sword 'n board."

PRCs made sense in D&D because, even in 3.5, classes were still fairly restrictive (some more than others). So if you had a certain build concept for a character, a PRC might be your only way to explore those concepts. Also, especially for D&D, PRCs are one way to indicate that your character is unique in the world, in some way. PRCs like Weapon Master, or Master of Many Forms represent singular skills that set your character apart. PRCs like Dragon Slayer reflect your character's achievements, and how those have changed who they are. PRCs like Dragon Disciple, Heartwarder, Pale Master, and even the basic Monk class all reflect that your character is in the process of transforming into something else. Finally, classes like the Doomguide, Purple Dragon Knight, or any of the Harper classes represent membership within an organization, as well as (sometimes) your role within it.

I'll be honest, for what it is, I like how 3e handles classes, and allows players to pick from the menu. It allows for diverse characters that fit well into their settings, and can build a real history for a character, as you advance. Each time you level up in 3e or 3.5, you're marking a threshold in that character's life. That said, it doesn't work well for MMO style games, where what you did last week may not be relevant, or may need to be scrapped with the next update.

Now, PRCs have never made much sense for characters in TES games. Maybe you could make an argument for Arena, but Daggerfall had a robust class customization system reminiscent of AD&D's kits, and by the time we get to TES3, the nature of the games had changed such that you could comfortably go out of class to expand your character's horizons, if you saw fit.

ESO may be the most restrictive class system in an Elder Scrolls title since Battlespire, but it's still pretty open overall. When you pick a class, you have a lot of latitude to tinker with it and get something you enjoy from it. In fact, it already incorporates something like PRCs into the game. The guild, world weapon, and armor skill lines, serve some of the same purpose as a PRC. The guild and world skills set your character apart and provide a passing sense of uniqueness without creating an inherently imbalanced experience. (Though, I'm sure anyone who's ended up behind me on one of my Blade of Woe rampages through a delve may disagree.)

To be claear, I don't think the game actually needs additional skills and ultimates in each class skill line, just that I think expanding them could offer some interesting new options, and give ZOS another chance to expand on the class flavors. Locking people into a subversion of the class, given the way ESO has been designed (with a limited selection of active skills at any one time, that can be changed at will), suggesting a PRC system just doesn't sound like a good addition.

Now, if you said you wanted to add more skill lines in general, that's a much less controversial position. But asking someone to pick between skill lines, before they've had a chance to use and experiment with them, would not improve the experience.

Tranquil_Fairy wrote: »

A shapeshifter, Druid.. Enough said.

Roll up your Warden and get a Werewolf bite.

Range Stam abilites / skill-line

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Three problems here...

...which are -all- the exact same problems one faces with classes themselves.

Compound those problems, with far less flexibility, while asking the player to, again, make a blind decision up front.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Oh, and... I think you may have missed ony tiny little line from my concept:

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...such a morph could of course be redone just like skill morphs...

See? I am not advocating -locking- people into a class morph... I am saying the choice should be reversable, allowing them for example to respec their newly tried warlock to a plain sorceror, and try necromancer instead (though with the new skill line needing maxing out on their own, just like if you switch to a different morph in skills)
Does that make it better?

No, ironically, because it becomes one more factor of your build that you can screw up, and have to run back to a shrine to fix. With a bonus, due to complexity, that you might not realize it's not working out for quite some time, while playing.

As it exists, morphs are almost immediately identifiable as a mistake. Not always, for all players, but you're committing to small tweaks. This is not a small tweak.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...you mean, like the specializations in SW-TOR?

No, but I kinda suspected that feted mess was behind this suggestion.

Then you suspected wrong, it went back quite a bit further then that. The AD&D "Prestige Classes" were the actual inspiration.

Third Edition. AD&D was never really built around the idea of PRCs. Those were a late addition, in the run up to Third. Kits were another example. What you're describing would be far more like a kit, but again, go back and look at them. You'll see specific information about what they modify at selection. Attempting something similar in ESO would result in a wall of text, you know, kinda like these posts.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

There's no mechanic like in ESO, where a given class can be played in different ways by swapping out the equipment, or selecting different abilities.

...and boy am I thankful for that!

Though my idea would be a contuniation of that concept, simple adding further diversification.

Ultimately, it wouldn't actually diversify the classes, though. Knowing this community, it would actually reduce the variety you saw, as players identified broken synergies in the expanded material and gravitated to them.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

This is the problem with your idea from the ground up. You're trying to solve a problem that does not exist in ESO, because of how the game has been designed, by taking a system from a game that doesn't offer internal build diversity in a class.

Actually... different problem.
I don't see my concept as trying to solve the "class-pigeonhole" problem, since as you outlined, ESO does not have that problem.
I see it as trying to solve the problem how to give people more choices, without vexing those who already spent three years playing a dozend characters by locking those choices to newly made characters...

I know ZOS is hostile to the idea of class respecs, but, really, that's still a better option. Yes, we'd have to grind up our base skill lines again, we understand.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

In fact, right now, each class in ESO does have three different sub-classes. Each skill line has its own distinct theme, and if you were so inclined, you could make a restricted build from just one of those.

That actually is wrong - since every character has all those skill lines, they are -not- sub-classes, they are options available for all, and each player can choose whatever they feel like.

Again, they are there as a distinct sub-class. Each skill line does present a different take on the class.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And change their choices by merely swapping their skill selection. Or are you saying, players only level one skill line? No, that would be silly, right?

Yes, it would be silly. Almost as silly as asking a player to only pick one, and then lock them out of the other two, much like your suggestion. You're asking to add three more skill lines, and then force them to only take one of those.

If someone rolls up a Warden, and starts taking Winter's Embrace, they're not locked out of using Animal Companions and Green Balance. Which is a good thing, because Winter's Embrace is kinda terrible for non-tanks.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

It would be far more viable to claim the armor lines make for different sub-classes (light-magica, medium-stamina, heavy-tanky in either flavor), but since that can be swapped around if someone decides to build their character for it (not like anything keeps you from levelling multiple armor lines after all, even tho it may be a bit ineffective use of your skill points), well... a bit less of a -choice- then I'd like.

And, again, it would be objectively horrible if the game locked you to a single armor weight once you picked it, and required a full skill respec to clear that. Which, again, is effectively the kind of front loaded decision you're suggesting.

If you wanted to add another three skill lines, cool. But don't make them mutually exclusive. Any value taken from diversifying the classes would not benefit from locking a player out of options when they started taking them.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Now, PRCs have never made much sense for characters in TES games. Maybe you could make an argument for Arena, but Daggerfall had a robust class customization system reminiscent of AD&D's kits, and by the time we get to TES3, the nature of the games had changed such that you could comfortably go out of class to expand your character's horizons, if you saw fit.

ESO may be the most restrictive class system in an Elder Scrolls title since Battlespire, but it's still pretty open overall. When you pick a class, you have a lot of latitude to tinker with it and get something you enjoy from it. In fact, it already incorporates something like PRCs into the game. The guild, world weapon, and armor skill lines, serve some of the same purpose as a PRC. The guild and world skills set your character apart and provide a passing sense of uniqueness without creating an inherently imbalanced experience. (Though, I'm sure anyone who's ended up behind me on one of my Blade of Woe rampages through a delve may disagree.)

See above. This is not the issue I am adressing - I agree that ESO does not -need- prestige classes because its already pretty free in weapon and armor selection, way moreso then many other systems where classes are locked in their chioces on that regard.

The issue I am adressing is the ESO players desire for more diversification, as expressed in all the "give us necromancy! Give us illusionist! Give us battlemage! Give us..." threads. Only I wrote up a concept to -refit- those ideas to existing classes, so they can be enjoyed by -everyone-, and to make a horizontal progression where people can get new skills that get them playing to max and morph them, thuis breathing new life into characters that may have gotten a bit boring for them, without those new skills actually being an advantage, merely more options to enjoy.

Illusion already shows up on the Nightblade's Shadow Skill Line. To say nothing of the whining for Necromancer we've been hearing for years.

Again, expand the classes? Sure, fine. Lock those behind a hard binary wall, and it just won't work.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

To be claear, I don't think the game actually needs additional skills and ultimates in each class skill line, just that I think expanding them could offer some interesting new options, and give ZOS another chance to expand on the class flavors. Locking people into a subversion of the class, given the way ESO has been designed (with a limited selection of active skills at any one time, that can be changed at will), suggesting a PRC system just doesn't sound like a good addition.

Well, there our opinions differ - I happen to think it would be great to have more diverse character options then merely expanding on the same old four (plus one now, for some) classes rather then just tack more skills on what is already there.

I mean... count the threads that say "give us more skills for DK/NB/So/Te/Wa", then count the ones that say "give us necromancer/illusionist/battlemage/-whatever-" and see which is more desired...
...I just want those "give us more classyness" to be available for all characters, not just newly made ones. That's the whole idea behind my class morph concept! Not fixing some lack of playst<yle pidgeonholing to ESo classes, since ESO classes don't have that issue as much as most other games. But to bring more options and more choices in a way that all can enjoy, isntead of making people start new characters once again when adding a class.

Then, again, the better suggestion would be for class respec options. Again, I know, ZOS has said "no" on that, but it is a much better solution to, "hey, here's a new class, migrate to that." For everything else, there's alts.

Yeah, I only have two Wardens, because you need to roll up new characters to use that class. Would I have more if we could respec our classes? No, probably not.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Now, if you said you wanted to add more skill lines in general, that's a much less controversial position. But asking someone to pick between skill lines, before they've had a chance to use and experiment with them, would not improve the experience.

Oh, I would want more skill lines in general as well... as anyone following my "usual suspects" ought to know:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371862/additional-weapon-skill-ideas-mk-ii
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/306759/additional-guild-ideas
...but I really, really like it when people have to make "either-or" choices once in a while, and not get to "choose everything". (Yeah, I do the same in my guild ideas as well - but even there I also think people should be able to reverse their choices should they feel dissatisfied with them!)

So, two things.

You have a game design where you commit to a choice. You go out there, decide between two options, and move forward.

Okay, for that to work, both options need to be valid. If you've got a choice that is sub-optimal, it's a noob trap. Players who don't know better may take it, and are punished, while no one who understands the choice they're making would do so.

For example, take the XCOM reboot's sniper class: Your first skill choice is between Snapshot and Squadsight. Squadsight lets you have visuals on a target so long as any member of your squad can see them, and you have a line of fire. Snapshot allows you to move and fire your rifle in the same turn (normally, you cannot fire the sniper rifle if you've already moved.)

Sounds like equivalent options. Both open up your options to access and attack enemies at longer ranges. Except, Snapshot is objectively the worse choice. Because of mechanics like how the Sniper Rifles generate their to hit modifiers, Squadsight is massively more potent, and at higher levels, it has synergies with skills like Double Tap or In The Zone, which makes it hilariously more lethal. (Almost XCOM2 levels of attacks per turn, in some cases.)

But, this is the first choice you make on that character. Because of how the game is designed, you don't know what skills will pop up further down the skill tree, and can't make an informed choice about which will be more valuable.

Now, XCOM can get away with this because soldiers are fragile, and poor build decisions are likely to be wiped away by your soldier dying, and replacing them.

In an RPG, something like this will get most players to reload an old save.

In an MMO, making an objectively bad decision that seriously interferes with their character's effectiveness like this can actually get players to leave. Because of the time commitment, and the inability to reverse their error. (Within this context it's important to remember how often you'll see players asking if it's even possible to respec in ESO. Also worth noting the number of players who, upon being told you couldn't respec in Secret World would simply log, never to be heard from again.)

So, no. I can get behind the idea of committing to serious changes for a character. Hell, I still love Grim Dawn and the XCOM reboots for what they do. But, it's not a mechanic that you want to see in an MMO.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

So, no. I can get behind the idea of committing to serious changes for a character.

Okay, I get it.
You dislike commiting to any choices and want to have everything, all things, all the time.

Hardly. I'm pretty happy with the prospect of committing to serious changes. Hell, one of my favorite mechanics for an RPG is where decisions have a permanent physical effect on the character. For example, the Dragon Disciple class from D&D or Bound by Flame's transformation (even if that was driven by character choices rather than point allocation.) I probably wouldn't have nearly as many vampires in ESO as I do, if this wasn't the case.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I on the other hand like having to make choices, like having some drawbacks with my advantages, like having things different then everyone being a "candoitall" clone. And as such, would love to see more choices added to ESO instead of blending evrything into a more bland soup.

Hardly. Your character build is restricted in ESO to the abilities you actually have slotted. It's a much more forgiving and adaptable game structure than you'd get off a lot of MMOs. As a result it's a lot more accessible to players who are unfamiliar with MMOs, or get intimidated by their abilities colonizing all sides of their screen.

As a result, it also gives you a great deal more control over your build. Personally, I think it would be amazing if each of your equipped skills applied some visual item to your character. Really sell the idea that your character is carrying around this specific loadout.

Hell, at that point, I'd even be in favor of The Secret World's system, where you have one bar of abilities but can pull either equipped weapon depending on the ability used.

I like having to make hard choices about what you can actually slot.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Its a wonder you ever made it past having to -gasp- pick a class!

So the Grim Dawn thing sailed over your head? Go, take a look at it. Seriously. I think it's on sale on Steam right now. Really cool class system. Also, Titan Quest shared the same developers. It's a bit older, but it has a similar class system. (Seriously, I just checked, TQ is 4 bucks on Steam at the moment.)

I ****ing love those games.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

But, it's not a mechanic that you want to see in an MMO.

Correction - its not a mechanic -You, personally- want to see in an MMO.
I, personally, would love to see it.

Actually you wouldn't. I don't mean that this is a kind of decision you don't appreciate. I'm sure it's something you find quite gratifying. I get that. No, I'm talking about the knock-on effect it has for the community.

MMOs are far more dependent on player engagement. You need people to stick around, and keep playing. In the old days this was just because you needed their subscription fees. Now, though, it's more about you need them to keep the community lifelike.

There is a real issue when you start locking MMO players in. Classes get a partial pass on this subject because they're familiar. But, when you delve deeper in, subsiquent decision points like this can be a serious turnoff for prospective players.

Again, this isn't an abstract idea, I've actually seen this happen in other MMOs.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

So let's just agree to disagree on that point, all right?

And in doing so, stop throwing walls of text at each other, since we both made our points, wne obviosuly won't concince each other...

Seriously, take a look at TQ. It's dirt cheap right now. Very interesting class system. Not something you'd want in an MMO, but probably still something you'd enjoy.

CardboardedBox wrote: »

If you want a "different" melee class, just make a full poison based dragonknight build. Use as many poison abilities you can, and use sets that involve poison/disease. It almost feels like a whole new class.

Supporting it with Viper is probably a good idea. I'd recommend Sheer Venom, but DKs don't have access to many executes. Maybe Night Terror as your second set.

Please, no more pet classes. We have too many as it is...so that's a big "hell no" to a necromancer class. I have no desire to add more classes, much better to add more skills, or unlock existing skills to classes that normally wouldn't have access to them.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I hope for no more classes. I want class lines. Spellcrafting. Weapon skills. Martial arts techniques. Etc.

I could even see adding racial active skills... New weapon skill lines would require new weapons, but... you know, polearms? Crossbows? Illusion Staves? Punch Cat!