Is overland content, post starting zones too easy, for you?

Kamatsu · November 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

tl;dr
What I want to say is people shouldn't underestimate the income of players that are around for a while. Or in the opposite, ignore the loss of veteran players due to boredom.

Guild Wars 2 listened to people crying for harder content, that made claims exactly like you are - that the people who like hard content are a significant number and spend lots of money. So they make the "Heart of Thorns" expansion much, much harder than the base game, it was solo unfriendly, lots of group-or-don't-continue checkpoint's.... with the claims that by the time people got to this content they should "know how to play", be able to play their class, adapt, etc.... sound familiar right?

In the next 6 months after the launch of this 'hard' expansion they suffered a 67% loss of income. If you look at a line graph of that... it's close to vertically downwards.

Why? Because the vast majority of players who bought gems to spend in their store for costumes, skins, appearance-changes (ie the same stuff that's in ESO's crown store) were players who liked the casual easy-to-play style from the base game.... and who were completely and utterly put off by how hard, how difficult, how solo-unfriendly the new expansion was.

The official forums and Reddit were filled for weeks with thread after thread, post after post, with people complaining how hard it was, how unfriendly it was, how they were struggling to get anywhere, that to advance their character and/or story required group-friendly and/or group-only encounters, etc.

The loss of income for ANet was so dramatic and heavy they apologized and nerfed the content so it was much easier, that people could progress the story and/or character without being forced through group friendly/only encounter's, etc. Do you really think a company would nerf open-world content that much if the 'players who like hard content' actually paid equivalently to the more easy-loving player?

Of course they wouldn't. ANet was a business, and saw their income plummeting and that if they didn't do something fast they'd potentially face being shutdown by NCSoft within a few quarters for underperforming even Wildstar. ZOS is exactly the same - they are a business, and will cater to the biggest source of income - the casual / easy-content loving people.

GW2, prior to going free-to-play, had the exact same income structure as ESO - box sales with optional cosmetic cash shop. Unlike ESO it didn't have an optional sub.

And same thing would happen in ESO if they were to implement the idea's put forth by every "make the game harder" thread... it would chase away the casual/easy-content players and ZOS would see their income plummet... and unlike ANet, they'd prolly just pull the plug and close ESO rather than admit they made a major mistake listening to an extremely vocal extreme minority.

As for the whole 'people will learn' thing.. no they don't. Most players couldn't be bothered reading forums, watching guides, etc... those who do make up the minority of any MMO / online game. Most people will go with whatever they feel like, whatever looks cool, whatever they got in the order they get it and if they can't beat content with whatever the game hands them directly... they leave and go to other games.

And yes, I've run into people in the ending regions of the game who were still using light & heavy attacks along with the 1st (and only) skill they had unlocked, hadn't bothered to put points in their attributes... and were completely struggling and dying quickly because of this. For some reason thery had been struggling on because they really liked the story and setting. Yes if you're wondering I did help them out by pointing out the attribute's and skills (and they are doing much better now, and much more happy playing the game).

But these are not the minority of players. This is the majority. Most people want to come home from work, start up their favorite game and play for 30-60 minutes in their spare time before/after dinner, or when they have some moments on the weekend. They don't want to have to 'think' or be stressed, or worry about what to wear, what skills to use, etc. Gaming is a relaxant for them.. they do it to relieve themselves of work/family/life stress and forget their troubles. Not to have to figure out what the attack pattern is, or timings of skills, or which stats are best, etc.

Make the game they enjoy/like too hard and they will not 'learn', they will not 'adapt', they won't look up guides or video's, they won't go to forums, etc... they will just stop playing and go to another game that lets them relax and enjoy themselves without having to think, plan, study, etc.

And it's these players who like to make their characters look pretty, or beefy, or dress them up in whatever fantasy they have for the character. They have no problem buying crowns willy nilly if something in the store takes their fancy... as it's enjoyment for them and they have the spare cash. Take away the enjoyment, and they leave... they leave, so does their money.

And as games such as Guild Wars 2, Wildstar, etc have found out... those wanting hard content, group-focused content, etc... are a much smaller slice of the player base than the casual easy-loving crowd.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Far too easy.

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

idk wrote: »

It is not intended to be challenging to most. Have never seen overland in any game be a challenge to a mildly skilled player.

As I said above, I don't think it's intentional. They just don't know how to fix this. It would be awesome if everybody could play at their appropriate difficulty level in the open world of an MMO and I'm sure ZOS agrees with this.

It's likely completely intentional.

As I indicated, the current status quo for MMORPGs is his Zos chose to setup ESO overland difficulty. You can think Zos agrees with you but all indications are they don't. You can think Zos doesn't know how to change it (not fix it cause it ain't broke) when it's merely their choice to not implement a change

In realy isn't that hard for Zos to add a system where we can choose from a few settings to nerf our character, hence increasing the difficulty level. They seem to think the effort is not worth it. They're correct.

No they aren't correct.

What is at least 75% of this game's content including the added DLC content?

It's exploration/questing and overland content.

So if they want high level characters to remain interested in their game and the expansions they expect them to buy it's very important that they make this content challenging enough to where it's interesting to play for them. Frankly I find this idea that most of the game should be balanced around new players just starting out bordering on the absurd.

ZoS can keep the monsters at their current difficulty levels in the starter zones if they are afraid of chasing off newer players. But the other zones and enemies further along in the game should have their health and stats boosted to where they provide a temporary danger to high level characters. Or at least an option to do so needs to be there. Because as another poster pointed out - this game is quickly turning into a hello kitty tea party. Outside of the world bosses, the rest of the landscape enemies really may as well not even be there as they melt if you look at them funny. And I don't even play a DPS character. So I can just imagine those who do. I bet they don't even live a second (and I'm not exaggerating).

The purpose of adding enemies and monsters to a map is to make it seem more alive and dangerous. If they fail at doing that then they are pointless to have.

I understand that Zos' choice on this matter, and really the choice of major MMORPGs is not something you agree with. However, this design is tried and true in todays market. It is proven to be great for revenue and this is a business first and foremost.

As for the balancing you mention, your example is not really accurate. Most of the game is balanced around new and casual players. Those groups make up a huge portion of the player base. You mentioned starter zones when Zos does not have starter zones. All the alliance zones are intended for leveling (and more since we no longer have vet ranks) and it might just be bad business for Zos to cordon off DLCs for more experienced players since limiting sales would put a damper on revenue.

The challenge MMOS put into these games is with instanced content like raids and in the case of ESO, these trials. Well, for some we an toss in the dungeons as well. It is pretty much a standard design to have different content and different difficulty level.

Maybe you should check out the trials, especially vet and HM. Either way, this design works for the business model. As long as it does it will not change since that is what determines what is correct and what is not.

God I am sotired of hearing this argument. What about what is good for the game, what is good for the title, what is good for gameplay, what is good for progression? I understand that profits are important, but good god, its called a video game, not a fantasy business investment.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Far too easy.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

idk wrote: »

It is not intended to be challenging to most. Have never seen overland in any game be a challenge to a mildly skilled player.

As I said above, I don't think it's intentional. They just don't know how to fix this. It would be awesome if everybody could play at their appropriate difficulty level in the open world of an MMO and I'm sure ZOS agrees with this.

It's likely completely intentional.

As I indicated, the current status quo for MMORPGs is his Zos chose to setup ESO overland difficulty. You can think Zos agrees with you but all indications are they don't. You can think Zos doesn't know how to change it (not fix it cause it ain't broke) when it's merely their choice to not implement a change

In realy isn't that hard for Zos to add a system where we can choose from a few settings to nerf our character, hence increasing the difficulty level. They seem to think the effort is not worth it. They're correct.

No they aren't correct.

What is at least 75% of this game's content including the added DLC content?

It's exploration/questing and overland content.

So if they want high level characters to remain interested in their game and the expansions they expect them to buy it's very important that they make this content challenging enough to where it's interesting to play for them. Frankly I find this idea that most of the game should be balanced around new players just starting out bordering on the absurd.

ZoS can keep the monsters at their current difficulty levels in the starter zones if they are afraid of chasing off newer players. But the other zones and enemies further along in the game should have their health and stats boosted to where they provide a temporary danger to high level characters. Or at least an option to do so needs to be there. Because as another poster pointed out - this game is quickly turning into a hello kitty tea party. Outside of the world bosses, the rest of the landscape enemies really may as well not even be there as they melt if you look at them funny. And I don't even play a DPS character. So I can just imagine those who do. I bet they don't even live a second (and I'm not exaggerating).

The purpose of adding enemies and monsters to a map is to make it seem more alive and dangerous. If they fail at doing that then they are pointless to have.

[/snip]

Maybe you should check out the trials, especially vet and HM. Either way, this design works for the business model. As long as it does it will not change since that is what determines what is correct and what is not.

This is not about vet trials or even vet dungeons. This is about the biggest part of and some major selling point: the story and the exploration: the overland content. Not to mention that the argument "OL content is not for you, but trials are" doesn't stand strong when trials and dungeons are aviable in easy mode as well.

We completely understand that someone fresh with not a single hour spend should not be demotivated by too high difficulty. But why should someone who actually decides to stick with the game be demotivated to stay/ buy new DLCs/ doing core part of TES games by too low difficulty? If I sub, buy DLCs or grab stuff from the crown store it generates revenue as well. So it might be profitable to cater not only to the "single biggest audience" but to most players as possible. Nevertheless I'd finally like to get some source that confirms that players with higher than "fresh of the boat" skill level don't spend good money on their games. I mean, if they decide to stay, learn and progress, spend thousands of hours one ought to think they are willing to spend money for a fancy castle. And not just/only the guys that doesn't made it through the wailing prison.

tl;dr
What I want to say is people shouldn't underestimate the income of players that are around for a while. Or in the opposite, ignore the loss of veteran players due to boredom.

Exactly, and at this point I am actually quite certain that there are more semi experienced / experienced players than new players.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Far too easy.

Kamatsu wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

tl;dr
What I want to say is people shouldn't underestimate the income of players that are around for a while. Or in the opposite, ignore the loss of veteran players due to boredom.

Guild Wars 2 listened to people crying for harder content, that made claims exactly like you are - that the people who like hard content are a significant number and spend lots of money. So they make the "Heart of Thorns" expansion much, much harder than the base game, it was solo unfriendly, lots of group-or-don't-continue checkpoint's.... with the claims that by the time people got to this content they should "know how to play", be able to play their class, adapt, etc.... sound familiar right?

In the next 6 months after the launch of this 'hard' expansion they suffered a 67% loss of income. If you look at a line graph of that... it's close to vertically downwards.

Why? Because the vast majority of players who bought gems to spend in their store for costumes, skins, appearance-changes (ie the same stuff that's in ESO's crown store) were players who liked the casual easy-to-play style from the base game.... and who were completely and utterly put off by how hard, how difficult, how solo-unfriendly the new expansion was.

The official forums and Reddit were filled for weeks with thread after thread, post after post, with people complaining how hard it was, how unfriendly it was, how they were struggling to get anywhere, that to advance their character and/or story required group-friendly and/or group-only encounters, etc.

The loss of income for ANet was so dramatic and heavy they apologized and nerfed the content so it was much easier, that people could progress the story and/or character without being forced through group friendly/only encounter's, etc. Do you really think a company would nerf open-world content that much if the 'players who like hard content' actually paid equivalently to the more easy-loving player?

Of course they wouldn't. ANet was a business, and saw their income plummeting and that if they didn't do something fast they'd potentially face being shutdown by NCSoft within a few quarters for underperforming even Wildstar. ZOS is exactly the same - they are a business, and will cater to the biggest source of income - the casual / easy-content loving people.

GW2, prior to going free-to-play, had the exact same income structure as ESO - box sales with optional cosmetic cash shop. Unlike ESO it didn't have an optional sub.

And same thing would happen in ESO if they were to implement the idea's put forth by every "make the game harder" thread... it would chase away the casual/easy-content players and ZOS would see their income plummet... and unlike ANet, they'd prolly just pull the plug and close ESO rather than admit they made a major mistake listening to an extremely vocal extreme minority.
As for the whole 'people will learn' thing.. no they don't. Most players couldn't be bothered reading forums, watching guides, etc... those who do make up the minority of any MMO / online game. Most people will go with whatever they feel like, whatever looks cool, whatever they got in the order they get it and if they can't beat content with whatever the game hands them directly... they leave and go to other games.

And yes, I've run into people in the ending regions of the game who were still using light & heavy attacks along with the 1st (and only) skill they had unlocked, hadn't bothered to put points in their attributes... and were completely struggling and dying quickly because of this. For some reason thery had been struggling on because they really liked the story and setting. Yes if you're wondering I did help them out by pointing out the attribute's and skills (and they are doing much better now, and much more happy playing the game).

But these are not the minority of players. This is the majority. Most people want to come home from work, start up their favorite game and play for 30-60 minutes in their spare time before/after dinner, or when they have some moments on the weekend. They don't want to have to 'think' or be stressed, or worry about what to wear, what skills to use, etc. Gaming is a relaxant for them.. they do it to relieve themselves of work/family/life stress and forget their troubles. Not to have to figure out what the attack pattern is, or timings of skills, or which stats are best, etc.

Make the game they enjoy/like too hard and they will not 'learn', they will not 'adapt', they won't look up guides or video's, they won't go to forums, etc... they will just stop playing and go to another game that lets them relax and enjoy themselves without having to think, plan, study, etc.

And it's these players who like to make their characters look pretty, or beefy, or dress them up in whatever fantasy they have for the character. They have no problem buying crowns willy nilly if something in the store takes their fancy... as it's enjoyment for them and they have the spare cash. Take away the enjoyment, and they leave... they leave, so does their money.

And as games such as Guild Wars 2, Wildstar, etc have found out... those wanting hard content, group-focused content, etc... are a much smaller slice of the player base than the casual easy-loving crowd.

What really confuses me here with this is that when anyone mentions making the game a little more difficult, people automatically assume we mean turning it up 100 fold to pre nerf craglorn levels. That is not what any of us are talking about for post starter zone overland content areas. Why does it have to be either hello kitty island adventure OR Bloodborne ? Why cant it be a happy medium so everyone can enjoy it, so newbies can learn their classes and have a sense of accomplishment, and so vet players can use more than one attack? I mean, pre nerf, craglorn was a royal pain in my ass, I am not the type of player that wants everything to be so difficult that people toss their keyboards at the wall, people seem to be getting that impression, but I would really like to see a happy medium of difficulty out there. Kinda like adept on skyrim, but not novice and not master. As is right now, it is def at novice, or even under that. Overland content def should be at skyrim adept levels.

Just in case people think adept is hard setting on skyrim, it wasnt.

Difficulty
Player Damage Dealt

Player Damage Taken
Novice
2x

0.5x
Apprentice
1.5x

0.75x
Adept
1x

1x
Expert
0.75x

1.5x
Master
0.5x

2x
Legendary
0.25x

3x

At adept difficulty, when you started off, and when you were about halfway through, basic mobs were push overs, but there were more difficult mobs that would give you a hard time, and there were def "master" enemies that were out of the question at lower levels. But as you progressed through the game, got more powerful, got better armor pickups ( even without crafting ) there was a sense of progression, a sense of becoming more powerful.

Skyrim was the most popular and successful TES game financially TO DATE, so before anyone chimes in and says " it has to be super easy to make it successful " clearly no it does not. Adept was by no means super easy, but it was also by no means super hard. Like I said, happy medium.

Edit : Why is that table so slanted? I made them all line up O.o

MaleAmazon · November 2017

Far too easy.

and who were completely and utterly put off by how hard, how difficult, how solo-unfriendly the new expansion was.

I´ve never played that game, but one word that stuck out here was 'solo-unfriendly'. I want ESO to be harder, but a more solo-friendly experience. A lot of us like to limit our interaction with other people in an MMO to chatting, trading, and playing casually. Reason being that it is hard to find a good group to do hard content with, and many people are.. well, elitist. But that is a different thing - creating content that doesnt scale with group size necessitates grouping, but it isnt really a difficulty increase at its core.

The solution is to create a veteran mode for overland content as well, which nerfs your character but gives them better loot and XP. This would not make the game one iota harder for anyone who didnt desire it (other than not being able to be mooch-carried through content as much which I dont consider a bad thing anyway).

Meanwhile I would enjoy quests more and might actually pay attention to what was going on around me if the world didnt act like a giant game of dominoes whenever i throw shrouded daggers.

theslynx · November 2017

Just right.

Jade1986 wrote: »

What really confuses me here with this is that when anyone mentions making the game a little more difficult, people automatically assume we mean turning it up 100 fold to pre nerf craglorn levels. That is not what any of us are talking about for post starter zone overland content areas. Why does it have to be either hello kitty island adventure OR Bloodborne ...

I was there for the GW2 fiasco. In my opinion, they didn't drastically increase the difficulty; it was fractional. (Maybe a quarter more difficult for solo content? Tough to judge.) The problem is how the math works under the hood. Players in good 'meta' acceptable gear found that increase fairly small, and many wanted tougher open world content. Players in anything else found it punishing and wanted it reverted. (Ironically, that meant that nearly all but a small handful of ANet's carefully designed sets felt instantly pointless even for casuals, as it doesn't have strong roles, making a few DPS-sets clear favourites.)

More generally, that's the problem with tuning the difficulty of any RPG/MMO where stats matter. The notion of a happy medium is tough enough with just player skill/talent as a variable; add in strong statistical elements via builds and gear, and it amplifies. What's quite modest for some players is onerous for others.

If there is going to be a solution to overland difficulty that will please you or Chilly and others, I can't see how it comes from anything other than some form of individual options.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Far too easy.

theslynx wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

What really confuses me here with this is that when anyone mentions making the game a little more difficult, people automatically assume we mean turning it up 100 fold to pre nerf craglorn levels. That is not what any of us are talking about for post starter zone overland content areas. Why does it have to be either hello kitty island adventure OR Bloodborne ...

I was there for the GW2 fiasco. In my opinion, they didn't drastically increase the difficulty; it was fractional. (Maybe a quarter more difficult for solo content? Tough to judge.) The problem is how the math works under the hood. Players in good 'meta' acceptable gear found that increase fairly small, and many wanted tougher open world content. Players in anything else found it punishing and wanted it reverted. (Ironically, that meant that nearly all but a small handful of ANet's carefully designed sets felt instantly pointless even for casuals, as it doesn't have strong roles, making a few DPS-sets clear favourites.)

More generally, that's the problem with tuning the difficulty of any RPG/MMO where stats matter. The notion of a happy medium is tough enough with just player skill/talent as a variable; add in strong statistical elements via builds and gear, and it amplifies. What's quite modest for some players is onerous for others.

If there is going to be a solution to overland difficulty that will please you or Chilly and others, I can't see how it comes from anything other than some form of individual options.

Skyrim slider. Would be best. But if we get that, I would like to see some cheevos for the harder difficulties.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Far too easy.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

and who were completely and utterly put off by how hard, how difficult, how solo-unfriendly the new expansion was.

I´ve never played that game, but one word that stuck out here was 'solo-unfriendly'. I want ESO to be harder, but a more solo-friendly experience. A lot of us like to limit our interaction with other people in an MMO to chatting, trading, and playing casually. Reason being that it is hard to find a good group to do hard content with, and many people are.. well, elitist. But that is a different thing - creating content that doesnt scale with group size necessitates grouping, but it isnt really a difficulty increase at its core.

The solution is to create a veteran mode for overland content as well, which nerfs your character but gives them better loot and XP. This would not make the game one iota harder for anyone who didnt desire it (other than not being able to be mooch-carried through content as much which I dont consider a bad thing anyway).

Meanwhile I would enjoy quests more and might actually pay attention to what was going on around me if the world didnt act like a giant game of dominoes whenever i throw shrouded daggers.

I think skyrim difficulties would do it, we wouldnt need different instances, and higher difficulties could give cheevos and better loot / gold drops.

MaleAmazon · November 2017

Far too easy.

Yeah. I dont like the idea of a slider with many settings too much, I like to be given a challenge not adjust it too much myself. Diablo 3 was slightly weird with so many difficulties that you would adjust it almost like setting character attributes... just a 'hard mode' or two of some sort.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · November 2017

Far too easy.

The base game doesn't need to be harder. They need to add role base quests that teach you basics about each role and assist you in choosing your role. Make it a mandatory quest before you move on to 4 man dungeons or trials. The overland content is easy but if it was much harder like vma hard I'd prolly play less due to hand cramping honestly.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Far too easy.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

The base game doesn't need to be harder. They need to add role base quests that teach you basics about each role and assist you in choosing your role. Make it a mandatory quest before you move on to 4 man dungeons or trials. The overland content is easy but if it was much harder like vma hard I'd prolly play less due to hand cramping honestly.

Thats a good idea.

paulsimonps · November 2017

Far too easy.

With the exception of Group Bosses the overworld content is a walk in the park. And Group bosses can of course be outnumbered easily making it incredibly easy as well. I never saw the CWC group bosses mechanics the first few days cause there was like 50 people spam camping them making it super easy, like only 1 or 2 hits from everyone and they were dead. But when you are like 1-3 the bosses can be a lot of fun and can be challenging, unless you have a healer and a tank of course.

Linaleah · November 2017

Just right.

theslynx wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

What really confuses me here with this is that when anyone mentions making the game a little more difficult, people automatically assume we mean turning it up 100 fold to pre nerf craglorn levels. That is not what any of us are talking about for post starter zone overland content areas. Why does it have to be either hello kitty island adventure OR Bloodborne ...

I was there for the GW2 fiasco. In my opinion, they didn't drastically increase the difficulty; it was fractional. (Maybe a quarter more difficult for solo content? Tough to judge.) The problem is how the math works under the hood. Players in good 'meta' acceptable gear found that increase fairly small, and many wanted tougher open world content. Players in anything else found it punishing and wanted it reverted. (Ironically, that meant that nearly all but a small handful of ANet's carefully designed sets felt instantly pointless even for casuals, as it doesn't have strong roles, making a few DPS-sets clear favourites.)

More generally, that's the problem with tuning the difficulty of any RPG/MMO where stats matter. The notion of a happy medium is tough enough with just player skill/talent as a variable; add in strong statistical elements via builds and gear, and it amplifies. What's quite modest for some players is onerous for others.

If there is going to be a solution to overland difficulty that will please you or Chilly and others, I can't see how it comes from anything other than some form of individual options.

this. and actualy heart of thorns is what put me off that game for good, and why I didn't buy path of fire (that and when trying out path of fire during free trail, I found intro scenario far too frustrating)

there is an assumption that we want the game easy only for new players. the problem here is "we want the game slightly harder crowd" doesn't realize that plenty of VETERAN players like the game easier.

moreover, I said it before and i will say it again... those of you asking for harder - don't want the higher difficulty for challenge alone. you want better rewards. and that tells me that what you REALLY want is better rewards that you can lord over people who play on easier difficulties. you want higher difficulty.. that you want to be enticed into playing through. so much for "I just want to not fall asleep when playing".

what is good for the game is population. MMO's live and die on their playerbases. how do you keep your population? Blizzard figured out long time ago. give them lots. of accessible. content.

MaleAmazon · November 2017

Far too easy.

plenty of VETERAN players like the game easier.

Possible, but I´d suspect many don´t actually want an easier game per se, just an easier time farming overland gear or overland resources to sell. Then they go and do hard content in dungeons.

Which is different.

Linaleah · November 2017

Just right.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

plenty of VETERAN players like the game easier.

Possible, but I´d suspect many don´t actually want an easier game per se, just an easier time farming overland gear or overland resources to sell. Then they go and do hard content in dungeons.

Which is different.

which amounts to the same thing. people like overland difficulty where it is. not just new players. veteran players.

MaleAmazon · November 2017

Far too easy.

which amounts to the same thing. people like overland difficulty where it is. not just new players. veteran players.

No, it is NOT the same thing. Liking an easier difficulty because you want an easy game is not the same as wanting an easy difficulty because you´re not really playing the game, only mindlessly farming in order to actually play the game later.

I know, I do the latter myself, but I listen to medical lectures or something simultaneously, since that playstyle doesnt require any thinking effort on my part.

I´ll do a random normal daily, but it´s just a chore to be able to level up CP so I can get a better character for the *actual* content I want to beat.

If you look at what veteran players actually want in chat; there it´s more like 'LFG vet hard mode CP 600+', and you´ll be kicked for having the 'wrong' regeneration morph.

And again, it could be made harder for those that want it without affecting those that don´t.

Linaleah · November 2017

Just right.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

which amounts to the same thing. people like overland difficulty where it is. not just new players. veteran players.

No, it is NOT the same thing. Liking an easier difficulty because you want an easy game is not the same as wanting an easy difficulty because you´re not really playing the game, only mindlessly farming in order to actually play the game later.

I know, I do the latter myself, but I listen to medical lectures or something simultaneously, since that playstyle doesnt require any thinking effort on my part.

I´ll do a random normal daily, but it´s just a chore to be able to level up CP so I can get a better character for the *actual* content I want to beat.

If you look at what veteran players actually want in chat; there it´s more like 'LFG vet hard mode CP 600+', and you´ll be kicked for having the 'wrong' regeneration morph.

And again, it could be made harder for those that want it without affecting those that don´t.

and these particular veteran players can stick to their "meta build only, i want to get this dungeon over with in 5, 10 minutes tops" gamestyle. becasue thee same veteran players you mention? play the entire game as if they want to get it over with as quickly as possible. not just overland content. the. entire. game. which makes me wonder why they are playing at all.

these veteran players quite literally WORK to make the game as "easy" as possible for themselves, and then complain that its too easy.

so yes, it does amount to the same thing. even for these veteran players. the rest of us , who are also veterans (unless definition of veteran has change from someone whose been playing for a while) like the difficulty as is, because it keeps the flow of the game nice and not tedious.

last but not least. if you genuinely wanted the game to be more challenging becasue its more fun? you wouldn't keep asking for extra rewards to entice you into doing that.

MaleAmazon · November 2017

Far too easy.

Well the results of the poll disagree with you.

I don´t know why others play, I play in order to get rewards. By rewards I don´t just mean 'stuff', I mean getting to see new content, fun quests, getting to try out good builds in PvP, beating hard content, etc.

For me, if I overcome a tough boss in order to save someone and complete a quest, and I have to work and concentrate in order to do it, that quest is a better experience. There is no uniqueness here; were I a gambling man I´d wage people with experience in gaming turned the difficulty up in Skyrim. Despite the fact that if they turned the difficulty down they´d get the exact same missions, environment and story. Why play on expert when you can just turn the difficulty to novice and kill things faster? Hell, people wanted extra extra hard mode which they put in.

"Nothing in this life worth having comes easy", so to speak.

last but not least. if you genuinely wanted the game to be more challenging becasue its more fun? you wouldn't keep asking for extra rewards to entice you into doing that.

Getting rewards is fun. I´m not saying you don´t have a point, but you cannot separate fun from reward, that is not how human psychology works. I love my job but I dont like doing it for free.

Extra loot arent the most important part, but they are a part.

Linaleah · November 2017

Just right.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Well the results of the poll disagree with you.

I don´t know why others play, I play in order to get rewards. By rewards I don´t just mean 'stuff', I mean getting to see new content, fun quests, getting to try out good builds in PvP, beating hard content, etc.

For me, if I overcome a tough boss in order to save someone and complete a quest, and I have to work and concentrate in order to do it, that quest is a better experience. There is no uniqueness here; were I a gambling man I´d wage people with experience in gaming turned the difficulty up in Skyrim. Despite the fact that if they turned the difficulty down they´d get the exact same missions, environment and story. Why play on expert when you can just turn the difficulty to novice and kill things faster? Hell, people wanted extra extra hard mode which they put in.

"Nothing in this life worth having comes easy", so to speak.

last but not least. if you genuinely wanted the game to be more challenging becasue its more fun? you wouldn't keep asking for extra rewards to entice you into doing that.

Getting rewards is fun. I´m not saying you don´t have a point, but you cannot separate fun from reward, that is not how human psychology works. I love my job but I dont like doing it for free.

Extra loot arent the most important part, but they are a part.

the fact that you see it as a job is the problem. I like my hobbies and i absolutely do them for free. heck, i PAY to be able to engage in my hobbies. that is what separates FUN from JOB. and i'm not saying that one shouldn't enjoy their job, but job is a job, and hobby is a hobby. rewards of a hobby comes from doing what you like.

if challenge and beating said challenge is fun.. than why do you need to be enticed into it with extra goodies? maybe I'm just from the generation that played video games on specific difficulties not because extra loot or whatever, but rather because you had a set of difficulty to chose from - SOLELY to give different people the experience they enjoy. I mean... these people still exist. ironman challenge is still a thing in some MMO's. but you all want extra rewards. maybe if you wanted challenge for the sake of challenge, I would take you all a lot more seriously.

P.S. by definition any results of a forum poll will be skewed. because majority of players do NOT post on the forums. said majority does in fact include people who have been playing for a while, often from launch. not to mention... how many of those posters see a game as a job and want higher difficulty for higher rewards not because they are not having fun with easy?

Jade1986 · November 2017

Far too easy.

Linaleah wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Well the results of the poll disagree with you.

I don´t know why others play, I play in order to get rewards. By rewards I don´t just mean 'stuff', I mean getting to see new content, fun quests, getting to try out good builds in PvP, beating hard content, etc.

For me, if I overcome a tough boss in order to save someone and complete a quest, and I have to work and concentrate in order to do it, that quest is a better experience. There is no uniqueness here; were I a gambling man I´d wage people with experience in gaming turned the difficulty up in Skyrim. Despite the fact that if they turned the difficulty down they´d get the exact same missions, environment and story. Why play on expert when you can just turn the difficulty to novice and kill things faster? Hell, people wanted extra extra hard mode which they put in.

"Nothing in this life worth having comes easy", so to speak.

last but not least. if you genuinely wanted the game to be more challenging becasue its more fun? you wouldn't keep asking for extra rewards to entice you into doing that.

Getting rewards is fun. I´m not saying you don´t have a point, but you cannot separate fun from reward, that is not how human psychology works. I love my job but I dont like doing it for free.

Extra loot arent the most important part, but they are a part.

the fact that you see it as a job is the problem. I like my hobbies and i absolutely do them for free. heck, i PAY to be able to engage in my hobbies. that is what separates FUN from JOB. and i'm not saying that one shouldn't enjoy their job, but job is a job, and hobby is a hobby. rewards of a hobby comes from doing what you like.

if challenge and beating said challenge is fun.. than why do you need to be enticed into it with extra goodies? maybe I'm just from the generation that played video games on specific difficulties not because extra loot or whatever, but rather because you had a set of difficulty to chose from - SOLELY to give different people the experience they enjoy. I mean... these people still exist. ironman challenge is still a thing in some MMO's. but you all want extra rewards. maybe if you wanted challenge for the sake of challenge, I would take you all a lot more seriously.

P.S. by definition any results of a forum poll will be skewed. because majority of players do NOT post on the forums. said majority does in fact include people who have been playing for a while, often from launch. not to mention... how many of those posters see a game as a job and want higher difficulty for higher rewards not because they are not having fun with easy?

Even if a small portion of players post in the forums, it is still representative of the larger portion of players. We are people too, with differing opinions on things, and the majority of that representation clearly think it is too easy. Albeit there is a large portion who think it is ok, the majority is there.

MaleAmazon · November 2017

Far too easy.

the fact that you see it as a job is the problem.

No, it *is* my job. I don´t treat patients for free, I wouldn´t be able to pay my bills. Even if I take an extra shift primarily to help others out, I expect to be paid.

In single player games I´ll play on a harder difficulty for the challenge - because like I said overcoming a challenge is its own reward (but it is still a reward). MMO is a bit different. Sometimes I´ll play veteran mode just to see if I can beat it. But since the game is designed so that you get better rewards for harder content, not giving it to you if you get harder content would just be weird.

It is also why the 'just gimp yourself' argument isn´t working. Why not stand on your head? Why not refuse to use hotkeys? Because human beings work psychologically in certain ways. If something requires effort, it produces a greater sense of reward.

T.rex doesnt want to be fed. He wants to hunt.

Tandor · November 2017

Just right.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

plenty of VETERAN players like the game easier.

Possible, but I´d suspect many don´t actually want an easier game per se, just an easier time farming overland gear or overland resources to sell. Then they go and do hard content in dungeons.

Which is different.

We shouldn't under-estimate the number of veteran players who have no interest in group dungeons and trials etc, i.e. the "hard content". They don't therefore need to know about e.g. roles and advanced combat mechanics, because they're mostly solo/cooperative players. Nonetheless, I'm not against having quests that teach them such things provided they're not locked into the main story so that progression is dependent on them. Instead, make them part of the Undaunted progression, for example, that would fit in well for those interested in that level of challenge.

But you're right to separate out the different parts of the game, and traditionally in MMOs the overland story-based leveling content is designed to be straightforward and easy to complete, with tougher challenges in dungeons and then another step up in difficulty level for raids. ESO does a good job in my view in providing content for all playstyles in that respect, including in DLCs, and the fact that the overland content is uniformly structured difficulty-wise is simply a function of One Tamriel - which has been a massive success.

MaleAmazon · November 2017

Far too easy.

Yeah, I really liked One Tamriel, it is way better than the levelled zones. Thing is, unless you actively make your character worse, you will kill anything just by the automatic level you have after playing the game. I could do 3x the damage I do, and I still melt through almost everything.

I´d be happy with a band-aid "-50% hp, -50% damage, double loot" solution. So I must adapt, think a little, but in return quests become more of a challenge and also I get token extra loot.

Survival mode in Fallout 4 transformed that game for me. It was the exact same story, exact same items... and the increased difficulty and need to pay attention to food, water, sleep... it was so much more rewarding and fun. Once I started, I could never ever go back to regular difficulty. Even with its flaws. There was simply no going back to 'hard' difficulty, and I think many players who think they want easy content would find that they dont - it is just that when content becomes uninteresting, partly because it *is* easy, you will rather have it for a shorter time, which it is if it is made easier. It´s a vicious circle.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Far too easy.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Yeah, I really liked One Tamriel, it is way better than the levelled zones. Thing is, unless you actively make your character worse, you will kill anything just by the automatic level you have after playing the game. I could do 3x the damage I do, and I still melt through almost everything.

I´d be happy with a band-aid "-50% hp, -50% damage, double loot" solution. So I must adapt, think a little, but in return quests become more of a challenge and also I get token extra loot.

Survival mode in Fallout 4 transformed that game for me. It was the exact same story, exact same items... and the increased difficulty and need to pay attention to food, water, sleep... it was so much more rewarding and fun. Even with its flaws. There was simply no going back to 'hard' difficulty, and I think many players who think they want easy content would find that they dont - it is just that when content becomes uninteresting, partly because it is easy, you rather have it for a shorter time, which it is if it is made easier. It´s a vicious circle.

Loved survival mode, but gae up eventually because i couldnt download the unofficial patch. Forcing you to get the dlc to get that patch was a nono and deal breaker for me.

Linaleah · November 2017

Just right.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

the fact that you see it as a job is the problem.

No, it *is* my job. I don´t treat patients for free, I wouldn´t be able to pay my bills. Even if I take an extra shift primarily to help others out, I expect to be paid.

In single player games I´ll play on a harder difficulty for the challenge - because like I said overcoming a challenge is its own reward (but it is still a reward). MMO is a bit different. Sometimes I´ll play veteran mode just to see if I can beat it. But since the game is designed so that you get better rewards for harder content, not giving it to you if you get harder content would just be weird.

It is also why the 'just gimp yourself' argument isn´t working. Why not stand on your head? Why not refuse to use hotkeys? Because human beings work psychologically in certain ways. If something requires effort, it produces a greater sense of reward.

T.rex doesnt want to be fed. He wants to hunt.

no, the fact that you treat GAMING as a job is a problem (I mean.. yes there are professional gamers, but its their job, not a hobby and the dynamic is completely different there). getting paid for doing a job is good, its necessary. getting paid for a hobby? if you want to get paid, its no longer a hobby its a JOB. so what you want is to turn this game? into a job. no thanks.

and gimp yourself argument seems to be working for all the people who participate in ironman challenge. because they do in fact like the challenge, not just to get more shinies.

reward from extra effort in your hobby should not be in getting paid for it. it should be in accomplishing something you couldn't before.

you know why MMO's are different? because this is where you can lord your superiority over other people. and no, i don't think people like that should get what they want.

P.S. the fact that even on these forums, with biased poll options and all - we still have 40% of people saying its just right? should tell you all something as well.

you want difficulty slider? fine. but you shouldn't get anything extra for it, only the added challenge.

Girl_Number8 · November 2017

Just right.

MasterSpatula wrote: »

The overland game is tuned to new players. Insisting the overland be tuned so it's a challenge to skilled and geared players is rank selfishness.

On a similar token, my single biggest complaint about this game is how everything takes way longer than it has any business taking. My, oh, sixth or seventh biggest complaint is that you can't go two steps without another fight. Imagine how absurdly long doing CWC dailies would take if every Factotum and Gloam Wolf was an epic fight.

Trash is supposed to be trash.

So, quit trying to ruin things for newbies, and quit trying to make absurdly time-consuming activities take even longer than they already do. Just stop it. Seriously. Go do the content that's actually aimed at you and stop trying to turn the content that's not aimed at you into content for you. Be better than that.

This^

I_killed_Vivec · November 2017

Far too easy.

I'm in two minds about this...

I do miss the sense of progression that the old game had, particularly with VR when you went to a new zone under-powered, levelled up and left it able to contend, but under-powered for the next zone. There was a constant sense of progression, but ZoS decided that "vertical" progression was not what people wanted and gave us the "horizontal" progression of CP instead - which of course turned out to be more vertical than VR.

I understand why they went for OT, but they should have done something better with Craglorn. Make it more solo-friendly by removing those aspects of the quests that were a physical block to soloing, but don't nerf the mobs. Make it so that it is still an accomplishment to kill the mobs, and give a sense of anxiety when leaving the roads to explore.

But there is none of that, even in Craglorn. Nobody worries about bumping into a pack of welva (though I have seen people with 900 CP+ struggle). I wander around without a care in the world, don't bother with food and still melt everything I see in seconds.

Time was when you made sure your ulti was fully charged before taking on the wasps, but not any more.

They should have kept Craglorn as somewhere where you go to test yourself, without battle scaling, when you are good enough (i.e. after lvl 50).

But the question was about starter levels, and I'd say they are probably right... as long as the game doesn't cater for people who want to be able to do everything right from the start.

There has to be some progression, otherwise it becomes a chore of repeating the same content over and over again, just trying to be a little faster.

MaleAmazon · November 2017

Far too easy.

but you shouldn't get anything extra for it, only the added challenge.

Lol at telling other people how the game "should" work

P.S. the fact that even on these forums, with biased poll options and all - we still have 40% of people saying its just right? should tell you all something as well.

You dont know if the poll results are biased, you dont know in which direction if they are.

you know why MMO's are different? because this is where you can lord your superiority over other people. and no, i don't think people like that should get what they want.

So you basically dont want people who pay to play MMOs to get the kind of MMO they want.

no, the fact that you treat GAMING as a job is a problem. getting paid for doing a job is good, its necessary. getting paid for a hobby? if you want to get paid, its no longer a hobby its a JOB. so what you want is to turn this game? into a job. no thanks.

There is a point to thinking that gaming for me is becoming more of a.. I´d say chore rather than a job. I try to be mindful of that and move away from it. But the point is that the *choice* of a higher difficulty is something people want, even when it just provides extra challenge. I´d choose it even without extra in-game rewards, but it makes more sense to add in-game rewards of some sorts, since the entire game works like that - for a reason. Because that. Is. How. People. Work. Psychologically.

Hell, you talk about Iron Man.. I dont know exactly which one you´re talking about, but the WoW one, and also Diablo for example, have external rewards in the form of victor lists and in-game achievements! It isn´t just your own sense of achievement! I have played several games where the creators patched in extra hard modes (Skyrim, Fallout, Diablo...). Adding "extra easy mode"? It happens, but not that frequently...

Anyway this is getting pointless. I have been in pointless internet arguments before, and I have learned to not get tangled up in those. So I am not having *this* argument anymore.

idk · November 2017

Just right.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

idk wrote: »

It is not intended to be challenging to most. Have never seen overland in any game be a challenge to a mildly skilled player.

As I said above, I don't think it's intentional. They just don't know how to fix this. It would be awesome if everybody could play at their appropriate difficulty level in the open world of an MMO and I'm sure ZOS agrees with this.

It's likely completely intentional.

As I indicated, the current status quo for MMORPGs is his Zos chose to setup ESO overland difficulty. You can think Zos agrees with you but all indications are they don't. You can think Zos doesn't know how to change it (not fix it cause it ain't broke) when it's merely their choice to not implement a change

In realy isn't that hard for Zos to add a system where we can choose from a few settings to nerf our character, hence increasing the difficulty level. They seem to think the effort is not worth it. They're correct.

No they aren't correct.

What is at least 75% of this game's content including the added DLC content?

It's exploration/questing and overland content.

So if they want high level characters to remain interested in their game and the expansions they expect them to buy it's very important that they make this content challenging enough to where it's interesting to play for them. Frankly I find this idea that most of the game should be balanced around new players just starting out bordering on the absurd.

ZoS can keep the monsters at their current difficulty levels in the starter zones if they are afraid of chasing off newer players. But the other zones and enemies further along in the game should have their health and stats boosted to where they provide a temporary danger to high level characters. Or at least an option to do so needs to be there. Because as another poster pointed out - this game is quickly turning into a hello kitty tea party. Outside of the world bosses, the rest of the landscape enemies really may as well not even be there as they melt if you look at them funny. And I don't even play a DPS character. So I can just imagine those who do. I bet they don't even live a second (and I'm not exaggerating).

The purpose of adding enemies and monsters to a map is to make it seem more alive and dangerous. If they fail at doing that then they are pointless to have.

[/snip]

Maybe you should check out the trials, especially vet and HM. Either way, this design works for the business model. As long as it does it will not change since that is what determines what is correct and what is not.

This is not about vet trials or even vet dungeons.

I am fully aware this is not about vet trials. That is extremely clear. However, you conveniently edited out the comments that put what you quoted into context.

I suggest anyone looking at the post I just quoted go back one page and read my full comment he quoted.

Jade1986 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

nnargun wrote: »

idk wrote: »

It is not intended to be challenging to most. Have never seen overland in any game be a challenge to a mildly skilled player.

As I said above, I don't think it's intentional. They just don't know how to fix this. It would be awesome if everybody could play at their appropriate difficulty level in the open world of an MMO and I'm sure ZOS agrees with this.

It's likely completely intentional.

As I indicated, the current status quo for MMORPGs is his Zos chose to setup ESO overland difficulty. You can think Zos agrees with you but all indications are they don't. You can think Zos doesn't know how to change it (not fix it cause it ain't broke) when it's merely their choice to not implement a change

In realy isn't that hard for Zos to add a system where we can choose from a few settings to nerf our character, hence increasing the difficulty level. They seem to think the effort is not worth it. They're correct.

No they aren't correct.

What is at least 75% of this game's content including the added DLC content?

It's exploration/questing and overland content.

So if they want high level characters to remain interested in their game and the expansions they expect them to buy it's very important that they make this content challenging enough to where it's interesting to play for them. Frankly I find this idea that most of the game should be balanced around new players just starting out bordering on the absurd.

ZoS can keep the monsters at their current difficulty levels in the starter zones if they are afraid of chasing off newer players. But the other zones and enemies further along in the game should have their health and stats boosted to where they provide a temporary danger to high level characters. Or at least an option to do so needs to be there. Because as another poster pointed out - this game is quickly turning into a hello kitty tea party. Outside of the world bosses, the rest of the landscape enemies really may as well not even be there as they melt if you look at them funny. And I don't even play a DPS character. So I can just imagine those who do. I bet they don't even live a second (and I'm not exaggerating).

The purpose of adding enemies and monsters to a map is to make it seem more alive and dangerous. If they fail at doing that then they are pointless to have.

I understand that Zos' choice on this matter, and really the choice of major MMORPGs is not something you agree with. However, this design is tried and true in todays market. It is proven to be great for revenue and this is a business first and foremost.

As for the balancing you mention, your example is not really accurate. Most of the game is balanced around new and casual players. Those groups make up a huge portion of the player base. You mentioned starter zones when Zos does not have starter zones. All the alliance zones are intended for leveling (and more since we no longer have vet ranks) and it might just be bad business for Zos to cordon off DLCs for more experienced players since limiting sales would put a damper on revenue.

The challenge MMOS put into these games is with instanced content like raids and in the case of ESO, these trials. Well, for some we an toss in the dungeons as well. It is pretty much a standard design to have different content and different difficulty level.

Maybe you should check out the trials, especially vet and HM. Either way, this design works for the business model. As long as it does it will not change since that is what determines what is correct and what is not.

God I am sotired of hearing this argument. What about what is good for the game, what is good for the title, what is good for gameplay, what is good for progression? I understand that profits are important, but good god, its called a video game, not a fantasy business investment.

While I understand it is inconvenient, but it is a business first, not for you, but for Zos. It is a video game to you, but not to Zenimax. The Business side of their operations make the decisions on this, every time.

Any player that has interest in increased difficulty is doing the instanced content. They are doing the vet trials their HMs, that is where progression is.

That is why Zos, and other MMORPGs spend the time to build raids.

Case in point, SWTOR lost their strongest players when they stopped building full raids and went to single boss instanced fights. What is good for profits, directly related to the actual game, would seem to be good for the game itself.

Regardless, if Zos thinks your idea on this is worth the effort then they will add it. If not, I guess we will see more of the same. It can be done since it would merely be something to nerf the player and Zos knows how to though it is not a small project so it comes down to value added to the game for the effort.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Far too easy.

Linaleah wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

the fact that you see it as a job is the problem.

No, it *is* my job. I don´t treat patients for free, I wouldn´t be able to pay my bills. Even if I take an extra shift primarily to help others out, I expect to be paid.

In single player games I´ll play on a harder difficulty for the challenge - because like I said overcoming a challenge is its own reward (but it is still a reward). MMO is a bit different. Sometimes I´ll play veteran mode just to see if I can beat it. But since the game is designed so that you get better rewards for harder content, not giving it to you if you get harder content would just be weird.

It is also why the 'just gimp yourself' argument isn´t working. Why not stand on your head? Why not refuse to use hotkeys? Because human beings work psychologically in certain ways. If something requires effort, it produces a greater sense of reward.

T.rex doesnt want to be fed. He wants to hunt.

no, the fact that you treat GAMING as a job is a problem (I mean.. yes there are professional gamers, but its their job, not a hobby and the dynamic is completely different there). getting paid for doing a job is good, its necessary. getting paid for a hobby? if you want to get paid, its no longer a hobby its a JOB. so what you want is to turn this game? into a job. no thanks.

and gimp yourself argument seems to be working for all the people who participate in ironman challenge. because they do in fact like the challenge, not just to get more shinies.

reward from extra effort in your hobby should not be in getting paid for it. it should be in accomplishing something you couldn't before.

you know why MMO's are different? because this is where you can lord your superiority over other people. and no, i don't think people like that should get what they want.

P.S. the fact that even on these forums, with biased poll options and all - we still have 40% of people saying its just right? should tell you all something as well.

you want difficulty slider? fine. but you shouldn't get anything extra for it, only the added challenge.

There it is right there. The first person saying they should nerf rewards for something that isnt even there yet. Oh lord. If you want to play on super easy mode, you should get the appropriate rewards. If people would choose to play on the harder difficulty, then they should indeed get more rewards. You know, like normal and vet dungeons?