Every DD Should Know their DPS with the Skeleton

Drummerx04 · November 2017

Huyen wrote: »

What the OP is basicly saying is: everyone should roll a sorcerer for dps, a dk for tanking and a templar for healing.

For [snip] sake, sorcerer had 1 patch (Homestead) where it was essentially the absolute best DPS. News flash, it's been about 6 months since Morrowind dropped and the sorc was definitively removed from the dps throne.

Stamina builds are breezing up to 50k and magsorcs feel happy if they can pull 35k. Yes, there are double pet heavy attack builds that can hit 40k but that's still a LONG way away from what stamina is pulling this patch.

What OP is actually saying: grow up and learn to play your character.

[Edited for profanity]

Ilithyania · November 2017

Kind of you to invite and tip the DDs. To be fair. the game does not warn about DLC vet dungeons being harder then reg vet dungeons.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · November 2017

Jeremy wrote: »

Furcula wrote: »

Did the 32k health person also happen to be using vampire skills? If so, I know who you are talking about and OH GOD.

Why? Didn't you know vampire skills are OP and need nerfs?

Being a Vampire also let's a player glide through VMA and win veteran trials much easier. They are so good in fact everyone is forced to be one or they basically suck.

And taking more fire damage in a place like Veteran Falkreath is so trivial and insignificant it's not even worth noting to be honest. ^^

They said using vampire skills. Which would bring concern to me as well. Your correct that being a vampire assists in survivability and regen and so on but the skills that fall under that skill tree aren't very good for dps. But to each there own.

And to the op there's a good chance the 32k health person has no clue that max stam or magika affects dps significantly. The game does a poor job at explaining this.

I do like Op's approach to this tho and applaud them for being helpful in a none toxic manner.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · November 2017

Gargath wrote: »

Any time I see the elitists asking about my DPS on a skeleton I close conversation.

It's your choice to conceal that but it's hard to get into good groups without proof. If that's not your interest then it doesn't matter.

Unlikely_Ghostbuster · November 2017

While healing veteran Direfrost Keep the other day (not a pledge -- we weren't even doing HM), I was seriously questioning whether or not the last boss was broken because a single DPS was messing up so badly.

Coupled with the fact that the person in question could never manage to break-free in less than 8 seconds, the amount of DPS the DD produced was nowhere near high enough to compensate for the health the boss was recovering. So I was constantly swapping back and forth between healing and doing damage just to offset the negative contribution. This DPS was cp400. Our first attempt took about 15 minutes until we voluntarily wiped due to sheer exhaustion.

We had another DPS that was cp191 who did a great job. After we replaced the cp400, we beat the boss in one round. Was that cp191 doing 30k damage per second? Not even close. But that cp191 wasn't incompetent!

Had a similar experience tanking Bloodroot Forge for the pledge earlier today. Both of the DD's we started the dungeon with eventually dropped because they simply refused to consider the mechanics of the boss fights. The second of which was so terrible that his only responsibility in the final boss fight was to stay alive (healer had to take over the stun fountain). That DD wasn't just terrible, but inconsiderate -- dropped group in the middle of the fight. Ironically, the fight started going better after the inconsiderate DPS dropped (until the 3rd amalgam spawned).

Yes, I agree, a DD should know what their DPS is. At the very least, it's a benchmark for improvement. However, in my opinion, what causes the biggest drop in damage is a single DPS (or both) who simply cannot stay alive long enough to do any damage. There are some fights where everyone has a job, and if anyone makes a mistake, the group wipes.

The amount of DPS a player can produce is irrelevant if that player can't stay alive long enough to do it.

So this is my wish-list for every damage-dealer, in order of priority from highest to lowest:
1. Stay alive. Don't stand in the stupid.
2. Learn the mechanics. Respect the mechanics.
3. Rez the dead, ASAP.
4. Do at least 8k DPS, single-target.

Do these four things and we can manage. I can tank/heal for days. The fight might drag on like we're chopping down a tree with a feather, but we'll win (eventually) as long as the DD can meet these minimum expectations. You don't need a sharpened or precise weapon. You don't even necessarily need an execution/burn skill (with a few exceptions). I don't even mind too much if you're stealing shards from the tank. I can work around those issues. Just do these four little things and we're good. We'll win. Eventually.

I'm not saying DPS isn't a concern, lately. It certainly is. Lots of people are running dungeon content for the first time because of the addition of transmutation crystals, which means the PUG talent pool is fairly diluted. All I'm saying is the amount of DPS a player can produce in a veteran dungeon is not the #1 concern. On my list, it's #4.

Thalmor-Nordmaster · November 2017

Good stuff so far.

What is a good rotation for a twilight pet build sorc?

What is a good rotation for a DK Tank? both stam and Magic

What is a good rotation for a MagDK

What is a good rotation for a Stamblade?

What is a good rotation for a Magblade?

What is a good rotation for a Stamplar?

What is a good rotation for a Magplar?

What is a good rotation for a templar healer?

What is a good rotation for a Mag warden DPS or healer

What is a good rotation for a stam warden dps or healer?

This information is scattered about the forums not many come to these forums. It would be above top awesome if all of this was condensed into one current thread.

These don't have to be the best rotations but a good solid rotation that would be easy for those new to dungeons to learn.

zaria · November 2017

Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »

Good stuff so far.

What is a good rotation for a twilight pet build sorc?

What is a good rotation for a DK Tank? both stam and Magic

What is a good rotation for a MagDK

What is a good rotation for a Stamblade?

What is a good rotation for a Magblade?

What is a good rotation for a Stamplar?

What is a good rotation for a Magplar?

What is a good rotation for a templar healer?

What is a good rotation for a Mag warden DPS or healer

What is a good rotation for a stam warden dps or healer?

This information is scattered about the forums not many come to these forums. It would be above top awesome if all of this was condensed into one current thread.

These don't have to be the best rotations but a good solid rotation that would be easy for those new to dungeons to learn.

Good question:
note that healers don't really have an rotation, that is outside of keeping elemental drain and combat prayer up, also wall of lightning.
Else its smart to keep mutagen / rapid regen up to migrate damage, either if group take damage or you have SPC.
Heal with healing springs, have BoL either dual slotted or on destro staff for emergency heals, outside of this do damage.
If group take low damage you can do more damage.
Trials is different in that your focus shifts to buffing rather than doing damage.

ArchMikem · November 2017

My Warden does 6k, can I join your Trials Guild?!

Morgul667 · November 2017

I always believed the game would benefit from dungeons tutorials that each people their role. DPS test could be one of them with information on how to improve and so on.

SydneyGrey · November 2017

Very interesting thread.
When people are using the target skeleton, are they using potions? My current favorite toon is doing around 12k on a target skeleton without potions. Should be higher with a good potion. Just wondering if all these people who are getting 35k and whatever are chugging potions when they do it. If not, then I suck and need to change something. LOL. Heck, I'm sure I need to change something anyway, regardless.

Narvuntien · November 2017

MagDks rotation is.

Eruption, Wall of flame, Engulfing flames, Burning embers, (Standard), Whip, whip, Wall of flame, engulfing flames, burning embers, Heavy attack. Eruption, Wall of flame, Engulfing Flames, Burning embers, whip, whip. Repeat.

Light attack between each skill, Ulti when its up. Ele drain every 3rd rotation, Molten Armaments every 4th.

I do this rotation very well now.... My dps is still only 20-22K. (Completely self buffed)

Yeah I do need that Heavy attack in my rotation. I really really stuggle with sustain on even the 3 mill dummy.

My Stam Dps is set up for PVP but when i slot PVE skills and try a rotation on a dummy... 15K dps... I don't have the practice, and a stam rotation is way harder, so I messed it up a lot but that is disappointingly low.

WatchYourSixx · November 2017

The widely accepted standard for a self buffed skeleton dps test is with your choice of ultimates, pots, and skills/rotation to get a repeatable dps number. Usually a test starts with an ultimate so you get the most out of your ult, rather than having a changing ultimate amount each time you try again.

Most people use the best pots as well as they contribute to dps and are relatively cheap or easy to make.

The two biggest factors that go into dps though, I'd say are rotation and CP. If I take away all my CP, I go from 35k to 22k without changing anything else. And same with my rotation, I started out at doing about 12k back when v14 was new. I thought I was doing great, till I saw someone pull 25k next to me. Back before CP was a thing that was very good, so I knew I had a lot of work to do. Eventually got up to about 21k before CP dropped, and eventually climbed my way to 32k, then 37k then 35k then 33k now. ZoS has not been kind to my mag DK. My dps is going down since homestead, though I've joined the lightning blockade parade and free whips for life to get 40k solo on a 25mil dummy.

Things change, but rotations are easy to learn once you understand the class.

Jeremy · November 2017

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Furcula wrote: »

Did the 32k health person also happen to be using vampire skills? If so, I know who you are talking about and OH GOD.

Why? Didn't you know vampire skills are OP and need nerfs?

Being a Vampire also let's a player glide through VMA and win veteran trials much easier. They are so good in fact everyone is forced to be one or they basically suck.

And taking more fire damage in a place like Veteran Falkreath is so trivial and insignificant it's not even worth noting to be honest. ^^

They said using vampire skills. Which would bring concern to me as well. Your correct that being a vampire assists in survivability and regen and so on but the skills that fall under that skill tree aren't very good for dps. But to each there own.

And to the op there's a good chance the 32k health person has no clue that max stam or magika affects dps significantly. The game does a poor job at explaining this.

I do like Op's approach to this tho and applaud them for being helpful in a none toxic manner.

I was being sarcastic in those comments and making light of threads that exaggerate being a vampire on this game. They weren't meant to be taken seriously. So I hope you don't actually believe I think a player could DPS Veteran Falkreath with essence drain.

As far as the OP is concerned... as another poster pointed out doing good damage on a dummy skeleton that doesn't move or fight back is not good practice for Veteran Falkreath - which really is quite deadly. I have been in numerous groups with players who can pull off great numbers yet get the floor wiped with them in that dungeon. So while I'd agree with you his OP wasn't toxic - I would question how really helpful it was.

SydneyGrey · November 2017

Thanks WatchYourSixx, you answered my question quite nicely.

JamieAubrey · November 2017

How can you do 4k DPS, I mean how bad do you need to be ? I get 12k just from using Cliffracers on my Warden in PvE zones

I dont have the best DPS, around 13-15k

MissBizz · November 2017

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Very interesting thread.
When people are using the target skeleton, are they using potions? My current favorite toon is doing around 12k on a target skeleton without potions. Should be higher with a good potion. Just wondering if all these people who are getting 35k and whatever are chugging potions when they do it. If not, then I suck and need to change something. LOL. Heck, I'm sure I need to change something anyway, regardless.

@SydneyGrey I'm nowhere near top notch.. but in my experience...

On a dummy, applying my own ele drain (it takes up the slot where I'd normally have a shield) I pull 30k on a dummy with good crafted potions. I pull about 25k using regular dropped Magicka potions.

As for the OP. I agree. Its not even so much the exact number that matters, it just having a general idea of where you stand on that regard. Of course as others have mentioned, good awareness and the ability to stay alive are critical, but once you're good there, it's good to practice your rotation and have an idea.

[Edit] not sure it matters, but I'm a no-pet mag sorc with a pretty simple rotation.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · November 2017

Jeremy wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Furcula wrote: »

Did the 32k health person also happen to be using vampire skills? If so, I know who you are talking about and OH GOD.

Why? Didn't you know vampire skills are OP and need nerfs?

Being a Vampire also let's a player glide through VMA and win veteran trials much easier. They are so good in fact everyone is forced to be one or they basically suck.

And taking more fire damage in a place like Veteran Falkreath is so trivial and insignificant it's not even worth noting to be honest. ^^

They said using vampire skills. Which would bring concern to me as well. Your correct that being a vampire assists in survivability and regen and so on but the skills that fall under that skill tree aren't very good for dps. But to each there own.

And to the op there's a good chance the 32k health person has no clue that max stam or magika affects dps significantly. The game does a poor job at explaining this.

I do like Op's approach to this tho and applaud them for being helpful in a none toxic manner.

I was being sarcastic in those comments and making light of threads that exaggerate being a vampire on this game. They weren't meant to be taken seriously. So I hope you don't actually believe I think a player could DPS Veteran Falkreath with essence drain.

As far as the OP is concerned... as another poster pointed out doing good damage on a dummy skeleton that doesn't move or fight back is not good practice for Veteran Falkreath - which really is quite deadly. I have been in numerous groups with players who can pull off great numbers yet get the floor wiped with them in that dungeon. So while I'd agree with you his OP wasn't toxic - I would question how really helpful it was.

I'm not good with sarcasm srry.

I know skele parses aren't the end all be all, but if your getting sub 15k grp dps on a tgt skele it's going to be like 6k in boss. It may not be all that helpful your right. I don't see many very casual players camping the forums looking for advice.

bhagwad · November 2017

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Furcula wrote: »

Did the 32k health person also happen to be using vampire skills? If so, I know who you are talking about and OH GOD.

Why? Didn't you know vampire skills are OP and need nerfs?

Being a Vampire also let's a player glide through VMA and win veteran trials much easier. They are so good in fact everyone is forced to be one or they basically suck.

And taking more fire damage in a place like Veteran Falkreath is so trivial and insignificant it's not even worth noting to be honest. ^^

They said using vampire skills. Which would bring concern to me as well. Your correct that being a vampire assists in survivability and regen and so on but the skills that fall under that skill tree aren't very good for dps. But to each there own.

And to the op there's a good chance the 32k health person has no clue that max stam or magika affects dps significantly. The game does a poor job at explaining this.

I do like Op's approach to this tho and applaud them for being helpful in a none toxic manner.

I was being sarcastic in those comments and making light of threads that exaggerate being a vampire on this game. They weren't meant to be taken seriously. So I hope you don't actually believe I think a player could DPS Veteran Falkreath with essence drain.

As far as the OP is concerned... as another poster pointed out doing good damage on a dummy skeleton that doesn't move or fight back is not good practice for Veteran Falkreath - which really is quite deadly. I have been in numerous groups with players who can pull off great numbers yet get the floor wiped with them in that dungeon. So while I'd agree with you his OP wasn't toxic - I would question how really helpful it was.

I'm not good with sarcasm srry.

I know skele parses aren't the end all be all, but if your getting sub 15k grp dps on a tgt skele it's going to be like 6k in boss. It may not be all that helpful your right. I don't see many very casual players camping the forums looking for advice.

I would say that skeleton DPS is base performance. High numbers may not mean much, but low numbers mean everything. Pulling 6k on a skeleton means it 100% rules out vet Falkreath don't you think?

IMHO, skelly DPS is necessary, but not always sufficient.

Uriel_Nocturne · November 2017

Or; there are those of us who PvE only, and never Min/Max their characters, and so knowing your DPS down to the infinitesimal fractions is in no way important...

bhagwad · November 2017

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Or; there are those of us who PvE only, and never Min/Max their characters, and so knowing your DPS down to the infinitesimal fractions is in no way important...

I'm pretty sure fractions are unimportant regardless

. But you should know if you can pull between 5-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25,or 25-30k right?

If you don't know that, how can you tell whether to agree or not agree to do a particular piece of content?

kylewwefan · November 2017

Happens all the time OP. All the time.

I have a hard time faulting the players though. They just want to play the game.

Hit level 50 so they should be able to run vet content right. But this game doesn’t work like that. Level 20 something toons in blue or green pick up gear smashing through normal content, their sets are whatever gear they found that day.

Or PvP players that want to run some dungeons straight off the Cyrodil battlefield wrecking players now have to deal with million point dungeon mobs and bosses.

It’s pretty rough with a 3 hit combo rotation.

Stand around beating on a skeleton that doesn’t hit back for ten minutes....well it’s kind of hard to convince some players that this is what they need to be doing.

Get this eso plus so you can see all this other cool dungeons and content who struggle or have no hopes of completing

I still get a fair amount of enjoyment running through normal content. I’d rather smash fungal 1 all day then VWGT group finder pug.

Jpk0012 · November 2017

4k-8k dps is what I bet a majority of people put out. Not, because they don't have the gear, but because they are clueless. My newphew who is 13 said he puts out 10k dps with his light attacks(that's all he even uses). I told him that means he would need to hit with a light attack for 10k. he still didn't get it. He just wants to believe he is somehow putting out 10k with his light attack spams - frighteningly he is mid CP level. My son plays the same way.

I really think most people are very low dps. Most players are casual that couldn't care less about mechanics. They certainly aren't going to research this.

theamazingx · November 2017

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Very interesting thread.
When people are using the target skeleton, are they using potions? My current favorite toon is doing around 12k on a target skeleton without potions. Should be higher with a good potion. Just wondering if all these people who are getting 35k and whatever are chugging potions when they do it. If not, then I suck and need to change something. LOL. Heck, I'm sure I need to change something anyway, regardless.

If you’re doing 12 without potions, potions will only bring you to about 14, if that.

WrathOfInnos · November 2017

theamazingx wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Very interesting thread.
When people are using the target skeleton, are they using potions? My current favorite toon is doing around 12k on a target skeleton without potions. Should be higher with a good potion. Just wondering if all these people who are getting 35k and whatever are chugging potions when they do it. If not, then I suck and need to change something. LOL. Heck, I'm sure I need to change something anyway, regardless.

If you’re doing 12 without potions, potions will only bring you to about 14, if that.

Definitely build dependent, but potions add at most about 20% DPS (agree with @theamazingx). For most builds, it is a much smaller difference, often 5% or less.

My magwarden, for example, sees no gain from expensive potions, since I already have major prophecy from inner light and major sorcery from the blue betty.

Vicarra · November 2017

What I would really rather see is a change to the dungeon finder, so that there is a sort of enforced progression that helps players learn to survive. Players who have not completed version I in normal dungeons should not be able to go to version II or vet of that same dungeon in the DF queue. In my ideal world, the progression would be:

Complete version I dungeon(s) in normal
Have the option (at 50) to queue for random vet of those dungeons, and normal version II
After completing version II, add that to the "unlocked" vet dungeons
After completing version II dungeons, include normal DLC dungeons
After completing normal DLC, include them in vet

People do like to get very precious over their big numbers on a target that doesn't fight back, but no amount of humping the dummy will stop you from dying to mechanics you were unprepared for, simply because you got thrown into a random vet dungeon where you never did normal. The dummy is very useful for training yourself to your rotation, and testing out new ones. It's less useful as a measuring stick for your e-peen.

SydneyGrey · November 2017

Vicarra wrote: »

What I would really rather see is a change to the dungeon finder, so that there is a sort of enforced progression that helps players learn to survive. Players who have not completed version I in normal dungeons should not be able to go to version II or vet of that same dungeon in the DF queue.

I agree, except there's a bug where you can queue for a normal dungeon, and it'll put you in a veteran dungeon anyway. It's happened to me twice, and I'm always super careful to make sure I have the right dungeon checked in the Group Finder tool. It wasn't a matter of me just checking the wrong dungeon by accident.

SugaComa · November 2017

I know rotation is important but for some of us sustaining it is hard, I'm an older gamer with arthritis developing so my fingers can cramp up , I have to do a slower rotation as faster causes more issues and if I lock up (fingers cramp and don't move) I do 0 DPS

Cos of this I can only really do vet dungeons and will probably never complete a vet trial, though I've had a few runs in normal ones

My DPS on a target dummy ranges from 10k to 22k depending on the day and if I put all my skills to DPS but I tend to have a few skills set up for heals these days for PvP

I find dummies an awful way to test DPS , I tend to do more damage on tight crowds of adds than single target, maybe they should do a crowded test dummy to test on

SBC · November 2017

I've been curious about these skeletons. I tried it last night and only pulled 16k without potions. Granted I know my rotation is sloppy at times. Sometimes I let endless hail fall off for a second or two. But from the numbers I see people say they do, I saw that and was like damn... I suck. I feel like I'm ok doing vet dungeons though so idk.

chaz · November 2017

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

Kanar wrote: »

If you're on PC/NA, Look me up if you want a damage dealer for vFH hm. I'm always up for that dungeon and know some other great DDs too. That dungeon is not just about skelly DPS but also staying alive.

True and True. I can say the same of healers. Everyone I run into always say "If you're a DPS, then TRUST your healers" Well in most cases, in this game No one is perfect. Healers don't heal as you would like them to and Tank, well they don't perfectly tank as you like them to as well.

So a high health DPS in most cases is probably someone that recognized these flaws, don't give "Talk back" in chat because they're wise enough to know they needed that high health to not only sustain, but to use it for the dps that lacks because tank isn't that good as they think and to also heal team mates because the "Healers" went from healing to DPS.

I for one, will never judge a person by what their DPS number is. Because maybe, Just maybe they have a heavy hit, stam hit combo that helps quickly take down a high health monster while they spam things like vigor so the team doesn't die because healers aren't healing and the tank isn't drawing the other monsters attacking the rest of the team.

But that said, yes there are quit a few people out there now that pull a lot of DPS, and I noticed it's usually someone spamming that mag or stam spear attack, Aurora Javelin or Blinding Javelin. You will see very few people with high DPS using Rapid Strikes and steel tornado.

But all in all, in my experience as I chat with people in game. Strong DPS will mainly run with people from guilds, with Healers they know will focus on healing as the majority and with a tank that will taunt from afar to pull as much as they can so the area is not a complete mess. Once a monster starts chasing after the healers, what did you think was going to happen? So yeah, thus the high health DPS. If I see a low health DPS I always know I have to have a bararge of soul gems on hand & sure enough, I find myself rez'ng people more often than not.

So my opinion of your opinion, don't knock it, just go in and play for fun. It's only a game man.

bhagwad · November 2017

chaz wrote: »

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

Kanar wrote: »

If you're on PC/NA, Look me up if you want a damage dealer for vFH hm. I'm always up for that dungeon and know some other great DDs too. That dungeon is not just about skelly DPS but also staying alive.

True and True. I can say the same of healers. Everyone I run into always say "If you're a DPS, then TRUST your healers" Well in most cases, in this game No one is perfect. Healers don't heal as you would like them to and Tank, well they don't perfectly tank as you like them to as well.

So a high health DPS in most cases is probably someone that recognized these flaws, don't give "Talk back" in chat because they're wise enough to know they needed that high health to not only sustain, but to use it for the dps that lacks because tank isn't that good as they think and to also heal team mates because the "Healers" went from healing to DPS.

I for one, will never judge a person by what their DPS number is. Because maybe, Just maybe they have a heavy hit, stam hit combo that helps quickly take down a high health monster while they spam things like vigor so the team doesn't die because healers aren't healing and the tank isn't drawing the other monsters attacking the rest of the team.

But that said, yes there are quit a few people out there now that pull a lot of DPS, and I noticed it's usually someone spamming that mag or stam spear attack, Aurora Javelin or Blinding Javelin. You will see very few people with high DPS using Rapid Strikes and steel tornado.

But all in all, in my experience as I chat with people in game. Strong DPS will mainly run with people from guilds, with Healers they know will focus on healing as the majority and with a tank that will taunt from afar to pull as much as they can so the area is not a complete mess. Once a monster starts chasing after the healers, what did you think was going to happen? So yeah, thus the high health DPS. If I see a low health DPS I always know I have to have a bararge of soul gems on hand & sure enough, I find myself rez'ng people more often than not.

So my opinion of your opinion, don't knock it, just go in and play for fun. It's only a game man.

I think everyone has their own definition of what is "fun". For me, "fun" could be doing a speed run. Or getting achievements. Or farming motifs. Vet Falkreath hold cannot be fun with low DPS. Fun for who? You will take literally 30 seconds to kill the very first solo non-boss minatour!

That's not fun for me, and I doubt it's "fun" for anyone else on the team.