How Is Breton Magicka Cost Reduction, Not Better Than Altmer Magicka Recovery?

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · November 2017

Altmer: Increased Magicka Recovery by 9%

Breton: Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 3%

Lets just assume your recovery is generic 1600. And you spend 7000 magicka in 2 seconds on your spells.

Then:
1600 x 0.09 = 144
7000 x 0.03 = 210

3% Cost Reduction here saves a hefty 45.83% more Magicka than 9% recovery does. {(210-144)/144}

Doesn't that make the Breton Passive better?

And then there is a separate question of 3960 Spell resist vs 4% Elemental Damage.
Damage is hands down better in PvE.
But isn't the spell resist better in PvP 1vX scenario?

Haquor · November 2017

Regen is happening all the time. So when you arent casting you still regen. Cost reduction is only of benefit when casting.

Resistance is provided by a lot of sources and isnt a big deal if you are shielding. Damage tho.... always good.

Altmer is king.

Sixty5 · November 2017

In a PVE sense, the cost reduction is better, but that is only because you are constantly throwing out abilities. However, the issue is that in PVE you really want that damage above anything else, and the Breton can't compete with the extra elemental damage the Altmer gets.

In PVP on the other hand you aren't always casting abilities every second in combat as you line of sight, etc, and thus the cost reduction becomes less effective. The resistances are nice, but you are also still lacking damage.

Honestly Breton performs best as a healer, though sadly the lizards are stealing that job too.

In the end though, the overall difference between Altmer, Breton and Dunmer in terms of Mag DPS is pretty minor, within the degree of variability that crit gives.

SoLooney · November 2017

breton cant compete with the elemental damage. there is a reason magicka dps classes go altmer or dunmer

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · November 2017

"In PVP on the other hand you aren't always casting abilities every second in combat as you line of sight, etc, and thus the cost reduction becomes less effective."

Then why did people spend so much Champion Points in the Cost Reduction, before it got changed?

Tormy · November 2017

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

"In PVP on the other hand you aren't always casting abilities every second in combat as you line of sight, etc, and thus the cost reduction becomes less effective."

Then why did people spend so much Champion Points in the Cost Reduction, before it got changed?

So you could use more skills more often? Same reason people put CP into the regen passive.

redspecter23 · November 2017

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Then why did people spend so much Champion Points in the Cost Reduction, before it got changed?

Because they didn't give up any damage passives to get it. Also, the other cp lines in those trees other than regen were mostly terrible.

Liofa · November 2017

There is something you are not adding to your calculations . It is called diminishing returns . 3% cost reduction is not just a flat bonus . All cost reduction passives are multiplicative and you will benefit less as you have more . It means that 3% is actually less than 3% . How much it gets affected by other cost reduction passives depends on your build . For example , being a sorcerer means you already have cost reduction in class passives which will affect your Breton passive .

On the other hand , Magicka Recovery works all the time and doesn't get diminished when combined with other Recovery passives/bonuses .

Assuming we are talking PvP (since Elemental Damage bonus from High Elf and Dark Elf is simply too good to pass on for PvE) , you won't be fighting all the time and will have some time before you enter the next fight . Cost reduction does nothing while outside of combat . Just a reminder , if you get attacked by a new opponent before you recover fully , you will automatically be at disadvantage .

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · November 2017

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

"In PVP on the other hand you aren't always casting abilities every second in combat as you line of sight, etc, and thus the cost reduction becomes less effective."

Then why did people spend so much Champion Points in the Cost Reduction, before it got changed?

Because there was nothing else to put them into after getting 25% more regen and 16% cost reduction with out front load CP was amazing.

luen79rwb17_ESO · November 2017

Well developers have said before that breton cost reduction passive is 3% which is huuuge. And that's a pretty convincing statement for me so I'm sticking with my breton!!!!

itsfatbass · November 2017

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Well developers have said before that breton cost reduction passive is 3% which is huuuge. And that's a pretty convincing statement for me so I'm sticking with my breton!!!!

Don't take anything the developers say as valid advice, seriously. Listen to several of the replies in here, altmer > Breton any day of the week, hands down.

xb1LL_mr_sir_LL · November 2017

breton & nord the dumpster races.

Minno · November 2017

SoLooney wrote: »

breton cant compete with the elemental damage. there is a reason magicka dps classes go altmer or dunmer

For PVP, the cost reduction+spell resistance lets you dump extra into dmg+physical resists. Your Max mag helps boost your shield value for defense.
If you wear 5pc LA and are a templar, you'll have 17% reduction (3+4+10).

This is the equation on the UESP editor:
MagickaCost = ((Misc.SpellCost)*(1 + CP.MagickaCost) + Item.MagickaCost)*(Skill.MagickaCost + Set.MagickaCost + Buff.MagickaCost + 1)

Assuming you don't use another set for mag cost reduction (using dampen mag):
MagickaCost = ((4590)*(1 + 0) + 0)*(-17% + 0 + 0 + 1) = 3810.

While you don't get the extra regen that high elf gets or the extra elemental dmg, templars deal magic dmg in a majority of their skills (aside from destro staff.) Picking LA lets you get 20% regen, 1815 spell resists, but 4884 penetration and 2191 spell crit that are needed more for increasing the dmg for breton templars.

For why you can stack physical resists; Bretons get 3960 SR. On it's own its, its about 6% dmg mitigation. In a vaccum this is tiny, but nothing in ESO exists in a vaccum. If you start adding more sources:
- Breton passive - 3960
- Templar passive - 2640
- LA passive - 1815
- HA passive - 362
- 2 pts CP focus - 209
- Armor - 8780 ( 5 L 1Mbelt 1H head) all impen
- Major armor buff - 5280
- 1pc chudan/pirate - 2900 (yellow)
- Total : 25946 (my build editor says 26021 but im not sure where im missing the extra 75 resists.) If you use defending traits, you'll see 30279 resists which equate to HA resist stacks.

That's nothing to scoff about; even if your enemy debuffs you with 15280 penetration, you will have a 16% dmg mitigation in pvp. That's around 40 points into thick skin/ironclad! and 1% more than 100 pts into ele defender. But then again, this is calculated after dmg shields and is multiplicative with block, so it's totally build dependent.

With LA, you can roll 3 dmg enchants and apprentice mundas. With a sword, youll be at 3k SD, and with other sets youll see 37-38k max mag, while you stay at 1400 base regen (1700 with ele drain+channeled focus.) This doesnt assume lich set, or potion regen buffs.)

In PVE, maybe High Elf is better for dmg, but SR helps out the healers while LA+Templar cost reduction helps you out where everyone lost their easy 17+% from the CP system. In PVP, there are reasons some top level sorcs are bretons, and some templars love their bretons (myself included).

WrathOfInnos · November 2017

Liofa wrote: »

There is something you are not adding to your calculations . It is called diminishing returns . 3% cost reduction is not just a flat bonus . All cost reduction passives are multiplicative and you will benefit less as you have more . It means that 3% is actually less than 3% . How much it gets affected by other cost reduction passives depends on your build . For example , being a sorcerer means you already have cost reduction in class passives which will affect your Breton passive .

On the other hand , Magicka Recovery works all the time and doesn't get diminished when combined with other Recovery passives/bonuses.

This is not true. Cost reduction bonuses are additive, and therefore have increasing return, not diminishing.

For example, if you are a sorcerer in 7 pieces light armor and using the sedicer set you get 5% + 14% + 8% cost reduction, so spells cost 73% of their base value. The Breton passive makes this 70%, which is actually 4.1% reduction in cost (instead of the stated 3%).

The diminishing returns come in if you are using flat value cost reduction glyph on jewelry. The stated value for these is 203 Magicka cost reduction, but this is diminished by your % cost reduction. For the example above, a 203 cost reduction with 30% cost reduction makes the glyph only reduce costs by 142.

For sustain, Breton definitely beats Altmer. Altmer is still better for DPS because the increased elemental damage is significant. I would say that Bretons make some of the best healers, approximately tied with Argonians.

FakeFox · November 2017

To sum it all up: It's situational.^^

Minno · November 2017

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

There is something you are not adding to your calculations . It is called diminishing returns . 3% cost reduction is not just a flat bonus . All cost reduction passives are multiplicative and you will benefit less as you have more . It means that 3% is actually less than 3% . How much it gets affected by other cost reduction passives depends on your build . For example , being a sorcerer means you already have cost reduction in class passives which will affect your Breton passive .

On the other hand , Magicka Recovery works all the time and doesn't get diminished when combined with other Recovery passives/bonuses.

This is not true. Cost reduction bonuses are additive, and therefore have increasing return, not diminishing.

For example, if you are a sorcerer in 7 pieces light armor and using the sedicer set you get 5% + 14% + 8% cost reduction, so spells cost 73% of their base value. The Breton passive makes this 70%, which is actually 4.1% reduction in cost (instead of the stated 3%).

The diminishing returns come in if you are using flat value cost reduction glyph on jewelry. The stated value for these is 203 Magicka cost reduction, but this is diminished by your % cost reduction. For the example above, a 203 cost reduction with 30% cost reduction makes the glyph only reduce costs by 142.

For sustain, Breton definitely beats Altmer. Altmer is still better for DPS because the increased elemental damage is significant. I would say that Bretons make some of the best healers, approximately tied with Argonians.

That is my understanding as well. Thanks for the extra info!

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

I thought it was the opposite, spell cost reduction glyphs happen first, off the full value of the spell cost, reducing the effectiveness of %cost reduction

WrathOfInnos · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

I thought it was the opposite, spell cost reduction glyphs happen first, off the full value of the spell cost, reducing the effectiveness of %cost reduction

Yes the glyphs are subtracted first, that is why they get diminished. If they were calculated after % reductions, you would see the full stated value (similar to how block cost reduction works).

idk · November 2017

1. OP has made very simplistic calculations. For starters CP was not figure into this which is a huge error.

2. The regen listed is accurate for a small population. Man that n PvP would have high regen. Healers, especially for vMoL, vHoF and vAS likely have even higher regen than listed. Damage dealers in PvE would have no where near what OP has mentioned

It suggesting in the end OP is correct or not, but his/her reasoning is correct or not.

Let's look at PvE only.

Has vampire passives in play? That minimizes the benefit of added regen.

Of course CP helps regen but offers no help with cost reduction.

What is ones rotation? Heavy attacks in the rotation favors regen since magicks is not spent as often.

Static vacuum of one skill cast after another will favor cost reduction. To compare in actual use requires taking into account all these points and more.

WrathOfInnos · November 2017

@idk All valid points. Most of the things you listed point toward cost reduction as better than regen.

The one counterpoint is your heavy attack example, which would be in favor of regen. However, I would argue that if a build uses enough heavy attacks to make regen better than cost reduction, then that build probably doesn't need either, since heavy attacks will be keeping resources full.

It's really only builds that spam expensive skills back to back that need to build for sustain, and they get much more benefit from cost reduction.

idk · November 2017

With a build using a heavy attack in the rotation cost reduction loses some of its benefit. Top players I know (PvE) are adding a touch of regen instead of cost reduction.

Also, if your looking at choosing a race for a new character the bonus to elemental from high elf is a big plus compared to the Breton.

In the end, choose what you want. Both are fine.

FrancisCrawford · November 2017

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Altmer: Increased Magicka Recovery by 9%

Breton: Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 3%

Lets just assume your recovery is generic 1600. And you spend 7000 magicka in 2 seconds on your spells.

Then:
1600 x 0.09 = 144
7000 x 0.03 = 210

3% Cost Reduction here saves a hefty 45.83% more Magicka than 9% recovery does. {(210-144)/144}

Doesn't that make the Breton Passive better?

And then there is a separate question of 3960 Spell resist vs 4% Elemental Damage.
Damage is hands down better in PvE.
But isn't the spell resist better in PvP 1vX scenario?

The Breton passive is better, in your example, for as long as you can spend 3500 magicka per second.

More generally:

Altmer rules vs. Breton because of the other passive they don't share, at least in cases where there will be a lot of elemental damage or a lot of shields cast. For example, on my magicka sorcerers spell resistance is almost useless, while a huge fraction of damage done is elemental.
Both benefits seem to stack well with others.
For 3% to be better than 9%, it has to be at least approximately true that only 1/3 of the magicka you use during a fight comes from regeneration.

Let's drill into that last point. Sources of magicka include:

Regeneration.
The initial magicka pool with which you started the fight. The relative importance of this factor is less the shorter the fight is.
Any sources of magicka gain other than regeneration, such as heavy attacks, potions, shards, the destro staff on-kill magicka return passive, etc.

Has anybody done a bottoms-up comparison of that kind?

RustedValor · November 2017

Altmer is better than Brenton if you are using elemental damage as your DPS source making it better for Magica Sorc/Dk and using destruction staff. If you are using Magicka damage skills the Altmer Damage doesn't make a difference. Most of the Damage from Magicka Nightblade and Templar is from Magic damage not eletmental. Healing Staff is also magick damage. Brenton Spell Resistance is always usefull especially if you are a vampire since it will help mitigate the fire damage. Now as a Brenton you get the bonus regen from Vampire + Cost Reduction and will be able to survive even in fire damage heavy areas much easier than High elf, especially with enough CP. Altmer will simply get melted by fire trying to use vamp, Brenton Can make it work since the bonus spell resist is really noticeable.

RustedValor · November 2017

Another Good Idea if you are using Brenton in a Dungeon with lots of fire Damage is to stay in Vampirism Stage 2 or 3. This way you get the Regen/Damage Reduction Below 50% and take less fire damage. With your extra spell resistance from racial passive the fire should be barely noticable at stage 2, and managable at stage 3. Just feed on a mob and use vamp skills to change stages. Stage 4 is useless in PVE.

TheUndeadAmulet · November 2017

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Altmer: Increased Magicka Recovery by 9%

Breton: Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 3%

Lets just assume your recovery is generic 1600. And you spend 7000 magicka in 2 seconds on your spells.

Then:
1600 x 0.09 = 144
7000 x 0.03 = 210

3% Cost Reduction here saves a hefty 45.83% more Magicka than 9% recovery does. {(210-144)/144}

Doesn't that make the Breton Passive better?

And then there is a separate question of 3960 Spell resist vs 4% Elemental Damage.
Damage is hands down better in PvE.
But isn't the spell resist better in PvP 1vX scenario?

Lets be real though, most magicka builds have around half that magicka recovery.
Edit: In PvE

Emma_Overload · November 2017

Breton cost reduction is weak, should be more like 6%. What OP doesn't take into account is that racial regen buffs scale well with other buffs, but cost reductions have diminishing returns.

ninjaguyman · November 2017

i'd say that the recovery and cost reduction is ballpark close enough to eachother to not matter a huge deal. the reason you'd choose altmer over breton is if you have elemental damage in your build. In a pve sense, you will always have elemental damage on a magicka build. In pvp then this is only a maybe. On my magicka nb i dont have a single elemental skill slotted in pvp, so breton would be in general the better choice for me because the elemental damage would pretty much be a wasted passive.

WrathOfInnos · November 2017

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Breton cost reduction is weak, should be more like 6%. What OP doesn't take into account is that racial regen buffs scale well with other buffs, but cost reductions have diminishing returns.

That is true only when combining them with flat value jewelry glyphs. When combining multiple % based bonuses the opposite becomes true. Regen gets diminishing returns and cost reduction gets increasing return the more it is stacked.

Runefang · November 2017

Generally more damage is preferred, sustain is achieved in other ways.

waitwhat · November 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

To sum it all up: It's situational.^^

This, so much.

Breton passives are really helpful for vet trial hardmode healing. That spell resists makes a big difference in survivability, and as a healer in those situations, if you aren't casting you are almost always heavy attacking, and thus you get near constant use of the cost reduction. You have to both pass the DPS check AND follow mechanics almost flawlessly as a group. Breton passives give the healer in those situations more leeway without placing them at some disadvantage.

In terms of damage output, I don't think a Breton mag-whatever is going to put out more damage on an equally geared altmer mag-whatever played by the same person. The raw math is against them, all other things being equal.

Consider Also:

1. Breton cost reduction has become more valuable now that Morrowind made it relevant by removing Magician (the mag cost-reduction CP).
2. Small percentage-based increases in damage, as that of the Altmer, can translate into large gains in total output, depending on how they stack (in this case, multiplicative = good) with other bonuses (e.g. sorc shock damage bonus).
3. The greatest inhibitor of group dps is, for most progressions out there, deaths due to mechanics failure. Everything from a silly oopsie to an inability (refusal?) to work with the mechanics of the activity. The racial choices aren't the issue as often as the players themselves are the issue.
4. EDIT/IN ADDITION: Regen isn't all the time. Regen is every 1-2 seconds or so, and casts can halt regen.

tl;dr: Anyone who tells you that Breton is inherently and always inferior to Altmer is simply incorrect, and they probably are going to wipe your group with their persistently poor positioning.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · November 2017

Thanks all for all the input.
It has been very helpful indeed.