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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
A question regarding ESO youtube videos and copyright claims
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Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »But does that make it any more illegal in terms of copyright than a tutorial showing how to craft a piece of gear?
Yes.
I mean, technically it's not about illegality. But, it does mean your chances of successfully mounting a fair use defense, even if you had the money to go to court, are pretty terrible.
I see. So a tutorial showing an exploit and a tutorial showing how to craft armour would both be vulnerable to a copyright claim, but the one with innocent intent would have a stronger case using fair use.
yes,exploits are forbidden, if you show it in a video how to do it, it would be taken down. if you do a video on crafting, there is no TOS violation and is more of a advertisement of the game, so it is good for ZOS and welcome by them
I'm not talking about the content in videos. I'm talking about copyright of ESO videos. The video was taken down for copyright which means it breeched copyright. Videos on crafting in ESO also violate copyright and could also be taken down.
Yes, you are talking about the content in the videos, because when it comes to copyright those are inseparable.
Also, if you're using someone else's copyrighted material, you could be subject to a takedown, full stop. There are specific exemptions that are carved out, but this doesn't fall under any of those.
I meant I'm not talking about whether the content was bad or good or wrong or immoral. If any video can be claimed for someone else's copyrighted material then it shouldn't matter if the content had bad intentions or not. Sure it could help the case of a defense if it was made with innocence, but it could still be claimed
Yeah, that's the part you don't seem to understand. Legally speaking it is all infringing.
You make a video of you playing your favorite video game... unless you also made the game yourself, it is going to be copyright infringement.
Now, the rights holder can decide if they want to sue you. That's their choice. They get to pick who they want to go after, and who they don't. If they like what you're doing? You get a pass. If they don't, then they'll file a C&D or a DMCA takedown.
At that point, when you're in court, and spending $200 an hour for your attorney, you can argue it was fair use.
I understand that it is all infringing. I just don't agree with the whole pick and choose scenario. I'm sure ZOS or Bethesda are well within their legal right to do so, but I don't think that makes it fair.
What would be fair would be a rule that is enforced across the board, not just something that is picked and chosen when it's in the company's best interest. Which obviously isn't going to happen because they're a huge company and aren't breaking any laws. I just found it interesting as I've never really seen or been aware of a company doing such a thing before. I learnt a lot from this thread though so thank you
Edited by Voxicity on November 12, 2017 1:42PM0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Was this one. I don't condone what they did, I just find it quite scary not knowing what is breaking the ToS and what isnt any more, plus the fact that can lead onto issues with other platforms such as youtube. I will definitely be hesistant on uploading any kind of tutorial in the future because by law, i believe, it would fall into the same category that this video fell into, violating copyright
If you are scared, don't post videos about how to exploit.
1 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »
Was this one. I don't condone what they did, I just find it quite scary not knowing what is breaking the ToS and what isnt any more, plus the fact that can lead onto issues with other platforms such as youtube. I will definitely be hesistant on uploading any kind of tutorial in the future because by law, i believe, it would fall into the same category that this video fell into, violating copyright
If you are scared, don't post videos about how to exploit.
What is considered an exploit though? vMoL cheese, gap closing, AP farming etc videos are all still up.
if I upload a video of myself killing a world boss and it glitches out and I kill it, is my video going to be hit with a copyright claim?Edited by Voxicity on November 12, 2017 1:49PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »But does that make it any more illegal in terms of copyright than a tutorial showing how to craft a piece of gear?
Yes.
I mean, technically it's not about illegality. But, it does mean your chances of successfully mounting a fair use defense, even if you had the money to go to court, are pretty terrible.
I see. So a tutorial showing an exploit and a tutorial showing how to craft armour would both be vulnerable to a copyright claim, but the one with innocent intent would have a stronger case using fair use.
yes,exploits are forbidden, if you show it in a video how to do it, it would be taken down. if you do a video on crafting, there is no TOS violation and is more of a advertisement of the game, so it is good for ZOS and welcome by them
I'm not talking about the content in videos. I'm talking about copyright of ESO videos. The video was taken down for copyright which means it breeched copyright. Videos on crafting in ESO also violate copyright and could also be taken down.
Yes, you are talking about the content in the videos, because when it comes to copyright those are inseparable.
Also, if you're using someone else's copyrighted material, you could be subject to a takedown, full stop. There are specific exemptions that are carved out, but this doesn't fall under any of those.
I meant I'm not talking about whether the content was bad or good or wrong or immoral. If any video can be claimed for someone else's copyrighted material then it shouldn't matter if the content had bad intentions or not. Sure it could help the case of a defense if it was made with innocence, but it could still be claimed
Yeah, that's the part you don't seem to understand. Legally speaking it is all infringing.
You make a video of you playing your favorite video game... unless you also made the game yourself, it is going to be copyright infringement.
Now, the rights holder can decide if they want to sue you. That's their choice. They get to pick who they want to go after, and who they don't. If they like what you're doing? You get a pass. If they don't, then they'll file a C&D or a DMCA takedown.
At that point, when you're in court, and spending $200 an hour for your attorney, you can argue it was fair use.
I understand that it is all infringing. I just don't agree with the whole pick and choose scenario. I'm sure ZOS or Bethesda are well within their legal right to do so, but I don't think that makes it fair.
What would be fair would be a rule that is enforced across the board, not just something that is picked and chosen when it's in the company's best interest. Which obviously isn't going to happen because they're a huge company and aren't breaking any laws. I just found it interesting as I've never really seen or been aware of a company doing such a thing before. I learnt a lot from this thread though so thank you
There's a lot of horror stories of companies slamming copyright claims on videos, Nintendo being a particularly notorious one.
There have also been many that have used copyright claims to suppress negative reviews of their games, here's a good watch:
https://youtu.be/8D_Vyca69TE
What ZOS did with this exploit video is hardly unusual, or even unethical compared to other companies.1 -
Shad0wfire99✭✭✭✭✭
✭OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »This dude has uploaded yet another video of the exploit apparently..
Yeah. Because he's a child.
XBox NA1 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shad0wfire99 wrote: »OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »This dude has uploaded yet another video of the exploit apparently..
Yeah. Because he's a child.
I don't think insulting people is helpful at all, no matter what they may have done.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »But does that make it any more illegal in terms of copyright than a tutorial showing how to craft a piece of gear?
Yes.
I mean, technically it's not about illegality. But, it does mean your chances of successfully mounting a fair use defense, even if you had the money to go to court, are pretty terrible.
I see. So a tutorial showing an exploit and a tutorial showing how to craft armour would both be vulnerable to a copyright claim, but the one with innocent intent would have a stronger case using fair use.
yes,exploits are forbidden, if you show it in a video how to do it, it would be taken down. if you do a video on crafting, there is no TOS violation and is more of a advertisement of the game, so it is good for ZOS and welcome by them
I'm not talking about the content in videos. I'm talking about copyright of ESO videos. The video was taken down for copyright which means it breeched copyright. Videos on crafting in ESO also violate copyright and could also be taken down.
Yes, you are talking about the content in the videos, because when it comes to copyright those are inseparable.
Also, if you're using someone else's copyrighted material, you could be subject to a takedown, full stop. There are specific exemptions that are carved out, but this doesn't fall under any of those.
I meant I'm not talking about whether the content was bad or good or wrong or immoral. If any video can be claimed for someone else's copyrighted material then it shouldn't matter if the content had bad intentions or not. Sure it could help the case of a defense if it was made with innocence, but it could still be claimed
Yeah, that's the part you don't seem to understand. Legally speaking it is all infringing.
You make a video of you playing your favorite video game... unless you also made the game yourself, it is going to be copyright infringement.
Now, the rights holder can decide if they want to sue you. That's their choice. They get to pick who they want to go after, and who they don't. If they like what you're doing? You get a pass. If they don't, then they'll file a C&D or a DMCA takedown.
At that point, when you're in court, and spending $200 an hour for your attorney, you can argue it was fair use.
I understand that it is all infringing. I just don't agree with the whole pick and choose scenario. I'm sure ZOS or Bethesda are well within their legal right to do so, but I don't think that makes it fair.
What would be fair would be a rule that is enforced across the board, not just something that is picked and chosen when it's in the company's best interest. Which obviously isn't going to happen because they're a huge company and aren't breaking any laws. I just found it interesting as I've never really seen or been aware of a company doing such a thing before. I learnt a lot from this thread though so thank you
No, you don't understand.
If someone harms you, you're not forced to sue them. It's called a tort, legally speaking. You have cause, you could choose to go after them if you wanted, but you're not forced to.
This is no different.
Copyright is a little complicated because there is criminal and civil infringement. Criminal infringement is commercial piracy. Any argument for fairness would need to be addressed to that. And yeah, if you're engaging in that, you will be hunted down and prosecuted.
Civil infringement is at the discretion of the rights holder. You harmed them, and they get to decide if they want to do anything about it or let it slide.
It's the only reason we have tutorial videos in the first place. Or LPs, or any number of other non-critique, videos on games. If the companies were compelled to respond in every case... you wouldn't see YouTube. Hell, you wouldn't see most of the games, because the companies would be bogged down (financially) trying to deal with the content out there. Everything would seize up, and it would be a huge moneypit for everyone involved.
Hell, just linking stuff, like the video you did earlier, would be buried in a long argument about secondary liability.
So, no, if you have a copyright, you're not compelled to burn money going after every fanfic writer out there, when you know full well they don't have any assets you can seize.
This is far better than some hypothetical world with an all or nothing approach.
Here, simple example. How many ESO videos are on YouTube right now? Do you know? I don't. Do you want to pay a lawyer who specializes in copyright $600 to find out? Because I don't. But, if you were going to force ZOS to go after every instance of infringement, they'd need to be doing that daily.
This is better. And, yeah, there's free advertising in it for them.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Also, @Voxicity, while you're thinking about all of this, a warning from Jessica: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/380210/response-to-the-veteran-hard-mode-asylum-sanctorium-trial-exploit-nov-10/p1
Short version. You do not want to emulate what you saw in that video. Okay? You will get banned.Edited by starkerealm on November 12, 2017 2:03PM0 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Also, @Voxicity, while you're thinking about all of this, a warning from Jessica: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/380210/response-to-the-veteran-hard-mode-asylum-sanctorium-trial-exploit-nov-10/p1
Short version. You do not want to emulate what you saw in that video. Okay? You will get banned.
lol. I'm aware of the situation0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Also, @Voxicity, while you're thinking about all of this, a warning from Jessica: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/380210/response-to-the-veteran-hard-mode-asylum-sanctorium-trial-exploit-nov-10/p1
Short version. You do not want to emulate what you saw in that video. Okay? You will get banned.
lol. I'm aware of the situation
Just making sure. Since you're so eager to see these videos frolicking freely.1 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Also, @Voxicity, while you're thinking about all of this, a warning from Jessica: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/380210/response-to-the-veteran-hard-mode-asylum-sanctorium-trial-exploit-nov-10/p1
Short version. You do not want to emulate what you saw in that video. Okay? You will get banned.
lol. I'm aware of the situation
Just making sure. Since you're so eager to see these videos frolicking freely.
Just because I don't disagree with exploiting like most of the sheep in this community doesn't mean I'm going to do it myself lol0 -
OutLaw_Nynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Also, @Voxicity, while you're thinking about all of this, a warning from Jessica: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/380210/response-to-the-veteran-hard-mode-asylum-sanctorium-trial-exploit-nov-10/p1
Short version. You do not want to emulate what you saw in that video. Okay? You will get banned.
lol. I'm aware of the situation
Just making sure. Since you're so eager to see these videos frolicking freely.
Just because I don't disagree with exploiting like most of the sheep in this community doesn't mean I'm going to do it myself lol
Why don’t you go call their lawyer and ask? You aren’t going to get an answer from them (Zos).The way you’re acting is as if you aren’t going to be happy with any answer given to you. Don’t exploit. Don’t do something that doesn’t feel right. Again, if you can’t figure that out with common sense that’s on you.1 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Also, @Voxicity, while you're thinking about all of this, a warning from Jessica: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/380210/response-to-the-veteran-hard-mode-asylum-sanctorium-trial-exploit-nov-10/p1
Short version. You do not want to emulate what you saw in that video. Okay? You will get banned.
lol. I'm aware of the situation
Just making sure. Since you're so eager to see these videos frolicking freely.
Just because I don't disagree with exploiting like most of the sheep in this community doesn't mean I'm going to do it myself lol
Why don’t you go call their lawyer and ask? You aren’t going to get an answer from them (Zos).The way you’re acting is as if you aren’t going to be happy with any answer given to you. Don’t exploit. Don’t do something that doesn’t feel right. Again, if you can’t figure that out with common sense that’s on you.
It's not that I'm looking for a definite answer. I was just curious about the subject and it has been helpful to me in understanding the situation. If the thread does nothing for you, then don't respond to it.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Also, yeah, @Dduke is right. Compared to other publishers (I'm thinking of Nintendo, Sega and Konami here), Zenimax's copyright position is pretty benign.Edited by starkerealm on November 12, 2017 2:17PM0 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Also, yeah, @Dduke is right. Compared to other publishers (I'm thinking of Nintendo, Sega and Konami here), Zenimax's copyright position is pretty benign.
Yeah I agree with you there, no question about it. Maybe I shouldn't have made a thread on something I don't really know much about but it's been useful for me so I'm not really bothered
thanks again 0 -
Huyen✭✭✭✭✭
✭They can hardly say on youtube "this video has been taken down for violating the ToS of ZoS / Bethesda."....Exploiting is against the ToS in any form.Huyen Shadowpaw, dedicated nightblade tank - PS4 (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, nightblade dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Lightpaw, templar healer - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, necromancer dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, dragonknight (no defined role yet)
"Failure is only the opportunity to begin again. Only this time, more wisely" - Uncle Iroh0 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They can hardly say on youtube "this video has been taken down for violating the ToS of ZoS / Bethesda."....Exploiting is against the ToS in any form.
This isn't concerning the ToS. It's about copyright, and the way ZOS picks and chooses what is and what isn't bannable with no logic or reasonEdited by Voxicity on November 12, 2017 3:48PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They can hardly say on youtube "this video has been taken down for violating the ToS of ZoS / Bethesda."....Exploiting is against the ToS in any form.
This isn't concerning the ToS. It's about copyright, and the way ZOS picks and chooses what is and what isn't bannable with no logic or reason
I think there is logic behind what gets policed by them on youtube:
"Will this video's existence increase/decrease our revenue? Is it good or bad for the game?"
"If this copyright claim gets taken to court (very unlikely), can the uploader feasibly claim fair use - i.e. is there a chance of losing the law suit?"
If you were ZOS, those would probably be the two questions in your mind when deciding to hit someone with a copyright claim.2 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They can hardly say on youtube "this video has been taken down for violating the ToS of ZoS / Bethesda."....Exploiting is against the ToS in any form.
This isn't concerning the ToS. It's about copyright, and the way ZOS picks and chooses what is and what isn't bannable with no logic or reason
I think there is logic behind what gets policed by them on youtube:
"Will this video's existence increase/decrease our revenue? Is it good or bad for the game?"
"If this copyright claim gets taken to court (very unlikely), can the uploader feasibly claim fair use - i.e. is there a chance of losing the law suit?"
If you were ZOS, those would probably be the two questions in your mind when deciding to hit someone with a copyright claim.
I don't find it logical for them to remove a video showcasing an exploit, yet keep up videos with 45,000 overall views showcasing how to exploit vMoL, how to gap close into keep, a streamer I reported who used shadow image to get people stuck in terrain unable to block or dodge your attacks, etc.
It's all just facade. ZOS don't actually care if their content is being cheesed or not. They're just winging it. At least that's the impression I've gotEdited by Voxicity on November 12, 2017 4:06PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They can hardly say on youtube "this video has been taken down for violating the ToS of ZoS / Bethesda."....Exploiting is against the ToS in any form.
This isn't concerning the ToS. It's about copyright, and the way ZOS picks and chooses what is and what isn't bannable with no logic or reason
I think there is logic behind what gets policed by them on youtube:
"Will this video's existence increase/decrease our revenue? Is it good or bad for the game?"
"If this copyright claim gets taken to court (very unlikely), can the uploader feasibly claim fair use - i.e. is there a chance of losing the law suit?"
If you were ZOS, those would probably be the two questions in your mind when deciding to hit someone with a copyright claim.
I don't find it logical for them to remove a video showcasing an exploit, yet keep up videos with 45,000 overall views showcasing how to exploit vMoL, how to gap close into keep, a streamer I reported who used shadow image to get people stuck in terrain unable to block or dodge your attacks, etc.
Considering they're actually banning people using the vAS hm exploit, there's a potential of monetary loss for Zenimax from the lost subscriptions. Every view that video gets & every person who decides to replicate it & use the exploit... You can see how that might quickly spiral out of control if the video was left untouched, especially if it went viral.
That said, they aren't very consistent on what exploits warrant bans and what don't (or even which bug abuse gets officially labeled "exploiting" by them), but I think that has to do with how widespread those are and how much they affect the game.
I imagine there's a lot more people aware of vMoL exploits (old content btw that doesn't have the same "prestige" anymore, lots of people have completed the hardmode) than the vAS hm exploit. Same goes for PvP exploits (e.g. Miats addon with 50k+ downloads abusing API bugs, teleporting into keeps, Double Mundus etc) - all too widespread to start banning people.Edited by DDuke on November 12, 2017 4:13PM0 -
Dixa✭✭✭As a partnered content creator on YouTube for 8 years I can tell you that Bethesda own the copyright on any gameplay video you do of their games unless it is wholly transformative in some way and does not show that much actual game content. They and many other companies are simply choosing to not enforce it as it is free publicity for them.
If this is indeed a topic you are interested in, you should follow leonard French on YouTube he is a copyright attorney who specializes in the games industry.
To bottom line it: the company had every right to remove it both legally and morally given the actual content and intent.Edited by Dixa on November 12, 2017 4:31PM0 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a partnered content creator on YouTube for 8 years I can tell you that Bethesda own the copyright on any gameplay video you do of their games unless it is wholly transformative in some way and does not show that much actual game content. They and many other companies are simply choosing to not enforce it as it is free publicity for them.
If this is indeed a topic you are interested in, you should follow leonard French on YouTube he is a copyright attorney who specializes in the games industry.
To bottom line it: the company had every right to remove it both legally and morally given the actual content and intent.
Yeah I get that, I was just thinking it was weird how they choose to remove this specific video yet let other videos demonstrating cheats and exploits. Buf I guess it's as Duke says because its a hot thing at the moment, rather than other exploits which have kinda come and gone.
I don't disagree with ZOS taking down the video, I just think they should be more consistent, which hopefully will be the case going forward0 -
Dixa✭✭✭They can hardly say on youtube "this video has been taken down for violating the ToS of ZoS / Bethesda."....Exploiting is against the ToS in any form.
This isn't concerning the ToS. It's about copyright, and the way ZOS picks and chooses what is and what isn't bannable with no logic or reason
If you are not seeing the logic in this claim you need to get your moral compass adjusted.2 -
Dixa✭✭✭They can hardly say on youtube "this video has been taken down for violating the ToS of ZoS / Bethesda."....Exploiting is against the ToS in any form.
This isn't concerning the ToS. It's about copyright, and the way ZOS picks and chooses what is and what isn't bannable with no logic or reason
I think there is logic behind what gets policed by them on youtube:
"Will this video's existence increase/decrease our revenue? Is it good or bad for the game?"
"If this copyright claim gets taken to court (very unlikely), can the uploader feasibly claim fair use - i.e. is there a chance of losing the law suit?"
If you were ZOS, those would probably be the two questions in your mind when deciding to hit someone with a copyright claim.
I don't find it logical for them to remove a video showcasing an exploit, yet keep up videos with 45,000 overall views showcasing how to exploit vMoL, how to gap close into keep, a streamer I reported who used shadow image to get people stuck in terrain unable to block or dodge your attacks, etc.
Considering they're actually banning people using the vAS hm exploit, there's a potential of monetary loss for Zenimax from the lost subscriptions. Every view that video gets & every person who decides to replicate it & use the exploit... You can see how that might quickly spiral out of control if the video was left untouched, especially if it went viral.
That said, they aren't very consistent on what exploits warrant bans and what don't (or even which bug abuse gets officially labeled "exploiting" by them), but I think that has to do with how widespread those are and how much they affect the game.
I imagine there's a lot more people aware of vMoL exploits (old content btw that doesn't have the same "prestige" anymore, lots of people have completed the hardmode) than the vAS hm exploit. Same goes for PvP exploits (e.g. Miats addon with 50k+ downloads abusing API bugs, teleporting into keeps, Double Mundus etc) - all too widespread to start banning people.
People were punished for the double mundus exploit. That however is not on the same level as this. None of what you listed is.1 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They can hardly say on youtube "this video has been taken down for violating the ToS of ZoS / Bethesda."....Exploiting is against the ToS in any form.
This isn't concerning the ToS. It's about copyright, and the way ZOS picks and chooses what is and what isn't bannable with no logic or reason
If you are not seeing the logic in this claim you need to get your moral compass adjusted.
I don't think it is logical to remove a video showcasing an exploit yet keep videos up which showcase other exploits.
Also my moral compas is fine thank you very much, since we are talking about a video game here. People are talking about the exploiting that happened like it actually affects them, which I find bizzare too. Maybe I'm just out of the loop...Edited by Voxicity on November 12, 2017 4:42PM0 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is the era of YouTube known as the "Adpocalyse", where companies are able to get certain content removed if it affects their interests. Not surprised it was taken down, but I am surprised how quickly it happened"If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."0 -
SisterGoat✭✭✭✭✭Technically, ZOS (or in this case Bethesda Softworks, the publisher) could slap a copyright claim on any ESO video out there not created by them.
But why would they? It's free advertising which helps the game. Posting an exploit that gets people banned isn't.
Trust me, gaming companies are the least of your worries when making youtube videos. Just wait until you decide to put some background music in your videos.............
*cough*AlexMauer*cough*Jumps-In-Water - Magicka Templar
Dar'akar - Stamina Nightblade
Jumps-In-Lava - Magicka Dragon Knight
PC/NA0
