Purge, debuffs and Templar

Ashamray · November 2017

irrelevant

Baconlad · November 2017

Nah man purify is fine. It does not in fact shut down dot builds. Im a magplar, and also considered a dot build. When a templar purges my dots, i recast. Dude cant keep purging forever. Like purifying light, i cast it, he purges, i immediatly recast it. Its a lot cheaper than purge.

Solariken · November 2017

My suggestion for a more reliable, well-balanced skill:

Base skill-
1. Remove all snares/roots on cast and provide 4s of immunity. (No other debuffs cleansed).
2. HoT that ticks every 2s and has synergy opportunity (same as current)

Morph additions:

Ritual of Retribution-
DoT that ticks every 2s over the duration (same as current).

Extended Ritual-
Remove 2 additional effects on cast. While standing in the Ritual circle, cleanse 1 negative effect every 2 seconds for the duration.

ak_pvp · November 2017

5 effects. 1 every 0.5s. Still removes them but takes damage in the mean time and discourages multiple uses too quick.

Join buffs good idea.

maxjapank · November 2017

Extended is fine as is. It only works for the caster. In group play, you'll likely see Efficient purge anyway. Efficient is much more powerful.

Ashamray · November 2017

I don't want to nerf Ritual in current meta, I just think it is pretty lame mechanic for templar to blockheal and purge in every *** situation. Would be glad if we have one more tool in our defensive arsenal since we definitely won't get any mobility, and in that case unnerfed purge would be too much.

Ashamray · November 2017

Solariken wrote: »

My suggestion for a more reliable, well-balanced skill:

Base skill-
1. Remove all snares/roots on cast and provide 4s of immunity. (No other debuffs cleansed).
2. HoT that ticks every 2s and has synergy opportunity (same as current)

Morph additions:

Ritual of Retribution-
DoT that ticks every 2s over the duration (same as current).

Extended Ritual-
Remove 2 additional effects on cast. While standing in the Ritual circle, cleanse 1 negative effect every 2 seconds for the duration.

I like it.

Joy_Division · November 2017

Unless I am not understanding your post, it sounds like you want to nerf Purifying Ritual.

You can't combine things like Minor magicka steal and major breech because they are two different debuffs and not always applied together. Siphon spirit applies magicka steal, not major Breech. Pierce armor applies Major breech and not magicka steal.

Yes, we can proc 4 debuffs with one GCD. Take Poison Injection + light weave (Siphoner, Injection DoT, Poisoned, Concussed for Shock Glyph). Or you can apply six by using an Alchemical Poison instead of a glyph.

When a player get hit with one of those fancy Asylum staff, let's count the number of debuffs: Siphoner, Burning, Chilled, Concussed, and probably diseased from glyph. On top of that an enemy Sorc is already has got a Curse and Fury active. If there is say a NB with a bow anywhere near you who has marked you (3 more debuffs), you're going to have at the least an Injection DoT, Poisoned, and likely an increase damage modifier. If you cast two Extended Rituals in that situation, you'll still be debuffed.

Do people realize how much the game and the debuffed system has changed since launch? Two debuffs used to be plenty. But since the 1.6 changes, they added whole system of generic major, minor debuffs available to anyone through the champion system, given us a ton of gear sets with various sorts of debuffs, introduced a dubious Alchemical poison system that can apply 3 debuffs all at once, and everyone who is in combat is pretty much always always going to be walking around with the siphoned debuffed.

Ritual of Retribution is practically worthless for anyone who PvPs becuase there are so many debuffs, Dots, and other associated negative status conditions because that is the way ZoS had developed the game since the 1.6 update and the introduction of the champion system. I don't even play a DoT or Debuff build, and within two GCDs, anyone who fights me is going to be hit with Structured Entropy DoT, Siphoned debuff, Sunfire DoT, Sunfire Snare, most likely will be Minor Maimed from attacking me, and probably diseased. That's already 6.

Purge does not shut down DoT builds and I wish people would stop just saying that. If you are a NB with a poison injection and I cleanse it, all you have to do is hit poison injection again. What am I going to do in that situation, cleanse it again? The templar will lose every time because the skill is too expensive, does nothing to the enemy, and surrenders initiative, and all this time the templar is still taking incoming damage. I fight templars all the time and when they cleanse, within 2 GCDs they are right back to having 6 debuffs on them. Hell, if they take the ritual of Retribution morph it isn;t even necessary to reapply your DoTs because they probably not cleansed in the first place. To say that templars are immune to dots and debuffs or they automatically shut them down is equivalent to saying NBs shut down ranged builds because they can get de-target every ranged attack in the game by hitting Cloak. They would never stand for such an exaggeration so I have no idea why we templars not only allow other classes to misrepresent us, but we encourage them to do it.

I get the sense that perhaps you think Purify ought to be reformed and perhaps are just making a nod to loosely referring its power to placate the mobs of non-templars who think it's so OP (but if it is, along with OP Bol and OP Jesus beams, why aren't templars OP?), but the value of purge is easily countered in today's ESO when I can put 4 or even 6 debuffs on a player with a single global cooldown.

I do agree with you about Blinding Flashes. Radiant Destruction is garbage now and I'd much rather have flashes.

Joy_Division · November 2017

Solariken wrote: »

My suggestion for a more reliable, well-balanced skill:

Base skill-
1. Remove all snares/roots on cast and provide 4s of immunity. (No other debuffs cleansed).
2. HoT that ticks every 2s and has synergy opportunity (same as current)

Morph additions:

Ritual of Retribution-
DoT that ticks every 2s over the duration (same as current).

Extended Ritual-
Remove 2 additional effects on cast. While standing in the Ritual circle, cleanse 1 negative effect every 2 seconds for the duration.

That removes 1 negative effect every 2 seconds. But you canreceive 4 negative effects every second from just a single enemy player. That proposal would just turn Purify into a weak HoT that grants 4 seconds of snare respite.

I don't think it is appreicated just how many debuffs and negative effects are out there or how easily they are applied.

As it is take Siphoner. Every single time you are hit with a weaved attack, you've got this debuff. You'd never get rid of any other debuffs with this version of ritual because Siphoner would get reapplied long before two seconds come up to remove another debuff.

Ashamray · November 2017

@Joy_Division
Maybe it's impossible due to code, but I do think that reducing amount of debuffs is healthy. I try to describe.
I see it like a "tree". You cast a spell which applies several effects, but all of them are in the "main" one, so they are connected to it like branches to the stem. If you purging, priority of purge goes to the main stem, deleting all his branches.

I don't claim DoT builds are fully countered by templar, cos It's obviously not. I claim that constant re-applying of debuffs or recasting of Ritual again and again is annoying gameplay which sometimes leads to rage whispers and insults. For what? For mechanic designed by zos.
That is a tactical using of Ritual, not the one from developer's comment under the Ritual recent nerf. There can't be tactical Ritual in current system - only spam.

As a Templar I want to be untied to Extended Ritual, that's why I reminded of good old Blinding Flashes, but having one more cool defensive tool will mostly benefit dedicated healers, and they don't deserve a buff, in my opinion.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

Hello.

My main is a PvP Templar and since launch I have been watching this buff'n'debuff bacchanalia. Buff system was changed in the past, and now we have pretty simple categories BUT addons actually show you all this trash of numerous effects. Moreover, here we have a Templar paradox:

1) Ritual (5 negatives effects removal) cripples the whole point of DoT builds and debuffers.
2) You can cast even 2 Rituals in a row and still be standing in god damned roots because of trashy debuffs on you.

Here is a GIF where I procc 4 effects with 1 gcd. Earlier it was even 5, I don't know when the changes came.
I think it's a bit broken. My proposals are:
Extended Ritual removes 3 effects instead of 5

Several effects in one spell = one debuff with corresponding name. For example, Elemental Drain currently applies Major Breach and Minor Magicka steal. I suggest them both be one single group of 2 different debuffs - just one Elemental Drain.

Now hidden BUFFTEMPLAR thing - think again about Blinding Flashes tool, dear devs.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_GinaBruno

This is a horrible assessment. Templar has 1 cc in the form of knockback and you want to take away even more? I am already sick of what they've done to Templars on so many levels. What the hell do you want them to do? Get a bulldozer and pile more dirt on the grave?

Blinding Flashes would be nice - but recommending nerfs when the class just needs major repair isn't too helpful. Templar may have its uses as a burst damage character but it has the worst sustain of any class (Stamplar) and a very rigid build (Magplar). Templar lost its soul, which is why we're all vampires now. I'm sorry I find it hard to be constructive about Templar any more. This class has always been my stylistic favorite but I'm learning to hate this class.

Ashamray · November 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Hello.

My main is a PvP Templar and since launch I have been watching this buff'n'debuff bacchanalia. Buff system was changed in the past, and now we have pretty simple categories BUT addons actually show you all this trash of numerous effects. Moreover, here we have a Templar paradox:

1) Ritual (5 negatives effects removal) cripples the whole point of DoT builds and debuffers.
2) You can cast even 2 Rituals in a row and still be standing in god damned roots because of trashy debuffs on you.

Here is a GIF where I procc 4 effects with 1 gcd. Earlier it was even 5, I don't know when the changes came.
I think it's a bit broken. My proposals are:
Extended Ritual removes 3 effects instead of 5

Several effects in one spell = one debuff with corresponding name. For example, Elemental Drain currently applies Major Breach and Minor Magicka steal. I suggest them both be one single group of 2 different debuffs - just one Elemental Drain.

Now hidden BUFFTEMPLAR thing - think again about Blinding Flashes tool, dear devs.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_GinaBruno

This is a horrible assessment. Templar has 1 cc in the form of knockback and you want to take away even more? I am already sick of what they've done to Templars on so many levels. What the hell do you want them to do? Get a bulldozer and pile more dirt on the grave?

Blinding Flashes would be nice - but recommending nerfs when the class just needs major repair isn't too helpful. Templar may have its uses as a burst damage character but it has the worst sustain of any class (Stamplar) and a very rigid build (Magplar). Templar lost its soul, which is why we're all vampires now. I'm sorry I find it hard to be constructive about Templar any more. This class has always been my stylistic favorite but I'm learning to hate this class.

I'm not sure you read my post accurately. Why do you write about CC?

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Hello.

My main is a PvP Templar and since launch I have been watching this buff'n'debuff bacchanalia. Buff system was changed in the past, and now we have pretty simple categories BUT addons actually show you all this trash of numerous effects. Moreover, here we have a Templar paradox:

1) Ritual (5 negatives effects removal) cripples the whole point of DoT builds and debuffers.
2) You can cast even 2 Rituals in a row and still be standing in god damned roots because of trashy debuffs on you.

Here is a GIF where I procc 4 effects with 1 gcd. Earlier it was even 5, I don't know when the changes came.
I think it's a bit broken. My proposals are:
Extended Ritual removes 3 effects instead of 5

Several effects in one spell = one debuff with corresponding name. For example, Elemental Drain currently applies Major Breach and Minor Magicka steal. I suggest them both be one single group of 2 different debuffs - just one Elemental Drain.

Now hidden BUFFTEMPLAR thing - think again about Blinding Flashes tool, dear devs.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_GinaBruno

This is a horrible assessment. Templar has 1 cc in the form of knockback and you want to take away even more? I am already sick of what they've done to Templars on so many levels. What the hell do you want them to do? Get a bulldozer and pile more dirt on the grave?

Blinding Flashes would be nice - but recommending nerfs when the class just needs major repair isn't too helpful. Templar may have its uses as a burst damage character but it has the worst sustain of any class (Stamplar) and a very rigid build (Magplar). Templar lost its soul, which is why we're all vampires now. I'm sorry I find it hard to be constructive about Templar any more. This class has always been my stylistic favorite but I'm learning to hate this class.

I'm not sure you read my post accurately. Why do you write about CC?

I am writing about CC specifically because Templar has none. What makes Templar unique is its capacity to buff and debuff. The Templar is supposed to be a sluggish mobile-home that wanders around buffing, debuffing, and healing. That's how the class has been shifted under Wrobel. In Beta/Alpha the class was a tanky high regenerating healer/warrior. Its just not the same class. Everyone [snip] about damage output on Templar and they ruined my Tank build 3 times over. I'm appreciative that you mentioned Blinding Flashes but I have my doubts they'll add it in after they wreck the class.

If the class is designed with buff/debuff in mind and soft cc in the form of snares and knockback that is part of the class design. We lack mobility but we are meant to punish people getting in our sphere of influence. In a class without CC do you really think we're going to do any punishing if we also have no debuff and cleanse? As a Stamplar nowadays its all about being a death rocket (the tanky warrior is gone) and as a Magplar its still the same heal and heal some more followed by some jabbing and radianting at the end. I think @Joy_Division is right in mentioning how other classes can pile massive amounts of debuff in one second as well. The Cleanse is a major part of Templar defense and if you wreck that they seriously need to bring up the class in other areas. My Templar is a second-string character of mine at best and I use to be a die-hard Templar. I can barely stand what they've done to it now. I appreciate that you want them to fix the class but the problem is you're attacking the basic design that Wrobel has laid out for the class the last 2 years. I'm not sure the changes you recommend are going to go over as well as you like. Blazing Shield is a pale reminder of its former self. Balanced Warrior is easily replicated by other classes with better recovery now. The self heal of Templar is still really stupid and heals other people - not very good if you want to be a tank, meanwhile the class passives are geared around healing. The way the passives and damage skills are designed it forces you to ignore a number of passives or jab jab jab. I could go on. Lets face it as well, the Major Defile you get from Templar isn't that amazing and still falls prey to a wind up that almost anyone can avoid if they're breathing and their eyes are open.

Eclipse is back to being a garbage skill again and for what purpose? Who uses this thing any more? I'm sorry if I'm bringing sour feelings to the forum but I've been getting progressively more angry about Templar class and I don't want to do that. There is a reason that I didn't even load up the forums for a while. Part of it was real life and part of it was my desire not to complain about this class.

I realize the concern about damage over time builds but even the damage over time builds don't have much to worry about here by Templar cleansing. These builds layer burst along with DOT and simultaneously they ALL have significant levels of CC that a Templar does not have access to. I'm just not convinced this is a problem with the class when literally the best defense Templar has is its ritual. If you take this away they're going to have to really take a look at a complete redesign of the whole class. This might not be an awful thing but it makes me nervous.

Ashamray · November 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Hello.

My main is a PvP Templar and since launch I have been watching this buff'n'debuff bacchanalia. Buff system was changed in the past, and now we have pretty simple categories BUT addons actually show you all this trash of numerous effects. Moreover, here we have a Templar paradox:

1) Ritual (5 negatives effects removal) cripples the whole point of DoT builds and debuffers.
2) You can cast even 2 Rituals in a row and still be standing in god damned roots because of trashy debuffs on you.

Here is a GIF where I procc 4 effects with 1 gcd. Earlier it was even 5, I don't know when the changes came.
I think it's a bit broken. My proposals are:
Extended Ritual removes 3 effects instead of 5

Several effects in one spell = one debuff with corresponding name. For example, Elemental Drain currently applies Major Breach and Minor Magicka steal. I suggest them both be one single group of 2 different debuffs - just one Elemental Drain.

Now hidden BUFFTEMPLAR thing - think again about Blinding Flashes tool, dear devs.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_GinaBruno

This is a horrible assessment. Templar has 1 cc in the form of knockback and you want to take away even more? I am already sick of what they've done to Templars on so many levels. What the hell do you want them to do? Get a bulldozer and pile more dirt on the grave?

Blinding Flashes would be nice - but recommending nerfs when the class just needs major repair isn't too helpful. Templar may have its uses as a burst damage character but it has the worst sustain of any class (Stamplar) and a very rigid build (Magplar). Templar lost its soul, which is why we're all vampires now. I'm sorry I find it hard to be constructive about Templar any more. This class has always been my stylistic favorite but I'm learning to hate this class.

I'm not sure you read my post accurately. Why do you write about CC?

I am writing about CC specifically because Templar has none. What makes Templar unique is its capacity to buff and debuff. The Templar is supposed to be a sluggish mobile-home that wanders around buffing, debuffing, and healing. That's how the class has been shifted under Wrobel. In Beta/Alpha the class was a tanky high regenerating healer/warrior. Its just not the same class. Everyone [snip] about damage output on Templar and they ruined my Tank build 3 times over. I'm appreciative that you mentioned Blinding Flashes but I have my doubts they'll add it in after they wreck the class.

If the class is designed with buff/debuff in mind and soft cc in the form of snares and knockback that is part of the class design. We lack mobility but we are meant to punish people getting in our sphere of influence. In a class without CC do you really think we're going to do any punishing if we also have no debuff and cleanse? As a Stamplar nowadays its all about being a death rocket (the tanky warrior is gone) and as a Magplar its still the same heal and heal some more followed by some jabbing and radianting at the end. I think @Joy_Division is right in mentioning how other classes can pile massive amounts of debuff in one second as well. The Cleanse is a major part of Templar defense and if you wreck that they seriously need to bring up the class in other areas. My Templar is a second-string character of mine at best and I use to be a die-hard Templar. I can barely stand what they've done to it now. I appreciate that you want them to fix the class but the problem is you're attacking the basic design that Wrobel has laid out for the class the last 2 years. I'm not sure the changes you recommend are going to go over as well as you like. Blazing Shield is a pale reminder of its former self. Balanced Warrior is easily replicated by other classes with better recovery now. The self heal of Templar is still really stupid and heals other people - not very good if you want to be a tank, meanwhile the class passives are geared around healing. The way the passives and damage skills are designed it forces you to ignore a number of passives or jab jab jab. I could go on. Lets face it as well, the Major Defile you get from Templar isn't that amazing and still falls prey to a wind up that almost anyone can avoid if they're breathing and their eyes are open.

Eclipse is back to being a garbage skill again and for what purpose? Who uses this thing any more? I'm sorry if I'm bringing sour feelings to the forum but I've been getting progressively more angry about Templar class and I don't want to do that. There is a reason that I didn't even load up the forums for a while. Part of it was real life and part of it was my desire not to complain about this class.

I realize the concern about damage over time builds but even the damage over time builds don't have much to worry about here by Templar cleansing. These builds layer burst along with DOT and simultaneously they ALL have significant levels of CC that a Templar does not have access to. I'm just not convinced this is a problem with the class when literally the best defense Templar has is its ritual. If you take this away they're going to have to really take a look at a complete redesign of the whole class. This might not be an awful thing but it makes me nervous.

if you enjoy playing cleanse-debuff spamfest, that's your point. I do not, and this is mine.
Lack of CC will always be a templar feature, I'm sure about this. And yes, Eslipse is pretty usable now, moreover, you can bug it into oblivion and keep it on immune target.
Look, no one want even more nerfs. My main problem is here:

I claim that constant re-applying of debuffs or recasting of Ritual again and again is annoying gameplay which sometimes leads to rage whispers and insults. For what? For mechanic designed by zos.

If they redo debuff system, Extended Ritual will be almost OP. If they don't - it stays just a strong ability.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Hello.

My main is a PvP Templar and since launch I have been watching this buff'n'debuff bacchanalia. Buff system was changed in the past, and now we have pretty simple categories BUT addons actually show you all this trash of numerous effects. Moreover, here we have a Templar paradox:

1) Ritual (5 negatives effects removal) cripples the whole point of DoT builds and debuffers.
2) You can cast even 2 Rituals in a row and still be standing in god damned roots because of trashy debuffs on you.

Here is a GIF where I procc 4 effects with 1 gcd. Earlier it was even 5, I don't know when the changes came.
I think it's a bit broken. My proposals are:
Extended Ritual removes 3 effects instead of 5

Several effects in one spell = one debuff with corresponding name. For example, Elemental Drain currently applies Major Breach and Minor Magicka steal. I suggest them both be one single group of 2 different debuffs - just one Elemental Drain.

Now hidden BUFFTEMPLAR thing - think again about Blinding Flashes tool, dear devs.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_GinaBruno

This is a horrible assessment. Templar has 1 cc in the form of knockback and you want to take away even more? I am already sick of what they've done to Templars on so many levels. What the hell do you want them to do? Get a bulldozer and pile more dirt on the grave?

Blinding Flashes would be nice - but recommending nerfs when the class just needs major repair isn't too helpful. Templar may have its uses as a burst damage character but it has the worst sustain of any class (Stamplar) and a very rigid build (Magplar). Templar lost its soul, which is why we're all vampires now. I'm sorry I find it hard to be constructive about Templar any more. This class has always been my stylistic favorite but I'm learning to hate this class.

I'm not sure you read my post accurately. Why do you write about CC?

I am writing about CC specifically because Templar has none. What makes Templar unique is its capacity to buff and debuff. The Templar is supposed to be a sluggish mobile-home that wanders around buffing, debuffing, and healing. That's how the class has been shifted under Wrobel. In Beta/Alpha the class was a tanky high regenerating healer/warrior. Its just not the same class. Everyone [snip] about damage output on Templar and they ruined my Tank build 3 times over. I'm appreciative that you mentioned Blinding Flashes but I have my doubts they'll add it in after they wreck the class.

If the class is designed with buff/debuff in mind and soft cc in the form of snares and knockback that is part of the class design. We lack mobility but we are meant to punish people getting in our sphere of influence. In a class without CC do you really think we're going to do any punishing if we also have no debuff and cleanse? As a Stamplar nowadays its all about being a death rocket (the tanky warrior is gone) and as a Magplar its still the same heal and heal some more followed by some jabbing and radianting at the end. I think @Joy_Division is right in mentioning how other classes can pile massive amounts of debuff in one second as well. The Cleanse is a major part of Templar defense and if you wreck that they seriously need to bring up the class in other areas. My Templar is a second-string character of mine at best and I use to be a die-hard Templar. I can barely stand what they've done to it now. I appreciate that you want them to fix the class but the problem is you're attacking the basic design that Wrobel has laid out for the class the last 2 years. I'm not sure the changes you recommend are going to go over as well as you like. Blazing Shield is a pale reminder of its former self. Balanced Warrior is easily replicated by other classes with better recovery now. The self heal of Templar is still really stupid and heals other people - not very good if you want to be a tank, meanwhile the class passives are geared around healing. The way the passives and damage skills are designed it forces you to ignore a number of passives or jab jab jab. I could go on. Lets face it as well, the Major Defile you get from Templar isn't that amazing and still falls prey to a wind up that almost anyone can avoid if they're breathing and their eyes are open.

Eclipse is back to being a garbage skill again and for what purpose? Who uses this thing any more? I'm sorry if I'm bringing sour feelings to the forum but I've been getting progressively more angry about Templar class and I don't want to do that. There is a reason that I didn't even load up the forums for a while. Part of it was real life and part of it was my desire not to complain about this class.

I realize the concern about damage over time builds but even the damage over time builds don't have much to worry about here by Templar cleansing. These builds layer burst along with DOT and simultaneously they ALL have significant levels of CC that a Templar does not have access to. I'm just not convinced this is a problem with the class when literally the best defense Templar has is its ritual. If you take this away they're going to have to really take a look at a complete redesign of the whole class. This might not be an awful thing but it makes me nervous.

if you enjoy playing cleanse-debuff spamfest, that's your point. I do not, and this is mine.
Lack of CC will always be a templar feature, I'm sure about this. And yes, Eslipse is pretty usable now, moreover, you can bug it into oblivion and keep it on immune target.
Look, no one want even more nerfs. My main problem is here:

I claim that constant re-applying of debuffs or recasting of Ritual again and again is annoying gameplay which sometimes leads to rage whispers and insults. For what? For mechanic designed by zos.

If they redo debuff system, Extended Ritual will be almost OP. If they don't - it stays just a strong ability.

I ignore those kinds of weak-willed jelly-brained insults from people. Usually you can assess the fight and throw equal complaints back. The game is designed the way its designed and people shouldn't call you a moron for playing your class the way its meant to be played. If they don't like it they can take it up with ZoS, or play the class themselves if they think its so good. Stamplar has the worst sustain in the game so when I get complaints I'm pretty brutal about my insults back to the knuckle-draggers who open their ***-mouths.

I personally want my Templar Tank back. I want our CC back. You can be happy that our class 'will never' have cc back. Magplars can continue to be happy living their heal-fest. I want the rest of the class to be fun again. Blinding Flashes as you offer it might be a start in the right direction but it would only be a start.

Minno · November 2017

What your are describing is the counter to purge; debuff overload. And in what cases is purge over performing?

In order for purge to take a Nerf we need the following:
- radiant ward to scale of mag. Blazing shield nerf removed but still scale off health.
- cost reduction for some of our base skill costs
- jabs healing nerf to be reversed since our major mending was removed.
- mobilty to be added to the Templar through snare removal or major expedition.
- repentance to receive a makeover similar to NB changes this patch.
- total dark/UC to receive an additional effect or buff (especially total dark that has no functionality after cc immunity is granted)
- solar barrage to be instant cast
- return an AOE cc that other classes still have.

Because purge serves not as a dot debuff but. An immobilze removal. In effect they designed it to be our mobilty because the Templar was designed to protect his "house". But any nerf to purge requires a huge buff to other abilities to compensate for our class identity being stripped.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

My suggestion for a more reliable, well-balanced skill:

Base skill-
1. Remove all snares/roots on cast and provide 4s of immunity. (No other debuffs cleansed).
2. HoT that ticks every 2s and has synergy opportunity (same as current)

Morph additions:

Ritual of Retribution-
DoT that ticks every 2s over the duration (same as current).

Extended Ritual-
Remove 2 additional effects on cast. While standing in the Ritual circle, cleanse 1 negative effect every 2 seconds for the duration.

That removes 1 negative effect every 2 seconds. But you canreceive 4 negative effects every second from just a single enemy player. That proposal would just turn Purify into a weak HoT that grants 4 seconds of snare respite.

I don't think it is appreicated just how many debuffs and negative effects are out there or how easily they are applied.

As it is take Siphoner. Every single time you are hit with a weaved attack, you've got this debuff. You'd never get rid of any other debuffs with this version of ritual because Siphoner would get reapplied long before two seconds come up to remove another debuff.

That's why efficient pirge is better. It will cut debuffs in half, but it's not for all builds.

I wish we had more defensive options or the ability to move.

Ashamray · November 2017

Minno wrote: »

What your are describing is the counter to purge; debuff overload. And in what cases is purge over performing?

In order for purge to take a Nerf we need the following:
- radiant ward to scale of mag. Blazing shield nerf removed but still scale off health.
- cost reduction for some of our base skill costs
- jabs healing nerf to be reversed since our major mending was removed.
- mobilty to be added to the Templar through snare removal or major expedition.
- repentance to receive a makeover similar to NB changes this patch.
- total dark/UC to receive an additional effect or buff (especially total dark that has no functionality after cc immunity is granted)
- solar barrage to be instant cast
- return an AOE cc that other classes still have.

Because purge serves not as a dot debuff but. An immobilze removal. In effect they designed it to be our mobilty because the Templar was designed to protect his "house". But any nerf to purge requires a huge buff to other abilities to compensate for our class identity being stripped.

Fair enough. That's why I wrote about Blinding Flashes. Instead of adjusting a ton of skills which won't happen, they can bring back a really powerful blinding debuff and adapt it.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

What your are describing is the counter to purge; debuff overload. And in what cases is purge over performing?

In order for purge to take a Nerf we need the following:
- radiant ward to scale of mag. Blazing shield nerf removed but still scale off health.
- cost reduction for some of our base skill costs
- jabs healing nerf to be reversed since our major mending was removed.
- mobilty to be added to the Templar through snare removal or major expedition.
- repentance to receive a makeover similar to NB changes this patch.
- total dark/UC to receive an additional effect or buff (especially total dark that has no functionality after cc immunity is granted)
- solar barrage to be instant cast
- return an AOE cc that other classes still have.

Because purge serves not as a dot debuff but. An immobilze removal. In effect they designed it to be our mobilty because the Templar was designed to protect his "house". But any nerf to purge requires a huge buff to other abilities to compensate for our class identity being stripped.

Fair enough. That's why I wrote about Blinding Flashes. Instead of adjusting a ton of skills which won't happen, they can bring back a really powerful blinding debuff and adapt it.

The Blinding Flashes comment you had was the only part I agreed with. I think @Minno generally gets the point of what bothers me about Templar. I enjoy my Magplar but lets face it I started this game with a Knight in mind which means Tank or Stamplar build. Magplar also has its problems in design as well.

I would love to see the Ward options as Minno describes. More choice is good. I would love to see severe cost reduction and regeneration in our skills. Repentance is an affront to Stamplars everywhere and while I use to enjoy teaming with friends it now makes me (not so) secretly hate teaming with them. Solar Barrage is just an insult when you compare to other classes with similar 'aura-damage' type powers. Solar Barrage might actually be even worse than what it use to be and that's amazing. The whole Templar class is slow windups, long cast times, channels and easy telegraphs. Getting rid of the cleanse won't change that fact.

Minno · November 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

What your are describing is the counter to purge; debuff overload. And in what cases is purge over performing?

In order for purge to take a Nerf we need the following:
- radiant ward to scale of mag. Blazing shield nerf removed but still scale off health.
- cost reduction for some of our base skill costs
- jabs healing nerf to be reversed since our major mending was removed.
- mobilty to be added to the Templar through snare removal or major expedition.
- repentance to receive a makeover similar to NB changes this patch.
- total dark/UC to receive an additional effect or buff (especially total dark that has no functionality after cc immunity is granted)
- solar barrage to be instant cast
- return an AOE cc that other classes still have.

Because purge serves not as a dot debuff but. An immobilze removal. In effect they designed it to be our mobilty because the Templar was designed to protect his "house". But any nerf to purge requires a huge buff to other abilities to compensate for our class identity being stripped.

Fair enough. That's why I wrote about Blinding Flashes. Instead of adjusting a ton of skills which won't happen, they can bring back a really powerful blinding debuff and adapt it.

The Blinding Flashes comment you had was the only part I agreed with. I think @Minno generally gets the point of what bothers me about Templar. I enjoy my Magplar but lets face it I started this game with a Knight in mind which means Tank or Stamplar build. Magplar also has its problems in design as well.

I would love to see the Ward options as Minno describes. More choice is good. I would love to see severe cost reduction and regeneration in our skills. Repentance is an affront to Stamplars everywhere and while I use to enjoy teaming with friends it now makes me (not so) secretly hate teaming with them. Solar Barrage is just an insult when you compare to other classes with similar 'aura-damage' type powers. Solar Barrage might actually be even worse than what it use to be and that's amazing. The whole Templar class is slow windups, long cast times, channels and easy telegraphs. Getting rid of the cleanse won't change that fact.

It's just frustrating. We don't have mobilty because we had a strong AOE cc, strong healing buffs and our class was designed to use Stam/mag stats back when we could be hybrids.

But now, we don't have major mending, we lost blinding flashes for a ranged execute that was nerfed a few times, and in order to fill Stam/mag builds some strong morphs are given to one or the other without compensation.

If we aren't going to get mending back or an strong as or cc, we need mobilty and a interesting one. Same goes for DKs, but at least they still have their AOE cc.

UppGRAYxDD · November 2017

Hey hey now, don't talk about Templars too much or they ll catch another nerf...

Waffennacht · November 2017

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Hey hey now, don't talk about Templars too much or they ll catch another nerf...

Lol, are Sorcs OP?
Are Wardens OP?
Are Templars OP?
Are Nightblades OP?

There's a thread on each lmao

Solariken · November 2017

@Joy_Division you definitely aren't wrong about the proliferation of debuffs over the game's development. However, many debuffs are completely manageable without cleanse spam. The problem, as @Ashamray outlined, is that there is no prioritization and roots/snares are the most important debuffs to deal with. I hate having to spam Ritual 3 times to get my mobility back when most of the debuffs are trash I don't care about.

My suggestion above actually results in a net gain in debuff removal per cast, but places a premium on mobility debuffs while leaving some space for DOT builds to DPS you. It also unties magplar from blocktard turtling which everyone hates.

I also agree with @Minno that of course a change to Ritual shouldn't be made in a vacuum and might need to be accompanied by other adjustments to the class.

Skander · November 2017

NO why?

Purge costs a ton. A TON, before and after it's cost increase

So, you CAN'T spam it, becouse you will die.

It's perfectly fine as it is now.

Joy_Division · November 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

@Joy_Division
Maybe it's impossible due to code, but I do think that reducing amount of debuffs is healthy. I try to describe.
I see it like a "tree". You cast a spell which applies several effects, but all of them are in the "main" one, so they are connected to it like branches to the stem. If you purging, priority of purge goes to the main stem, deleting all his branches.

I don't claim DoT builds are fully countered by templar, cos It's obviously not. I claim that constant re-applying of debuffs or recasting of Ritual again and again is annoying gameplay which sometimes leads to rage whispers and insults. For what? For mechanic designed by zos.
That is a tactical using of Ritual, not the one from developer's comment under the Ritual recent nerf. There can't be tactical Ritual in current system - only spam.

As a Templar I want to be untied to Extended Ritual, that's why I reminded of good old Blinding Flashes, but having one more cool defensive tool will mostly benefit dedicated healers, and they don't deserve a buff, in my opinion.

@Ashamray - I think all of us would welcome reducing the amount of debuffs, but to use your analogy, there are too many branches and you can;t consolidate them all.

Just to take myself, and I am not a DoT/Debuff build. In just 5 seconds of gameplay, my opponents will likely have:

Structured Entropy Dot - already at base stem
Eclipse - Probably already at base stem (see below)
Unstable Core bomb - it's not coupled with Eclipse because they are applied under different conditions (you can have the bomb, but not be Eclipsed)
Minor Main from Wizard's Riposte - already at base stem
Sunfire DoT - can be stemmed with
Sunfire Snare
Siphoner debuff from Champion system - already at base stem
Diseseased from Foulness glyph - already at base stem
Burning - already at base stem

That's 9 DoTs. Even if we count the Eclipse debuffs as part of the same branch, that's 7 debuffs suffered from fighting someone who does not even try to DoT or debuff an opponent. It's just build into the fabric of the game.

There isn't really constantly applying debuffs, or at least it's not intentional. Just in the nature of fighting they accumulate because those are the side effects that ZoS coded into them. I use structured entropy because I want major sorcery. Burning just happens to come because my DoT is fire damage. Siphoner just happens because it's ZoS solution to infinite resources. Minor Maim happens because ZoS didn't code the armor as a flat damage reduction. Eclipse is what it is because ZoS doesn;t want to give templars a true reflect. I'd imagine most players have build like mine, DoTs and debuffs accumulate quickly even though we don't really put an effort into them.

The other 4 classes in the game do just fine and they cant purge DoTs or debuffs. Think about that again: the other 4 classes in the game do just fine without having our supposedly OP tool (which doesn't make us OP compared to those 4 classes). If you want to untie yourself from the skill, then simply don't run it. It's kind of pointless to run in the first place if you fight an opponent who just through the natural course of fighting and not even trying is going to put upwards of 9 DoTs on you in a few seconds. I only use this skill for two reasons: purging defile (alternatively, Templars run harness magicka instead of relying on pure healing) and it's a way to get the ultimate buff by passively healing people who have ranged attacks (alternatively I could run a staff).

I do agree with you that it would be desirable for templars to cut the cord or get rid of the training wheels to extended ritual. But I'm not sure how many of us even tried. We are told by other classes this skill is super OP (even though they manged to beat us without using it) so we just put it on a bars because that's what templars are supposed to do. If you want Zos to help out with the mechanics, again I agree, but DoTs and debuffs are just a natural byproduct of the combat system they developed and it's not going anywhere. Retuning or making our old skills useful like blinding flashes and sun shield is by far the easiest solution.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2017

Minno wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

What your are describing is the counter to purge; debuff overload. And in what cases is purge over performing?

In order for purge to take a Nerf we need the following:
- radiant ward to scale of mag. Blazing shield nerf removed but still scale off health.
- cost reduction for some of our base skill costs
- jabs healing nerf to be reversed since our major mending was removed.
- mobilty to be added to the Templar through snare removal or major expedition.
- repentance to receive a makeover similar to NB changes this patch.
- total dark/UC to receive an additional effect or buff (especially total dark that has no functionality after cc immunity is granted)
- solar barrage to be instant cast
- return an AOE cc that other classes still have.

Because purge serves not as a dot debuff but. An immobilze removal. In effect they designed it to be our mobilty because the Templar was designed to protect his "house". But any nerf to purge requires a huge buff to other abilities to compensate for our class identity being stripped.

Fair enough. That's why I wrote about Blinding Flashes. Instead of adjusting a ton of skills which won't happen, they can bring back a really powerful blinding debuff and adapt it.

The Blinding Flashes comment you had was the only part I agreed with. I think @Minno generally gets the point of what bothers me about Templar. I enjoy my Magplar but lets face it I started this game with a Knight in mind which means Tank or Stamplar build. Magplar also has its problems in design as well.

I would love to see the Ward options as Minno describes. More choice is good. I would love to see severe cost reduction and regeneration in our skills. Repentance is an affront to Stamplars everywhere and while I use to enjoy teaming with friends it now makes me (not so) secretly hate teaming with them. Solar Barrage is just an insult when you compare to other classes with similar 'aura-damage' type powers. Solar Barrage might actually be even worse than what it use to be and that's amazing. The whole Templar class is slow windups, long cast times, channels and easy telegraphs. Getting rid of the cleanse won't change that fact.

It's just frustrating. We don't have mobilty because we had a strong AOE cc, strong healing buffs and our class was designed to use Stam/mag stats back when we could be hybrids.

But now, we don't have major mending, we lost blinding flashes for a ranged execute that was nerfed a few times, and in order to fill Stam/mag builds some strong morphs are given to one or the other without compensation.

If we aren't going to get mending back or an strong as or cc, we need mobilty and a interesting one. Same goes for DKs, but at least they still have their AOE cc.

There's another forum thread going on where the fellow is irritated about DK lack of mobility and 'no other class has mobility problems'. I had to at least make the point that Templars fall in this category and at the least DK has CC to make up for it. I neglected to mention that DK's have the best CC in the game. I still feel for the guy's point though with regard to StamDragons.

Minno · November 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

What your are describing is the counter to purge; debuff overload. And in what cases is purge over performing?

In order for purge to take a Nerf we need the following:
- radiant ward to scale of mag. Blazing shield nerf removed but still scale off health.
- cost reduction for some of our base skill costs
- jabs healing nerf to be reversed since our major mending was removed.
- mobilty to be added to the Templar through snare removal or major expedition.
- repentance to receive a makeover similar to NB changes this patch.
- total dark/UC to receive an additional effect or buff (especially total dark that has no functionality after cc immunity is granted)
- solar barrage to be instant cast
- return an AOE cc that other classes still have.

Because purge serves not as a dot debuff but. An immobilze removal. In effect they designed it to be our mobilty because the Templar was designed to protect his "house". But any nerf to purge requires a huge buff to other abilities to compensate for our class identity being stripped.

Fair enough. That's why I wrote about Blinding Flashes. Instead of adjusting a ton of skills which won't happen, they can bring back a really powerful blinding debuff and adapt it.

The Blinding Flashes comment you had was the only part I agreed with. I think @Minno generally gets the point of what bothers me about Templar. I enjoy my Magplar but lets face it I started this game with a Knight in mind which means Tank or Stamplar build. Magplar also has its problems in design as well.

I would love to see the Ward options as Minno describes. More choice is good. I would love to see severe cost reduction and regeneration in our skills. Repentance is an affront to Stamplars everywhere and while I use to enjoy teaming with friends it now makes me (not so) secretly hate teaming with them. Solar Barrage is just an insult when you compare to other classes with similar 'aura-damage' type powers. Solar Barrage might actually be even worse than what it use to be and that's amazing. The whole Templar class is slow windups, long cast times, channels and easy telegraphs. Getting rid of the cleanse won't change that fact.

It's just frustrating. We don't have mobilty because we had a strong AOE cc, strong healing buffs and our class was designed to use Stam/mag stats back when we could be hybrids.

But now, we don't have major mending, we lost blinding flashes for a ranged execute that was nerfed a few times, and in order to fill Stam/mag builds some strong morphs are given to one or the other without compensation.

If we aren't going to get mending back or an strong as or cc, we need mobilty and a interesting one. Same goes for DKs, but at least they still have their AOE cc.

There's another forum thread going on where the fellow is irritated about DK lack of mobility and 'no other class has mobility problems'. I had to at least make the point that Templars fall in this category and at the least DK has CC to make up for it. I neglected to mention that DK's have the best CC in the game. I still feel for the guy's point though with regard to StamDragons.

If DK chains reliability can't be fixed, then they should get snare removal.

Templar should get snare removal tied into explosive charge.