Soul Assault needs counterplay

Minno · November 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Once again the cry babies start on the nerfs.

They never go with "buff this for counter play" its always the tears and the nerf, and zos listens. These are the people who have made ESO pvp a zergging pug fest.

Yes I'm such a cry baby because all it requires to win a fight against a medium armor player is to activate your Soul Assault. God forbid we make it so some intelligence is required to be victorious.

How do you think Magicka builds feel about Shuffle?

Its frustrating as hell gap closing a Shuffle user (and them passively dodging it and its CC), and unloading Puncturing Sweeps on them only to have atleast 2 of the Sweeps fail to connect...

In the mean while, every single attack the Shuffle user uses against you lands flush...

The way I see it, we use Soul Assault to counter the cheesy gameplay Medium Armor users bring to the table...

Afterall, the best way to counter cheese is with cheese of your own...

Ayyyyy, if you can't aim undodgeable Jabs let's blame Shuffle instead

Oh I can aim quite well; Sweeps just aren't landing reliably against Shuffle users and I'm not the only one here seeing this...

Could be an Xbox bug. Mine hit regularly.

Baconlad · November 2017

If you think a properly build overload spamner is a noob canon...that is one ultimate that will make you regret saying that. You can try to counter it. But aside from running away, theres not much you can do. Youre pretty much guaranteed to to die or run.

Regarding soul assault. Getting 100k tooltip is not easy...you get that high of a tooltip you are going to have *** sustain/ defense depending on your class.

You have 39k stamina and cant block through one soul assault? L2P seriously. I have 13k stamina as a magplar in light armor, with no shields and i only have to cast one honor the dead. Seriously soul assault is still VERY WEAK compared to other ults. Give me back DBOS for magic or crescent sweep ANY day over soul assault. No one ever should have issue with this skill.

DDuke · November 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

If you think a properly build overload spamner is a noob canon...that is one ultimate that will make you regret saying that. You can try to counter it. But aside from running away, theres not much you can do. Youre pretty much guaranteed to to die or run.

Regarding soul assault. Getting 100k tooltip is not easy...you get that high of a tooltip you are going to have *** sustain/ defense depending on your class.

You have 39k stamina and cant block through one soul assault? L2P seriously. I have 13k stamina as a magplar in light armor, with no shields and i only have to cast one honor the dead. Seriously soul assault is still VERY WEAK compared to other ults. Give me back DBOS for magic or crescent sweep ANY day over soul assault. No one ever should have issue with this skill.

It's not a problem for builds with S&B or instant cast heals/shields, but for builds without those... well, it either drains over half your stam pool & health or it kills you - for 100 ultimate.

And that's for stamblade btw, you can (usually) cloak half of the ticks. Other classes have to take twice the hit to stam & health pools...

ZOS should just make it bashable & it'd be fine+more skill based.

Ankael07 · November 2017

A well-timed counterattack also works great against soul assault because the caster is unable to do anything else and is snared by 70%. But unlike the caster, you can bypass that snare with gap closers.

AverageJo3Gam3r · November 2017

SA is a one button kill used by scrubby Xv1ers that Zerg down people 20v1

DDuke · November 2017

Ankael07 wrote: »

A well-timed counterattack also works great against soul assault because the caster is unable to do anything else and is snared by 70%. But unlike the caster, you can bypass that snare with gap closers.

If you don't die before - you're not blocking while in gap closer animation so that's atleast 10k damage (with 7 impen 5/1/1 medium, no S&B) to your face the moment you press the button.

If you're already in melee range then something like Incap->AW/Surprise Attack isn't a horrible idea, but you've got to hold block while trying to burst that opponent meaning you don't have the extra burst from light/heavy attack.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

It's gotta be good vs something with all the draw backs of issuing this skill.

I 100% agree...

Sometimes if someone is counter attacking you hard enough, you have to break off Soul Assault to survive...

Even though I use it, I don't even like Soul Assault because it leaves you exposed and unable to do anything else but channel the ability...

I personally like Devouring Swarm more as it does damage, heals you, and allows you to take any action you want for its duration; Devouring Swarm + Sweeps can potentially out damage Soul Assault as well...

BUT, I'd be a fool for not recognizing how much more effective Soul Assault is against Shuffle users; especially since my follow up attack during Devouring Swarm (Puncturing Sweeps) is heavily dodged by Shuffle (thereby ruining my damage potential)...

But anyway, I think Soul Assault is fine as is...

As long as there are hordes of players utilizing Shuffle, then there should a blazing Nuke of Death (Soul Assault) to counter them...

I wrecked 3 players with bats and sweeps. With soul assault I'd have been wrecked. I agree 100%

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

You know whats funny is that jabs are undodgable, so the reason why your jabs miss is cause you cant even aim your camera lmao
@Thedoomsdaymonster

Puncturing Sweeps are undodgable!??

No they are not...

Edit: you got me questioning myself now; they sure dont seem to be undodgable...

Gonna test this out tomorrow to be certain...

Jabs/Sweeps are an AOE, no AOE abilities are dodgeable, whether by roll dodging or from Evasion buffs like Mirage or Shuffle. If it's dodgeable (which it isn't, at least on PC) it's a bug.

Then maybe it is bugged, because I am almost certain that Sweeps missing against a Shuffle user is a common occurance...

Its latency, lag, or poor aim. I've never had one dodged. A player can however avoid it and take no damage. Its a cone so its easy to side step of you're literally on topb of them. Stay about 2 meterrs back at least and you'll enjoy it more.

mikey_reach · November 2017

There's this counter play called player awareness... Its not for everyone though

NyassaV · November 2017

A simple 10% (give or take) damage reduction would go a long way

Vapirko · November 2017

I was soul assaulted by two people at once today, it was a very intimate experience.

Betsararie · November 2017

It does need counterplay, but the underlying problem is medium armor literally is not viable. It's unplayable.

You might as well just rub feces all over your toon's body because it would have the same effect. No, it would probably be better, actually.

Pastas · November 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Once again the cry babies start on the nerfs.

They never go with "buff this for counter play" its always the tears and the nerf, and zos listens. These are the people who have made ESO pvp a zergging pug fest.

Yes I'm such a cry baby because all it requires to win a fight against a medium armor player is to activate your Soul Assault. God forbid we make it so some intelligence is required to be victorious.

How do you think Magicka builds feel about Shuffle?

Its frustrating as hell gap closing a Shuffle user (and them passively dodging it and its CC), and unloading Puncturing Sweeps on them only to have atleast 2 of the Sweeps fail to connect...

In the mean while, every single attack the Shuffle user uses against you lands flush...

The way I see it, we use Soul Assault to counter the cheesy gameplay Medium Armor users bring to the table...

Afterall, the best way to counter cheese is with cheese of your own...

Ayyyyy, if you can't aim undodgeable Jabs let's blame Shuffle instead

Just buff the bow ultimate dramatically and cause it to drain 17k magicka from any magbuild on top of 60-100k tooltip damage

And don't forget to reduce the cost to 100, so we can spam it LOL

Waffennacht · November 2017

Medium is fine. And quite frankly, without Soul Assault, I'd practically never die
Edit: though I still support crit resistance, because it just makes sense.

Strider__Roshin · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Medium is fine. And quite frankly, without Soul Assault, I'd practically never die

Moves such as soul assault, dive, and destro ult are the reasons why medium is the weakest of all armor types. The lack of counterplay with damage shields is why light armor is the strongest.

I think the main issue is that damage shields increase in strength via max magicka. Which also increases the strength of the Sorc's attacks. What they need to do is make it so weapon/spell damage is the primary influence on ability damage (like light and heavy attacks), and make it so max stam/magicka determines the strength of heals, and damage shields.

Baconlad · November 2017

Dodge roll is incredibly powerful...stacked with vigor and two hander burst heal. Dodge is awesome. So medium is not weak. It allows inCREDIBLE damage stacking.

Seeiously you all need to chill out on soul assault. If used 1v1 you should never die to soul assault alone. Your enemy would be better off using DBOS or batswarm 1v1 than soul assault.

DDuke · November 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

Dodge roll is incredibly powerful...stacked with vigor and two hander burst heal. Dodge is awesome. So medium is not weak. It allows inCREDIBLE damage stacking.

Seeiously you all need to chill out on soul assault. If used 1v1 you should never die to soul assault alone. Your enemy would be better off using DBOS or batswarm 1v1 than soul assault.

Oh yeah, dodge roll & vigor are so powerful... medium so stronk...

https://youtu.be/wC5HM0cpTDU

What medium armor has is damage - and that's it. It still severely lacks on survivability (unless you run S&B) against most builds due to the amount of undodgeable abilities.

To compare some things, do you know how much getting 1k magicka boosts shield strength? Around 220 in PvP.

And what does getting 1k more stamina do to Vigor? You get 19 health/second more.

It's just ridiculous how weak medium armor's main defenses are when dodge roll doesn't work.

Baconlad · November 2017

Hey sorry man i have zero sympathy. Im a magplar, and not many of us run shields. Try running a class that is supposed to mitigate damage through armor with the weakest armor, no shields, no consistent spammable dodgeroll, no massive hot, and no sword and shield. Guess the *** what man...i dont die to soul assault.

You want to run medium armor, thats fine...run it. But dont come *** at me when your set choice reflects a glass canon and you are mad you die to soul assualt. Run medium armor man, no ones saying not to. But maybe try running one less damage set and one more defensive set, not sustain set, defensive set. There are plenty of defensive sets out there.

Also you mentioned sword and board. For good reason...as the main defensive weapon for stamina...why dont you run that? You say that dodge roll isnt strong...which is idiotic, but the video above shows that your upset that you cant just stack damage and rely on dodge roll for everything, which is also idiotic. Run a defensive set or run sword and board. And learn to block meteors roflmao.

That player had whats called a "combination" on you, incase you werent aware. Meteor alone didnt kill you, it was a combination of your bad set bonus choices, bad health management, bad weapon choices and sheer enemy skill. And enemy combo. Soul assault or ANY ultimate is in the same boat as that meteor that killed you...

If you think shields are too strong, thats fine. Say somthing about them in a seperate discussion. Dont use them as an excuse for your bad gameplay.

Waffennacht · November 2017

@DDuke you're in a duel, I go 11-0, 9-1, 7-2 etc in BGs, I kill most players in Cyrodiil, and I barely win 50% of my duels if that.

You're already within range, you're already being focused on, you don't get to LoS, you can't run away, your maneuvering is limited to the circle.

You're absolutely starting in the worst conditions for medium armor. It's not wise to using duels as a standard

Ragnaroek93 · November 2017

So you can use Soul Strike every 30 seconds which drains around 20k stamina from a non s&b build (since you also lose a regen tick while blocking) and still around 13k on a nightblade if you coak it after 2 seconds. This equals "negative" ~1300 or ~800 for cloakblades stamregen. Please dear magicka players, stop pretending that this is fine because it's definitely not even close to be fine.
Afterall magicka is in an incredible strong spot right now and stamina can indeed get a bit love since we lack utility, sustain and defense which magbuilds can easily achieve (dmg is ok). I don't think it is ok that stamina has no reliable way to counter pressure, at least not for a decent amount of time.

DDuke · November 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

Hey sorry man i have zero sympathy. Im a magplar, and not many of us run shields. Try running a class that is supposed to mitigate damage through armor with the weakest armor, no shields, no consistent spammable dodgeroll, no massive hot, and no sword and shield. Guess the *** what man...i dont die to soul assault.

Guess what, I've also got a magplar - I pretty much created the magplar Fasallas+Malubeth meta back in 2016.

You can easily survive any sustained undodgeable damage such as Soul Assault with Honor the Dead, an actual strong heal unlike Rally/Vigor.

Baconlad wrote: »

You want to run medium armor, thats fine...run it. But dont come *** at me when your set choice reflects a glass canon and you are mad you die to soul assualt. Run medium armor man, no ones saying not to. But maybe try running one less damage set and one more defensive set, not sustain set, defensive set. There are plenty of defensive sets out there.

I'm not mad because I die to Soul Assault, not anymore (I can do the same to magicka builds with Ballista, albeit with 75 more ultimate) - I'm mad when people like you claim dodge roll/vigor/rally to be strong.

Baconlad wrote: »

Also you mentioned sword and board. For good reason...as the main defensive weapon for stamina...why dont you run that? You say that dodge roll isnt strong...which is idiotic, but the video above shows that your upset that you cant just stack damage and rely on dodge roll for everything, which is also idiotic. Run a defensive set or run sword and board. And learn to block meteors roflmao.

Oh, so magicka builds can stack damage and rely on shields, but stamina builds can't similarly rely on dodge roll? Also, stacking damage also stacks up your healing, in case you weren't aware. A sustain medium build would've been dead twice as fast.

If you're wondering why that meteor wasn't blocked.. well, misplays happen - not my finest duel.
Would've been dead regardless, as you see the magplar approaching spamming sweeps (enough to kill me through block from that health %).

Baconlad wrote: »

That player had whats called a "combination" on you, incase you werent aware. Meteor alone didnt kill you, it was a combination of your bad set bonus choices, bad health management, bad weapon choices and sheer enemy skill. And enemy combo. Soul assault or ANY ultimate is in the same boat as that meteor that killed you...

Well, if you pay attention to the video you can see I have Vigor up almost 24/7, so "bad health management" isn't the problem. This is also the strongest stamblade bow build that can be built, so "set bonus choices" aren't the issue either.

"bad weapon choices"... well, maybe I should play a cancer S&B meta "roll face on keyboard" build like everyone else? ...nah, not interested.

Baconlad wrote: »

If you think shields are too strong, thats fine. Say somthing about them in a seperate discussion. Dont use them as an excuse for your bad gameplay.

Shields aren't too strong, they melt in seconds when you drop Ballista & land an Asylum Snipe combo. They still allow people to survive better than medium armor does.

As for "bad gameplay", well, if I am to demonstrate problems in medium armor survivability, I can't very well do that with a clip where I'm the one bursting someone down, can I? I've beat most people at the EU duel spot with this build, including the person in that video (he even made a "nerf asylum bow" forum post because of it).

Problem is, doing well in medium armor requires everything to go perfectly - you make one mistake and its over due to the defensive weaknesses of the armor type, where as magicka builds can go full damage and still rely on shields/instant heals to carry them and S&B builds can just hold block when they feel like it to practically become immune to damage.

There's no comparison, a medium non-S&B build has to really outplay opponents to perform well.

Obviously medium armor was designed with dodge roll as their primary defense (which is why stamina heals are so weak compared to magicka heals/shields), but this doesn't really reflect how the game works today, 3,5 years later, with the ever-increasing amount of undodgeable abilities in the game.

Baconlad · November 2017

I...im sorry, so now not only do medium stam users not want to have to build passive mitigation like everyone else...they now want to have all damage, no regen and not have to heavy attack for resources.

As a mag templar, i have run for years with dual swords because i was told they were the bestest evar for uber damages!!!! So...after learning the game, and what works and what doesnt. Ive learned that im better off running lightning staff, weaker damage but i now get to heavy attack for resources on my main bar!!!! See your not the only ones who have to change things.

Youre also telling me that you spend 20ish k stamina blocking over the course of soul assault...but that vigor and two hander heal dont heal through the damage? Well *** on a toon with 100k tooltip you should be able to block all of that damage and not die. But now vigor once and you can mitigate even more damage while blocking, then you pop a pot, heavy attack and boom, ur back in the game resource wise. If your not...maybe you need more regen!!

See how it works? Build us some regen and passive mitigation...and you will be fine. I remeber when i tried to build glass canon light armor on my magplar, i got *** REKKED...so i dont do it now...cause i like to stay in the fight. Soul assault is weak AF honestly. Mediocre at BEST. I would take magic DBOS or crescent over soul assault ANYDAY.

L2P

DDuke · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

@DDuke you're in a duel, I go 11-0, 9-1, 7-2 etc in BGs, I kill most players in Cyrodiil, and I barely win 50% of my duels if that.

You're already within range, you're already being focused on, you don't get to LoS, you can't run away, your maneuvering is limited to the circle.

You're absolutely starting in the worst conditions for medium armor. It's not wise to using duels as a standard

Yeah, these builds work better when you can fall behind other players (or use LOS), but is that really how it should be?

I mean, this is probably the first MMORPG I've played where only "warriors", "paladins" & "mages" are allowed to duel. Why can't I bring my archer/hunter to a duel spot & expect to have positive win rate? Or a DW/Bow rogue/assassin? I'm sick and tired of all these tank builds being pushed down my throat. If I wanted to play one, I'd play one and become another meta clone.

That's just bad balance, and exactly why forum posts like these need to exist until balance issues are addressed.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

I have no more problems against this ultimate than any other strong ult. You're given time to react. Can't complain about that.

Try eating dks heavy, wb, leap, executioner with 3 dots ticking on you, one of which is an execute dot.

Or a stam wardens subass, heavy attack wrecking blow, dbos executioner.

Those can be LITERALLY 2 shots. No reaction time or counter play. Stamina is fine.

Also if you have a bow ultimate up, drop it and block heal through it while yours eats the other player.

melloni_aleb16_ESO · November 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

You don't like Soul Assault? Well I don't like Shuffle...so we are even.

Shield-stacking also boried ( + ulti resto staff ) , but we are not all ret****d and because we do not like one thing ...we don't use shieldbreaker set ...

I have 20 years of mmorpg on my shoulders ( for work and fun ) ; but this is the most toxic community I have ever seen

melloni_aleb16_ESO · November 2017

edit

WuffyCerulei · November 2017

Moving out of Line of Sight is probably the easiest thing you can do.

SHADOW2KK · November 2017

melloni_aleb16_ESO wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

You don't like Soul Assault? Well I don't like Shuffle...so we are even.

Shield-stacking also boried ( + ulti resto staff ) , but we are not all ret****d and because we do not like one thing ...we don't use shieldbreaker set ...

I have 20 years of mmorpg on my shoulders ( for work and fun ) ; but this is the most toxic community I have ever seen

Try Eve Online forums or on Reddit, community here are nothing compared to the sharks there hehe, or the Battlefield community too.

Waffennacht · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@DDuke you're in a duel, I go 11-0, 9-1, 7-2 etc in BGs, I kill most players in Cyrodiil, and I barely win 50% of my duels if that.

You're already within range, you're already being focused on, you don't get to LoS, you can't run away, your maneuvering is limited to the circle.

You're absolutely starting in the worst conditions for medium armor. It's not wise to using duels as a standard

Yeah, these builds work better when you can fall behind other players (or use LOS), but is that really how it should be?

I mean, this is probably the first MMORPG I've played where only "warriors", "paladins" & "mages" are allowed to duel. Why can't I bring my archer/hunter to a duel spot & expect to have positive win rate? Or a DW/Bow rogue/assassin? I'm sick and tired of all these tank builds being pushed down my throat. If I wanted to play one, I'd play one and become another meta clone.

That's just bad balance, and exactly why forum posts like these need to exist until balance issues are addressed.

Well I did think of that after I posted that lol. I don't know of a good fix, but I do think medium should have crit resistance.

DDuke · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@DDuke you're in a duel, I go 11-0, 9-1, 7-2 etc in BGs, I kill most players in Cyrodiil, and I barely win 50% of my duels if that.

You're already within range, you're already being focused on, you don't get to LoS, you can't run away, your maneuvering is limited to the circle.

You're absolutely starting in the worst conditions for medium armor. It's not wise to using duels as a standard

Yeah, these builds work better when you can fall behind other players (or use LOS), but is that really how it should be?

I mean, this is probably the first MMORPG I've played where only "warriors", "paladins" & "mages" are allowed to duel. Why can't I bring my archer/hunter to a duel spot & expect to have positive win rate? Or a DW/Bow rogue/assassin? I'm sick and tired of all these tank builds being pushed down my throat. If I wanted to play one, I'd play one and become another meta clone.

That's just bad balance, and exactly why forum posts like these need to exist until balance issues are addressed.

Well I did think of that after I posted that lol. I don't know of a good fix, but I do think medium should have crit resistance.

They need something.

I mean, the main problem is how badly the main defensive abilities scale compared to magicka builds.

You get literally over 10 times less "value" from stamina/weapon dmg than you do from magicka when it comes to defensive abilities. 10 times, that's mindblowing.

They used to be balanced with the idea that being able to dodge roll more would make things even - but that's not really the case anymore.

I don't know, the solution could be as simple as buffing stamina defensive skills, but then you'd have S&B builds become even more tanky. Ideally, ZOS should come up with a solution that doesn't make those S&B tank builds more tanky, but helps other medium builds survive as well as magicka staff builds.