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Second grade subscribers
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SisterGoat✭✭✭✭✭The difference between a contest and a sweepstakes is that a sweepstakes is a game of chance and a contest is a game of skill. A game of chance can fall under the law of lottery, and since only the government can run lotteries, it could be considered illegal in that state/country.Jumps-In-Water - Magicka Templar
Dar'akar - Stamina Nightblade
Jumps-In-Lava - Magicka Dragon Knight
PC/NA0 -
BlazingDynamo✭✭✭✭✭Ask your country why you can't participate.
Stop blaming Zos I'm sure your money is good enough for them if it wasn't against the law to take it from you.2 -
swippy✭✭✭✭✭I was really hoping for a rousing discussion over wether 7 year olds are allowed to subscribe to eso+
Personally, I'm against it. Unfortunately, in my part of the world there are still many 2nd graders unable to reliably do arithmetic in the 4-digit range, risking huge hassles for Customer Service in "accidental" Crown spending, a problem that would be compounded by the similarly-limited literacy of these young people.
The above stands apart from the well-known issues of gambling addiction in this demographic, which has been linked to such activities as buying Crown Crates and playing "jacks", however dubiously.2 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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Here's what I found. I don't know if it includes all later changes, but it doesn't matter for the fragment I quoted. Keep in mind that the translated document is not considered authentic and legally binding.Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »Even if the service is free, you still need to acquire it. That makes it a promotional lottery which falls under the Polish gambling law.
Art. 2. 1. Grami losowymi są gry, w tym urządzane przez sieć Internet, o wygrane pieniężne lub rzeczowe, których wynik w szczególności zależy od przypadku. Są to:
(...)
10) loterie promocyjne, w których uczestniczy się przez nabycie towaru, usługi lub innego dowodu udziału w grze i tym samym nieodpłatnie uczestniczy się w loterii, a podmiot urządzający loterię oferuje wygrane pieniężne lub rzeczowe;
Is there a english translation? Just curious
I use to work in a law firm. Never sought to specialize in it, but law was always interesting to me.
The important part:
10) promotion lotteries where participation is conditional upon purchasing goods, services or other game ticket, whereby participation in the lottery is free and where the entity organising the game offers cash or material prizes;
Key word: purchasing. I feel it implies paying with money in English, but the Polish word "nabycie" doesn't necessarily mean that. As far as I can remember, it just means the transfer of rights. However, I can't find a legal definition, so I can't be 100% certain. I know that for the purposes of VAT calculations acquiring something for free does fall under the term "nabycie towarów". That's why the law later specifies "nabycie towarów za opłatą", acquiring goods for a fee, to differentiate these two situations.
In any case, if you get ESO for free, you still go through the normal purchase process, don't you? Is it legally a purchase in the American law even when it's free? Because if it is, then there's nothing left to discuss really.Edited by Rosveen on November 7, 2017 5:56PM2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was really hoping for a rousing discussion over wether 7 year olds are allowed to subscribe to eso+
Personally, I'm against it. Unfortunately, in my part of the world there are still many 2nd graders unable to reliably do arithmetic in the 4-digit range, risking huge hassles for Customer Service in "accidental" Crown spending, a problem that would be compounded by the similarly-limited literacy of these young people.
The above stands apart from the well-known issues of gambling addiction in this demographic, which has been linked to such activities as buying Crown Crates and playing "jacks", however dubiously.
So, you're saying, they have a pathological need to run into caltrops and stand there?
Well, to be fair, that'd make them more competent than your average pug. At least they're aware of standing in stupid, now you just need to teach them to stay out of it, instead of introducing the entire concept from scratch.0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's disgusting and insulting towards thousands (tens of thousands?) of your playerbase.
Before blurting out harsh accusations like that you might want to educate yourself a bit first; you could achieve that by simply politely asking for an explanation. It's a fact that many countries have very special laws on sweepstakes that makes it extremely difficult, or in some cases virtually impossible, to include players from these countries in the contest/lottery. This is the reason that so many countries are excluded, they have very different laws that setup huge or impossible high hindrances for participation and the conducts of the contest/lottery.
Edited by Jayman1000 on November 7, 2017 6:06PM0 -
Takes-No-Prisoner✭✭✭✭✭
✭In any case, if you get ESO for free, you still go through the normal purchase process, don't you? Is it legally a purchase in the American law even when it's free? Because if it is, then there's nothing left to discuss really.
Never got ESO for free. So I cannot answer that part. As for USA law, sweepstakes and lottery laws boil down to local governing bodies(ie: individual States).0 -
Hokiewa✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Owning the game is not your entry ticket seeing as how you have to actually register to enter the sweepstakes: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26235?Enter-the-#10MillionStories-Sweepstakes-for-a-chance-at-hundreds-of-epic-prizes!
However, participation is dependent on you actually owning the game, given the instructions for entering:
"If you'd like to be one of the 300 lucky winners, follow the steps below:
Register for the 10 Million Stories Sweepstakes via the online entry form.
Play The Elder Scrolls Online any time between November 1, 2017 at 12:01AM EDT, and December 6, 2017 at 11:59PM EST."
Therefore, this does seem to fall under Poland's guidelines that "This is unlawful (it may be considered as a lottery, which requires obtaining official approval under the Gambling Act), unless participation in the promotion is not conditional on the purchase of goods, services or another game ticket." since participation is indeed conditional on purchasing the game.
And that would be true if not the fact that ESO will be free (to make account and play) during the Sweepstake. So it doesnt require to buy game account and theres NO polish law preventing polish citizens from participating.
https://imgur.com/a/jjyAz
It's still true, even with that promo going on. At least, in so far as an ambitious state prosecutor making life miserable for everyone involved. A lot of times, when you're assessing international liability on something like this, it's a lot easier to simply say, "nope, not worth the risk," and strike someone off the list, than to take the chance that someone, somewhere, might throw a fit.
Very true but more then likely it's a cost analysis as well. Billable time researching specific countries regulations every time a new contest/sweeps/whatever pops up is cost prohibitive. You are likely looking at least $450/hr (which is probably low given that international law is quite complex) and as I'm greatly aware of, over billing is practically an everyday occurrence at every law firm in the world.0 -
Stania✭✭✭✭✭I found an interesting article explaining anything related to laws regarding to sweepstakes and contests, perhaps some may find an answer to this issue here:
http://www.jonesday.com/files/publication/69ea168c-4173-4321-9fa5-d4b8bb86ae1c/presentation/publicationattachment/b9a311c5-f53d-4a89-97fc-d85993081c2e/bennet.pdfPC NA server
¡Hablo español!|vet trial #1|vet trial #2|vet trial #3 HM|Another vet trial|a hard-to-get achievement|
My characters:
<List of characters that no one cares to know with their classes and roles>
"Inspirational quote"0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »In any case, if you get ESO for free, you still go through the normal purchase process, don't you? Is it legally a purchase in the American law even when it's free? Because if it is, then there's nothing left to discuss really.
Never got ESO for free. So I cannot answer that part. As for USA law, sweepstakes and lottery laws boil down to local governing bodies(ie: individual States).
In the US it does. Also Canada and Australia vary by province and state (respectively).0 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If your country doesn’t allow it why blame ZOS?
I’ve seen numerous threads like this. What is wrong with you people? This shouldn’t even be a surprise to you.
They paid their money for a game, and they're getting excluded from a contest related to the game they love. It hurts, and they're right to be upset and feel slighted.
Zo$ could of given them some free crown crates, just a little love with no contest at all as a sign of goodwill. I would be fine with this
Edited by Girl_Number8 on November 7, 2017 6:36PM1 -
Takes-No-Prisoner✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »In any case, if you get ESO for free, you still go through the normal purchase process, don't you? Is it legally a purchase in the American law even when it's free? Because if it is, then there's nothing left to discuss really.
Never got ESO for free. So I cannot answer that part. As for USA law, sweepstakes and lottery laws boil down to local governing bodies(ie: individual States).
In the US it does. Also Canada and Australia vary by province and state (respectively).
Yeah. You know for Quebec, Canada. There was a product called the 'SNES Classic' that was going to be sold back late in September. They have a local law that specifically states that digital media, including games, need to have dual translation for both French and English. Due to the nature of the SNES, and how those games were released only in English in that time period, it was not allowed to be sold in that province. Nintendo couldn't or the 3rd party companies could not provide EN/FR for the SNES games.3 -
Cously✭✭✭✭✭
✭Laws are useless for the good men don't need them and the bad men will break them.
Our governments deem us way too *** to make our own decisions thus stupid laws such ones regulating gambling.
I'm from Brazil and got used to be ruled out of these, it's a shame but definately not ZOS' fault.1 -
THWIP71✭✭✭✭Well, to be fair, if you're only in "second grade", you're far too young to be playing ESO anyway. #BadParenting
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Girl_Number8 wrote: »They paid their money for a game, and they're getting excluded from a contest related to the game they love. It hurts, and they're right to be upset and feel slighted.
Zo$ could of given them some free crown crates, just a little love with no contest at all as a sign of goodwill. I would be fine with this
They paid their money for a game that they agreed to play in accordance with the laws of their home country. ZOS is providing this content to everyone whose country of residence permits them to enter. ZOS does not bear any responsibility for players' decision to live in a country/locality whose laws don't allow ZOS to run sweepstakes for their residents. Players can A. move and B. petition their home country for a change of sweepstakes law.
ZOS won't even comp ESO+ subscribers for unexpected server downtimes, and you expect them to comp players who are being "excluded" from a contest by their own country/local government? Good luck.
P.S. This is your reminder that you aren't excluded from the in game event or the reward crates received from running dungeons. You are only excluded from the sweepstakes prizes because your home country/locality says you are.
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Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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To be fair, most of our countries do allow sweepstakes - they're just heavily regulated, so it would be disproportionately expensive and time-consuming for ZOS to look into the legal situation in every country on Earth and follow the necessary steps to make the contest available for us all.VaranisArano wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »They paid their money for a game, and they're getting excluded from a contest related to the game they love. It hurts, and they're right to be upset and feel slighted.
Zo$ could of given them some free crown crates, just a little love with no contest at all as a sign of goodwill. I would be fine with this
They paid their money for a game that they agreed to play in accordance with the laws of their home country. ZOS is providing this content to everyone whose country of residence permits them to enter. ZOS does not bear any responsibility for players' decision to live in a country/locality whose laws don't allow ZOS to run sweepstakes for their residents. Players can A. move and B. petition their home country for a change of sweepstakes law.
ZOS won't even comp ESO+ subscribers for unexpected server downtimes, and you expect them to comp players who are being "excluded" from a contest by their own country/local government? Good luck.
P.S. This is your reminder that you aren't excluded from the in game event or the reward crates received from running dungeons. You are only excluded from the sweepstakes prizes because your home country/locality says you are.
It sucks, but that's just the way it is. I'm glad they gave us a second ingame dungeon event at the same time, so we all have a chance to get something nice.Edited by Rosveen on November 7, 2017 8:18PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Girl_Number8 wrote: »If your country doesn’t allow it why blame ZOS?
I’ve seen numerous threads like this. What is wrong with you people? This shouldn’t even be a surprise to you.
They paid their money for a game, and they're getting excluded from a contest related to the game they love. It hurts, and they're right to be upset and feel slighted.
Zo$ could of given them some free crown crates, just a little love with no contest at all as a sign of goodwill. I would be fine with this
@Girl_Number8
Incorrect logic used.
They have no reason to be upset with Zos over this if the laws of their nation or local governments forbid participation in such a thing just as those that don't live under such laws should not be punished as well.
They should be talking with their government. Expressing their displeasure with them. Complain to an entity that has no control over their laws.
Also, offering them free crowns to those upset with the laws they live under would be an extremely poor decision for Zos to make. Oh my, talk about justly complaining to Zos.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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To be fair, most of our countries do allow sweepstakes - they're just heavily regulated, so it would be disproportionately expensive and time-consuming for ZOS to look into the legal situation in every country on Earth and follow the necessary steps to make the contest available for us all.VaranisArano wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »They paid their money for a game, and they're getting excluded from a contest related to the game they love. It hurts, and they're right to be upset and feel slighted.
Zo$ could of given them some free crown crates, just a little love with no contest at all as a sign of goodwill. I would be fine with this
They paid their money for a game that they agreed to play in accordance with the laws of their home country. ZOS is providing this content to everyone whose country of residence permits them to enter. ZOS does not bear any responsibility for players' decision to live in a country/locality whose laws don't allow ZOS to run sweepstakes for their residents. Players can A. move and B. petition their home country for a change of sweepstakes law.
ZOS won't even comp ESO+ subscribers for unexpected server downtimes, and you expect them to comp players who are being "excluded" from a contest by their own country/local government? Good luck.
P.S. This is your reminder that you aren't excluded from the in game event or the reward crates received from running dungeons. You are only excluded from the sweepstakes prizes because your home country/locality says you are.
It sucks, but that's just the way it is. I'm glad they gave us a second ingame dungeon event at the same time, so we all have a chance to get something nice.
Assuming complying is even possible. In the case of Australia, one of the stipulations is that the drawing would have to be held within their national borders. Without that, "nope, illegal there." It wouldn't surprise me in the least if at least one or two other countries had similar regulations.1 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Oh boy. Here comes the armchair lawyers.
Can’t we talk about smart and beautiful polish women instead? 2 -
Shardan4968✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why this thread is mostly about Poland btw.? Are we the biggest complainers in the world?
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Takes-No-Prisoner✭✭✭✭✭
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To be fair, most of our countries do allow sweepstakes - they're just heavily regulated, so it would be disproportionately expensive and time-consuming for ZOS to look into the legal situation in every country on Earth and follow the necessary steps to make the contest available for us all.VaranisArano wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »They paid their money for a game, and they're getting excluded from a contest related to the game they love. It hurts, and they're right to be upset and feel slighted.
Zo$ could of given them some free crown crates, just a little love with no contest at all as a sign of goodwill. I would be fine with this
They paid their money for a game that they agreed to play in accordance with the laws of their home country. ZOS is providing this content to everyone whose country of residence permits them to enter. ZOS does not bear any responsibility for players' decision to live in a country/locality whose laws don't allow ZOS to run sweepstakes for their residents. Players can A. move and B. petition their home country for a change of sweepstakes law.
ZOS won't even comp ESO+ subscribers for unexpected server downtimes, and you expect them to comp players who are being "excluded" from a contest by their own country/local government? Good luck.
P.S. This is your reminder that you aren't excluded from the in game event or the reward crates received from running dungeons. You are only excluded from the sweepstakes prizes because your home country/locality says you are.
It sucks, but that's just the way it is. I'm glad they gave us a second ingame dungeon event at the same time, so we all have a chance to get something nice.
This is true. There is a lotto in the USA called the Power Ball. Which is a lotto network comprised of several states. But not every state gets to participate..
There may also come a time when those lotto laws change. I do remember a time, one state I lived in joined the Power Ball lotto back in 2010. Before then, Power Ball lotto tickets were not sold in that state. So, there may come a time other countries excluded from sweepstakes can join in. It really boils down to who is in charge of the governing body at the time and the peoples values.Edited by Takes-No-Prisoner on November 7, 2017 8:36PM0 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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Because the OP is Polish and spent half the thread arguing that the sweepstakes are pefectly legal in our country.Shardan4968 wrote: »Why this thread is mostly about Poland btw.? Are we the biggest complainers in the world?0 -
Takes-No-Prisoner✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you don't agree with your countries sweepstakes/lotto laws, write to your prime minster/senator/local representative and explain to them why their laws don't work.0 -
swippy✭✭✭✭✭Girl_Number8 wrote: »If your country doesn’t allow it why blame ZOS?
I’ve seen numerous threads like this. What is wrong with you people? This shouldn’t even be a surprise to you.
They paid their money for a game, and they're getting excluded from a contest related to the game they love. It hurts, and they're right to be upset and feel slighted.
Zo$ could of given them some free crown crates, just a little love with no contest at all as a sign of goodwill. I would be fine with this
i agree with the sentiment, but i think they kind of already did this. a related aspect of the sweepstakes is the Random Dungeon event starting at the end of the month, and since the legalities are easy on that everyone gets to participate to that degree. i'm settling for it myself.
as an aside, i'm kind of assuming and strongly hoping that that's going to be another data-gathering "stress test" in order to fix some of the longstanding problems with that feature. it strikes me as similar to that random AP even they did early this year, when they encouraged everyone to rush Cyrodiil and then analyzed the results, and then came up with stuff to try to see what would work. i'm not very dungeony myself but i hear a lot of complaints around that queue, and those sound a lot more legitimate than most of the... ahem0 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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Honestly, I have much bigger problems with my country's law than not being able to enter ESO sweepstakes.Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »If you don't agree with your countries sweepstakes/lotto laws, write to your prime minster/senator/local representative and explain to them why their laws don't work.
Edited by Rosveen on November 7, 2017 8:53PM5 -
Takes-No-Prisoner✭✭✭✭✭
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Honestly, I have much bigger problems with my country's law than not being able to enter ESO sweepstakes.Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »If you don't agree with your countries sweepstakes/lotto laws, write to your prime minster/senator/local representative and explain to them why their laws don't work.
Hahaha, I can imagine so! I've never been to your country so I'm sure they have much much more pressing matters then rewriting lotto laws.
In the USA we're always told to write to our local State reps. when we disagree with local law. Never hurts to give it a good try either way.0 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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If I was going to write to anyone about ESO, I'd be pushing for getting crown crates classified as a form of gambling EU-wide.Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »
Honestly, I have much bigger problems with my country's law than not being able to enter ESO sweepstakes.Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »If you don't agree with your countries sweepstakes/lotto laws, write to your prime minster/senator/local representative and explain to them why their laws don't work.
Hahaha, I can imagine so! I've never been to your country so I'm sure they have much much more pressing matters then rewriting lotto laws.
In the USA we're always told to write to our local State reps. when we disagree with local law. Never hurts to give it a good try either way.1 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »They paid their money for a game, and they're getting excluded from a contest related to the game they love. It hurts, and they're right to be upset and feel slighted.
Zo$ could of given them some free crown crates, just a little love with no contest at all as a sign of goodwill. I would be fine with this
They paid their money for a game that they agreed to play in accordance with the laws of their home country. ZOS is providing this content to everyone whose country of residence permits them to enter. ZOS does not bear any responsibility for players' decision to live in a country/locality whose laws don't allow ZOS to run sweepstakes for their residents. Players can A. move and B. petition their home country for a change of sweepstakes law.
ZOS won't even comp ESO+ subscribers for unexpected server downtimes, and you expect them to comp players who are being "excluded" from a contest by their own country/local government? Good luck.
P.S. This is your reminder that you aren't excluded from the in game event or the reward crates received from running dungeons. You are only excluded from the sweepstakes prizes because your home country/locality says you are.
A. stop being so grumpy! B. Zo$ can afford to give digital fluff away<3
P.S. What? I'm a Cali girl. I just felt bad for the other players. It's called ummm compassion. Maybe you can Google it when you get that stick out of your
.
Hope Zo$ does something for you guys, good luck!Edited by Girl_Number8 on November 7, 2017 10:32PM1