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For those who think perma-blocking isn't a problem:
wheem_ESO
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I completed a "Crazy King" Battleground game a little while ago, where my pug group (though I did I queue with one person in a duo) faced off against 2 premades. The lowest damage on my team came in at 986.4k, while the highest was 1.2m in a game that did not go the full 15 minutes. The only time anyone on the green team was killable, was when they were spread out away from each other. Otherwise it was the same boring thing every time: Permablocking Templar as dedicated healer, second Templar as backup healer/dps (who also blocked quite frequently), guard on one of the DPS, and an extra 140k healing from the Magblade thrown in for funsies.
The permablocking Templar healed for 775.5k, while the frequently blocking backup healed for 391.6k (and keep in mind that self healing doesn't get counted on the scoreboard). So, contrary to what some players seem to think, permablocking does not require you to be nothing more than a bump on a log. That particular premade had a grand total of 9 deaths, and most of those were just when people were caught on their own. The permablocker was caught on his own a couple times as well, but only died once; he ccould generally tank 4 people + self heal/cleanse for long enough that his team could show up.
While the other premade also had a Templar healer, theirs didn't permablock and was therefore imminently killable. In fact, they were probably a bit too easy to kill - just like most everyone else that doesn't block, shield stack, or have good escape mechanisms. This leaves many fights in Battlegrounds being to one extreme or the other; permablocking healers that virtually never die on one end, and people exploding in 2-3 seconds on the other.
Running away from an objective because some dude is holding down his right mouse button while spamming Breath of Life isn't a good solution.
The permablocking Templar healed for 775.5k, while the frequently blocking backup healed for 391.6k (and keep in mind that self healing doesn't get counted on the scoreboard). So, contrary to what some players seem to think, permablocking does not require you to be nothing more than a bump on a log. That particular premade had a grand total of 9 deaths, and most of those were just when people were caught on their own. The permablocker was caught on his own a couple times as well, but only died once; he ccould generally tank 4 people + self heal/cleanse for long enough that his team could show up.
While the other premade also had a Templar healer, theirs didn't permablock and was therefore imminently killable. In fact, they were probably a bit too easy to kill - just like most everyone else that doesn't block, shield stack, or have good escape mechanisms. This leaves many fights in Battlegrounds being to one extreme or the other; permablocking healers that virtually never die on one end, and people exploding in 2-3 seconds on the other.
Running away from an objective because some dude is holding down his right mouse button while spamming Breath of Life isn't a good solution.
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Sixty5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just saying, this sort of thing rarely ever happened in non CP
Still think there should be an increase block/break free node in the CP tree to counteract warlord and shadow ward.Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.
I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Did you read the post, or quit after I said the word premade?Waffennacht wrote: »Premade vs PuG and you had trouble? Never!
There were two premades in that game; green-premade had 9 total deaths, while purple-premade had 27 total deaths. The main difference? Green had a permablocking healer (plus Guard) while the purple team didn't. We actually fought against green quite a lot more than we did against purple, but the latter team was killable due to not permablocking.
Total killing blows by team:
Green-premade: 15
Purple-premade: 4
Red-semi-pug: 26
There may have been some killstealing here and there, but not too terribly much. The point isn't that our score was lower than that of the premades, but rather that we had 4 players that all had very respectable damage, frequently targeting one permablocking healer and/or his teammates, but they almost never died.
A lot of people in other threads seem to think that all permablockers should just be ignored while you do something else, since they can't do anything besides hold block and self heal. In reality, that's simply not the case. Permablockers can do a tremendous amount of healing with the right setup, and ignoring them generally isn't a good option for battlegrounds.1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh I absolutely agree with the whole gist of the post. It's just that there's absolutely nothing you can do as a PuG.
None, zero, you're gonna lose against a good premade.
Unfortunately that means there is no advice to give, and ZoS didn't listen about CP in BGs anywayEdited by Waffennacht on November 2, 2017 3:58AM5 -
a1i3nz✭✭✭✭The best solution I've found to this is to play another game or just cheese it because ESO PvP is poop
Played 3 years. Never balanced. When BG's came out we all knew it was gonna be the same.
Fortnite is fun!
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Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭If a magplar healer can out tank you and 3 other people on his own indefinitely, the problem isnt the magplar..4 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I wouldn't be so fast to blame the player for having trouble with some of these tanks...
in theory one could run 5 Reactive + 5 Fortified Brass/Armor Master + 2 Malabeth
With a Resto Staff for Lights Champion, one can stack Major + Minor Protection(Light's Champion and Templar Rune) + 35% reduction with Reactive Armor, + Major Resolve and Major Ward(Templar Rune) + Fortified/Armor Master he will nerf your damage into the ground to the point he doesn't even need to perma block, and when he does, thats where the Sword and Board ultimate comes into play...You will be lucky to hit him for 400 damage with 4k weap or spell damage....he will be able to tank you indefinitely....with enough health for a viable Blazing Shield he doesn't need a lot of magicka, and he doesn't need to keep it up all the time either due to higher health and beyond the armor and spell resist cap to cancel out your pentration and debuffs. BS used as a buffer, Mist Form to regen stam and relieve pressure.
I very much could see a Troll Tank like this being very successful in objective based BG's with CP...no 4 players are going to drive him off a flag, not for like 15 mins anyways...oh and make sure he is Argonian so he is immune to your Major Defile from disease damage or enchants and the nice potion passive...
Setups like this are absolutely broken, and this is just a rough outline...you can get sustain from the right placement in CP, proper enchants and mundas stone and correct potions and being an Argonian makes that even better...sure he won't kill anyone, but you better convince the other team to help you double team the guy 8 on 1 if you want to be able to kill him in any decent semblence of time, because if played right 4 people will have a very hard time bursting him down.
its a total troll set up, but i could see some players using it simply because why not...Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
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deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personally when I’m playing something like chaos ball and one, as people are calling them “super tanks”, are holding the ball I go grab a drink and alt tab to watch YouTube videos. That’s okay right?Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!0 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »I wouldn't be so fast to blame the player for having trouble with some of these tanks...
in theory one could run 5 Reactive + 5 Fortified Brass/Armor Master + 2 Malabeth
With a Resto Staff for Lights Champion, one can stack Major + Minor Protection(Light's Champion and Templar Rune) + 35% reduction with Reactive Armor, + Major Resolve and Major Ward(Templar Rune) + Fortified/Armor Master he will nerf your damage into the ground to the point he doesn't even need to perma block, and when he does, thats where the Sword and Board ultimate comes into play...You will be lucky to hit him for 400 damage with 4k weap or spell damage....
Cool, but that's not a healer. His outgoing heals are going to be insignificant with a build like that.
Ive never seen an actual heavy armour magplar healer me and 3 other good players couldnt kill relatively quickly if he's alone. It's not a thing.
Edited by Valencer on November 2, 2017 6:57PM1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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When you see the same groups together repeatedly, sometimes across multiple different days/weeks, there's not much need to message them. To be fair, there was one dude on purple that I don't recall seeing with the others before, so they may have been a 3-man.BroanBeast1215 wrote: »so did you message both teams afterward and ask if they were premades?
Oh what a useful post, thanks so much for sharing. Having 4 people in a pug BG group hitting 1m damage in a < 15 minute game is such a common occurrence, right? That just proves that we were all a bunch of talentless hacks that had no damage. It totally isn't an issue with being able to permablock, spam BoL almost the entire time that he's not CC'd, and get a little cross healing/Resto Ult anytime he starts to get low. No sir, that isn't it at all...instead it's our paltry damage numbers and overall inability to play well.If a magplar healer can out tank you and 3 other people on his own indefinitely, the problem isnt the magplar..
It's totally unreasonable to require perfect coordination of CC-through-block + 4 player burst, stacking of healing debuffs, cost poisons, etc...in order to kill one healer in a PvP system that's not built entirely on premade-vs-premade groups in a matchmaking/rating system. And even if we had such a system, it'd be exceedingly obnoxious when one can rezz in <= 20 seconds every time.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It seems like the fact that the other team was coordinated in roles and strategy, and that they stuck together, was what caused them to win. I doubt that one member of their team permablocking really made that much difference.
Keep in mind that to actually permablock you have to:
- Use sword and shield, giving up damage and healing of other weapons
- Use many sturdy pieces, giving up infused, divines, impen
- Not use light or heavy attacks, so no easy stam return
- Build for sustain, because stam regen stops while blocking
- Not use anything with a cast time or channel (many Templar skills)
- Minimize bar swaps, as this drops block
Even with all these sacrifices, many CC's go through block and allow the enemy to time a burst against you. Sustain poisons and CP are also an effective counter. With a coordinated team of 4, no build is invincible. It sounds like the main problem was the pug group.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe the juicy stuff came at the end but I don't see how a tank being hard to kill is an issue. He like he killed, just not easily.
I didn't see anything about him having fabulous dps yet was a permablock tank. Just that he was a tanky tank.
Btw, the magblade heals merely by doing dps.0 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If a magplar healer can out tank you and 3 other people on his own indefinitely, the problem isnt the magplar..
The problem is sorta all of you. It's even worse when someone uses guard. The magplr permablocking is a bit of a problem and it sounds like the players up against them could have used some extra tips and tricksFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭The sources of block cost reduction are far too many is the whole issue. On a DK you have the passive that increases amount you can block, you have CP that increases the amount you can block, you have the S&B passives that increase amount you can block, you can wear 7 pieces of Sturdy armor which decreases block cost, then you can have 3 reduce block cost glyphs each of which amounts to the same cost reduction as multiple pieces of Sturdy armor. That is WAY too many sources, especially when it's being combined with Ults like Spell Wall that gives blocking for free for it's duration.
Reduce block cost glyphs need to be gone from the game entirely and or there needs to be a decrease in total reduction cost you can have just like you can't have over 30k resistances or 50% crit resist. It would be the same problem if players could stack 50k+ resistance or 90%+ crit resistance.Edited by Twohothardware on November 2, 2017 10:50PM4 -
Baconlad✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ive been trying to make light armor resto staff dps magplar in BGs work...but the lack of an extra set item is really killing me.
Equip sword and board and my survivability goes through the roof...but sustains hits the can without being able to heavy attack for magic. If you nerf blocking again though...it will hit everyone else harder than that permablocker.
Maybe a nerf to sturdy is in order, not a nerf to other means of block cost reduction. You try to nerf a impreg magplar with all sturdy and the set that goves magic back on block, you are accually nerfing the dps magplar with all no sturdy traits, whos just trying survive the two stamina dps.
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Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭WillhelmBlack wrote: »
Nah, I'm sorry but Ive NEVER run into a magplar *healer* that won't die when focused down by multiple decent players when he's alone. No perfect timing with burst and CC required either, the incoming damage from multiple good players will just overwhelm the magplar eventually.
Sure, you can run a troll tank setup with reactive and malubeth or whatever but you won't really be doing much actual healing then, and that was my point. If troll tank setups are the problem... well, maybe people should stop bringing pitchforks to every discussion where others dare suggest that heavy armour is overperforming. "Play the way you want" goes both waysEdited by Valencer on November 4, 2017 9:11AM0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »I wouldn't be so fast to blame the player for having trouble with some of these tanks...
in theory one could run 5 Reactive + 5 Fortified Brass/Armor Master + 2 Malabeth
With a Resto Staff for Lights Champion, one can stack Major + Minor Protection(Light's Champion and Templar Rune) + 35% reduction with Reactive Armor, + Major Resolve and Major Ward(Templar Rune) + Fortified/Armor Master he will nerf your damage into the ground to the point he doesn't even need to perma block, and when he does, thats where the Sword and Board ultimate comes into play...You will be lucky to hit him for 400 damage with 4k weap or spell damage....
Cool, but that's not a healer. His outgoing heals are going to be insignificant with a build like that.
Ive never seen an actual heavy armour magplar healer me and 3 other good players couldnt kill relatively quickly if he's alone. It's not a thing.
Problem isn't when he's alone. It's when there's support in place. A warden's trees or a sorc's resto ult or a DK's guard.PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you keep nerfing blocking and healing, then ESO will degrade to the point where running solo is futile. As it is, open world is super frustrating and 1vX is dead the moment someone who isn't a potato shows up.0
