You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

Problem is you had ESO staff say about a year ago that DK is for tanking, Templar is for healing and sorc is for DPS. I guess NB was for 2015.

Their "balance" updates since then have just bit by bit destroyed anything that doesn't follow along these lines.

I actually think it's just like any other company where no one knows what the other department is doing.

Maybe they should just do one class. Then nobody can complain that class A is better than class B at thing X.

Imo the lack of tanks is because tanking isn't as fun as the other roles. There's just....block and general upkeep. For an action-y game, I find I'm not terribly involved with my survivability as a tank the same way I'm involved with DPSing and healing on my other characters. If I screw up my DPS rotation, my damage output tanks (Hee) and not only is it extremely noticeable, but I can feel the lack of OOMPH. Same for healing if I screw something up. I've also found it's pretty hard to mess up being a tank (mechanics aside, but that's usually a constant across all roles)

The most fun I ever had on tanking was on my sap tank before the nerfs. I ran 22k health, heavy armor, and pretty much did my very best to do half a dps rotation and half a healer rotation without getting smashed. It was great - I could feel that my actions were really impacting my group, a big difference from just taunting everything, then holding block and trying to make sure the healer didn't even have to glance my way. My survivability and group support were very high, but could plummet and I would get smashed if I messed up.

The problem is I'm not sure how to do it in a way that doesn't break pvp. Meh.

I'm not quite sure how to put this...Hrm. I'd like my tanking to be more active, similar to how Death Knights and (IIRC) Demon Hunters in WoW compared to all the other tanks. For quite a while, DKs were spikier than the other tanks due to how they tanked, but a good DK was just lovely to watch.

TLDR tanking in pve feels very passive, send help.

Edit: I do think making other classes more fun stuff for tanking is something that can be done without breaking anything else, though I don't think it's the main problem.

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

I stole this quote from another thread because it is exactly what I have just experienced. 80 minute routine wait times for my DPS characters drove me out of desperation to just get a dungeon to roll a tank. Played MMO's for 20 years now. Played a tank in all of those games since 0 times. Me going tank is extreme. The funny thing about it is I had a blast until I figured out exactly what the bold text in the quote I posted below says. I absolutely loved my NB tank in dungeons. It was such a fun play style for tanking and with some added utility skills it would have been a permanent for me. I decided before switching to tank after researching DK tanks and having lots of experience as stam DK that I would hate the boring play style and skill options of DK tank. So I chose NB because it sounded more fun as I looked at the builds I had made for tanking. I did not do the sap tank builds although it sounded like a lot of fun everyone said they are a thing of the past now since Morrowind.

Queing instantly was amazing so once I figured out NB wasn't going to work out for end game I made a warden tank. I have now maxed him out and have decided as I suspected it is just not as fun as I had on NB. I am bored of the play style and skill choices. I'd roll a Templar and try, but it is pretty clear at this point that is not worth the effort either. I am now back in the DPS pool rolling a stam warden experimental template, but I know it will just be a matter of time before I get tired of sitting and waiting for a group for all of my allotted play time.

aeowulf wrote: »

Sap tanks are no more. They were removed with morrowind sustain changes which were targetted mostly at NB, but affected templar as well. NB can still tank in the way that yes they can wear heavy armour and yes they can taunt, but the style of tanking known as 'sap tank' is gone. They now tank in a similar fashion to other classes without providing the same amount of group healing they previously did. This was their 'group utility' and until they are given some form of group utility back, I can't see NB being anything other than sub par tanks. I am waiting to see what is done with the skill tree's for NB in this regard.

Last night I queued in finder as DPS, selecting my dungeons as Vet daily pledge, normal DLC and one other Vet dungeon. 80 mins later i logged off not having found a group. The lack of tanks in this game really needs to be addressed by ZOS. Right now there are only two end game viable tank classes, DK and warden. Anyone picking a different class to tank wth at some point realises they will not be an end game trial tank on that class or that a different class can do it significantly better. In my case, I left the 'tank pool' and now my same main NB toon fills a spot in the already overpopulated DPS pool.

And/or ZOS should probably make tanking in general more attractive so more people play tanks.

bring on the skill tree rebalancing I say!

@aeowulf

I tank on my Templar a lot. It's more fun than healing in my opinion. Though I can see why people would say Dragon Knights are the better choice for the more difficult content.

I would just play as what you enjoy the most whether they are so-called sub bar or not. It's not as if you are going to be running the most difficult content all the time. So long as you get the job done I wouldn't let it bother you. This is a video game and your first and foremost goal should be to have fun.

I see people saying "ZOS need to address the lack of tanks" etc but the reality is, most people don't want to tank. It's not about balancing. You could have all classes equally balanced towards tanking and you would *still* have 1 tank to 3 healers to 5 billion dps all queue'd at the same time.

This isn't an ESO problem, it's not even a gaming problem, it's a player mentality problem. People don't want to lead the group; all the glory, no responsibility.

Take a look at any game where players can, literally, be everything (The Secret World, I'm looking at you). To swap to a desired role is a click of the button. Guess the wait times in dungeon queue there. That's right, exactly the same. If you tank, it's insta-pop. And every single person was balanced there because everyone could choose everything.

What games need are less people afraid to lead and will just jump in anyway with no clue but are willing to learn. But sadly, after playing MMOs for some 20 or so years, the ratio between tank:heal:dps has remained constant, despite the game and whether or not it has a (balanced or imbalanced) class system.

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

If it was just chains, all other classes would be viable end game tanks as nothing important can be chained anyway.

It's also AE root for trash crowd control, it's group utility and resource management.

Niobium wrote: »

I see people saying "ZOS need to address the lack of tanks" etc but the reality is, most people don't want to tank. It's not about balancing. You could have all classes equally balanced towards tanking and you would *still* have 1 tank to 3 healers to 5 billion dps all queue'd at the same time.

Most people don't want to tank in this game because not fun. It's boring as anything on a dk or warden and ridiculously difficult on a non-dk/warden. Sap tanks were fun & easy, they have been removed. They were not even end game viable, but they were the perfect vet PUG tank. Games like these are meant to be relaxing and fun. That's why there are no tanks left. The low numbers will mean dps stop playing or fake the finder. If tanking was fun, there would be more tanks (sap tanks WERE on the rise pre morrowind because they were both easy and fun) The death blow to them was the change to leeching strikes.

I have only ever played tanks in any MMORPG since the last millenium (EQ1), until these Morrowind changes. The changes to NB stopped me tanking and I switched my main to DPS. Bare in mind thats 18 years of only ever playing tanks. If i switched, i imagine lots switced too, or quit. I know loads of people who quit, both pve guilds i am in had to suddenly look outside to fill trial spots.

Look at Deltia, he was raving about his templar tank, and then quit with the changes because it was made not viable overnight. Look at Woeler & what he says about non-dk/warden tanks. Alcast has builds for literally everything, except non-dk/warden tanks, or non-templar/warden healers.

I turned to tanking in my previous MMO because after a decade as a high end raid healer I got sick of tanks dumb as door nails. I knew how to do their job better than them, so I did it. The thing was that there were interesting tanking gimmicks and classes dedicated to tanking in that game that made it enjoyable to pick up.

ESO just kind of lacks 'fun' tanking, in my opinion. Because class identity is pretty weak, and role identity is ambiguous at best, there's not really a definitive tank that stands out and makes me say "Yeah, I wanna play THAT!" It's just... a slightly different build of whatever I've already got, and I've already got a build so why change it? There's no incentive, it's not particularly enjoyable, and the tank is the first to get yelled at when it all hits the fan. Why subject myself to the abuse if it's not fun?

Most of my healers end up tanking in pugs anyway

Falls back to the whole pve\pvp thing. They buff other classes to tank and suddenly pvp people are screaming that class X can not be killed while they mow through hordes of other players. Literally every single balance in this game is because they can't/won't balance the 2 seperately.

Also, dungeon tanking on a dk is the single most easy class to play. If half the folks who sat in Q knew how easy it was to tank then we'd have more tanks than anything else. You can literally use any combination of heavy armor in game and as long as you throw on a self heal and use a sword&board all you have to worry about is keeping aggro. There's maybe a handful of fights (vet dungeons not trials) where if you have a bad group that you may have to actualy fire up your brain.

My only issue with tanks in this game (and everyone is going to say "duh") is that they contribute almost 0 DPS. When I queue random I often end up with low DPS DPSers, which makes matters worse since I then really feel like I'm not contributing, since I then have to whack away at mobs for a couple minutes watching their health bar not move.

Tonturri wrote: »

Imo the lack of tanks is because tanking isn't as fun as the other roles. There's just....block and general upkeep. For an action-y game, I find I'm not terribly involved with my survivability as a tank the same way I'm involved with DPSing and healing on my other characters. If I screw up my DPS rotation, my damage output tanks (Hee) and not only is it extremely noticeable, but I can feel the lack of OOMPH. Same for healing if I screw something up. I've also found it's pretty hard to mess up being a tank (mechanics aside, but that's usually a constant across all roles)

The most fun I ever had on tanking was on my sap tank before the nerfs. I ran 22k health, heavy armor, and pretty much did my very best to do half a dps rotation and half a healer rotation without getting smashed. It was great - I could feel that my actions were really impacting my group, a big difference from just taunting everything, then holding block and trying to make sure the healer didn't even have to glance my way. My survivability and group support were very high, but could plummet and I would get smashed if I messed up.

The problem is I'm not sure how to do it in a way that doesn't break pvp. Meh.

I'm not quite sure how to put this...Hrm. I'd like my tanking to be more active, similar to how Death Knights and (IIRC) Demon Hunters in WoW compared to all the other tanks. For quite a while, DKs were spikier than the other tanks due to how they tanked, but a good DK was just lovely to watch.

TLDR tanking in pve feels very passive, send help.

Edit: I do think making other classes more fun stuff for tanking is something that can be done without breaking anything else, though I don't think it's the main problem.

Kind of agree to a degree. Main problem IMO is that the player base is far less forgiving of bad tanks (and heals to a lesser degree) than bad dps. This is understandable but makes queing as those roles when you're a newb intimidating. Moral: be nice to inexperienced tanks(and lesser degree heals [as someone who loves heals, this is the easiest mmo to play heals I've experienced so im a tad less forgiving there])

I have a Magicka Warden tank that is a lot of fun. Especially now that I can lay down 3 portals at a time. I still prefer my DK tank for straight forward tanking, but I think the Warden tank is pretty viable.

Nightblade/Templar/Sorcerer tanks need a way to bring in trash, and support the group a little better in order to be considered viable tanks.

What I would like to see happen:

Nightblades:

Dark Shades attacks teleport enemies to the player (dark shades target in-combat enemies furthest from the player). (Shadow Image morph stays the same and allows player to teleport).
Remove the "Low Health" requirement on Consuming Darkness synergy.
Add Synergy to Refreshing path that shields allies standing in it for 6 seconds for X% of their max health.

Templars:

Radiant Ward - (in addition to what it already does) suns rays pull in enemies that attack while shield is up. 1 second Cool Down.

Sorcerers:

Daedric Tomb - Mines also teleport enemies to player upon activation.
Crystal Blast - Make instant cast, lower damage, add effect to shield ally closest to targeted enemy for x% of max health.

I think that would add an element that would make each class have something special to offer as a tank instead of feeling like I am trying to put a square peg in a round hole when I try to tank with anything that is not a DK.