PVP: Breaking ZOS' myth "Heavy Armor’s main advantage is its increase to survivability"

EnOeZ · October 2017

Quote from ClockWork City Natch Potes:
"
Wrath: This passive ability has been replaced with the Revitalize passive, which increases the resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 12/25%.
Rapid Mending: This passive ability no longer increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore, as that effect has been moved to the new Revitalize passive. It continues to increase your healing received by 4/8%.
Developer Comment:
Spoilerhide
We want each of the three armor types to have unique trade-offs. Heavy Armor’s main advantage is its increase to survivability, while the disadvantage is its lower damage and healing power. To emphasize this distinction, we’ve removed the Wrath passive.
"

PVP is NOT PVE
Everyone agrees ?

What defines then PVP survivability ?
Would everyone agree that it is the ability to stay alive, whatever the mean ?

How to stay alive in TESO then ?

Stay and Block damage (PVE-style, ZOS-logic Style)
Roll dodge (medium armor style)
Heal through Damage (Healer Style, the "Wrath" change is also a nerf to healing)
Shield through (Magicka Sorc Style)
Clever positioning and re-positioning (Teleporting Sorcs Style, Ranger Archer Style)
Not running out of resources (Resource build style, not accessible to HA anymore, but still available to LA and MA)
Speed (sprint style + some class abilities like Warden + some Weapon abilities like DW + some gear like "Coward's Gear")
Become untargetable (Nightblade style, vanishing in the shadows)
Evasion (medium armor + some abilities in NB and Warden)
Mitigation (resistances, including crit resistance "specialty" of Shield stakers since bubble = no crit to worry about, LA style)
A combination of everything above of course (but let's not count this as a "true" 11th)

So on the 10 ways to stay alive in TESO, 1 is at pure Heavy Armor advantage... 1.

If one want to be very survivable in Cyrodiil, he/she should NOT slot Heavy Armor at all, except if they play in zerg and/or with a healbot to stand still in the middle of fights like in PVE.
Being survivable is not relying only on passive measures (like armor).

In fact being truly survivable in Cyrodiil consist of having at one's disposal the maximum number of options to evade/ignore/mitigate damage/deflect incoming damage. In fact, like in any fight DAMAGE itself is a much better defensive option since with enough damage your opponent will have to play defensively de facto reducing greatly your own incoming damage.

I would like ZOS combat developer in charge of Heavy Armor to review it's copy. NO Heavy Armor is currently NOT THE BEST OPTION for survivability in Cyrodiil.
Passive survivability is tenfold inferior to active survivability. With less resource and now (thanks to the absurd Wrath Nerf) No damage component at all, HEAVY ARMOR is simply the worst option by far for Cyrodiil active and smart Survivability (points 2 to 10 are not accessible or not specific to HA).

This Wrath change and comment is PVE biaised.
Let's wish one day there is a visionary PVP developer at Zenimax to understand HA combat specifics and needs and make it desirable and enjoyable one day.

Bring back original built-in block cost
Bring back Wrath (it takes so much time to build up, do not listen to youtubers who compares it misleadingly to MA Agility passive straight)
Build In Heavy Attack Damage (additional +25%)
Build In Counter CCs features (-25% duration on all debuffs including CCs and dots)
Build in "Second Wind" like passive (+6% health, magicka and stamina over 6 sec after incurring hard CC)
Or massively boost HA passive mitigation through armor rating (least fun option)

Any of this will do.

Run the stats, publish the stats @ZOS...
Out of Zergs, HA does NOT survive longer than LA and MA users in Cyrodiil.

Once again (stated it in numerous threads):
Active defense > Passive defense (we agree ?)
Moving, repositioning > Standing still (still agree ? Therefore...)
LA, MA > HA even for survivability (except if you like standing still ofc like a harmless flowerpot in hell)

CQFD*.
(*What was meant to be demonstrated in French)

deepseamk20b14_ESO · October 2017

Then why the meta? If HA wasnt offering so much then why was everyone in it? I mean, it’s just a question as I only wear medium armor, regardless of how bad people say it is.

Honestly, I think HA wasn’t/isn’t the issue, it’s how well certain classes synergizes with it and the sets associated with it that had people going to it in droves.

I also don’t think the wrath nerf is a big deal. 200 weapon damage is small and is barely even noticeable. Damage wise it’s like having an attack that hits for 10k on tool tip now hitting for 9.7k. Really not game changing. Plus it takes awhile for wrath to stack. If they didn’t die in the process of stacking wrath chances are they didn’t need it to begin with. So on the flip side of that, knowing it’s not that big of a deal in PvP, why remove wrath?

There are also all the popular sets HA has available that give it the ability to be defensive and also very offensive.

TLDR, I don’t think they really needed to remove wrath as I don’t feel it makes such a big, game breaking difference, by having it. Some classes work extremely well with HA and HA isn’t the issue it’s the class and available armor sets that give HA a so called “edge”.

At least this is what I’ve gathered from reading post after post about it.

Waffennacht · October 2017

Some of the most offensive oriented sets come in heavy

500-750 added weapon damage without cool down, provides far more weapon damage than any other set consistently.

The removal of wrath just served to hurt builds not running seventh Legion/ Fury etc

Then the passive heal gains and return of resources on hit add to the above

Try using Guile and Plague Doctor, suddenly your HA does 0 damage, you struggle to maintain resources and have 0 Evasion. Clearly HA Passives are not the cause (because then Guile Doctor would perform just as well)

Again, ZoS misses the main point.

HA is popular not because of the Passives necessarily, but the available sets.

OP is absolutely right in what makes a good PvP build. Damage to get the opponent defensive, Block is the most powerful mitigation tool - not roll dodge, nor shields (though superior to roll dodge in 1v1 now)

It won't address the issues, just like the block cost change

Anti_Virus · October 2017

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Then why the meta? If HA wasnt offering so much then why was everyone in it? I mean, it’s just a question as I only wear medium armor, regardless of how bad people say it is.

Honestly, I think HA wasn’t/isn’t the issue, it’s how well certain classes synergizes with it and the sets associated with it that had people going to it in droves.

I also don’t think the wrath nerf is a big deal. 200 weapon damage is small and is barely even noticeable. Damage wise it’s like having an attack that hits for 10k on tool tip now hitting for 9.7k. Really not game changing. Plus it takes awhile for wrath to stack. If they didn’t die in the process of stacking wrath chances are they didn’t need it to begin with. So on the flip side of that, knowing it’s not that big of a deal in PvP, why remove wrath?

There are also all the popular sets HA has available that give it the ability to be defensive and also very offensive.

TLDR, I don’t think they really needed to remove wrath as I don’t feel it makes such a big, game breaking difference, by having it. Some classes work extremely well with HA and HA isn’t the issue it’s the class and available armor sets that give HA a so called “edge”.

At least this is what I’ve gathered from reading post after post about it.

That's a lie.

Lexxypwns · October 2017

Heavy is finally looking balanced. It has superior itemization but inferior passives. Now if we can just add a cooldown to fix 7th legion. I don't want to cheese it, but I swear I'm going to if its not patched by the end of the week

ak_pvp · October 2017

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Then why the meta? If HA wasnt offering so much then why was everyone in it? I mean, it’s just a question as I only wear medium armor, regardless of how bad people say it is.

Honestly, I think HA wasn’t/isn’t the issue, it’s how well certain classes synergizes with it and the sets associated with it that had people going to it in droves.

I also don’t think the wrath nerf is a big deal. 200 weapon damage is small and is barely even noticeable. Damage wise it’s like having an attack that hits for 10k on tool tip now hitting for 9.7k. Really not game changing. Plus it takes awhile for wrath to stack. If they didn’t die in the process of stacking wrath chances are they didn’t need it to begin with. So on the flip side of that, knowing it’s not that big of a deal in PvP, why remove wrath?

There are also all the popular sets HA has available that give it the ability to be defensive and also very offensive.

TLDR, I don’t think they really needed to remove wrath as I don’t feel it makes such a big, game breaking difference, by having it. Some classes work extremely well with HA and HA isn’t the issue it’s the class and available armor sets that give HA a so called “edge”.

At least this is what I’ve gathered from reading post after post about it.

Because the strongest offense sets are in heavy. And the med passives suck, (speed, detection? Limited use) so most stam were better off in heavy. Other things like CP and permablock ended up with the TTK hell we have. Calling it a HA meta is stupid.

Even sets like black rose weren't that strong. I mean in 5/1/1 it was 180 regen and 149 damage. Not OP by any means. The regen could increase in 7 heavy, but at the cost of 4% or ALL resources.

The first thing people see when killed is HA, or blackrose, and call for nerfs to it. Without seeing the underlying problem that stacked up to the player.

SanTii.92 · October 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Again, ZoS misses the main point.

If they would have nerfed 200 weapon dmge from fury and seventh legion instead of replacing wrath we would be at the same spot we are now. Guile and Plague Doctor builds will still do about no dmge, and offensive heavy armor sets will remain literally the same. Fail to see how that would be better?

idk · October 2017

Using OPs logic I can only see stamina in medium armo for PvP since it's so much more beneficial and someone with a mere 2k weapon damage already gets a bonus of 200+ WD. O.

Decreased dodge cost. Access to evasion. So if HA itself offered such little damage resistance in pvp, why did players use it?

Minno · October 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Heavy is finally looking balanced. It has superior itemization but inferior passives. Now if we can just add a cooldown to fix 7th legion. I don't want to cheese it, but I swear I'm going to if its not patched by the end of the week

Agreed. Most players looked at the wraith dmg as blah, but in some cases it completely gave equal to numbers as running 1pc kena.

Now they need to change some of the MA sets to grant better utility, and it might be a good patch for balance. But we have to wait and see.

ak_pvp · October 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Again, ZoS misses the main point.

If they would have nerfed 200 weapon dmge from fury and seventh legion instead of replacing wrath we would be at the same spot we are now. Guile and Plague Doctor builds will still do about no dmge, and offensive heavy armor sets will remain literally the same. Fail to see how that would be better?

It wouldn't *** over those who use other setups?

I.e. shackle etc.

EnOeZ · October 2017

@deepseamk20b14_ESO if "200 weapon damage is small and is barely noticeable", just take off 2 damage glyphs of your characters. Sadly your computations are only corrects for unbuffed light attacks. 200 WD translates into much more than 200 damage...

I would post numbers if update was not still downloading for me...

200 WD less, you realize it's almost taking out the entire 5th piece bonus of Hunding's Rage right ? Like also not turning your CP160 wepon gold... It's a Huge deal ! And it is a nerf in damage AND in heal...

You realize also that today HA loses an entire passive: Wrath has been completely deleted in fact since what it has become is a split of rapid Mending. You realize also it comes after killing the Constitution passive of HA resources a couple of patches ago (I personnaly went form 1800 with Black Rose 7HA to 511 now with 5HA cause it is less ineffective to mix in 2MA now (cost reduction from MA especially).

You say HA is META, I read it, I heard it, same for the Loch Ness, doesn't make it true.

EnOeZ · October 2017

idk wrote: »

Using OPs logic I can only see stamina in medium armo for PvP since it's so much more beneficial and someone with a mere 2k weapon damage already gets a bonus of 200+ WD. O.

Decreased dodge cost. Access to evasion. So if HA itself offered such little damage resistance in pvp, why did players use it?

Because of Zergs.

When zerging you have access to incoming heals (boosted by HA) + your strain on resources (and skill) is much lower => you have less need for sustain AND you have access to sustain mechanisms (like Templar spears).

You have your answer.

EnOeZ · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Heavy is finally looking balanced. It has superior itemization but inferior passives. Now if we can just add a cooldown to fix 7th legion. I don't want to cheese it, but I swear I'm going to if its not patched by the end of the week

Agreed. Most players looked at the wraith dmg as blah, but in some cases it completely gave equal to numbers as running 1pc kena.

Now they need to change some of the MA sets to grant better utility, and it might be a good patch for balance. But we have to wait and see.

Let me guess the armor you are wearing...
Biaised answer.

idk · October 2017

EnOeZ wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Using OPs logic I can only see stamina in medium armo for PvP since it's so much more beneficial and someone with a mere 2k weapon damage already gets a bonus of 200+ WD. O.

Decreased dodge cost. Access to evasion. So if HA itself offered such little damage resistance in pvp, why did players use it?

Because of Zergs.

When zerging you have access to incoming heals (boosted by HA) + your strain on resources (and skill) is much lower => you have less need for sustain AND you have access to sustain mechanisms (like Templar spears).

You have your answer.

With that explanation most of OPs list is irrelevant. Especially the change recently made since that little bit of extra WD/SD is not that important in a zerg, especially if skill is not that important, and HA still keeps it's healing received benefit.

However, there have been a great many players wearing HA when HA did not add any weapon damage so it will continue. The real issue is we lost something in HA passives that was not replaced. When the WD passives was removed something was added to the passives, iirc, then when Wrath WD/SD was added block cost reduction was removed. This time Zos just removed.

VaranisArano · October 2017

In a game where ZOS...
A. is committed to balancing PVE and PVP together
B. wants players to use different gear sets for different roles
C. has a pronounced tendency to target the most widely used "meta" sets, skills, classes
D. has recently been trying to adjust PVP stuff without changing too much in PVE

...Is anyone really that surprised that the heavy armor meta in PVP took some hard nerfs that leave PVE applications of heavy armor largely unscathed?

But looking at the bigger picture...
Of the two heavy armor "meta" nerfs this patch, that being Wrath passive in PVP and the loss of shuffle from Tava's Blessing in PVE, both of those were established "meta" builds in their playstyle which will require players to adjust and get new gear - which they must play the game in order to get.
That's the ultimate reason why ZOS keeps continually nerfing any gear or skill that's too widely used. If they nerf it, players who care about having the best stuff will grind and play the game more in order to get the best stuff. More hours of grinding = more hours of gameplay = happy ZOS.

Malic · October 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

In a game where ZOS...
A. is committed to balancing PVE and PVP together
B. wants players to use different gear sets for different roles
C. has a pronounced tendency to target the most widely used "meta" sets, skills, classes
D. has recently been trying to adjust PVP stuff without changing too much in PVE

...Is anyone really that surprised that the heavy armor meta in PVP took some hard nerfs that leave PVE applications of heavy armor largely unscathed?

But looking at the bigger picture...
Of the two heavy armor "meta" nerfs this patch, that being Wrath passive in PVP and the loss of shuffle from Tava's Blessing in PVE, both of those were established "meta" builds in their playstyle which will require players to adjust and get new gear - which they must play the game in order to get.
That's the ultimate reason why ZOS keeps continually nerfing any gear or skill that's too widely used. If they nerf it, players who care about having the best stuff will grind and play the game more in order to get the best stuff. More hours of grinding = more hours of gameplay = happy ZOS.

No im not surprised it took nerfs but that doesnt equate to it was a necessary end.

The issue I have is perception, is HA over performing or MA and LA under performing?

The adjustment to shuffle is a perfect example. You enjoyed the benefits in any armor config, now its a med armor buff which is where it always should have been. Remember why we got wrath buffed in the first place because there was literally no use for HA at all, IN PVP. But the shuffle adjustment wasnt enough, meaning you still get major evasion by using it, which should have been nerfed to 15 seconds for no med armor and an additional 2 seconds per med armor piece.

Thats a hypothetical unresearched example but the point is the other lines could have been buffed a long time ago. ZOS, sadly has a few short coming when it comes to balance and one of them is over compensating for feedback. No one could reasonably argue that HA wasnt BIS for most pvp builds, but you could argue that it was because the other sets needed buffs.

Few did that, they screamed for nerfs so here we are. Shuffle has been the root of the HA problem for a long time, its a potent skill and until today you enjoyed fully in 7 impen HA (if you wanted). LA is actually in a pretty good spot harness magicka is pretty good.

The problem with LA is it gets exposed without CP buffs to physical resist or direct damage resist. So in NO CP campaigns youre pretty much forced to spam shields which isnt horrible but your forced into a playstyle. The buff to LA I would have loved to see would be a harness magicka morph that allows you to absorb phys damage, buffed with CP but penalized for stacking.

Anyway, the other armor lines needed a buff, wrath was OP because it as stacking with fury sets so you could take damage, while increasing your weap damage. Its counter intuitive to what armor should be doing. Meaning you take damage you armor should be DECREASING in viability it was just the opposite.

Why this is troubling is this is a similar issue we had with the black rose meta. And what it really means is the same issues keep popping up because ZOS doesnt seem to understand the stacking effect of sets, cp and passives IN PVP. I see most of this as a pvp only issue, and its been glaring. To their credit ZOS doesnt seem to be making any bones about the fact they are committed to a PVE game but PVP players are always going to find the strongest combo's, its up to the devs to allow that but allow counters via other armor lines.

In that they failed, they took the easy way and out and listened to the mob again. Save for shuffle, thats actually a glimmer of hope.

Maryal · October 2017

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I refuse to wear HA ... makes me look tooo fat!

VaranisArano · October 2017

Malic wrote: »

No im not surprised it took nerfs but that doesnt equate to it was a necessary end.

In my opinion, the necessary end for which the nerf happened has nothing to do with PVP so to say and has everything to do with what ZOS has shown a willingness to do again and again. ZOS will nerf anything that is too widely used because that forces players to grind for new gear in order to stay "meta" or stay competitive. Players grinding for gear = players playing the game = more play hours = happy ZOS.

That it makes players unhappy or doesn't accomplish its stated goal in PVP or wasn't actually necessary doesn't matter. The real goal is that players continue to play the game, and if ZOS must accomplish that by forcing players to grind in order to stay on top (that way they don't stay satisfied with a build, get bored, and leave the game), that's how they'll do it.

Betsararie · October 2017

I disagree with the removal of the wrath passive too but to say the best defensive capabilities didn't directly result from heavy armor is just beyond absurd. Ludicrous

Ragnarock41 · October 2017

Heavy armor is fine.
No more nerfs needed or you're back to the times where tanks used medium armor.

Xinthisis · October 2017

Heavy armor will remain meta as long as no matter how good you are as a player you will still take more damage then you can mitigate through skillful tactics such as dodging, healing, etc. So many attacks are undodgeable, unblockable, and you're almost perma snared now and heal debuffed it's pointless to try and rely on the weapon damage, dodge chance, and mobility of medium armor. Why build around mobility of sprint if you're just going to be 70% snare spammed from gap closers anyway with or without shuffle up? Zos has made a bunch of good balance changes overall lately, but I get weary at about this point of the balancing act because historically it's when they fall off one side or the other. It's the removal of counter play that date's back to the removal of interuptable heavy attacks that is paving the way forward.

@ZOS_RichLambert 30% major snare, 15% minor snare, all snares in game reduced in overall time to max of 5 secs. Also, give medium armor sets like fury and seventh while giving heavy armor sets like barkskin and twin sisters. The reason people run heavy is that you could get if not more damage, very similar damage to medium armor builds with more resists to the damage that can't be avoided. 200 wd on wrath is nice to have, but it comes down to what kills people in cyrodiil and that is non counterplay abilities. Bring back counterplay and you'll see people more willing to use higher risk, higher reward setups involving medium armor. You guys are so close, don't fall off again like you did in 1.3, 2.1, and 2.3.

Eyesinthedrk · October 2017

No one is upset because HA is showing up on a death recap. What everyone is sick of is chasing that last guy around a rock and hitting him for *129 damage. The whole group spends 3 times longer killing this last guy than we did killing the rest of his group.

We could ignore him, but then he’d just res everyone we killed. So we are stuck hitting him for *129 and watching him BoL or vigor back to full health over and over again.

This is coming from someone that lived in pvp for the first year I played. But now, because of the heavy armor meta, the bomb blade builds and proc sets, I’d rather queue up for pug DLC dungeons than go into cyrodiil.

Will the wrath passive change this? Probably not, but it’s a first step in the right direction and I’ll take baby steps over another year of chase the tank around a tree, with no end in sight.

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2017

Malic wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

In a game where ZOS...
A. is committed to balancing PVE and PVP together
B. wants players to use different gear sets for different roles
C. has a pronounced tendency to target the most widely used "meta" sets, skills, classes
D. has recently been trying to adjust PVP stuff without changing too much in PVE

...Is anyone really that surprised that the heavy armor meta in PVP took some hard nerfs that leave PVE applications of heavy armor largely unscathed?

But looking at the bigger picture...
Of the two heavy armor "meta" nerfs this patch, that being Wrath passive in PVP and the loss of shuffle from Tava's Blessing in PVE, both of those were established "meta" builds in their playstyle which will require players to adjust and get new gear - which they must play the game in order to get.
That's the ultimate reason why ZOS keeps continually nerfing any gear or skill that's too widely used. If they nerf it, players who care about having the best stuff will grind and play the game more in order to get the best stuff. More hours of grinding = more hours of gameplay = happy ZOS.

Anyway, the other armor lines needed a buff, wrath was OP because it as stacking with fury sets so you could take damage, while increasing your weap damage. Its counter intuitive to what armor should be doing. Meaning you take damage you armor should be DECREASING in viability it was just the opposite.

Why this is troubling is this is a similar issue we had with the black rose meta. And what it really means is the same issues keep popping up because ZOS doesnt seem to understand the stacking effect of sets, cp and passives IN PVP. I see most of this as a pvp only issue, and its been glaring. To their credit ZOS doesnt seem to be making any bones about the fact they are committed to a PVE game but PVP players are always going to find the strongest combo's, its up to the devs to allow that but allow counters via other armor lines.

In that they failed, they took the easy way and out and listened to the mob again. Save for shuffle, thats actually a glimmer of hope.

What? Wasn't it the idea of HA to outlast? To have a kind of berserker playstyle that get's better while taking damage? Wrath and Constitution served that concept very well. Also 200 weapon dmg were easily outperformed by MA passives above around 2k base weapon dmg, not so high IMO. I might look up how high this number is exactly.

However, you also say that "wrath was OP because it as stacking with fury sets". So HA Fury builds were OP, right? Then why nerf every HA build with removing wrath? Was heavy shacklebreaker an issue? Wouldn't it has been better to reduce how much dmg some sets (like fury) grant?

On the shuffle change: when HA is about survival, in a game where blocking, healing and LoS are most effective tools for, why does HA grant no block cost reduction and why are they forced into using 2h (an offensive weapon) but also presented with the hard choice to either have a burst heal or being able to reliably LoS?
Is it to make a distinct difference between mobile medium armor and survivability in heavy? Then why did ZOS state "Heavy Armor’s main advantage is its increase to survivability, while the disadvantage is its lower damage and healing power." That healing part doesn't even make sense in that context. This whole change also might gives incentive to run retreating maneuver, but that grants a lot of mobility. So what now?

deepseamk20b14_ESO · October 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Then why the meta? If HA wasnt offering so much then why was everyone in it? I mean, it’s just a question as I only wear medium armor, regardless of how bad people say it is.

Honestly, I think HA wasn’t/isn’t the issue, it’s how well certain classes synergizes with it and the sets associated with it that had people going to it in droves.

I also don’t think the wrath nerf is a big deal. 200 weapon damage is small and is barely even noticeable. Damage wise it’s like having an attack that hits for 10k on tool tip now hitting for 9.7k. Really not game changing. Plus it takes awhile for wrath to stack. If they didn’t die in the process of stacking wrath chances are they didn’t need it to begin with. So on the flip side of that, knowing it’s not that big of a deal in PvP, why remove wrath?

There are also all the popular sets HA has available that give it the ability to be defensive and also very offensive.

TLDR, I don’t think they really needed to remove wrath as I don’t feel it makes such a big, game breaking difference, by having it. Some classes work extremely well with HA and HA isn’t the issue it’s the class and available armor sets that give HA a so called “edge”.

At least this is what I’ve gathered from reading post after post about it.

Because the strongest offense sets are in heavy. And the med passives suck, (speed, detection? Limited use) so most stam were better off in heavy. Other things like CP and permablock ended up with the TTK hell we have. Calling it a HA meta is stupid.

Even sets like black rose weren't that strong. I mean in 5/1/1 it was 180 regen and 149 damage. Not OP by any means. The regen could increase in 7 heavy, but at the cost of 4% or ALL resources.

The first thing people see when killed is HA, or blackrose, and call for nerfs to it. Without seeing the underlying problem that stacked up to the player.

I’m saying it with some sarcasm. As I said, I use medium and have only touched heavy for a small amount of time and I prefer medium. People have been calling out “HA meta” for months now, so I said it to get people’s answers, as I asked a question, rather than a statement.

EnOeZ wrote: »

@deepseamk20b14_ESO if "200 weapon damage is small and is barely noticeable", just take off 2 damage glyphs of your characters. Sadly your computations are only corrects for unbuffed light attacks. 200 WD translates into much more than 200 damage...

I would post numbers if update was not still downloading for me...

200 WD less, you realize it's almost taking out the entire 5th piece bonus of Hunding's Rage right ? Like also not turning your CP160 wepon gold... It's a Huge deal ! And it is a nerf in damage AND in heal...

You realize also that today HA loses an entire passive: Wrath has been completely deleted in fact since what it has become is a split of rapid Mending. You realize also it comes after killing the Constitution passive of HA resources a couple of patches ago (I personnaly went form 1800 with Black Rose 7HA to 511 now with 5HA cause it is less ineffective to mix in 2MA now (cost reduction from MA especially).

You say HA is META, I read it, I heard it, same for the Loch Ness, doesn't make it true.

Using your argument, It’s almost a 5pc bonus....except you already get a five piece bonus...so you’re effectively asking for two 5 pc bonuses and think that’s even when there is no trade off?

Now, if you didn’t get a 5 piece bonus from the armor you are wearing perhaps that argument would be valid. But consider something like ravager or fury their numbers dwarf the wrath passive.

Again, as I was playing devils advocate and even stated in my TL/DR section, I think the removal of the wrath passive as we knew it was not needed. I will also reiterate, HA was never the problem, it’s how some classes and their passives fit overly well with it. If anything it’s a class balance issue. That being said, I still don’t see any reason for any nerfs anywhere at this point in time.

SugaComa · October 2017

The problem with heavy armour for me is heavy armour should be cumbersome it should be slow it should have something on it that while it allows you to stack stamina so you can hit like a truck it should also protect against being hit like a truck

Problem is the game offers nothing in the way of weight

Players in heavy armour should be made slower, and certainly should see them building magicka builds utilising graveyard armour and zipping around at speeds to that of a lycra wearing sprinter which is what was happening

Armour should be weighted and more weight you add the slower you get ... But the added weight should offer more physical protection reducing all physical damage type but not magic damage

Light armour should offer spell resistance with all magic style abilities you could also use light armour to build swift moving high stamina glass cannon builds

While medium armour should offer a balance of reduced physical and magical damage but not to the degrees of light on magic or heavy on physical

TLDR
switching from all light to all heavy with only 10k stamina should have me almost come to a stop not still run around like I'm wearing my pyjamas

WillhelmBlack · October 2017

tl;dr

You're wrong though.

Minno · October 2017

EnOeZ wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Heavy is finally looking balanced. It has superior itemization but inferior passives. Now if we can just add a cooldown to fix 7th legion. I don't want to cheese it, but I swear I'm going to if its not patched by the end of the week

Agreed. Most players looked at the wraith dmg as blah, but in some cases it completely gave equal to numbers as running 1pc kena.

Now they need to change some of the MA sets to grant better utility, and it might be a good patch for balance. But we have to wait and see.

Let me guess the armor you are wearing...
Biaised answer.

High mitigation LA; I've found LA users could gain similar defense without HA but superior DMG stats.

But that doesn't distract from the fact MA users are plagued by inferior sets to HA sets. It would be a good change to review the MA sets to see what they can change to bring MA a little bit closer to LA and Stam HA.

HA dmg passive was a small part and with the armor skills locked, this means HA users have to get a bit creative and possibly no longer can choose healing, dmg and tankiness all at once.

lucky_Sage · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Heavy is finally looking balanced. It has superior itemization but inferior passives. Now if we can just add a cooldown to fix 7th legion. I don't want to cheese it, but I swear I'm going to if its not patched by the end of the week

Agreed. Most players looked at the wraith dmg as blah, but in some cases it completely gave equal to numbers as running 1pc kena.

Now they need to change some of the MA sets to grant better utility, and it might be a good patch for balance. But we have to wait and see.

Let me guess the armor you are wearing...
Biaised answer.

High mitigation LA; I've found LA users could gain similar defense without HA but superior DMG stats.

But that doesn't distract from the fact MA users are plagued by inferior sets to HA sets. It would be a good change to review the MA sets to see what they can change to bring MA a little bit closer to LA and Stam HA.

HA dmg passive was a small part and with the armor skills locked, this means HA users have to get a bit creative and possibly no longer can choose healing, dmg and tankiness all at once.

the same thing to HA mag builds to HA stam builds, the problem isn't mag build running HA is it the stam armor sets for HA and its only a few those sets need balanced

VaranisArano · October 2017

SugaComa wrote: »

The problem with heavy armour for me is heavy armour should be cumbersome it should be slow it should have something on it that while it allows you to stack stamina so you can hit like a truck it should also protect against being hit like a truck

Problem is the game offers nothing in the way of weight

Players in heavy armour should be made slower, and certainly should see them building magicka builds utilising graveyard armour and zipping around at speeds to that of a lycra wearing sprinter which is what was happening

Armour should be weighted and more weight you add the slower you get ... But the added weight should offer more physical protection reducing all physical damage type but not magic damage

TLDR
switching from all light to all heavy with only 10k stamina should have me almost come to a stop not still run around like I'm wearing my pyjamas

Strangely enough, that's how my MagDK tank feels like when she's jogging behind all those speedy stamDPS players who just want the dungeon over with in the least amount of time possible.

On a more historical note, heavy armor is not quite as cumbersome as you seem to think it is. Knights in plate armor could be quite athletic and move surprisingly quickly. That's because armor of any type was designed for people to move and fight in it, and you can't move and fight well if your armor is weighing you down too much.

In a nod towards game design, if you want to move slower, that's on you. There's a walk toggle that you can use when you use heavy armor. Alternatively, may I suggest you play TES III: Morrowind where you can enjoy the experience of traveling at a crawl until you raise your speed stat? This game lets you move at a speed that is pretty well balanced with how far you have to travel between areas so that it doesn't feel like you can't get anywhere.

Finally, if it really bothers you, consider that a player sprinting in heavy armor will either be out of stamina soon or has invested enough points into stamina to make the sprinting believable. (Tip: don't let your immersion be the reason you suggest nerfing other players when it comes to something essential to exploring the game.)

Dragath · October 2017

i agree that heavy armor should be about survivability, but they would have to change armor passives AND sets.
reduce the damage HA sets can do, compensate with more defensive stats and better HA passives.
medium armor as "the" stamina armor.
light armor as "the" magicka armor.
they made a mistake when giving some of the best damage sets to HA, instead of MA.

Ragnarock41 · October 2017

All those magsorcs and stamblades are running heavy for sure, I swear they all run heavy armor.